By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 12:16 pm:

OK, time to educate the uneducated (me).
One of my favorite songs is the '69 version of "Oh, What A Night" (The Dells), especially that layered opening, starting with the bass and the guitar sting, the piano joining in, then the organ, with the strings under the spoken open, with the build to the song. We talk about writers and artists, but what I don't completely understand is how does this come together? Does the writer, producer, group or orchestra leader have an idea of how the song should sound, or does an arranger come in to pull a gem like this together? I can understand how a rock band records, they're mostly set pieces. But a vocal group? It's got to be a fairly complex process.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

Doug,
for the most part it is generally a collaberation between producer and arranger. However if you are fortunate enough to have very good musicians such a the Funks or MFSB in the house, you never know what they might come up with on the spot.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 12:47 pm:

Ralph....
....so there is an actual "arranger" involved who, for example, places and arranges the strings or horns, or the like, right? I would then assume he rights the charts for the DSO pleyers behind "What Does It Take..." (Jr. Walker).
Producer has the final say, though, right?

By Eli (141.151.56.121) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 01:10 pm:

Eli here,

What usualy happened with us was that the rhythm section layed down the skeleton so to speak with a lot of the figures already in place and then the "arranger" i.e. the person who actually wrote the "sweetening", the strings , horns and any additional music other than rhythm.
Sometimes the arranger was the producer as was Thom Bell, Norman Harris and myself and sometimes we as producers would farm out our stuff for another slant on the sweetening or just due to the sheer volume of stuff we were doing at the time.
We also used copyists who "copied" the individual parts from the master score for each respective instrument.
We could have done it ourselves but it is tedious work and that is why they get god moey for being copyists.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 01:19 pm:

Douglas,

My understanding of the process is this.

In the case of a vocal group who don't write
- which excludes the Dells - the writer will supply the basic arrangement, a skeleton framework. The producer will have his own idea of how he "hears" the finished product and assigns
an arranger to flesh out the arrangement. The arranger will write srings and horn parts, extra guitar lines, keyboard parts etc. which is
then, I'd imagine, played by the studio musicians
so the producer can hear what it sounds like.
If he likes the arrangement then they proceed
to sorting out the vocal backgrounds which will either come from the group itself or be suggested by the producer or the arranger. When everything's
been "arranged" to the producer's satisfaction the
track will then be recorded. As you say the producer usually has the final word.

The process will vary depending on the exact
circumstances but I think that's generally how it works.

I'd imagine this only really applies to fairly big-budget sessions. In the case of self-contained groups the arranging of the musical elements would usually come from the group itself.
I'd imagine in cases like Earth Wind and Fire who'd use Dells' arranger Charles Stepney there
would be a fairly long pre-recording stage as there would be so many people with a "voice" in
the process.

Davie

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 01:42 pm:

Thank you, gentlemen.
I'm going to take this oppertunity to tip my hat to the unsung people who thought up the arrangements or "sweetenings", and how flat these songs would probably sound on my radio without their good work.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 03:26 pm:

Doug,
It's true. There are times the arranger really is the un-sung hero. Many songs have become hits through the efforts of a talented arranger that might never have seen the Hot 100.

By dvdmike (12.84.41.187) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

Until the late '60s, arrangers were rarely credited. On the records, they might credit the musical director or conductor (usually the same person). But the conductor wasn't always the arranger. From the early days of recording up until the mid-to-late '60s, there were hundreds of cases like this. But then, the arrangers started getting their due. I don't know why the change happened, be it "conscience" by the record labels or the "inquiring minds" of the record buyers. But people have always wanted to know who actually wrote the music. Though many credits have been coming to light of late, I'm afraid many of these people will never be known.

By Lexuses71 (68.136.16.61) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

Charles Stephney was a true genius. Whether ist was the dells, EW&F, or Ramsey Lewis, this guy I truly miss. I have always been intrigued by the arrangers who, as stated above with the writer(s), producer, and most importantly, the musicians "soundshape" the music. I have studied guys like Gil Evans, William S. Fischer, H.B. Barnum, Arif Mardin, Jack Faith, Dexter Wansel (a personal fav for PIR stuff), Gil Askey, Thom Bell, Richad Evans, Paul Riser, Bill Meyers (awesome), the list goes on and on. I have a whole list of them. These guys, many who wore the "triple threat" writer/producer/arranger hats really fascinate me. Especially in regard to larger, more orchestrated works.

And JUST like the Funks, they often labored in the background, their names seldom getting credit, let alone recognition for theit unique contributions. Some are more well known than others but they all had a creative and unique talent.

Which is The Shaping Of Sound.

By Lexuses71 (68.136.16.61) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 05:54 pm:

P.S. Anyone ever really listened to the haunting and exquisite string/horn arrangements on Ramsey Lewis' "Maiden Voyage" and "Mother Nature's Son" by Stephney? Just absolute killer stuff.

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 06:24 pm:

Another classic Charles Stepney album is ' Occasional Rain ' by Terry Callier. Some of his Rotary Connection stuff is interesting too. Didn't he also arrange the Dells "The Love we Had Stays On My Mind"? That guy really knew what he was doing.

SteveK

By Lexuses71 (68.136.16.61) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:20 pm:

Steve-
I do believe he did. Steph did most of the Dells' arrangements. Yes, the Rotary Connection (with Minnie R.) stuf is quite interesting. One of the thing I loved was his then unique use of voices as on Ramsey's "Les Fleur" or "Ony When I'm Dreaming". That stuff was done in 1968-69 and it still sounds vital and fresh now. Stephney also did the Soulful Strings tracks ("Burning Spear").

Is the Terry Callier album still available?