By Soulpuss (24.102.217.36) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 08:40 am:

MY FAVOURITE J.J. SONG IS "HEY CHILD, I LOVE YOU". THIS WAS PICKED UP LATER BY SCEPTER.

CAN ANYONE GIVE SOME MORE INFO ON MICKAY'S RECORDS. WHO WERE THE OWNERS, ETC.?

By David Meikle (213.122.36.207) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 08:52 am:

Mickay's was based 4 blocks south of the 20 Grand at no. 4619 14th Street (another vacant lot).

It is a very interesting label and was owned by Fred Brown.

I believe that Kable operated from the same address.

By Soulpuss (24.102.217.36) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 09:11 am:

Supersleuth David to the rescue one mo time. Thanks.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 01:57 pm:

Hi,

No addresses are shown on any Mickay's or Kable records I have seen... but David has got the magic book! I am not sure but I think J.J. Barnes is the artist I have on most different labels. Can any other Detroit artist beat this?



Mickay's, Kable, Scepter, Ring, Magic Touch, Golden Hit, Ric-Tic, Groovesville, Revilot, Buddah, Volt, Perception, Organic, Contempo and Motown (Cellarful... CD) There are maybe more resent issues I don't know about.



That's 15 different labels. If anyone is interested I can post more scans on any of the labels mentioned above.

Lars

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

And "The Dell Fi's"

Lars - Thank you for sharing all of those labels.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 02:57 pm:

OK Lars, more from the magic book!
Enjoy.

By LG Nilsson (212.247.9.242) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 04:10 am:

David,

I can imagine J.J. Barnes reading this ad and then call that number... after a while he is recording "Teen Age Queen" b/w "Some One" on the label... and as we say... the rest is history...

I like to read more from your "Magic Book"

Lars

By David Meikle (213.122.28.195) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 08:28 am:

Lars

That's a cool way to think about it.

Much more to come.

David

By medusa9e (66.73.6.96) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 08:44 am:

My favorite JJ Barnes record was "Poor Unfortunate Me", can't remember the record label.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 09:01 am:

Medusa,

"Poor Unfortunate Me" was his only release on the Ring label.



Lars

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 02:02 pm:

This is the nationally (US) released J.J. Barnes 45 on Scepter. Originally recorded for Mickay's.



B-side is "Hey Child, I Love You" as mentioned above. My favourite among J.J. Barnes early recordings is "Lonely No More". It has that early mid-tempo Detroit groove. Anyone here know anything about the musicians on that record?

Lars

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 02:15 pm:

"Lonely no more" is superb!

I would think musicians would include Joe Hunter on keyboards and Dave Hamilton on guitar. However that is one tough question.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 02:46 pm:

David,

... Just found out that "Lonely No More" is quite valuable too now days. I paid $2 or $3 dollars for it... many, many years ago. J.J. Barnes changed labels all the time...



B-side is "Cloudy Days"

Lars

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 03:51 pm:

Another one I've never seen before.

I recall hearing "Lonely..." at an event in England several years ago.

The disc jockey was a guy called Martin Barnfather, commonly known as Soul Sam.

Sam's popularity came about because of his determinination to only play mega-rare items.

I would reckon that this 45 must be worth a LOT of dollars. How did you come across it Lars?

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 04:08 pm:

I think I got it from Martin Koppel in the beginning of the 70's... but I had a lot of sources during that time so I'm not sure.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 04:13 pm:

How did you get into the music?

Are there many fans of rare soul in Sweden (or Stockholm)?

Is Detroit your speciality?

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 05:12 pm:

David,

I began listening to Radio Luxembourg in 1959 on 208 Meter Medium Wave when I was a new born teenager. In the beginning I liked everything that was called Rock & Roll. Cliff Richard, Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochran, Chuck Berry, Little Richard etc. Around 1960-61 I heard �Shop Around� by The Miracles, �Please Mr. Postman� by The Marvelettes, �Will You Love Me Tomorrow� by The Shirelles, �Save The Last Dance For Me� by The Drifters and other group sounds. I was building up a �taste�. When I later heard �Heat Wave� by Martha & The Vandellas and �My Guy� by Mary Wells I was knocked down. At a shop called International Press in Stockholm I found magazines like Billboard and New Musical Express. I grabbed everything I could get hold of.

I was quite alone in Stockholm digging the Soul sounds from the USA. Everybody was listening to the Beatles, Stones & Gerry & The Pacemakers. I was listening to Jr.Walker & the All Stars� I was also listening to the original recordings of music the Beatles and Stones played. Muddy Waters, Slim Harpo, Isley Brothers, Arthur Alexander, Jimmy Reed, John Lee Hooker�

I found �my�records in small import shops in Stockholm, and records by mail from England, USA & Canada. At this time these soul records were no �rarities�, it was seen as �garbage�. Sometimes it was like �buy ten for a dollar�. The Northern Soul Scene did not exist in Sweden. (However it does now!)�but it sure raised the prices! I stopped collecting records in the middle 80�s.

The radio market was very dull in Sweden during the 60�s. My goal was to change that. 1971 I started my professional radio career� and I�m still working on it�

Yes David, the favorite sound is �The Detroit Sound�� and J.J. Barnes is a hero� This Groovesville recording is from his golden era:



Also all his Revilot issues are rather well known:



When Revilot was withdrawn from the market LeBaron Taylor leased a recording by J.J. Barnes to Buddah:



� and Don Davis went to Memphis�



� to be continued�

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 05:25 pm:

Lars,
You definitely have my undieing interest and respect.
Thank you so much for these great contributions.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 05:48 pm:

Ralph! you're beating me to it in giving thanks to Lars. To hear your story, Lars, is (to me) as interesting and important as the musicians who recorded the songs. It adds flavor, history, context specially from the feelings of one teen in Sweden. Noone would know... With this site we all are witness to how connected we are.

Thank you all for your time. It is a gift.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 06:32 pm:

Nice background Lars.

Looking forward to part 2.

Thanks

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 02:53 pm:

Lars,

Thanks for the background.

Here's a couple of Swedish soul connections

One of the guitarists on Luther Vandross' early solo albums was George Wadenius who'd led Made
In Sweden in the late sixties then moved to the
US where he joined Blood Sweat and Tears and then on to session work including Luther's albums.

One of the Sherrys, the Philadelphia girl group who were the daughters of Little Joe Cook
moved to Sweden in the late sixties - she ended
up working as a duo with one of the Hep Stars.

HAven't come across any Finnish soul connections
yet but no doubt Heikki will tell us.

Incidentally there are quite a few Swedes (and Heikki) who are members of the southern soul group on Yahoo.
They know their stuff and are highly valued members of the group. Eva, who works at Stockholm
University, is great at finding web sites that
give a lot of good background info. on whatever's
being discussed on the forum.

One of the things I love most about this forum is
that it's linking people across the entire world.
I wonder if there are people from the former
Eastern bloc finding their way to this site ?

By David Meikle (213.122.196.243) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 08:53 am:

Davie
There was an English exile on here in the first few months. His name was Dave and I think he was in Moscow or Prague.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 07:55 pm:

� back again with my �blue-eyed soul� background�

When the 60�s became the 70�s I was deep into Isaac Hayes symphonic sounds, Curtis Mayfield�s first solo recording after leaving The Impressions, Marvin Gaye�s �What�s Going On� album and the �new� Stevie Wonder after signing his new $$$ contract with Motown. At the same time I thought the old �Motown Sound� and the old Stax �Memphis Sound� was a bit dated. The sounds from Philly on PIR with The O�Jays, Billy Paul, Harold Melvin and The Blue Notes were more exciting� but The Commodores and the Norman Whitfield sound of the 70�s was still electrifying music from Motown� That was my opinion then�

In the 80�s I was very happy when �my� old Motown hero, Jimmy Ruffin, had a hit, even in Sweden, with �Hold On To My Love�. I was then a producer at Radio Sweden, the BBC of my country, and had a great part in launching new music on the air. I even produced an eight hours long series on Motown. Lionel Richie did the intro for me when he was in Stockholm together with The Commodores for a concert: �Hi, I am Lionel Richie of the Commodores, and this is the Detroit Sound presented by Lars Goran Nilsson!� � That was cool, I still have the tapes�

I also produced a Swedish synth group called Adolphson-Falk in the 80�s. It was a music mix of Kraftwerk, Norman Whitfield, Depeche Mode and crystal clear harmony voices in the style of Simon & Garfunkel! We were on the Swedish charts many times and even had a number one hit! That was cool too!

In the 90�s I left Radio Sweden for the commercial radio company Bonnier Radio, first the national Megapol network and from 1997 the oldies station in Stockholm, VINYL 107. This year, 2003, we were voted �Best Commercial Radio Station in Sweden� by the Radio Academy. Supercool! It's like the Marconi Radio Awards in USA.



On Monday Soul Party you can sometimes hear J.J. Barnes� �Tell Me Ain't It The Truth�, the great track from �Cellarful Of Motown�� on the station� and the new 60�s -70�s soul scene will continue forever in Sweden� I hope� but J.J. Barnes changed record labels all the time�

� This is a single from his Perception album �Born Again�



I am not sure if this is the real J.J. Barnes on Golden Hit. I don�t know what year it was recorded either. Can anyone here help?



A nice soul ballad from his 70�s years:



Paul Carrack wrote and sang this blue eyed soul song in his group ACE:



I have heard that J.J. Barnes was not that happy with this release� B-side is called �The Erroll Flynn�!

�Well, just a message from �Soul Centre� in Sweden�

Lars

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 09:06 pm:

I check this thread everyday. JJ Barnes probably has been on more labels than anyone. I am hoping he is in town on May 23rd.

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 09:59 pm:

Lars,

Talk about A Career Radio Man who's still going strong. Great bio man.

By acooolcat (61.58.83.13) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 10:21 pm:

Hi Lars
I think the James Barnes' 45 on Golden Hit is Jock Mitchell, not J. J. Barnes.
Graham

By David Meikle (213.122.143.126) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 03:26 am:

Hi Lars

Great stuff.

Interestingly, I too went through about a decade
where I ignored my sixties sounds.

Thinking they sounded dated was exactly what I thought.

I got heavily into P-Funk, Jazz-Funk, Malaco etc etc

David

By acooolcat (61.58.83.13) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 04:46 am:

Lars, and David
I also drifted away from 60's soul in the mid-70s and began to buy Bobby Womack's albums, which I think still sound great. I think at that time a lot of people got tired of the Northern Soul scene (aside from Wigan's Casino) and got more invoved in domestic things, like buying a house and having a family. But, here we all are.... thanks to the world wide web and David and Lowell's great site.
Graham

By Ian W (194.75.128.2) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:12 am:

That's exactly the last 25 years of my life too!

Bobby Womack's 70s stuff now gets played side by side with all the usual 60s tracks. These days deejays regularly leap from R'n'B to modern soul without upsetting too many people. I guess the scene is better for this and many more previously 'forgotten' tracks are being rediscovered.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 05:47 pm:

Hi gang!

Thanks for your kind words! We all seem to have been kind of lost musically in the 70�s! Interesting�

Davie,

George Wadenius is a great Swedish talent. I think he is back in Sweden again now. The �Sherry� girl you are talking about is Charlotte Walker, she met Sven Hedlund in �Hep Stars�. In that group was also the keyboard player Benny Andersson, later one of the B�s in ABBA! Sven and Charlotte are still married and they are still touring Sweden as �Svenne & Lotta�. Last year Sven did a promo jingle for VINYL 107!

The two most well known and best groups in Sweden during the 60�s were �Hep Stars� and �Tages�. Tommy Blom, the front man, or, �The Paul McCartney of Sweden� in Tages, is now working as my midday DJ at VINYL 107! He is the deep soulful voice on my radio station.

We have some great soul voices here right now. If you have a chance, try to listen to Eric Gadd and a group called Blacknuss.

Graham,

The Golden Hit record above is a mystery! I have got the �Jock Mitchell With The Fabulous Agents� 45 on Golden Hit 103-B... but the arranger is credited as Aaron Neal on that issue! � and the time length is 2.30� but still� the records sound quite similar! Why change name?

� Just found out that one J.J. Barnes label is missing� and the reason I got interested in him when I saw this record on the Billboard R&B chart 1966 peaking at No. 18.



Well, here�s the big challenge for J.J. Barnes discographers and Detroit soul historians. Can anyone here upload a scan of a 45 single of J.J. Barnes on a label that is not yet presented on this thread? I am talking about the 60's and 70's now. There is at least one single I know about, so the challenge is not impossible! But I do not have that single in my collection. I have the music; I just want to see it.

Two more questions... was �Sweet Sherry� ever released as a single in the USA?... and has anybody here heard �Easy Living� with J.J. Barnes? I am not talking about the version on the �Rare Stamps� album where J.J. Barnes is credited but Steve Mancha is actually singing!

Lars

By MEL&THEN SOME (212.159.51.27) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:21 pm:

Lars,
I dont know if its mentioned above,
but apart from the James Barnes on Golden Hit that you mention above,
'free at last(great day a coming)vocal and inst wasnt Golden Hit Productions Number 102 by
James Barnes Agents Funky 4
called
'Good and Funky-GH-103-B'
C/W
'No Mad Woman'-GH-103-A.


Also on the Invasion Label
JJBarnes/1001a
'my baby'
c/w
'you're still my baby'/1001b.

Apologies if these have been mentioned.
Theres also the Hitsville Acetate of 'aint that asking for trouble'.
I Have the 'poor unfortunate me'on Ring and also on Columbia Records no.44246,by Gi Gi and the Charmaines.
I also have 'real nice'on Cap City records no.122 by Johnny Barnes that is supposedly J.J.
REGARDS
Mel.

By acooolcat (61.58.83.13) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 04:48 am:

Lars,
"Sweet Sherry" was only released in the States on the Rare Stamps LP.
Graham

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 11:31 am:

Thanks Mel & Graham for the info.

Mel, my Golden Hit 103 by Jock Mitchell has the �Free At Last� track as B-side! I�ll post a scan if you want to see it.

Also� just found out that this is J.J. Barnes behind the pseudonym �Jay Rhythm�� or maybe lead singer in this group.



B-side is called �Soul Emotions�, same prod & arr credits.

By MEL&THEN SOME (212.159.48.55) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 01:59 pm:

Lars,
all scans etc very much appreciated.
Graham,
I had a copy of 'Rare Stamps'on the (uk)Stax Label that was also personally signed by both artists on the sleeve.
I had the album for years along with a lot of first issue (uk)Tamla Motown albums,and imports all the early stuff along with stuff like (uk)Bobby Bland on Vocalion,call on me,was unplayed with other quite expensive stuff but a little shit bag robbed them from my gaffe(house).
This was only about 2 years ago,and the little shite knows that I never,ever,forget being shit on,no matter how trivial or big,it is all the same to me.
Every Album has Mel(andthensome)in each right hand bottom corner so if anyone on the (uk)soul scene ever sees anything with that moniker on it,let me know.
If it takes a lifetime,I Will search any low life out that has crossed me on the scene.
I am very patient,
and what comes around,comes around.
Sorry for all that guys,
but Rare Stamps and all still winds me up.After being robbed.
Regards
Mel(aka/Knuckles)

By acooolcat (61.58.83.13) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 08:31 pm:

Hi Lars,
I'm sure that Jay Rhythm 45 is by a singer named James Thorpe, although JJ had a hand in it.
Mel, I've also been the victim of theft - a box of rare 45s from the trunk of a car, and also a house breakin when someone took all my CDs. As you say - it's not a nice feeling.
Graham

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 09:06 pm:

Heartbreakin' stories you guys. I understand your fury Mel.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:02 pm:

Hi Guys & Girls!

I still have my records left�but what a loss to lose them� I don�t want to think about that!

Mel,

Here�s the scan of the B-side of my Golden Hit 103 and as you can see, the same title as the James Barnes scan above:



A-side is �No Mad Woman�

Lars

By acooolcat (61.58.83.13) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 03:20 am:

Lars - Do you have the Johnny Hardtime 45 on Golden Hit?
Graham

By acooolcat (61.58.83.13) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 03:29 am:

Lars,
Have you ever compared "Free At Last" with The Reflection's song, "Shabby Little Hut"?
Graham

By LG Nilsson (212.247.9.242) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 03:45 am:

Graham,

The answer to the above two questions are... No! I will compare the songs when I get home from work.

Lars

By MEL&THEN SOME (212.159.53.108) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 02:47 pm:

Many thanks Lars.
mel.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 07:07 pm:

Hmmm, someone has done something not so nice here... same backing track... but not same credits! Inreresting! Thanks for the info Graham.

Lars

By Marc Forrest (145.243.194.67) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 09:49 am:

Hi Mel & Thensome, I have a copy of Rare Stamps for you...contact me.

Marc Forrest

By Marc Forrest (145.243.194.67) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 09:51 am:

If anyone has a spare copy ogf Jock Mitchell on Golden Hit, please feel free to contact me. Tarde or sale.Thanks a lot.

Marc Forrest

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:33 am:

Lars,
If you have the Golden Hit 45 "Good and Funky" by James Barnes - you should compare it to the J. J. Barnes 45 "I Ain't Gonna Do It" on Ric-Tic, or "Loose Juice" by Andre Williams on Wingate.
Graham

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 07:04 pm:

Yes Graham, I have noticed that they use the same background on the Ric-Tick & Wingate 45's!... anyway, Andre Williams is credited as writer & producer on both. That's good. I don't have the "Good and Funky" single so I have not heard it... but I can guess what background they use.

Many Detroit companies used this method to change title and artist... and release it as an instrumental... or use the same backing track with new lyrics on a new artist... I like this way a lot better than the Phil Spector way when it comes to creating B-sides...

Lars

By keith.rylatt@tesco.net (217.137.107.27) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 07:30 am:

Re J J Barnes' label ownership, although J J has never mentioned it in his various interviews, did he own, part own, GOLDEN AGE 808 St Aubin. Det? main artists being Halo Gospel Singers.
Also I have scraps of info on Morgus & the Daringers,(possibly on Fulton), Bob Callender, (poss on Gold), Syl Foreman, (poss on Mandingo) and the Jane, McJoy & Grady labels, I need clarification / anything you have. These scraps are often from throw away remarks in interviews or old Martin Koppel lists or Blues artist interviews etc. Thanks Keith

By MEL&THENSOME (212.159.48.21) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 09:03 am:

Lars,Graham etc,
I dont know if it has been mentioned but there was a Hitsville Acetate by JJ called
'aint that asking for trouble'.
Wasnt there 2 cuts of JJ with the Dell-Fi's on KABLE(437)and also Rich(no.1005)which have probably been mentioned above,apologies if all have been mentioned.
mel.
p.s.
Just for the record
my fave JJtrack is 'please let me in'.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 01:58 pm:

Keith, Morgus and the Daringers were indeed on Fulton - around '58.

Mel, "Ain't That Asking For Trouble" is almost
certainly the same song that Stevie Wonder recorded.

Incidentally you mentioned Johnny Barnes on
Cap City as possibly being JJ - personally I doubt it. Cap City was a Washington DC label
- there's a singer called Johnny Barnes who
recor4ded mainly on West Coast labels who just
might be the guy on Cap City but more likely
it's somebody entirely different.

By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.3) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 02:02 pm:

Davie,
I was always told that it was JJ that was on the 'real nice'stated as Johnny Barnes,even by the guy who sold it me,a supposedly Detroit expert in his day.
That was over 20 years ago so I will now be looking out for him.
Thanks for the info.
mel.

By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.3) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 02:03 pm:

p.s.
It dosent take anything away from the record 'real nice'as I bought it for the sound.
And it still sounds good today.
mel.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 04:01 pm:

Mel,

J.J. Barnes had two releases on the Rich label but both were re-releases of his first 45 on Kable.

I think this is a complete US J.J. Barnes singles discography during the 60�s & 70�s
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Love Came Tumbling Down / Won't You Let Me Know - Kable 437 1960
My Love Came Tumbling Down / Won't You Let Me Know - Rich 1005 1960
My Love Came Tumbling Down / Won't You Let Me Know - Rich 1737 1962
Just One More Time / Hey Child I Love You - Mickays 3004 1963
Just One More Time / Hey Child I Love You - Scepter 1266 1963
These Chains Of Love / Color Green - Mickays 3114 1963
Teen Age Queen / Some One - Mickays 351 1963
So Far Away / Love Requires Understanding - Mickays 353 1964
Lonely No More / Get A Hold Of Yourself - Mickays 4471/4472 1964
Poor Unfortunate Me / She Ain't Ready � Ring 101 1964
Please Let Me In / I Think I Found A Love - Ric-Tic 106 1965
Real Humdinger / I Ain't Gonna Do It - Ric-Tic 110 1966
Day Tripper / Don't Bring Me Bad News - Ric-Tic 115 1966
Say It / Deeper In Love - Ric-Tic 117 1966
Baby Please Come Back Home / Chains Of Love - Groovesville 1006 1967
Now That I Got You Back / Forgive Me - Groovesville 1008 1967
Easy Living / I've Lost You - Groove City 206 (as by The Holidays) 1967
Now She's Gone / Hold On To It - Revilot 216 1968
Sad Days A Coming / I'll Keep Coming Back - Revilot 218 1968
Our Love Is In The Pocket / All The Goodies Are Gone (inst.) - Revilot 222 1969
So Called Friends / Now She's Gone (inst. - The Lebaron Strings) - Revilot 225 1969
Evidence / I'll Keep Coming Back - Buddah 120 1969
Snowflakes / Got To Get Rid Of You - Volt 4027 1969
To An Early Grave / Cloudy Days - Magic Touch 1000 1970
My Baby - You're Still My Baby - Invasion 1001 1970
You're Just A Living Doll / I Make Believe I'm Touching You - Perception 546 1973
I Think I've Got A Good Chance (Pt 1) / I Think I've Got A Good Chance (Pt 2) Organic 1 1975

Any additions or corrections to this are welcomed...

The Holidays �I�ll Love You Forever� on Golden World also includes J.J. Barnes but I believe his voice was removed when Edwin Starr was overdubbed...

Lars

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 08:42 pm:

Lars - JJ was never on "I'll Love You Forever."
Cheers,
Graham

By Scratcher (65.132.76.240) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 08:45 pm:

Hmmm...I always thought the Holidays on "I'll Love You Forever were really Edwin Starr, Steve Mancha and J.J. Barnes.

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 09:00 pm:

Lars and Scratcher - I interviewed on of the original Holidays (who had a good memory), and he told me the full story - JJ and Steve Mancha were not involved in this recording.
I'm not sure where that rumor started; In an interview Edwin did for Soul Survivor magazine he effectivly said the group were just session guys, which wasn't true, although they did do a lot of session work at Golden World.
Graham

By Scratcher (65.132.76.240) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 09:17 pm:

Well Graham, who backed Edwin Starr on "I'll Love You Forever," if not J.J. and Steve? I also heard Eddie Anderson was on the record too.

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:09 am:

Hi Scratcher - The Holidays were a group of 4 from the south; They recorded the song but Ed Wingate didn't like it, complaining that the lead vocal was too weak - and so Edwin did an overdub.
Forgive me for not naming the original members of the group - I'm saving that for a future date.
With respect, Graham

By Scratcher (63.188.33.131) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 09:48 am:

Graham, I know a little bit about the Holidays, they stemmed from the Fresandos as the Four Holidays with Jimmy Holland. It's been said Jimmy Ruffin was a member too, but I've never been able to verify this. They backed Emanuel Laskey on "Lucky To Be Loved by You," which is one reason Edwin Starr thought of them as only a backing group. They also recorded before "Lucky..." as the New Holidays on Master and Markie Records.

In interviews I've read on both Starr and J. J. Barnes both state the singers on the record was Starr, Barnes and Mancha.

When the record hit the Holidays were reassembled with a line up of Jimmy Holland, Jack Holland, Jay Reid and Tony Hestor. This lineup (with some changes) recorded and released more singles on other labels but all were unsuccessful.

Who was the guy you talked to?

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 10:20 am:

Hi Scratcher - I don't want to say too much as I'm writing a book that'll detail all the facts, but please bear in mind that I've interviewed Jim Holland, JJ Barnes and Steve Mancha - as well as the guy who formed the Golden World group... sorry, but I'll not name him at present.
What I will say is the "Holidays' Story" is very confusing, as there were a few groups in Detroit named "Holidays," but I seriously doubt that any of them backed Emanuel Laskey (I've also interviewed him) and would say it's probaby The Peps, two of whom I've also interviwed.
Your idea about Jimmy Ruffin being a member probably comes from the fact he had a hand in writing one of the songs - off the top of my head... it's on Markie - but he wasn't a member of the group. His co-writer was Cyril Clark, and I've also interviewed him.
Best wishes,
Graham

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.34) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 10:58 am:

Mel,

I had a look at my database - it was Bobby Barnes
I was thinking of who had releases on West Coast
labels. There's a surprising number of soulsters
named Barnes.

That Cap City single seems to be from '71 going
by the release dates I have for earlier Cap City
records.

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 11:08 am:

Hey Graham;
Thats a book I'm looking forward too ! When you interviewed Steve Mancha, did you pretty much focus on that era? I've always been curious how he came to record lead vocals on Parliament's "Breakdown" and "Come In Out of the Rain" ca. '71. Any info?

Steve K

By matt (208.130.56.167) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 12:09 pm:

the weird thing about the cap city "real nice" single, and what may fuel suspicions that it's j.j., is the similar feel to "real humdinger," i think...

also, are we positive j.j. is the lead singer on the hollidays' "easy living" groove city 45? what about on the flip? damn, it sounds like mancha to me.

By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.35) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 01:26 pm:

matt,
I always thought JJ and Steve Mancha sounded alike in a few records that had me scratching my head before now.
mel.

By matt (208.130.56.167) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:32 pm:

yeah, mel. it just sounds to me like the guy singing "easy living" (brilliantly, i should add) is the same guy who sings "just keep on loving me" and "friday night."

m

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.85) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 03:36 pm:

Gang,

This is taken from the booklet in the double CD J.J. Barnes � The Groovesville Masters [Goldmine GSCD108] written by Richard Pack 1998:

/One of the standout tracks on the �Rare Stamps� album is the song �Easy Living�. Credited to J.J. on the album, the same cut had previously been issued on the Groove City label as by the Holidays. I asked J.J. to clear the matter up. ��What happened was that both myself and Steve Mancha cut a vocal on the track. Now on the Rare Stamps album Steve�s version was on my side of the record credited to me. Everybody thinks it�s me� and Steve has a similar sound. I always thought that my vocal was good enough and to this day I�ve never forgotten it � to me it was an insult./

I do not have the Holidays single on Groove City. If they are the same Steve Mancha is the singer on that special track.

Lars

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 08:44 pm:

Yes, it is Steve Mancha singing on the Groove City 45, "Easy Living."
It has nothing to do with the Holidays group, that's just the name Don Davis put on the 45. Steve didn't want his own name attributed to it - I think he felt uncomfortable with the lyrics.

Lars - there are a few tracks on the JJ Barnes double CD that are not JJ singing; some are Steve. Rick Pack did a good job with the notes, but was pressed for time as his boss wanted the CD released yesterday... I remember supplying him with the 20 Grand clipping used in the liner booklet at the time. Rick wrote a similar worded article in the Soul Survivor magazine (number 8).

LTLFTC
I did talk to Steve about his time at Invictus in the late 60s - but don't think we talked about the 70s and those tracks you mentioned. I'd have to listen to the interview tape again.
Cheers,
Graham

By MEL&THEN SOME (212.159.53.161) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 12:21 am:

Graham,
any idea when the book will be released yet?
mel.

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 12:53 am:

No Mel - It's seems that Detroit was a bottomless pit of musical creativity, and I keep on diggin'. I hope that it'll be within the next 2 years though.
Keith's book should be out very soon.
Graham

By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.84) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 09:31 am:

Cheers Graham.

By Marc FOrrest (145.243.194.67) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 10:34 am:

after all those informative superb infos there may only be one thing left unsaid, which is that the Delphis did a nice (answer) version of "Won`t You let Me Know" on Check Mate called "I`ll Let You Know".

By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.5) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 01:23 pm:

Graham or anyone,
who were The Hollidays then that worked with Joe Hunter and Dale Warren?
mel.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.129) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 01:30 pm:

That's an interesting question Mel. They released a lot of records on different Detroit labels. The last single on the Golden World label was released by the Holidays. J.J. Barnes is credited as both producer and writer on the B-side of �No Greater Love�, the follow up to �I�ll Love You Forever�:



I don�t know if he sings too? J.J. Barnes is also credited as writer on this Revilot 45 by the Holidays:



� If he sings here? I don�t know. I do not know of any members in this group as information about them are very different depending on what book you read!

On the other Holidays singles I�ve got J.J. Barnes name is nowhere to be seen� Marathon Records, Rob-Bon, Ron-Hol, Soulhawk, Westbound, Markie and others�

Lars

By MEL&THENSOME (217.14.178.5) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 01:38 pm:

Lars,
I dont know if I sent you the scan or not.
On the
Holliday Recording Co. Record Label
titled
'set me onb my feet right'
with writing credit to S.McClure-Hollidays.
no.4013.
Notice the 2 'L's' in Hollidays as well.
Any info Graham?
mel.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.129) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 05:48 pm:

Mel,

Yes you did. Thanks! That adds only to the mystery of this group or groups... and their different members... their story has yet to be told!

Lars

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 09:05 pm:

Hi Mel - I've spoken to two singers from that particular group; it's a different group from the Golden World one.
Graham

By MEL&THENSOME (217.14.178.42) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 12:14 am:

Many thanks Graham,
I Bet your a good poker player mate.
mel.

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 08:42 am:

Mel - you'll just have to wait a while, besides - I'm still diggin' for the full story.
Lars - That Hollidays' song was on the tape I recently sent to you.
Graham

By RD (63.188.33.28) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 09:26 am:

Graham, I'm curious. You said you talked to J. J. Barnes, did he tell you he and Steve Mancha didn't sing with Edwin Starr on "I'll Love You Forever," or are you relying solely on the member of the Holidays. I asked because the information is on many websites, including those of some people who post here, and they haven't changed from Starr/Barnes/Mancha = "I'll Love You Forever," yet. If it's just he Holiday guy then I have to questioned the source since the group never had a hit and the guy may be trying to take credit for something he didn't do. Don Davis would know, he's around, you ever talk to him?

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 09:43 am:

RD,
Yes, I interviewed Don Davis and he told me the same story. If you listen to it - can you hear JJ and Steve? The guy who's just below Edwin is the guy from the Holidays that I spoke to.
Graham

By RD (63.188.33.246) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 10:08 am:

No Graham, I can't say that I can distinguished Barnes or Mancha in the background but the background is kinda plain anyway. I can, and most fans, can only go by what they read and what they're told in cases where the backing voices don't stand out, i.e Eddie Kendricks and some others. I sometimes can't tell Barnes and Mancha voices apart and you can throw Darrell Banks into that mix too. My question is, if it's not true, how come Edwin Starr, J. J. Barnes or Steve Mancha never came out and said this a long time ago? Starr and Barnes have been interviewed in Europe numerous times and not once did they say the Holidays backed Edwin on the number. Not arguing, just curious.

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 10:32 am:

RD - I can't say - but perhaps they were never asked directly.
Anyway - The Holidays cut the record and Edwin dubbed his vocal on later, which is a bit different from "the Holidays backed" Edwin.
I'll call Steve this weekend and ask him 110%-for-sure, and will let you know.
Graham

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 11:02 pm:

RD - I just spoke to Steve and he confirmed that he's not on the recording of "I'll Love You Forever" by The Holidays.
He said that he did a demo of the song - before it was recorded.
Graham

By Tony B. (212.56.114.168) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 07:23 pm:

I wish Goldmine/Soul Supply had taken more care with the Groovesville recordings they've re-issued, e.g. their alleged "duets" - I don't mind listening to different vocal takes of the same song, but not at the same time!

From memory, there are four tracks on "The Groovesville Masters" CD that are NOT by J.J. Barnes, three by Steve Mancha and the other by who knows (though a terrible thought did once cross my mind).

There's really no excuse for putting out shoddy products at any time, but it's unforgivable when it's Groovesville.

Regarding "I'll Love You Forever" by The Holidays, I have to say that I prefer the version on Goldmine's "Thelma Detroit Collective" CD to the original.

The question is who is the lead singer on this alternative? If it's Edwin Starr, then it's the least Edwin Starr-like I've ever heard him. It sounds a lot more like J.J. Barnes to me, though I'm not convinced it is J.J.

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 07:29 pm:

Tony B
I'm pretty sure that I've never heard the version which is on a Goldmine CD. I'll have to get hold of a copy.
When you say "original" - are you refering to the Golden World 45, which has Edwin Starr on lead?
TIA, Graham

By Tony B. (212.56.114.168) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 07:31 pm:

"Thelma's Detroit Collective" is the correct name of the CD.

By Tony B. (212.56.114.168) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 07:42 pm:

Graham, by "original" I did mean the Golden World issue with Edwin Starr. I'll be amazed if it's Edwin on the other one.

I can email you a snippet of the Thelma CD song, in Real Audio, MP3 or, if you prefer a really good compressed audio format, OGG Vorbis!

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 07:44 pm:

That would be fabbo Tony.
acooolcat@yahoo.com
TIA, Graham

By acooolcat (61.58.181.126) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 10:27 am:

Thanks Tony, and Lars.
I'll try and copy this song and send it to one of the guys in Detroit. I'll let you know what he says.
Thanks again,
Graham