By stephanie (64.63.221.45) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 05:58 pm:

Gang,
I thought it might be interesting if there was anything in the back of your mind as a child or now that you would have done if YOU were one of the greats. Is there anything you would have done (if you had the power) to do something differently in the career of one of the greats. Would you have produced or played on the record differently? Would you have done something different with the guitar or the mix or the drum or would you have given one of our greats on or off of the board a different career path? I dont care if the record was a hit I dont care if one of your greats is a millionaire or not or richer than you I dont care how big they are to you Im sure there is something you would have done differently. I cant wait to see the reaction Ill start. I feel funny and nervous doing this and I think we all do but I want to see honesty without insult. Granted what they have done were almost all a success and some misses but lets hear it especially with the musicians on the board. Ill start.

Im no record producer but as a little girl I thought the long version of Love Wont Let Me Wait had the lady moaning TOO much...dont kill me Mr Eli I still feel that way it was a hit and its proven itself but that is how I feel.

Mr Coffey I have always felt ever since I saw you on Soul Train that even though you are an in demand session player that if I were your manager I would have marketed you more as a front man like a Ray Parker Jr type. After I saw you on Soul Train with your band I wanted to see MORE of YOU but you wound up being an in demand session musician and although you have had great success I wish I could have seen you a lot longer fronting a group for a long time I wonder how that would have turned out...OH when I was pretending to be a record producer when I was little and thinking up strategic stuff I used to say we are NOT going to put out Taurus after Scorpio...we are going to put something out second that has nothing to do with Astrology and then come back and put out Taurus. I dont feel that way now....LOL

Ralph and Russ I dont know WHO mixed that Diana album with Im Coming Out....I forgot but if any of you guys are responsible for this I think you did a good job except for one thing. In the beginning of Im Coming Out (I know it was a hit) I think that Diana's voice was a little thin and should have been shoved up more. The beginning of that record has always disturbed me and I think I am the only person who feels this way but there is something about hearing more horns and guitar than Diana..maybe it was supposed to be that way but I wish her voice was more strong in the beginning like it is after the beginning. It may not be fair to say this to you because I dont know if its a mixing thing or an engineering or production thing. If the comment is misdirected forgive me.

Finally Holland Dozier Holland on the song Heat Wave I think that Mary and Flo should have had more oooph to the background...they sound bored but Diana's lead was great. The Supremes sing HDH is a great album but what happened to the liveliness of the More Hits by the Supremes album.
Mary and Flo were well heard!!! Flo should have had the oomph back there that Rosalind had and then let Mary Wilson do the low part to counteract it. Both of them are low and it doesnt sound right. The song needed more life to it.
Oh well thats it for me as you can see Im no producer but Im sure you all will have much better thoughts that are more justifiable than mine.
Stephanie

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 06:10 pm:

Steph,
Interesting thread. First of all I didn't mix the Diana Ross song. I assume Russ did. What you bring up here is very interesing though. Believe me, the little game you have created here is one we producers have played for years with our own recordings. Why didn't I do this.. or .. I should have done that.I use to take this very personally until I heard a Paul McCartney interview where he talked of the Beatles doing the exact same things with many of their biggest records.

By HW (68.37.216.164) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 06:35 pm:

When I work on reissues I can agonize over the tiniest details until I talk to a guy like Ralph or Russ or Bob O or Joel Dorn or Lamont Dozier... and they all tell me similar stories, all of centering around the reality of: yes, they agonize(d), too; yes, they fought with their bosses for certain things; and yes, at some point, DON'T WORRY, trust the music and kick it out the door.

I read an article about John Lennon hoping for the chance to go back to the Beatles catalog to remix the early albums. Ah, what fun he'd be having now...

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 08:08 pm:

Hi Stephanie. I was on the road supporting Scorpio for about a year. Bob Babbitt was with me. In those days there were not many mainstream instrumental artists. Nowadays there are still not many mainstream instrumental artists unless its jazz, which is what I am playing on my new CD. When we were out touring most of the acts doing shows with us were vocal acts. I had a nice time playing a show in the UK last year so who knows what the future may bring.

By dvdmike (12.84.102.46) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 08:31 pm:

I think remix engineers suffer the same corporate interferences. I remember years ago having a conversation with Steve Hoffman about "The Nitty Gritty" by Shirley Ellis. He remixed it for the "Vintage Music" series for MCA back in the eighties. When I heard it, I called him and asked him why the crowd and clapping overdubs were left off. He said it was a company decision. He fought with "tin-eared" executives who knew nothing about music and lost. I guess it was one of those "I'm a king sh-- VP and I'm making this move just because I can" type of situations.

By Eli (141.152.251.40) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 01:03 am:

Hi Steph..
Interesting point about "Love wont let me wait.
When I listen to that record now I agonize on the fact that it was way too slow and dirge like.
Yes the long version was too long and redundant and I could have given Major some different ad libs other than "listen girl" and "Whoa oh oh oh "
The long version did have it's benefits in the fact that it led to a copious amount of "surprise family way circumstances" including Major JR!!

I do think though, listening to it now that
Barbara Ingram's ecstatic outbursts were
quite unnecessary and the record would have held its own without them.
It was a sensuous love ballad and I think that Luther made it his very own when he covered it, although some people like Major's version better.
Go figure!!.

One of my pet project wishes is to be able to take the multi track master of Together by the Intruders, run a second slave reel, and bring in Barbara Mason to do a posthemous duet ala Natalie and Nat Cole. Ahh, wishful thinking!!!

By stephanie (64.63.221.13) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:08 pm:

Wow sounds good Eli....
Stephanie

By Eli (151.197.184.19) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:29 pm:

Steph..
If Kenny Gamble just would lend me the multi, I will go ahead and book the time and do it.
Maybe I can get ol' Paulie to make him an offer, capice???

I can just imagine Barbara and him together as they both shared similar "whiny" voices.
She can even throw in a few "I'm ready's"
in the outro!

By stephanie (64.63.221.146) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 07:45 pm:

Mr Eli,
I know this may be a tough and sensitive question but in all honesty do you feel that these new breed of producers like Babyface and LA Reid and Madonna and Lauryn Hill and Puff Daddy or Diddy ...and Wyclef Jean really KNOW the rudiments of producing and playing like you and Dennis Coffey and Holland Dozier Holland and Gamble and Huff , and even George Clinton? I know that is a loaded question and I know these people know how to make records but when you think of the technology we have now you would think that things would sound better. I STILL like Narada Michael Walden and with yourself and the others mentioned think he is one of the last of the lot. I mean even though Marvin Gaye is a singer or was a singer (may he rest in peace) the production he did with the help of the guy from the Four Tops I think it was Obie someone correct me if Im wrong...on the album Whats Going On was incredible and the production and arranging he did with the Originals..Baby Im for Real and the Bells. I mean he is not known as a great producer like some others but I mean he could blow some of these Missy Elliots out of the water. What is your take on this? I DO think Babyface and LA Reid are good though, and of course the great man people like Diana and Natalie Cole and Whitney hate to work for but he gives them great songs is Michael Masser. This man is notorius for 60 takes i guess he is like the modern day Phil Spector but maybe that is what we need these days and not a bunch of sampling and garbage. Again Bobby and anyone else what is your take on these new producers?
Stephanie

By The Real Eli (151.197.219.217) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 03:24 pm:

Hi Steph...

The beauty of the way we worked is that we had real people with real knowledge of real music working with real musicians.
We usually got what we wanted in one or two takes.
Sixty takes is a self indulgent thing usually done by people who feel very insecure of what they do.
Most of us knew ahead of time just exactly how we heard the song and what we wanted out of it.
Every now and then someone from the outside who was similar to the person who you described before showed up but they were given a hard way to go because of their obvious innadaquacies(sp)

A lot of the newer "producers" have no knowledge of music whatsoever and cannot tell you the difference between pizzacato and legato.
They probably think that they are some kind of pasta gravy as in penne pizzacato or veal legato, capice???.
I would not have said that if I did not witness it for myself!!!

Babyface and Jam and Lewis are very musical and I respect what they do.
Babyface said on a tv interview that he is a big Thom Bell/Linda Creed fan and Jam and Lewis once said in Keyboard magazine that he liked what Norman Harris and myself did with strings and I called them right away to thank them.

Truthfully, I miss the days of interaction in the studio.
There were many times that one certain lick that someone played no matter how small , made all the difference in the world.
Ronnie Baker's bass intro on Bad Luck, Anthony Jackson's bass line on For the love of money,
my guitar intro on the love I lost, all were spontaneous and made a musical statement.
And the list goes on and on.

You cannot program spontanaety(sp)

Hopefully, the phase will pass and we will once again have real music.

Amen!!!!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 04:28 pm:

Steph,
Mike Masser was a very talented song writer that should never have become a producer. Trust me on that one.

By Eli (68.162.99.73) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 05:37 pm:

Hey Ralph,
I second that emotion, and we know why!!!

By Whats the skinny on Masser? (216.23.183.2) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 05:40 pm:

Come on guys.....kiss and tell!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 05:57 pm:

Hey Gang:
I read Natalie Cole's autobiography where she wrote about the time Michael Masser produced one of her late 1980s hits "Miss You Like Crazy." He apparantly had a disagreement with Natalie's label at the time (EMI/Manhattan Records) over what song would be the first single from the album and took the session reel home with him in protest (which you music biz folks know that labels consider this theft - especially since they paid for the recording). He wouldn't surrender the tape unless EMI earmarked "Miss You Like Crazy" as the first single - which they did. Natalie even mentioned that Whitney Houston forwarned her of Michael's shennanigans.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By stephanie (64.63.221.236) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 05:58 pm:

Ok whats the scoop guys on Masser? Without being nasty or anything Im assuming (and correct me if Im wrong) that he is a good songwriter and the reason he does SO MANY takes is that he is not as adept at prodcucing as he is songwriting. Now if you answer YES to that its not an insult. You dont have to get deep. Hey Phil Spector is a great producer but I dont think he is a great singer and he sang behind Annette Klein on I Love How you Love me when he and I think the guy is Marshall when they were the Teddy Bears. Sorry I meant to Know Him is to Love Him. The Paris Sisters did I Love How You Love Me (DUH).......

I think some folks may think that if they do 60 takes it makes them a great producer. I wonder if that is the trap that Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys fell into thinking that if he stayed up all night and did all of these elaborate things on Good Vibrations that made him a good producer.

Just because you are anal retentive does not mean that you are the best. See these ladies are singers so they may think Masser is a great producer where one of the greats on the board or off of the board HDH, Gamble and Huff...etc could have gotten it in 4 or 5 takes. It amazes me how Masser gets all of these takes and splices them together. I will tell you another hell of a producer is Bones Howe he did wonders with the Fifth Dimension I love the sound of all of their albums. Eli that guitar is jammin on The Love I Lost mad props go out to you on that one. I have to give props to Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis they are not my fave producers but they did wonders with Janet Jackson on Control. When he comes back to the board Id also like to thank Deke
Richards for what he has done I think he is a highly underrated songwriter myself. The stuff that Dennis Coffey did and you Eli and the mixes of the Terrana Bros have stood the test of time.
I think that someone needs to pay homage to the cats of MFSB as well because although it took years for the Funk Brothers to be appreciated (WAY TOO LONG) I may add MFSB has been neglected.

I know that people remember the Sound of Philly but except in the history books (and not enough) do they talk about the musicians they are literally faceless. I know that people think of Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes and the OJays and
The Three Degrees when they hear the sound of Philly but believe it or not one of the records that is dear to me in the sound of Philly is the Intruders ..Ill Always Love My Mama...

If George Kerr had gotten a hold of the Escorts and took them to the Gamble and Huff label I think they could have given the Intruders a run for their money but unfortunately they were in jail. I wonder if Kerr is the only person to record guys in jail? If he is I guess he was ahead of his time. I like the Whatnauts too on the ALL PLATINUM label. All Platinum had some good stuff its too bad Sylvia is remembered for the Sugarhill stuff....
Stephanie

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 06:22 pm:

Stephanie:
If I may chime in as a label owner and a veteran of radio, record retail and labels both famous and (somewhat) controversial...

To me, what makes a good producer (and I have produced my share of music - not massive but hey, it's mine)is being a damn good listener of music. Do you have to know how to play an instrument or sing? It would help. But being a good listener of music is a place to start. A knowledge of song structure, arrangements, instrumentation, genres, listening/interacting with the artist/act in the studio is what makes a good producer as well as having a FEEL for music. If you can't feel it, forget it - the production will sound dull and dead.

You mentioned Dayton "Bones" Howe - one of my heroes in the music biz. His ability to produce, engineer, mix and arrange music (when he's collaborating with Bob Poleman) has made his productions melodic and classy. Whether it's the Turtles' "Happy Together" or ALL the Fifth Dimension albums he produced, he's a prime example of what makes a great producer along with Gamble-Huff, Thom Bell, HDH, Norman Whitfield, Bobby Eli, Smokey Robinson, Jerry Wexler, Brian Wilson, Carole King & Gerry Goffin (they produced Little Eva's "The Locomotion"), Angela Winbush and others too numerous to mention.

As for the sixty-takes thing? Hey, if that's what it takes (so to speak), then so be it. The Box Tops' "The Letter" also took numerous takes.

Respectfully,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 07:15 pm:

There's not a thread big enough to tell about Masser. I worked on countless hits with Mike, very talented writer, but would drive Jesus to drink on the production side.

By Dennis Coffey (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 07:28 pm:

Hi Stephanie. Mike Theodore was also a big part of my production sound. He and I are still working on projects together.

By 1wicked LMAO (24.126.64.120) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 07:30 pm:

Russ...u owe me a keyboard !! This one is about to short out from the Coca Cola bath it received after *that* line. LOL LOL LOL

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.157) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 07:37 pm:

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 08:39 pm:

Wicked..He got me with that line also. Trouble is..it's all true. To the rest of you. I'llleave it up to Russ if he wants to tell any Masser stories. Or maybe Bobby will fill you in on something.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 08:43 pm:

WOW!! Great scan of the Dennis Coffey record. Thanks LG

By Eli (151.197.47.219) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:15 pm:

Kev..
Thank you so much for placing me in the company of all of my favorite people.
I sincerly mean it my friend.

By Eli (151.197.47.219) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:31 pm:

Hi Steph..
I always referred to our group as the "stepchildren of R%B pop"
Bassist Ronnie Baker received a posthemous mention in Bass Player mag and to me it was written as an afterthought by a not so knowledgeable journalist.
Norman Harris and myself received a similar mention in Guitar Player Mag in '83.
Charles Collins is about to appear in Modern Drummer and Earl is yet to appear.

In Philly, the Philly Music Aliance has a "Walk of Fame" and there are people who have stars who have no Philly conection like Joan Jett, Billy Joel and several others.

Once I called in an inquiry and the woman said "just who are you and what was YOUR contribution to the sound of Philly??
Needless to say, she no longer works there.

By Linda Di. (66.24.93.80) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:44 pm:

Mr Eli -- first of all, I am honored to be sharing in your posts here. I'm a huge fan!! You mentioned the Walk of Fame ... I have written to the Philly Music Alliance several times to induct the Sweethearts of Sigma. Never receiving a reply, I hand delivered my letter on a visit there. I received a polite thank you. But never a reply ... and I'm assuming the Sweeties still don't have a star. What a shame. Every musician who shared the studio with you and the others should have their own star. I believe it will come one day, I just hope it's soon!

Again, pleasure to meet you!

By Eli (141.151.24.11) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:02 am:

Linda Di...
We get much more respect for our accomplishments outside of Philly and outside of the US for that matter.

he powers that be are supposed to have the knowledge of who exactly did what .
The people who run the alliance should know better. After all, Joe Tarsia is high up on the board!
Please dont get me started!!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 01:21 pm:

Bobby:
First of all, your welcome my friend. I always hold your work in high esteem.
It's a damn shame that Philly's "Walk of Fame" has yet to honor many of the unsung heroes that put the City of Brotherly Love on the musical map.
Like I said earlier, let's do a movie on MFSB, call it "Standing In the Shadows of Gamble & Huff" or something like it and do what Slutsky did for the Funks - show respect and recognition for these fine musicians and stars. And do this WITHOUT the help of the Walk of Fame alliance to remind them of what Philly once had and still has!
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (151.197.178.179) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 02:28 pm:

Its been talked about but no one ever does anything about it.
I even talked to Alan several years ago about it but nothing came of it.
I guess that the Philly guys ARE the stepchildren of R&B after al.
Also, at least the Funks had a decent amount of members who were still alive.
We have only three . There are some "second string" guys around though.

By stephanie (66.54.1.38) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 12:53 am:

What the hell happened to everybody else at MFSB there are only three living? I thought those guys would be younger than some of the Funk Brothers....
Stephanie
curious

By Mishas Zucainim (68.162.96.71) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 01:48 am:

Steph..
They were and are younger than the Funks but they passed on way before their time.
Norman harris was 38, Ronnie Baker was 45,
Larry Washington was in his 40's, Roland Chambers was 58 Kark Chambers was 56. Most of the string players along with Don Renaldo are gone. They were older men back then although there were some younger ones such as Larry Gold and Davis Barnett and his wife and Christine Reeves.
Some of the horn guys, but not to many of them.
Out of the rhythm section, I was the youngest and Vince Montana was the oldest.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 01:58 am:

Eli - I love Philly. I loved your statement above: "The beauty of the way we worked is that we had real people with real knowledge of real music working with real musicians." Right On!!

By Eli (151.197.44.14) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 08:28 am:

Hi Sis..
It doesnt get any "realer" than that.
With all these rappers today talking about "keeping it real", they oughta take a listen to what The Funks, the Mg's and us did!! Talking about keeping it real.

I recently had a conversation with a young so called "producer" and he could not even pronounce the naames of certain instruments or sounds or even the word producer correctly!!
Gimme a break. No wonder the biz is going down the tubes when we have all of these "so called producers" and "so caled record execs" running the show.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:55 am:

Bobby:
Try working around the corner and across the street from these pretenders....
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (151.197.179.204) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 02:14 pm:

I DEF initely can dig it my JAMmin bro!!!!
Oh yeah, and no man is an ISLAND.
But plese dont call me a LYOR just because I wouldnt give you an ice cream COHEN!!

I am now going to my insurance agent to get a piece of the ROC cause A FELLA told me to do just that.
Big ups for UNIVERSAL l ove, right on right on!!!

By stephanie (64.63.221.115) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 03:05 pm:

Hey Eli
I guess when all you have to work with is drum machines how would you know an instrument and its name...LOL Thank God we still have the live bands like the Funk Bros and Confunshun and Dazz and Earth Wind and Fire and the other bands to stil play and even James Brown. Can you imagine James Brown or Diana Ross singing behind a drum machine or Chaka Khan!!!! Oh the horror of it all.
Stephanie