By medusa9e (66.73.13.142) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 03:46 pm:

The Other day by chance, i happened 2 watch a rap video, and...tell me how did-
baseball caps-bald heads replaced hair
marijuana replaced kisses
Rims/Lexus/SUV replaced women (or men)
baseball & basketball outfits replaced shirts & pants & dress shoes
Rollin' & Robbing replace working/owning a business/making a decent living
Clubs replaced schools & churches
Nikes & Tommy Hilfiger replaced high heels & dresses
DVD's/Videos replaced looking N2 eachothers eyes
Driveby's replaced Respect & talking it over
sex replaced love
The words Dog & Nig-- replaced the word Brotha
The words Bit--&Ho- replaced sista (any female)
a beat down replaces a touch
Rap replaced the most precious LOVE songs
can I hear from someone N the a-men corner, can U feel me???

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 03:51 pm:

I wasn't looking when it happened either, Medusa - and I certainly wasn't listening.

By hiram (159.53.32.41) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 04:06 pm:

Is This A Great Country Or What? For the answer, ask your friendly non-music inclined type record executive with the love for exploitation. Sex sells and nobody wants to think for themselves. Todays society is an Instant Gratification society. No Accountability creates Poor Product in all business.

By hiram (159.53.32.41) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 04:08 pm:

Ps,

I don't consider Rap as music. Therefore it can never replace music. Unfortunately, nobody is promoting music right now.

By medusa9e (66.73.13.142) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

ok, but there is a name 4 selling sex, it's called prostitution.
The problem is, a lot of people have displaced morals. If they see it on TV(Video), they just have 2 have it, they just have 2 B like that, they just have 2 act like that etc...and I do agree with U. Just blows me away when someone's waiting 4 the bus with a cell phone and a $250.00 pair of gym shoes on or if they R riding around N a Lexus/SUV and living with Mama, but paying $800.00 per note a month (amd Mama's lettin' them). I saw a small kid at Eastland oneday, could hardly walk with a huge gold chain and all the Tommy Gear on. Most don't have any HEALTH Insurance- Let alone Life Insurance.
Somebody know what I mean...Thanx!!

By Sly fan (67.119.52.31) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 06:16 pm:

I could go on with very subject because some folks make it an US vs. THEM thing instead of finding the GOOD things out of this beautiful artform.. But I will keep it simple..

What is considered REAL? For the fact that my Grandmother called Little Richard, James Brown and Chuck Berry GARBAGE even to this day...

Medusa..you brought up a good point that you watched a "rap video" first you gotta ask who was the artist you were watching because it wasnt Public Enemy,Queen Latifah, Will Smith, KRS One, Common, Kool Moe Dee, Talib Kweli,Mos Def, etc who all have made positive contributions in their communties and in this artform...My point is consider the source not the box that it came in..

Rap doesnt raise these kids..its a thing we call PARENTS..

There is good and bad in every kind of music.

Medusa..I suggest you check out these following people:

Talib Kweli
Tribe Called Quest(who produced Gil Scot Heron's previous lp)
Mos Def
Public Enemy (get their whole catalogue!!)
Common
KRS One
Queen Latifah
just for starters..every thing aint Puffy or Ja Rule...

By Eli (141.151.62.200) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 07:00 pm:

Medusa..
I couldn't agree with you more!!
Upon analyzing "urban culture" throughout the years, nothing has really changed, only the price of the "toys".

Back then it was the "Cadillac mentality" whereby some guys actually would sleep in their Cadillacs
and not even have a decent home in which to live.

I have been a witness to this.

I went out and bought several nice cars myself, although I had a wife and we lived in the suburbs and we needed two cars because there were two people with two jobs.
This "Ghetto" mentallity comes from not having anything and almost overnight big checks start to come , but they seem to forget that you need to put away money for a rainy day such as Uncle Sam, and other important things in life.

It's like "hey look at me, look what I have and you don't"

Some of these 'clowns" refuse to leave the projects because that is where they are "The Man"
or "The Woman."

All in all, it is a sad state indeed!!

By medusa9e (66.73.14.137) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 07:14 pm:

Yesss,
Sly U R definately correct, about the Parenting, but sad 2 say some of the parents R no better than the kids. So both R influenced by what we hear, see and what we R taught. U R Very Corect.
...And also U 2 Sly R very correct. Thank U from the A-Men corner. No, it was non of the Rappers U mentioned, but can't recall who is was, but all I saw were Suv's, Gyn Shoes, Gold Chains and Cell Phones. Didn't really mean 2 offend anyone who is necessarily, materialistic, and moralistic (sensible) with it.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 08:02 pm:

Medusa, Sly, Bobby, etc.
I'm very much in agreement with what you folks have said. I've seen enough of it through my years in record retail. What bothers me is when a kid comes in with every penny they've saved up to buy the latest CD by their favorite artist and doesn't have enough (or any) carfare to get home. Yet that artist the kid supported with their last penny goes out on a shopping spree because they can.
Don't get me wrong - there are many artists who worked their way from the bottom to the top but these folks are definitely outnumbered (sadly) by the "bling-bling, I got my thing" materialism of other so-called "talents".
And don't get me started with what we see in the music videos....
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Angel G (80.182.201.245) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 04:59 am:

i'm tired of REAL music.i'm disgusted of love songs and all that shit.once they tell it one time "i love u" thats enough.we need a change.stop the revival.

By john dixon (63.101.17.207) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 05:48 am:

"I'm tired of REAL music"--that's a hell of a statement, Angel, and rather sad too. You just might be on the wrong forum since everyone else is here precisely because of our love for real music.

By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 06:57 am:

Ain't the music biz great today.

All an exec has to do is spot a fyne girl (who will look real good in a video) at the Mall. Sign her up and take her into a high tech studio where the equipment can disguise the fact that she doesn't posssess any vocal talents at all. Add in a bling-bling merchant to prattle on in rhyme, mix it down to a cacophany & the track is ready.
Then shot the vid, allocate a big marketing budget and shmooze the BET / MTV base music channel guys.....and u got a hit.

Real singers & musicians......redundant the lot of em.

Mind you, I am told that RCA are about to try & buck the trend and get a hit album on Howard Tate.......I really do hope this comes to pass.

By Jim G (12.47.224.12) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 08:25 am:

I've always believed that art imitates life: If 'rap' is viewed by younger people as a legitimate part of their culture, then it will remain popular.
It is popular for the same reasons that Disco or Glenn Miller was popular with young people of earlier generations. It gives voice to their feelings, captures the cultural zeitgeist.
I can't buy the 'it's popular because that's all that is available to young people today' argument, either. This argument suggests that Big Band music could once again be popular if only it was aggressively promoted. (I'd love nothing more!)
Rap, like 'electric rock' from the 60s (or any other generation's music) will gradually be incorporated into more 'mainstream' music.
And for those of us who say it isn't 'real music', just noise, I offer Bob Dylan's take on his generation: Don't criticize what you can't understand. It is different to what we like, but does that mean it has no validity?
I don't care for rap, but when I saw '8 Mile' it opened my eyes to its place, and importance, in youth culture. Very interesting.

By Rich (162.33.234.103) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 08:46 am:

You're comparing apples and oranges Medusa. Hip-Hop is far better compared to the movies. The video is their moment. Livin' large, larger than life ... the big screen. Its not real, nobody thinks its real, but its still entertaining. Scarface ... The Godfather were the blue-print, not the Temptations or Motown. The music is secondary, its the score, the soundtrack, background sound, little more than wall-paper. On CD the lyrics need to be very graffic so the listener can see it without any effort, thought or insight ... just like the movies. Kids when they talk about the track, talk about the video. The rhymes are laid down with the video in mind, not the other way around. Its much more of a visual art form that an musical one. The music has always been secondary.

Anybody remember Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five from their kazoo playing days?

Hey y'all we're havin' a ball, hope you're doin' fine, 'cause anytime is a happy time for a birthday party rhyme (lookout Bobby Eli & all you musicians because here come the kazoos).

Peace

By angel g (80.182.201.200) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 09:04 am:

sinatra,nat cole,jim morrison,marvin gaye,john
lennon,sam cooke theyre all passed.music is dying
-if u couldn't invent new stuff stop the game,baby.too money,too lies,
too drugs.

By gabriel (80.182.201.200) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 09:06 am:

angel,say what?

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 09:46 am:

Hello everyone,

Adding my two cents: I remember in the early eighties as a teen as not being a fan of the music during that period(too busy trying to be a punk funk princess! lol) but eventually, I was hooked once I saw some of the videos of the day. Most of the music was clean fun & some of the rappers themselves were musicians(Stetosonic & the Fatback band comes to mind). More interesting is that it was also pushed along by innovative funk & jazz musicians such as Pieces of A Dream (check out "Mt Airy Groove", which was said to be the first record to introduce the "scratching" technique) & Herbie Hancock (Remember "Rock It"? That song, along with the video was a MONSTER hit!). However, things took a turn onced sampling was introduced. Some rappers, such as PE, took it to a whole new level, by putting together a collage of music samples & making it sound like a new song entirely! However, somewhere along the way, the record companies saw the huge profits that were to made & eventually, the culture was compromised & altered considerably.

My point is that once upon a time, there were alot of good things about rap. It was diverse in content & it gave kids a way to show their creativity. Those who feel it is not "real" music should remember this: that kids don't cut the arts & music budgets in public schools. Adults do. If there was more support for music & the arts, we wouldn't have the situation that we're in. And while I myself haven't listened to rap in the last several years, due to the monotity & the violence that unfortunately have come into play, I'm not the quick to dismiss it. I still feel it can be a vital link & force but unfortunately, big business have corrupted the art form, hence the type of crap(not to mention the lack of talent) that permeates the airwaves today.

Peace!

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 09:50 am:

Just wanted to add: The early rappers from eighties to the early nineties, some had college degrees & others were pursuing careers in some of the so-called "standard professions".


Peace!

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:02 am:

Indirect question.....
.....does this whole "gansta" rap thing remind anyone of the "Superfly" era? There seems to be an attitude in some rap that harkens back to that time to me.
Also, someone made a point (i think) about MTV a bit ago. What I find halarious is this 19 year old kid I worked with and the gansta image he's trying to project. Bear in mind I live in a very ethnic area (lily white), and the only connection this kid has with rap (or other races in general, except hispanic) is TV.

By Lynn Bruce (65.60.202.214) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:10 am:

I agree with Jim G. All the music that we love on this site was shot down as crap,simplistic,three chord B.S.,by most older people in the late 50s.
Change the term rap to rock and roll and for me it's like listening the same people that dissed our music.
Young people have always picked music different than their parents,and parents have always bitched about how bad their kids taste in music is!!
This generation is no different.
I'm positive that this generation in thirty years will be bitching about how rotten their kids music is. "YOU CALL THAT RAP,WHY WHEN I WAS YOUNG,WE KNEW GOOD RAP!! LOL

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:11 am:

douglasm: Of course, it does. Where did you think these kids get the idea about pimps & gangstas? Watching some of the 70's blaxplotiation movies & listening to their parents comedy party records (like Skillet & Leory, Richard Pryor, Blowfly, etc.) have inspired some of these kids. Contrary to popular belief, these kids, (though they wouldn't tell you), think their parents' era was pretty cool. The only difference is that the ones today are doing an updated version of that image in almost exaggerated proportions. BTW, Dolemite is more popular now than back in the day, thanks in part to Snopp Doggy Dogg & Ice T (who is almost damn near 50!!!).

Peace!

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:26 am:

Lynn makes an excellent point. It was put into focus a number of years ago by a Doonesburry (sp) cartoon where Mike says to someone (his son?) "I don't understand music today", and the kid responds something like "Of course not. It's not your music, it's my music. You're not supposte to understand it, then it wouldn't be my music!" Kid's got a point. Although I can not like a lot of the current music, I can't dismiss it out of hand because I don't like it.

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:31 am:

Lynn: Thank you! That's the exactly the point!

Peace!

By doggonedays (67.24.157.168) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:45 am:

I don't listen to rap crap. But, that's my choice. I buy (when I can find it) the stuff that I like. It's a big world and not everyone has to listen to the same thing. That would be pretty boring. I do believe the talent out there is pretty skimpy these days. I can grab my crotch, squat, point my finger and wear baggy pants and recite vulgarities.....and I HAVE NO talent. So, where' my contract?

By hiram (159.53.32.41) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:47 am:

Some great points have been made on this thread.

Eli,
I agree with a lot of what your saying but I have to disagree regarding your statement: "Upon analyzing "urban culture" throughout the years, nothing has really changed, only the price of the "toys". I am 45 yrs. old and I grew up in urban Detroit. I don't recall Drive By's or any kid bringing a gun to school, let alone offing another kid for his high tops, not to mention taking out half the school populus because someone picked on them. Yeah, a couple of us owned switch blades but never really had the balls to use it on anything other than opening a pack of Twinkys. Basically, we either kicked ass or got our asses kicked via a great sucker punch and a few kicks to make sure they didn't get back up. So I have to say I think not only urban culture but our culture in general has changed quite a bit.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:52 am:

I agree that most of us aren't supposed to like rap, it's not "for" us ...but I'd add that I think melody/harmony/"real" music is on the back burner right now, and I think it will return because it's a basic human need. People get a lot of things out of rap but it's a literary/rhythmic art form, not music, so you're not getting the benefits we get from listening to music ...

And it's so much "of the moment" that it's hard to imagine people listening to it 30 years from now.

By Common (209.2.55.171) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:58 am:

Hiram: I agree. I grew up in the late seventies thru the early eighties in the projects & never saw a drive by either or kids bringing guns to school. That disturbing phenomenon originated on the west coast. But then again, the mob had been doing it for decades, only difference is they were a little more "conscientious" at whom they were shooting at.

Peace!

By hiram (159.53.32.41) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

Sue,

Very Well Stated.

By Lynn Bruce (65.60.202.214) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

They thought rock wouldn't last,"just a passing fad".Sue, I sure hope your right!!

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:55 pm:

I FEEL YA,AND ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT IN A WORLD THAT'S TURNING UPSIDE DOWN REASON HAS BEEN REPLACED BY INSANITY,SO MEDUSA9E JUST DO WHAT I DO,PULL DOWN THE SHADES,POUR YOURSELF A STIFF GLASS OF KOOLAID,PUT ON THOSE OLD MOTOWN RECORDS AND PULL UP THIS FORUM..WORKS FOR ME!

By Sly fan (67.115.74.6) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 05:06 pm:

R&B...thats why we gotta keep the music alive and most of all keep the faith!! We have the power to change things for the better in this world, no matter what we do...this forum is a start...Those old Motown 45'a are a very good start...


Rich: You are too old school!! The party rhyme, LOL!! Damn, I miss the age of innocence!! Afrika Bambaataa is playing in LA next week, I will be first in line...

Common: You are waaaay too dope!!! My mom loves Run DMC more than I do..yes it was an innocent era before corporate screwed things up (you gotta rent "Brown Sugar")...

Eli,KevGo,Lynn Bruce,JimG and everybody: I am agreeing with all of your points...

Medusa: I totally understand, we just have to reinforce whats happening by supporting functions that raise money for schools to have music programs and such, kids need an outlet. The "Bling Bling" mentality is all over the place..its called materialism. Why buy Pro Wings when you can get Air Jordans right??

By Sly fan (67.115.74.6) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 05:10 pm:

Common: Mt Airy Groove!! You are too much!! That is still my jam!!! God Bless Grover Washington Jr....


You brought it back!! Now I gotta look for my Pro Keds..

By Eli (141.151.91.211) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 05:50 pm:

Hiram...
When I said that nothing has changed, I was referring to the "Cadillac mentality" and the price of his toys was referring to Bentleys as opposed to Cadillacs and the accoutraments that go along with it such as 22 inch rims and over priced jewelry.
Values have changed tremendously.
I overheard a girl on the train say
" I aint gonna give no n****r none 'less he gots 22 inch rims"
That about sums it all up, doesn't it then???

By angel g (80.182.203.143) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 03:38 am:

i hope the people saying rap isn't music KNOW what is rap.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 04:44 am:

Mary Lou Williams b1910, Great pianist/musical genius. Now that's real music. She learnt to play the piano by watching and listening to Fats Domino. Can't read a note, I think. Could orchestrate a big band in one breath, trumpets, trombones and such. For me to go forward with my music, I need to go backwards and see how it was done in the 30's and 40's! This fine lady has a street named after her in Kansas I believe. I must try and buy some of her stuff if it is available. If I could play the piano like that. She is just magic.

By Jim G (12.47.224.12) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 07:18 am:

Carl, my man, it was Waller (among many others) she listened too as a youngin'--Antoine wasn't yet born.
Williams is one of the great arrangers of jazz, very innovative style which defined the sound of Andy Kirk's great band.
She not only read notes, she wrote 'em.
Mary Lou had an eclectic keyboard style, ranging from straight out boogie-woogie to more dissonant music.
There are TONS of recordings available. Check out the Classics series--Any Andy Kirk releases have Mary Lou. And the small group sides under her own name are available as well.
Her "Zodiac Suite" from the mid-40s is really interesting.
Linda Dahl's book "Morning Glory" has a lot of good info about Ms Williams, who had a very interesting life.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 10:52 am:

Jim - yes, you are right! This was on a programme I saw last night. Of course it is was Waller (ain't misbehaving?). I got my wires crossed. Did she learn to read later, because the programme mentioned that when she was a girl, her mother did not know where she used to go and after an accident or something, her mum found out she was called the piano girl(?) and at that stage could not read music. It was a fascinating programme and I know I could not take it all in. Might be worth me having a look on the net for info. Thanks for your recommendations.

By TonyRussi (68.210.2.125) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

I like FUNK and a lot of whats being called RAP does have a funky beat....what I totally dislike are lyrics that are dirty, degrading to women,promoting violence or trying to stir up racial confrontations.Parents can't police their children 24/7 & the media(especially radio stations) must be responsible about their playlists.Some of the stuff I've heard in the middle of the day on what is now considered "top 40" radio is horrible..."its hot in here, lets take our clothes off" or ranting about wanting to have some mans baby...PLEASE children don't need to be hearing this garbage.

By Sly fan (64.169.106.188) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 01:50 pm:

Tony: Really great point..in the words of Sir George Clinton himself.."Hip Hop is the new FUNK". I totally agree with you Tony.


There is a lotta garbage out there in radio period..not just rap..To just pigeon hole rap music is not fair and its very bias. Music is a state of mind..there are some who called Sun Ra's music not real music yet this man's recordings are legendary and took jazz to another level..

I can do without the negative lyrics myself..keep in mind it is radio programmers who work in conjunction with these music corporations that keep putting this stuff out..a lot of these A&R's have the slightest clue what Hip-Hop culture is (let alone good music) and are making BIG decisions on what gets signed these days...Therefore, a lot of the rap you are hearing is garbage w/o a question but that is not all there is..just as in the 70's for every "Cadillac Mentality" there were the Gil Scot Heron's, The Last Poets, Mandrill, WAR, etc..that made uplifting music...

Today there are people such as Lauren Hill, Talib Kweli, Q-Tip, Wyclef Jean,Will Smith, Common, THE ROOTS(Hello out there, they actually play instruments..)etc who make really POSITIVE uplifting music but labels and radio are stuck on that "if it works" formula and thats why you have a lot of this garbage happening..

Keep in mind..I was kid when I heard records like "Lets Get It On", "Pillow Talk" , "If You Think Im Sexy", "Sexual Healing" etc keep in mind these are GREAT songs but it wasnt exactly Capt. Kangaroo either..I saw Terminator and Rambo also....My point being is that Sex and Violence is an all time seller no matter what genre... But the music must go back to THE PEOPLE and not these corporate clowns who have the slightest clue of what the real deal is....

At least give the people a sense of balance.

Peace and Love...

By Common (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

Hello everyone,

TonyRussi said: "what I totally dislike are the lyrics that are dirty, degrading women, promoting violence or trying to stir up racial confrontations."

Hmmmmm, can we also count some music from the sixties as well? The only difference is that the lyrcial content was more subtle. And talk about "dirty"? What about some of those records from the fifties like "Work With Me Annie" & "60 Minute Man"? Yeah, it didn't have any cuss words in it but it is just as suggestive.

Degrading women: Well, TODAY'S rap music does that but that was not the case when it was in it's infancy. And what's the difference of that & some music of the sixties where women are portrayed as fragile, desperate and always in need of a man? Isn't that just as 'degrading'?

Racial confrontations: Well, let's add Curtis Mayfield, Nina Simone, Marvin Gaye & even Bob Dylan who's lyrics back in the day were probably seen as just as incendiary. Like I said before, the rap industry has changed considerably from the 80's til now & it's quite unfair to label a whole genre which has been in existence for almost 30 yrs on the basis of the current content that is being promoted today. Rock n Roll wasn't embraced right away either & was vilified as "jungle music" & "garbage" as well yet it's still here today. I don't like the current state of affairs in rap either but what do we do to change it? How do we get young people interested in the music of yesteryear & stress the importance of keeping the flame alive BY using the same hip hop culture(ever heard of The Roots out of Philly? They play live instruments as well as rap.)? You don't have like it but whether you like rap or not, it ain't going anywhere.

Slyfan: you remember that song too? :o) Man, that song was bad! Too bad I wasn't smart enough to buy the record. Hopefully, it is now available on CD!

Peace!

By angel g (80.182.201.164) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 02:19 pm:

back in the good ole days we kept on listening over and over "i love u" and thats right but someone has to change something and makes the world knowing there is another point of view.dont u?
then there are very good and very well played hip-hop records.check out dr.dre's "the chronic" for example,its the best funk you ever heard in the last 20 years because its a DIFFERENT and well done.i cannot remember the bass player-maybe someone of you remembers- on it but the boy could play as anybody couldn't lately,thats for sure.
then,i might add, this non-musician rappers i know they could improvise all those rhymes and thats a very hard way to do music.
dre plays also keyboards and its a great producer,he's behind the eminem's success.

By Common (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 02:22 pm:

Slyfan: Thank you! You feel exactly where I'm coming from! I'm very open as it pertains to all music whether it's funk, country, rap, soul, etc. Hell, I don't necessarily like all the contents that may emerge from these genres but I sure wouldn't want them to go away. I think it's wonderful to hear the good, the bad & the ugly. Isn't life in general made up that way? :o)

By angel g (80.182.201.164) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 02:32 pm:

soul music is became very commercial,now as back in the 60's and 70's,motown did anything you could ask from this music and after motown a lot of singers kept duplicate this sound.u could hear it today over and over from craig david to usher to timberlake and i dont know whoelse.r'n'r is died more or less with "i cant get no satisfaction"by the stones...(isnt it too aggressive and bad played???what offered it to us in the 80' and in the 90' with grunge,heavy-metal and all that shit???)....what remains of new?where is jazz music?where is blues?old music for old people or élites.

By Sly fan (67.119.52.20) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 03:23 pm:

Hey Common: Thanx a mil, I have always felt that their are two sides to a coin..Plus, I am a firm believer that "there's the story and there's the truth" y'know?? You cant beleive the hype of radio or tv.. Which song are you referring to? "Mt Airy" or "Pillow Talk"? I do know "Pillow Talk" is on a lot of comps but "Mt Airy" or any Pieces Of A Dream re-issues...good luck..

Angel G: The occassional Bass player for Dr.Dre is the GREAT Tony Green who also appears on "The Chronic" album. Dre is the Hip-Hop Quincy Jones for real!! I love that cat..

By Sly fan (67.119.52.20) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 03:24 pm:

correction: there are two sides...

By angel g (80.182.201.95) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 07:31 am:

thanx,sly fan

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

Salt'n'Pepa said 'Let's talk about sex, Baby,' and Baby never stopped. It's not just rap that is obsessed with this materialistic body stuff. There are few things weirder than watching nine year old English girls dancing to 'Horny'. I stopped off for some fuel yesterday and the music system in the filling station was playing a girl group singing: 'I know you want a piece of my ass, but a man like you would never last,' or words to that effect. Not much future in saying 'I love you' to these parties. Not much chance either.

By Bob Olhsson (12.77.94.77) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 12:54 pm:

Rap and hip-hop culture actually give me hope for the future because "being for real" is clearly the most important value. This can't be a bad thing. You have to admit that it's the exact opposite of The Ozzy and Harriet Show or Leave It to Beaver!

The problem is getting the experience of "for real" music out to the kids in a media world dominated by Disney's former Mousekiteers. Just as kids get to experience real live DJs, they need to experience real live PERFORMED music.

By Motownboy (12.158.230.250) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 06:07 pm:

Careers made on the sampling of old big hits doesn't sound too real to me. MC Hammer, Vanilla Ice all owe the fortunes that they squandered to Rick James, & Queen/David Bowie. Will Smith owes all of his hits to the sampling of other old popular songs.

I find Eminem boring after the first or second listen. He won for best "Song" from a movie (8 mile) at the Academy Awards this year. I'd like to see the sheet music for that "song." (LOL)

Dioes anyone think that today's eap stars will have the historical longevity and reverence of say Ella, Marvin, Stevie, etc.???

By Motownboy (12.158.230.250) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 06:09 pm:

That last line should read:

Does anyone think that today's rap stars will have the historical longevity and reverence of say an Ella, Marvin, or Stevie, etc.???


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 06:50 pm:

To us, or at least me, probably not. But in the same way people asked the same question about disco and it's performers, the answer to the style of music is probably yes, it will take its place in musical history, and will be listened to in one form or another for a long time.
If the artists will have the reverence of Ella, et all, I don't know. It's gonna take a while to find out. But, most all musical styles have their adhearents--some of us can probably quote "Coney Island Washboard Serenade" off the top of their head--so I think rap/hip-hop will have its fans for a long long time to come.

If anyone's close at this point, it's posibly LL Cool J, but again, we're too close to the current timeline to tell.

By Sly fan (67.115.74.118) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 01:09 am:

Afrika Bambaata , Grandmaster Flash ,Run DMC, LL Cool J and DJ Jazzy Jeff and The Fresh Prince, Kool Moe Dee (just to name a few) had careers way before sampling came into play...These people are already historical figures and the artform is still growing and it isnt going anywhere...The sampling argument is tired and its old..Please pick up "THE ROOTS" albums...They play live...

As the Great One himself QUINCY JONES once stated:
"Hip-Hop is the baby of the Black Music experience". He has also created a magazine reflecting the postives of the culture..its called VIBE magazine..

oh yeah, by the way..Hip-Hop outlived Disco..Stay tuned it gets better...

By Sly fan (67.115.74.118) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 01:11 am:

PS: 30 years aint bad if you ask me...

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 05:07 am:

It's another example of the fact that you can't condemn a whole 'category' of music. In the end, music is music. I enjoyed LL Cool J, Arrested Development and so on. But I get mightily fed up with big ugly guys in baggy trousers playing with themselves and shouting obscenities at me from speakers in public places. Also, a lot of so-called rap is just a producers' device to give bite to frothy ditties. When the thing has twittered on to the point of distraction, in jumps the ranter. It takes the place of the old middle eight.

By Eli (151.197.113.4) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 10:43 am:

Nicely said Sly Fan!!

Rap is an musical artform and an extension of our wonderful African- American musical culture.

I do not agree with the negative aspects of some of it but there are MANY artists who rap about positive things.
I have two rappers in signed to my company.
They are extremely creative and prolific.
One is female and she also sings. The other is male and he also sings.

I respect some hip hop producers such as DR Dre who to me is the best in the field.
He has a great team around him to make it all work.

By Grant (216.39.176.225) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 12:53 pm:

"ask your friendly non-music inclined type record executive with the love for exploitation."

I think this summs it up nicely!

What i'd like to see come back to R&B are songs about social and political issues, things that matter.

On the musical side, i'd like to see a real return to live musicians playing musical instruments on recordings. I'd also like to hear an R&B love song without the rapping parts. Ahh, but it will never happen...the kids are too accustomed to sequenced samples and rapping.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 01:37 pm:

In the same way we were accustomed to C F G chord progressions (or maybe A G D) with an Am in the mix......

By Sly fan (67.115.73.113) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 04:04 pm:

Thanx a mil Eli!! Its funny that we talk about Motown and Rap..Because I have an interview on video with Eddie Holland (we all know who that is right??) and he says that he loves Rap music for the fact that rappers utilize word play on a whole new level that the average writer would never think of..etc..He stated Kool Moe Dee as his favorite rapper (I agree too). Who by the way has never uttered a curse word in his life (in recordings at least..lol).

Wow!! Thats cool Bobby..I cant wait to hear them!!They are in really good hands, thats for sure!!

Wow!! you dig Dr. Dre thats too cool!! He does have a great team and he is a die hard perfectionist too.. Another producer you might wanna check for is a gentlemen (from Detroit) named Jay Dee, he is really good too..He did Erykah Badu's latest album and has put out a lot of good material..He just did a remix for Cameo called "Love Junkie" on the DJ Cam cd..its awesome...The Neptunes are pretty good producers also..

Grant: I totally agree, thats what I was explaining in the previous..these A&R's are about quanity not quality.. There are a lot of groups who play live that have a social message (who were reared in the Hip-Hop arena)..you gotta check for college radio..thats the only place you are gonna hear of such groups or you kinda have to be "in the loop" ,they are out there waiting to be heard..trust me..

Douglasm: Break it down my man!!

Angel: You got it!! Peace!!

BankHouseDave: I wouldnt be angry if anything with big trousers were cussing and playing with themselves while yelling..I'd run out that joint and fast!!LOL!!

That's the result of an A&R who doesnt know any better..(PLEASE RENT "Brown Sugar")


Here are a few good Hip-Hop/R&B/Soul albums negative free,live friendly and really worth good listening:

Artist/Title CD:

Dwele/"SUBJECT" (in stores April 22, dont sleep..this dude is IT)

Tribe Called Quest/"Midnite Marauders"

Slum Village/"Fantastic" vol2 (prod. by Jay Dee)

Donnie/"Colored Section" (congrats!! he just got signed to Motown, his name says a lot..kinda scary but he sounds just like him..)

Common/"Eletric Circus" (PRINCE plays on this album as a "guest musician"....)

Pete Rock/Cl Smooth "Main Ingredient"

Talib Kweli/DJ Hi Tek "Reflection Eternal"

Les Nubians (any of their albums)

Cody Chestnutt/"Headphone Masterpiece"

Fertile Ground (self titled)

Nuyorican Soul (self titled) (Hey Eli..Vince is on this album!!)

Mos Def/"Black On Both Sides"


Happy Listening!!

By Julian (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:16 am:

To me, Rap is like Blues.
Somewhere I heard someone say that "the Blues tell the truth" and we were reminded above that Rap/Hip-Hop "keeps it real."

To me, Rap is the Blues with the difference being rap "truths" may be a bit more exagerated and illustrative, and then of course there is the profanity in some, but not all, rap.

I think Rap and Blues are akin in the way they tell "the (sometimes exagerated) truth" and in the way an "average Joe" who's a good storyteller or good with delivery can do his or her thing and be accepted. He/she doesn't half to look any particular way, He/she just has to be good at it.

By Eli (151.197.31.155) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 01:21 am:

Sly...yeah, the Neptunes definitely.
They are inventive and not afraid to take chances.

I would love to hear what the Neptunes would do if they produced the Tempts if Dennis would return or better yet if Curtis M. was still with us that union would have been the s**t!!!!
Just a thought.

Dr Dre producing Al Green, just a thought.

Thom Bell producing L.L. on anIneed love type rap ballad? Just a thought.

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 03:41 am:

How about Norman Whitfield (psychedlic) on N.W.A?

By angel g (80.182.201.159) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 08:00 am:

Julian i agree!!!

By Sly fan (67.115.72.52) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 03:49 pm:

Eli: Good calls on the unions!! Curtis and The Neptunes!! I KNOW that would've worked!! If you dig the Neptunes..PLEASE get their album ,they dont go under the Neptunes they go under another name called NERD (Nothing Ever Really Dies)..its them at their purest..

Dre and Al Green..wow..that would be nice..

Thom Bell and LL would be a perfect union!! LL dedicated his career to the ladies (Ladies Love Cool James)..

Dre and The Dramatics would be sweet too..they did a song on Snoop's album called "Doggy Dogg World" (produced by Dre), The Dramatics at their best!!!

By Kegtapper (64.24.81.151) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

Great subject- but I never "infected" my kids with RAP music, When it came out they were in Middle school. I turned off Cable (MTV, BET, digital Music) went Satelite and blocked them channels out. And today all 3 are successful adults.

Not one gold toof, unwanted grandchildren, saggy pants, or videohoe wannabe in the group. It may had been just my parenting, or No Rap.

Who knows but I didn't want to take chances. They can listen to what they want now, and they choose R&B and OldSchool

I respect others opinions, if thats what they want to listen to.. But not me. Gimme Gladys, Levi, Otis, Aretha, Anita anyday.

Finally- did aspirin and headache medicine sales increase before of after Rap?

EC Mayo
Still Stuck in the 70's

By Sly fan (67.119.52.83) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 07:08 pm:

Its funny because my loves Naughty By Nature and Run DMC more that I do and I never had a "gold toof" or "unwanted kids" in my life..I went on to acheive various awards and honors in my college years in addition to teaching adults how to read in a literacy program I taught for 4 years...Yet I have every Run DMC and LL Cool J release..

So much for Rap huh...

Damn, I am glad my folks were "open minded"....

By Sly fan (67.119.52.83) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 07:12 pm:

wasnt Will Smith accepted to MIT??

Didnt Chuck D from Public Enemy earned his BA??

Kool Moe Dee earned a BA in communications??

(just to name a few)

oh well.. nevermind that...

By Sly Fan (67.119.52.83) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 07:13 pm:

correction: earn

By Sly fan (67.119.52.83) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 07:13 pm:

correction: My mom loves Run DMC...

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 06:34 am:

Sly Fan: I'm going to take your advice next time someone makes with the trousers.

By ANGEL G (80.182.203.91) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 09:14 am:

Kegtapper,
of course RAP music CANNOT be understood by anyone.

By Kegtapper (64.24.82.163) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 02:15 pm:

Angel G:

Though I was raised in the Ghetto before we moved to the projects (and eventually the burbs) I still recognize most of what they are saying.

However, the understanding part is- what's to brag about a car, versus the look in your woman's eyes when you hold her. The 'rangs' on your fingers versus how she makes you feel. Makes me glad I didn't invest in belt companies. When having someone professing their love to the world has a greater impact. So instead of bring love to the world as Motown did, Kids today are bringing the Hood to the world.

It paints a bleak picture of inner city America to the rest of the world. On Paltalk last night I heard Polish and Czech hip-hoppers with broken 'Anglish' trying to interupt an intellectual discussion. Thinking that every 'tawks dat way' isn't too positive in my eyes.

EC Mayo

By fayette (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 04:47 pm:

angel rap is to be respected just as,(as you call
it i luv you music)if there's a melody and
lyrics in rap that's worth listening to. then
i have no problem for i love all music. i listen
to r&b rap(decent),raggae,jazz, opera,
country, what i don't like and never will
graphic lyrics. that are demeaning.p.s. i never
tire of the i luv you music,cause words like
that brought fayette in this world.

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 11:53 pm:

Here's a question for you.
Is Rap diminishing the pool of potential RnB/Soul singers?
In other words, would the young men and women, but especially the dudes, who are rappers now (famous and aspiring) be RnB/Soul singers if Rap/Hip-Hop had not become the predominate music of young folks?

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 11:55 pm:

BTW, Don't hate on Rap!

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.233) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 12:00 am:

Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, and Brahms (not to mention Richard Strauss) is "real" music.

Mike McLean

By julian (152.163.188.68) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 12:25 am:

It's hard to dance to that stuff.

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.233) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 12:53 am:

I have danced to it with my hands and arms, pretending to be a conductor of an orchestra, all my life.

My Dad did it as a matter of getting up in the morning. He would play his 78's (they were all there was before the LP) and I would swoon.

Dad had fantastic old friends who sold Steinway pianos who would come by as house guests in Packards and wake up in the morning as I would toddle out and I would find them playing 78's of Handel or Bach, and they would pace back and forth on the oriental rugs and argue about the merrits of these wonderful sources of musical pleasure.

I know what it is like to watch such scenes.

I will not let the temptation to be an egotist drag me down to the level where I hurt nice folks.

I am trying to be a decent human being.

I am drunk.

No more hate of those who are obsessed with "Motown"

I have had my fifteen minutes of fame.

I love you all. Whoever you are.

I guess I should really love the sponsers: David and that Balouiough fellow! He has very nice manners. I guess that he is a well educated person. He sure is in a class by himself when it comes to obtaining a webmaster who is top-notch!

Remember this: You feel this desire for a dirty girl. Then you feel this same feeling for a nice girl.

The forum is a nice girl.

However, it is strong enough to take a hit from a nasty fellow like me.

And live to appreciate how much it enjoyed it. And continue to love the old bafoon.

Love you all!

Mike McLean

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 01:04 am:

<< I would find them playing 78's of Handel or Bach,


Those guys must've been pretty old by then. Do you think it was hard getting them into the studio?

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.233) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 01:26 am:

At the time, in 1948, the economics were working for Hal, and his Packard.

Thanks for the question.

Mike McLean

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.233) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 01:39 am:

Drunken silly stuff.

Later, baby!

By john dixon (64.12.97.7) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 01:34 pm:

Yikes!

By fayette (205.188.209.16) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 05:42 pm:

john who let him out the cage???????

double yikes
fayette

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.142) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 05:54 pm:

I gotta stop drinking and fooling around with the forum.

Sorry about that.

Mike McLean

By angel g (80.182.201.74) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 05:29 am:

Kegtapper,someone got to do it...

By medusa9e (66.73.3.155) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 08:54 am:

Well...after all that, I guess M U S I C is just that, M U S I C..'nuff said

By StingBeeLee (155.139.50.14) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 09:53 am:

I like some rap music. Unfortunately, some rappers have taken the low road when it comes to their music. I've always believed that musicians were a liitle better than me when it comes to music and that it took some amount of talent to make it to the big time. Yes, "nasty" music has been around since the 1920's. But it takes some thought to write a song such as "handy man" in which an adult could understand what was meant in the record, but not kids. If you are going to sing/rap about sex, I believe you should write it in such a way as you would have to read between the lines to understand it. It does not take much talent to write "Suck my d**k b***h, or "Eat my p***y, boy." That is not talent. As far as keeping it real, some rappers do, but most of the rappers on TV do not keep it real, most of the things they sing about they don't have, as most are already in six-figure debt. Rap is the one type of music that does keep old school R&B alive, as I think rap is more closer to 60's soul than present day R&B, and the kids at the rec center have asked me to hear the songs that rappers sample, and some have even gone out to purchase the sampled songs.

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 10:00 am:

Well said, StingBeeLee.

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 10:13 am:

Hello StingBeeLee,

I agree with your point about rappers leaving little to the imagination but to say rap in general degrading & foul, is very unfair observation. And you are right when you say that rap is also helping keeping old school music alive. Ask James Brown or Barry White on how rap in one way or the other, exposed them to a younger audience. I never heard of Laura Lee until Salt n Pepa came out with "Whatta Man". So sampling has been good up to a certain extent. Eventually, the rappers will be forced to come up with their own music (with the exception of The Roots) because there's only so much sampling you can do. Hey, whoever thought that George Benson would collaborate with Mary J.(personally I don't think she sings too well but....) on "Seven Days"?

Peace!

By Eli (152.163.188.68) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 10:19 am:

The "bling bling" ghetto mentality is steeped in ignorance and for the most part associated with illitteracy and a lack of a desire for a good education.
In fact, as you may already know there are schols in certain urban areas that teach certain lessons in the form of rap verses because the children cannot grasp the lessons any other way.
In my opinion, that is a sad state.

On any given Saturday around the first of the month, the stores that sell the latest sneakers are packed to the brim, with loud rap tunes blaring from the speakers in the stores and from the suv's with 24 inch rims parked illegally outside.
The scene is repeated just about everywhere in Anyhood Usa.

Some people will litterally kill someone just so they can have "the latest and the greatest this or that" and parading or driving around the hood as if to say "how ya like me now"???

You cannot put the blame on every form of rap as the afforemention artists, for the most part are an exception to the rule, but it is obvious and pitiful that urban youth are sadly brainwashed by the negative aspects of the "bling bling pimp and ho "mentality that is so pervasive in this "artform"

By StingBeeLee (155.139.50.14) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 11:58 am:

Hello Common!
I agree with you! Some of the rappers that you see on the video shows are degrading and nasty, while a few are not.
I believe the record companies would rather have kids listen to the degrading rappers than the ones who have something to say. You have to dig a little deeper to find artists such as the Roots, Common and etc. I'm not saying these artists aren't on the video shows, but they are played in little rotation. I just wish I could hear (on the radio) more rappers rap about conditions in their neighborhood and etc. than the "hardcore" rappers who rap mostly hardcore fantasy.

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 12:30 pm:

>>

Right. It seems at first artists like Grandmaster Flash and Run D.M.C. were descriptive of conditions from whence they came(their raps seemed commentary), but later misguided (in my opinion) rappers began to romanticze and celebrate those conditions, which doesn't do anyone any good.

By Common (209.2.55.170) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 03:36 pm:

StingBeeLee: I think that's the crux of the problem: commericialization. Notice that that's the ONLY type of rap music is the ones that degrade & nasty. I haven't listened to rap since the death of Tupac because quite frankly, while Tupac was filled with contradictions, he was slowly coming to his senses about the music that he was putting out(wanting to leave Death Row for example). Other than that, we're stuck with the Lil Kims & Nellys, who ain't really sayin a damn thing! I mean, I saw lil Kim on Access Hollyweird this weekend, & she is coming out with two cd's, one dirty & one clean. Why bother doing all of that when she can just come out with ONE CD of substance instead talking about some guys runnin a train on her???? This is sheer stupidity & unfortunately, the industry encourages this type of mess & gives contracts to these acts who willing to be "outrageous". Look at Christina Aguliera(sp?). Even she's gone the "sex" route, with her butt crack exposed on the front a man's mag!! LOL!

Julian: See, that's another problem with rap. There's no PROGRESSION. How many times can one rap about shootin somebody or slinging dope? I find it hilarious, for example, that Def Jam owner Russell Simmons, who purports to be a "spiritual" person yet promotes some of these ideas?? It's all about the $$$$$ & unfortunately, young people are caught in the mental crossfire.

Peace!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 06:46 pm:

Common:
First of all, Russell Simmons sold Def Jam to Universal Music Group years ago - he has no say as to what Lyor Cohen and Island/Def Jam choose to release (and chooses not to).

Also, as we should remember, Russell always promoted the positive side of rap/hip-hop - the clever rhymes of Run-DMC, the loverman rap of LL Cool J and the always thought-provoking Public Enemy.

Russell may not criticize in public the rap artists who may curse, insult their mother/sister/girlfriend/wife/some-poor-woman-on-the-street, wear baggy clothes (or almost none at all - see Lil Kim). What he is trying to do is to let the public know - and remind the hip-hop/rap community - that a positive side needs to be further pursued. Hopefully, he will be able to get his point across and enlist the help of others to make this happen.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By J (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 02:33 am:

Did Russell Simmons screw Public Enemy some sort of way? I think I read that somewhere.

Which mag has that Christina Aguilera pic on it that you speak of :oD ?

By Common (209.2.55.169) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

KevGo: Yes, I know that Russell did promote & record those aforementioned acts but also don't forget that Russell hopped on the "gangsta" bandwagon himself (Remember Bo$$ & Jay-O-Felony). I don't know because sometimes Russell says one thing then says something else. Maybe he's "mellowed" out & now realizes that maybe things have gone too far.

J: That's what Chuck D alleges, hence the names for his former label, "Def Scam". There was an article about Lyor Cohen (or "Liar Cohen" according to Chuck D) which talked about his relationships with former & current artists......If I remember correctly, the mag was Maxium & that was a couple of months ago. LOL! For shame, J, for shame! :oD

By Patrick (68.73.196.148) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 01:25 pm:

I am tired of these ASSHOLES talking about being REAL. If they are so real, why do they live in million dollar mansions? If they love the hood so much, why did they leave for posh areas? They say they are giving back to the community, yet they charge $18.99 for an album. Liars!!

By Sly fan (67.115.75.22) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

Patrick: So basically, they are suppose be poverty stricken and not have any signs of upward mobility..right??? Leave it up to you they would never ever leave "the hood"...Keep in mind some of these rappers dont even come from "the hood", ask Will Smith or Puffy...wouldnt you want to live in a nice posh area after you've worked hard and EARNED your money??..I could say something else about your "comment" but I am gonna be nice on the forum...$18.99...havent you heard of Tower, they have a thing called "Sales"..


Russell has always tried to maintain a fine balance on who to sing but here's the ironic thing..a lot of previously mentioned (PE, LL Cool J, Slick Rick) were not found by Russell...It was Rick Rubin (co-founder of Def Jam) Rick was the driving creative force..Russell was the business head..

Yes, Lyor is the main cat behind "the new Def Jam" (which sucks if you ask me..Ja Rule..c'mon really..)Lyor replaced Rick once Rick left to start his own label Def American (which is very successful in the rock arena, I ran into Rick not too long ago).

Take the coporate element out of music of any form and it will grow as it should and you will have less of the negative type of Hip-Hop you see or hear in the mainstream..Speech from Arrested Development has a new release out right now but I bet you wont see it the daytime circuit or in general...something to think about...

There IS positive Hip-Hop out there...

By Sly fan (67.115.75.22) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 02:38 pm:

correction: on who to sign...

By Common (209.2.55.168) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

Slyfan: "havent you heard of Tower, they have a thing called "Sales"..You are dead wrong for that! LOL! Seriously, though, that's exactly what've I've been trying to point out. Commercialism has hurt the genre thus with the type of rap being played. Radio also plays a BIG role in the music as well because they stick to their 40 most popular rap/songs & rotate them every 2-3 hrs. Of course, this makes it harder for not just rap but any other artist that has something of substance or a different style, to break into the mainstream. Quite frankly, I think we should've saw this coming once a lot of the positive/conscious rappers weren't being promoted nor supported as they once were.

Peace!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 03:01 pm:

Sly Fan:
Boy oh boy...Patrick really hit your hot buttons!

You have a point with what you said but I have to admit Patrick does, too. There are many artists, producers and the like who make a damn good living, stay in their neighborhoods and give back to their communities (Run-DMC and the late Jam Master Jay were prime examples; Mary J. Blige still frequents her hometown of New Rochelle; others are the Neville Brothers of New Orleans & Philly's Kenny Gamble - who has helped build mosques & community centers after he moved BACK into the city FROM the 'burbs).

I have a real issue when people like Sean "P-Diddy" Combs describes the Bad-Boy/Sean-John/Justin's image as "ghetto-fabulous" when he himself wasn't raised in a ghetto and sure as hell doesn't live in one now. And look what happened after Jermaine Dupri showed off his mansion, expensive cars & toys on MTV's "Cribs" - the IRS wasted no time looking into his tax records (or lack thereof) and BAM! - Jermaine was left with the clothes on his back (and folks wonder why he really took that VP of A&R job at Arista? Gotta pay the bills).

As for the $18.99 price point - don't get the old retail manager in me started. Like I said earlier, if I had a dollar for every kid who came into my store, buying the latest "joint" ON SALE and asking me for a subway token (or $1.50) to get home, I would not have to worry about financing MY record label!

I'm with you, Sly, on many points but I think this is what Patrick was hitting on.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 03:32 pm:

Isn't it true that whatever racket you're in the bean counters are going to go for the easy option. The rap (and other stuff) that has the most obvious sex and violencs lyrics will get the giggle factor from the schoolkids and become a kind of adolescent cause celebre. That'll pay for your studio time and you might win big. Developing songs and artists, commenting on society, needs commitment from someone with a vision of a future.

The rap acts with something to say are in the same boat as Leonard Cohen, (latter day) Marvin Gaye, or anyone else with bad news to impart. They might get recorded, but they ain't gonna be on pop radio.

The more common kind of foulmouth rap is pure ephemeral pop that will sound just as relevant as I wanna sex you up and Yummy yummy yummy in about fifteen minutes time.

I have spoken.

By Sly fan (67.115.75.22) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 03:48 pm:

Hey whats up Kev: nah...its like this.. why does he have a problem with "these rap guys" living the good life? I dont see him complaining about Ozzy Osbourne (who I am a big fan of...SHAROOONNN!! LOL) who ate birdheads at a company meeting and then some...He is living pretty comfortably in addition to all the other heavy metal acts..why does he pigeon hole "these rap guys"...These cats deserve their success to spend their money however they want..as far as "keeping it real" goes..Ice T lives at the very top of the Hollywood Hills and has given more than any singer, rapper, coporate exec than I have ever seen. Not just his money but his time and he didnt need a cameraman to follow him around doing it... You can draw your own conclusions to his "comment"..


Rappers are no different than any other musicians or execs who make it big..Its ok to move but share the wealth...Robin Leach made a career out of entertainers who lived the good life...once Luther Campbell, Master P and Puffy made the cut (in addition to making the cover of FORBES magazine) it became a problem...these guys do give back to "at risk" communities...they are more visible than a lot of these singers (minus James Brown, Barry White,Issac Hayes who STILL give back and have RESPECT).

Mary J/DMX are from Yonkers. DJ Jazzy Jeff and Will Smith (he will always will be the Fresh Prince to me), Queen Latifah. Jill Scott, The Roots, Mos Def, LL Cool J, Snoop Dogg give back as well..

$18.99..I dont know what store he goes to but Best Buy/Tower has new releases for at least $11.99 or under..

I hear you though Kev...I am very famliar with Mr. Gamble's work in the community..He has always been my hero for the fact that PIR was always in tune with social issues and the community at large...I still have my "Lets Clean Up The Ghetto" lp (yes, I remember)..Beautiful...

You are right Common...I totally agree..

One Love.

By Sly fan (67.115.75.87) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

Correction: Best Buy and Tower have new releases...

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 04:15 pm:

Sly:
Like I said, mi amigo - I'm with you on a few points. There are rock music folks who live the "good life" so why shouldn't rap/hip-hop or R&B artists. If you've earned it, fine. What I have an issue with is folks who try to glamourize something that isn't so damned glamourous to begin with (poverty, the tight dollar, etc). Also, does one have to have the "mansion on the hill" when a nice big house with a picket fence & garage would do (doesn't Snoop Dogg have a big house in California?). All I know is if my label venture ever becomes a multi-million dollar empire, the LAST thing I would buy is a huge mansion, expensive cars and a fly wardrobe because, as Barry White said in and interview, one doesn't know when the success will end.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sly fan (67.115.75.87) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 04:41 pm:

very true..if we didnt learn anything from Hammer..

By Common (209.2.55.169) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

Or Vanilla Ice??? Tee hee hee hee! :o)

Peace!

By Eli (151.197.47.198) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 04:59 pm:

Kev.. I second, third and fourth your "emotion" but I plead the fifth in fear of being incriminated for my take on the whole "ghetto mindset thing"
In my opinion, the big difference betewen the "rockers" and the rappers is that most of the rap oriented nouveau riche types seem to forget that there are things such as taxes, investments,distinguishing fantasy from reality, attitude,intelligence, humility, respect and a host of other things that come into play that seperate the members of the two genres.

By Sly fan (64.169.107.27) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 05:46 pm:

I guess if Will Smith or LL Cool J ate bat heads or made a living off devil worship type lyrics,it wouldn't be all over the headlines..

I also guess Vince Neil and Dee Snider are the result of class and business savvy..

VH1: Behind The Music made the "rockers" a public example what not to do...coked out, strung out, and just about everything else under the sun..

Maybe I too can get on the cover of FORBES and have various successful business ventures just like RATT or WINGER...hmmm??

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

Sly fan,

That's just it, Ozzy Osbourne is paying taxes and investing his money, getting married and raising a family as he bites the head off of bats -- actually he only did that once, years ago, and has been riding on that reputation ever since. He can separate the fantasy of his stage persona from real life.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 05:57 pm:

Bobby:
Hoo-boy...those hip-hoppers at Sigma Sound have really crawled under your skin...
Check out my statement regarding Jermaine Dupri - he showed off his mansion, cars & digs on MTV, the IRS were there in no time after they investigated his tax records (or lack thereof).

Not all rappers fall into the trap you described - Sly Fan pointed out Ice-T as an example of a rap/hip-hop (soon-to-be)legend who took care of the biz and I have to add Percy "Master P" Miller as an example of someone who keeps his feet on the ground as his fortunes rise. And if you check out VH-1's "Behind The Music" rock & pop music had it's share of folks who lived the high life riding on Cloud Eight (I wouldn't dare put them on Cloud Nine with my beloved Temptations! )and came crashing down on their nostrills when reality reared its precious head. From Eric Clapton who spent the early to mid 1970s in a drug-fueled stupor (while creating some great music)to Barry Manilow who went from having #1 hits to damn near bankruptcy in the early 1980s - and I'm not gonna even mention most of the damn hair bands and new wave/Euro-pop singers - rock/pop has its list of damaged goods.

Hip-hop/rap gets the bulk of the spotlight because of its homegrown beginnings and it's cultural beginnings (read - invented by young kids of color). And let's face it - whenever a person of color creates something cool (a new catchphrase, a unique style of clothing, a special music genre) everyone else wants to be down with what has been created. But when folks are only being shown one side of the story, that's when people such as Russell Simmons rush to the mic & camera to try to show the other side.

I'm not trying to bust your chops, Bobby. As you know, I respect and revere everything you have done for music and especially R&B/Soul. But, I'll bet you money that Hall & Oates had suffered "the vapors" at one point just like many rappers I know (who are still recovering).
Respectfully,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sly fan (64.169.107.27) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:04 pm:

I have never seen Ozzy in Forbes or even the wall street section?? I have seen Russell Simmons, Sean Combs, Irv Gotti, Damon Dash etc..

The Cash Money Millionares (little known fact) bought property all over New Orleans and bought the projects that they once lived in and renovated it with new furniture and the works ( I didnt see that in the news)..Same as for Master P..I have yet to hear any thing about bankruptcy or taxes regarding these guys...

The so called rock stars were living that fast life and it caught up with them in a major way ...
I just dont dig double standards thats all...for every "ghetto" there is a "trailer park"...its a state of mind...


When Dee Snider or Ozzy make the cover of Forbes or Money INC, please let me know..

By Sly fan (64.169.107.27) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:09 pm:

Sue: in other words "these rap guys" are doing something right...


singers and tax evasion are old as dirt, please come with a better argument...I could drop a lot of names that would fill the screen..

By Scratcher (65.132.79.93) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:19 pm:

People have the right to spend their money any way they want to. A lot of stereotyping is going on in this thread. As for some rappers not paying their taxes, isn't taxes the reason Edwin Starr relocated to England in 1983? Wasn't David Ruffin imprisoned for tax problems? Marvin Gaye didn't rap but he had tax problems as did numerous rock stars, country stars, sports figures, businessmen, etc. Not paying your taxes, or all of them, is not something unique to rappers.

Jahiem grew up in a New Jersey project and it's kinda hard to eliminate that lifestyle from your being. Simply having money doesn't do it. You can remove yourself from the environment easy enough but the learn behavoir lingers and sometimes never leaves. Those hard life experiences remain and that's where he's coming from. Will Smith could never do gangster rap because he never lived the lifestyle, and to his credit, he doesn't try because it's not him. The hardcore rappers lived it. Would some of you feel better if they rapped about surrying down to a stone soul picnic or wrote songs like "Sugar, Sugar?"

I never understood why some get so upset and passionate about music that people younger than them like. It's their music, not yours. There's plenty of music out there for people who like '60s soul, doowop, funk, jazz, blues, whatever--why does music geared for younger people upset so many of you to the point of stereotyping a whole genre and condemning the dress styles of teenagers and young adults? When most of you were teenagers older people thought you dressed odd and listened to dumb music too.

Pop 40 and Pop 20 radio is not for people over 40 generally, occasionally something will slip in, but it's generally for the 30 and under crowd. It's always been that way, why would you expect it to change because some of you nolonger fit the demographic?

By Sly fan (64.169.107.27) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:26 pm:

Scratcher: Thank you..I didnt wanna drop names but thank you for telling the "truth"...

You too Kev for presenting a balanced viewpoint..

I still love you all ...Just so that everyone knows... No love lost..

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:37 pm:

Did the O'Jays ever threaten the Temptations or pull a drive-by? It's separating fantasy (music) from reality, that some of us are talking about.

By Eli (151.197.121.66) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:38 pm:

Kev and Sly..
I am in total agreement with both of you and I am sorry if I have said anything that was construed as being offensive.
But lets face it..that whole East coast/West coast thing..it is a product of ignorance and a "ghetto mindset".
It goes back to the days in school where you would be walking along minding your own buisness and some "thug" would approach you and say "yo man, where you from, MF"???? That kind of thing.

Of course I respect those who have risen out from under despair and made a difference in the world.
And yes I am aware that the Cash Money guys have "bought the projects".
I am not knocking that segment of society, it is just that there are a bunch of mindless idiots on "both sides of the coin" so th speak that are causing much despair in the biz!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:57 pm:

Dear Gang:
What I've been saying is there are folks in the rap/hip hop community as there are folks in the rock/pop and in the R&B and in the Country community and in the film/TV industry who have fallen on both sides of the spectrum - those who take care of business and those who don't, those who can separate fantasy from reality and those who don't.
This stuff happens no matter what genre your music is in.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:03 pm:

Scratcher:
When I was in record retail, whenever an older customer would complain about the music their kids listen to, I would tell that customer two things:
- Every generation wants to have something they can call their own.
- Hey, it's no different than YOUR parents complaining about YOUR music.

'Nuff said.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (151.197.121.66) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:03 pm:

From my humble observation, and correct me if I am wrong, that in the rap world(and not in all cases) there are two elements that are almost iconoclastic in proportion and seem to be worshipped and they are the lifestyles of Tony Montana in Scarface and that of John Gotti or any other Mafia kingpin.

I am not trying to stereotype, it is just the way it is.

With all that I have said, I am a big fan of rap music and I produce it as well, and mighty well I must add.
I am not a fan of ignorance in any genre, be it "trailer park" or "ghetto"

By john dixon (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:23 pm:

I'm still vibrating with mirth while savoring the mental image of rappers representin' bout surrying down to a stoned soul picnic.
scratcher, you're usually dead serious; thanks for my laugh of the day.

By Sly fan (67.119.53.192) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:44 pm:

Eli: its cool cuz I know where your heart is, I got nothing but love for you...you were part of an experience/movement that gave us the meaning of social awareness and GREAT music...

The media really gives rap a bad rap but then there are some who foolishly fall into the traps..There's no such thing as east coast west coast...thats all media sensation to create drama and sell papers. Its like the soaps..."what is Erica Caine gonna say to Krystol Carrington this week"?? (ORGAN)

Sue: I have a strange feeling Phil Spector might pull a drive by...dont ask me why...(he-he)

By Sly fan (67.119.53.192) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:47 pm:

Sue:Now that I think about it Will Smith did pull out a super soaker on MC Hammer and Biz Markie...ooooohhh trouble...

By Scratcher (65.132.76.135) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:50 pm:

Sue, I could tell you accounts about artists from the '60s and '70s that will shock you, and I'm sure others on this forum can too. To my knowledge the O'Jays and the Tempts' were tight, but the Tempts once got into a confrontation with the Contours.

I know of a recording artist from the '70s who has been locked up for 25 years to date in one of his State's maximum security prisons where they bring your food to you; so you eat, shit and sleep in the same little room; he gets one hour outside his cell to stretch a day. They don't keep you in that long and under those conditions for shoplifting or writing bad checks. A former bass player for Gladys Knight & the Pips is doing prison time right now for his second murder.

I know of a record company owner (not Berry Gordy but almost as popular) who sent a drug dealer from New York on the road with one of his acts (very well known) in the '70s to keep them from going out all times of the night into bad neighborhoods looking for the stuff. I know a couple of promoters who pay a certain very well known artist in cocaine, at the artists' request.

Didn't Diana Ross try to run over somebody...? Murder or maiming by bullet or car is still murder and maiming. The late Alvin Cash was stabbed in a Chicago bar by a female singer known to all the northern soul lovers because he kept messing with her. Ike Turner was known as "Pistol Whipping Ike Turner" in East St. Louis; you don't get a moniker like that because you're a "nice" guy.

Wilson Pickett once chased Ricky Shan off the stage during a show cause Shan arrived after the show started and quietly sat down at his keyboard and started playing. Pickett stopped singing and ran like a madman towards Shan who flew the coop and never came back. One of the Hesitations shot and killed another Hesitation. Only the group was around when it happened and they told police it was a accident. Maybe it was, only they know. Little Willie John knifed a guy at a card game. I could go on and on.

Rap artists are no better and no worse than the artists many of you admire from the '50s, '60s and '70s. You had good and bad guys then and you have good and bad guys now.

And not to demean the projects or project living as some may perceive in my previous post, I know many Ford and other car manufacturers workers who lived in the projects before landing their auto jobs and remained there long after they could have moved away, because they liked it and felt comfortable where they were. IT AIN'T WHERE YOU LIVE IT'S HOW YOU LIVE!

Many raised in project housing had strong parents and good role models and didn't get involved in all the crap that went on around them. They didn't hang out, do drugs, drink wine, make babies or do any of that stuff and would be as awkward doing gangsta rap as Will Smith. On the otherhand, I knew people raised in the suburbs who had good parents who have spent more time in prison than on the streets.

By Sly fan (67.119.53.192) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:50 pm:

Eli and all: We need each other in order to change things for the better and make things better..I believe it will happen..

I know you didnt mean any harm..I understand what you are saying...Its a social mechanism..

Its cool beans over here..

By Eli (151.197.121.66) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 08:01 pm:

Thanks Sly. Thanks for understanding where I was coming from.

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 10:10 pm:

Wow

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 10:38 pm:

Scratcher:
I agree with your point about how one lives and not where is what matters.
My parents were raised in the Hill District of Pittsburgh and lived in housing projects when they got married and started having kids. Yet, they treated their early home like a mansion & made sure my older brothers & sisters participated in the upkeep. In 1969, when they finally bought our first (and only) home on a beautiful, tree-lined street in Rochester NY, the neighbors were shocked - not just because "Negroes" had moved in but we kept our house cleaner and more immaculate than most people on the block.

By the way - to add to your list of "war stories": Dick Clark mentioned in his 1976 book "Rock Roll & Remember" how, during a Caravan of Stars tour, he and other artists had to dodge a gunfight between Billy Stewart & Round Robin - never mind the overt racism black and white artists endured on his tour and other roadshows of its caliber.

Bobby Eli & Sly Fan:
Agreed on Sly's statement - that's why we have these discussions.

Like Julian said - wow.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 10:43 pm:

Scratcher & John Dixon:
Funny you guys should mention the Archies & Laura Nyro - some hip-hop "producer" came into the CD shop last weekend wanting to get "Sugar Sugar" on CD so he could sample it for a single.

Should I have slapped him silly or had him seek professional help...

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 10:45 pm:

Maybe one of those silly threads should be started called
"Ass-Kickin' Artist!"
or
"Sings Beautifully and Can Kick Some Ass!"
or
"Don't F#$k With These Singers!"

:oD

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 10:58 pm:

How about, "Will Make You Swoon but Will Beat Your Ass, Too!"

By Eli (151.197.121.66) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 11:46 pm:

A very, very long time ago in the previous century, in the mid sixties, I befriended the Four Tops at the Uptown theater in Philly.
Their long time guitarist had left and someone had recommended me for the gig, and if my memory serves me correct it probably was "pops" Montague, the manager and all around everything man for Patti Labelle and the Bluebelles .
It was a Motown spectacular and Stevie was there doing Uptight, the Marvelettes with Danger, Heartbreak, Martha and the Vandellas, and the Tops had just released Same old song.
The Tops hired me after my audition with them backstage and everything was "hunky dory" until that fateful day when I got that phone call from Duke telling me that because of the state of racial strife at the time they regretfully had to un-hire me. He was very apologetic but that was the lay of the land at the time.
I was and am oblivious to those kind of things and I thought that music was the bridge that would help join us all together, but it was a very ugly time in our nations history and I was not ffortunate to be a Motown guy.. only in spirit and right here on SD.

By Common (152.163.188.68) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 09:07 am:

Hello everyone,

Scratcher & Slyfan: I second that emotion! Nuff said!

KevGo: I, too, spent a part of my life in the projects & I have good memories of it until I moved out in the early eighties. Everyone looked out for each other, even the folks who were slinging dope & do other shady things. But yes, things were changing because of a new neighbor had moved in: crack. This drug destroyed neighborhoods & families & these are the places that these same rappers come from. I'm in total agreement about rappers need to progress beyond the 'gangsta image' but unfortunately, this is what pays & what the record companies want! No one seems bring up the fact these record companies are just as responsible & as a matter fact, knew that some of these artists were from a criminal element. Interscope severed ties with Death Row after all legal sheningans of Suge Knight, but some execs knew what they were dealing with when they cut the deal with Suge in the first place(don't want to go through the whole NWA/EazyE/Dr. Dre saga). See, I feel, & correct me if I'm wrong, that the companies play a big part in it as well.

By Eli (151.197.46.139) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 09:57 am:

Common,
You are right on point. The companies seem to thrive on that sort of thing and do nothing to stop it.

Ya know, so many of the Detroit and Philly people were "from the projects" but that was , as you have stated when everyone helped and looked out for one another and people took pride of their little corner of the world.
The project houses here had little front lawns with flowers growing on them.

Kenny Gamble's Universal Properties purchased several project communities, knocked them down and built lovely affordable low income town homes on the sites. Thats what I call giving back to the community.

By Patrick (68.73.52.16) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 10:26 am:

"These rap guys" are always boasting about being real and you know damn well what I am talking about and it is only in rap and hip-hop where you find this shit. Who fucking cares? Hip Hop embraces the corporate life more than any other genre of music, but they don't have to shove that shit down their fan's throats all the time! Sure, some of them are down to earth and real, but others go on stage and throw money in the faces of their fans and that is wrong. That is not giving back to the community, it is a way of saying "look where I am."

By Patrick (68.73.52.16) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 10:35 am:

and another thing.....just like what Craig's uncle was talking about in Next Friday. Talking about people loving the hood, yet when they get a load of cash, they get the hell out. Good for them if they do well in the business, but don't come off as a rich man representin the hood when you don't even live there.

By Common (64.12.97.7) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:01 am:

Eli: I really would love for the situation in rap to change. As KevGo & Sly stated previously, you can't continue to rap about being a "gangsta" & have a posh mansion in a wealthy neighborhood. The whole slogan of "keeping it real" looks totally absurd when you're not living that life anymore.

What can we do as fans to change that whole situation? What I did was turn off the radio & don't buy any of rap material that's out there. (And you know, some these R&B singers are just as explicited as their rap counterparts). What makes this ironic, is that WOMEN are the biggest supporters of the genre. Myself as a female, finds this quite troubling, especially considering the fact of how women are perceived & treated in music as well as in videos.

Peace!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:22 am:

Common:
First of all, I commend you for taking a stand regarding rap/hip-hop's message towards women. Please keep in mind that there are some rappers who do respect their ladies and should be supported, not tossed out with the bathwater (Naughty By Nature's Treach, LL Cool J, Common, Speech - just to name a few).

I work for a label that was shut down by its owner for years because almost his entire roster became crack addicts and he didn't want that element to affect the company. So, not every label is guilty of taking advantage of the poor who were subjected to that era - this man was trying NOT to be a part of an industry who eats their young (he even paid the rehab bills for one of his former top-line acts to get cleaned up).

As I said in this and another thread, not all types of music is for everybody. There are some people who get a kick out of the n----r/b---h/ho thing as well as those who dig Common's vibe (whose CD sales are picking up in my store). There are those who dig Li'l Kim spreading her legs on the cover of her CD (never mind what she's rapping about) as well as those who dig MC Lyte & Queen Latifah's message. It's just that the "shock value" thing is what most people are attracted to, which is why the extremes seem to sell.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.77.174) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:28 am:

Do some of you understand that being a recording artist is a form of acting. Would you expect an actress or actor to only play parts they lived? Stevie Wonder wrote "You Are the Sunshine of My Life"; yet, he's never seen a sunshine; was he not being "real" when he did this?

Tavares thought they weren't being real when songs like "Whodunit" and "Heaven Must Be Missing an Angel" was forced on them; they thought the material was bubblegum and they didn't consider themselves bubblegum artist. The Tavares' brothers are descendants of Cape Verdean Africans (Afro-Portuguese) from the Cape Verde Islands. Africans who built their own ships and came to America on their own, and were known as pirates. The bottomline is usually all that matters in the corporate world.

Rap music doesn't upset me as it does some of you because I rarely listen to it; I realize the music wasn't meant for my age-group and I pass. Infact, I've been passing on popular music for the most part since the '80s. Most of the new stuff I buy never make the Top 100 CDs.

Rappers who grew up as bangers and dealers are not being hypocrits when they relate their experiences through rap music--cause they've been there and done dat, that some are no longer living that lifestyle doesn't invalidate what they been through and know firsthand. Outsiders should appreciate the knowledge; they're giving you a peek inside a world and lifestyle that many of you know nothing about, just as the reggae singers of the '60s and '70s did.

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:33 am:

What's interesting is that like 70% of rap is purchased by suburban kids (and grownups, too).

I don't think the "bling, bling - money, cash, women" thing could be shoved down as many folks throats as it is being shoved with out them being desirious of it.

When you go see a James Bond movie, you go to see him use all the fancy gadgets, be in the exotic locations, run with the pretty women, engage in action, etc. Likewise with the videos and image of the "bling, bling" rappers, that's what people want to see - the cars, clothes, women, etc. It's entertainment.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

Scratcher & Julian:
Berry Gordy summed it up in his autobiography - when he was getting ready to film "Lady Sings The Blues" Paramount Pictures asked him, "Does Diana Ross (know how to)act".

His response - "Of course she does, we Black folks have been acting for most of our lives."

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.79.211) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 10:19 pm:

Here's a good article about Hip Hop Music from the Detroit News entitled: Urban Music Movement Transcends Race, Class

http://newsdirectory.com/go/?f=&r=mi&u=www.detnews.com

By stephanie (66.54.1.38) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:45 pm:

People can say what they want. The stuff we are seeing now is NOT the stuff that Melle Mel and Kurtis Blow and Grandmaster Flash were doing. We are seeing images of young black youth and people getting shot and killed and selling drugs and having monstrous sex.

Im with Bobby Eli on this I think there is good and bad rap but the stuff is invading the airwaves and getting really out of hand. If we had the power to thrust MFSB and Motown or other stuff that is good along with hip hop down the throats of the young they would take to it and like it. There was an 8 year old white kid on Maury Povich singing Cry Baby by Garnet Mimms and he was great!!!! The only way he would have even known or heard that song is through his parents because it sure doesnt get much radio play!!!

In the 60s , 70s, and eighties we had a balance and adults were listening to the Beatles and kids were too. I think the reason for these problems is the generation gap that the music has now. Kids listened to the Carpenters and adults did.
Even when Run DMC had those chains around their necks you didnt see TONS of people doing that like you seeing young boys having pants falling off of their hips now. There is a point where you cross the line and I think we have crossed that line. YES some of our Motown artists and other artists have fallen prey to drugs and although that is sad and wrong the image they were portraying was not. Im not a big Whitney Houston fan but my props go out to her because unlike Mariah (who I am a fan of until recently) she is doing drugs but she is not dressing and acting like a slut. Billie Holliday had a sad life and I dont condone what she did but she did not portray the life of a slut in her music. I DO believe its someones business what they do with their money and MAD props go out to those who have helped the community. Im furious that certain artists didnt help the finance the Funk Brothers movie but out of respect for them and the artists Im not going to talk about it.

I agree with Bobby E I think that we have crossed the line and if someone doesnt get a balance on the music its going to get worse. Im all for hip hop but we need to have a balance. You did not see ROCK or RandB invading the airwaves the way you do rap and hip hop right now and you didnt see these dreadful images. Yeah Gene Simmons and KISS and Alice Cooper tread the line in their day but they were harmless and not promoting hate and violence. They looked violent but people knew it was shock value and fun these kids are taking this rap stuff seriously and its getting them at a young age and they are trying to live it. The record companies KNOW this and they dont care I hold THEM responsible not the artists!!! I have NO respect for Russell Simmons Im sorry. He is a good businessman and thats it.

Queen Latifah and ICE-T got out and did something positive. Now ICE-T is on Law and Order. Someone above said music is acting and that is true but for Stevie to sing "You are the Sunshine of my Life" and to write the way he does and we know he doesnt have ghostwriters for HIM to see this stuff and be blind. Imagine how harmful these images are for the young kids who DO see and comprehend quicker than adults.
Im with Bobby on this one we have gone over the line..
Stephanie

By RD (63.188.33.32) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 12:46 am:

It's unbelievable that some of you are holding up the potheads, heroin addicts, cokefiends, wineheads, pill poppers and alcoholics the sixties, seventies and eighties as paragons of virtue.

Some on this forum who crucify rap music and singers like Ashanti would jump through hoops of fire to produce some tracks on their multi-platinum selling CDs. Who is really being real here?

What line has rap gone over? Who drew the line? Are you suggesting censorship? This is America, censorship is a no, no here--we have freedom of speech and expression guaranteed by the Constitution.

By Eli (151.197.120.253) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 01:05 am:

Thanks Steph!!
I sure do appreciate it and I am glad that you do know what time it is!!

Peace and love,
B.E..

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 01:12 am:

When I go to the Hip-Hop Summit downtown in the morning I will be thinking of you folks!

By Sly fan (64.169.106.192) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 02:15 pm:

Being a Hip-Hop fanatic (pre Murder Inc,lol) and just a plain ol music junkie..I totally agree with you Steph..That was very well said..

There needs to be a balance...for instance radio stations will NOT play anything from an independent artist...The only thing that the majors are pushing is the BS thats out there...We have to support whats positive and promote that to the fullest because truth be told..the request line is dead..For instance, call up the hottest radio station in your town and request a Lauryn Hill, Talib Kweli or De La Soul record...you will get turned down flat. But they will give you suggestions like Lil Kim or Ja Rule...This is what kids are being exposed to...plain ol' bulls--t!! I can deal with that but as Steph and I have been stressing...there needs to be balance..

I know Motown and Philly, Chi Sounds, Punk, Funk, Reggae, Disco, Salsa, Rock, Afro Cuban etc just like I know my Hip-Hop in the back of my hand..thats because my parents and family educated me...Plus radio was way different than it is now (just as it is the same...).

Plus, back in the day you had variety shows!! Kids dont have that now..I remember watching Sly Stone and Tom Jones on the Midnite Special!!! The O'Jays/Roy Clark on Dinah Shore!!! Kids dont have that variety now...all they have is American (losers in the music business created this show) Idol...

The music that these kids are getting now is NOT Hip-Hop...I remember seeing The Fat Boys, Kurtis Blow and Public Enemy as kid and it changed my life forever...Just watching Grandmaster Flash get busy on the turntables STILL to this day gives me a thrill...Kids dont have that now and its time THE PEOPLE take it back and make a change...


I grew up listening to Melle Mel, Scorp, Cowboy,Love Bug, Run DMC and they came for THE tuffest neighborhoods around...A lot of these cats from the "old school" (except Run DMC who came from Queens) were from NY street gangs and got tired of the bs and said we want to change our lifestyle...Mid 70's we are talking about...everybody wasnt feeling disco and three gentlemen decided to take matters into their own hands and decided to throw their own block parties..Afrika Bambaataa, Kool Herc and Grand Master Flash would throw parties at the neighborhood rec centers and the parks (FOR FREE!!) and they would play records by Bo Diddley, The Wild Magnolias, James Brown, Kraftwerk, Rolling Stones and the kids would go wild because it was something that was new and fresh to them...Breakdancer, MC's (rappers), Graf artists, etc. We are talking about the SOUTH BRONX, WEST BRONX and HARLEM where all of this was going down...These three guys as well as others in their camp became heroes in their communities and they had RESPECT for the music and each other..This is PRE "Rappers Delight"....some say that record was the kiss of death for hip-hop culture, because it turned into a business. Business and Culture DONT mix..

Right now, you dont need to have talent to make it in the business anymore...otherwise, you see more heavy set singers in the game (lol)..To be a rapper now, you really dont need any talent, just a good connection and good marketing team..that simple...Ask Lil' Kim or Ja Rule...

To ALL: PLEASE RENT "BROWN SUGAR" with Queen Latifah, Mos Def,etc..a lot of what we have been talking about is in this film...Trust me you will understand but love it too...


RD: F--k Ashanti...Lets SEE her make it to album #10...Let alone 5...Can you imagine Ashanti's Grestest Hits vol. 2? An oxy moron if I ever heard one..

Peace!!!

By Sly fan (64.169.106.192) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 02:20 pm:

correction: Greatest Hits..

By Eli (151.197.41.97) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 04:14 pm:

Sly Fan..
Affirmative on all counts my brother!!
Hip hop was not created with the intention of evolving into its present state.
It was a feel good thing with mostly a positive message.
I must give my props to its forebearers and creators for giving us this extention of a wonderful African American musical heritage.
It is only when this artform started to get abused that it took on the negative and overt
materialistic and misogynistic form that it has taken and in my opinion, it has gotten out of hand when the record companies let it .
Unfortunately, some of the characters in the game are self destructing right before our eyes partially of being naieve to the "business" of the record business and they only care about the
"fringe benefits" albeit for the short term, but the cream does rise to the top.

As far as Ashanti and the other similar cookie cutter acts are concerned, forgive my bluntness but they could probably suck a mean d**k!!!!
Nuff said!!

By Patrick (68.73.197.157) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 04:25 pm:

What sucks today is that all the younger kids (11-18) buy what they see rather than what they hear. It is all about image and not about talent for the most part and this goes for all genres on MTV. All the artists on MTV would be nothing if it weren't for their videos being played. Today, there is no such thing as musicians among our younger generation. They see these artists as entertainers and nothing more.

By RD (63.188.32.151) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 04:43 pm:

Sly Fan: You missed my point, which doesn't surprised me. I wasn't stating my opinion about Ashanti's singing skills or lack of, I was saying that any producer from the '60s or '70s would love to get the call to produce somebody like her and enjoy the fruits of the big budget and points that go along with the job. If this happens watch how quick some change their tune. You're reading a lot of sour grapes, similar to what the popular songwriters of the '40s and '50s spouted when rock 'n roll took over.

To the rest, if you want people to believe your takes about how you think rap music is so demeaning and the anti-christ then stop stating how much you love 50 Cents and Dr. Dre. To do so is hypocritical. Or, you've only heard the "clean" version of The Chronic.

If some are so pathetic at raising children that rap music has become your kids' main influence then shame on you for failing parenting 101.

As for hip hop changing, music evolves and fans age. The people who listened to Kurtis Blow and the Sugar Hill Gang are in their forties now. Do you really expect teenagers and people in their twenties to relate to THEM?

By paulie3shoes (151.197.41.97) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 04:44 pm:

hey youse guise..its ol paulie(over here)
not fer nuttin but beins dat i am one o' dem wiseguy types, capice??%^& wen we whack sumbody we got a good reason ta whack em!
we dont whack nobody cuz he got sum sneekers or a chain or sumtin, capice??#$%*(
drive bys went out wit al capone(rest his soul)
IF WE GONNA WHACK SOMEBODY DERE BETTER BE A GOOD ENUF RESON TO
ALSO WE RESPECT OUR WIMMEN AN; KIDS

If one our kids get caught disrespecctin us we
teach em a lessin dat dey never fergets,get my drift?$%^*()
All dis bull***T wit dese rap peep;e dey outta stop dat s**t
det try to immitate my goomba john gotti(rest his soul) dey even got sum s**t head took his name!! his NAME..imagine dat..my goomba must be rollin over in his grave cuz o' dat!!
vagarooch!marrone..michelamicheline!@#$%^&*()
he outta come back frum da udder side an' show him who da REAL Gotti is!!capice??@#$%^&)CAPICE@#$%^&*
dis kinda t'ing upsets paulie(over here)
wheres my bromo seltzer???

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 12:45 am:

"Paulie3shoes"

You are tripping because some rappers emulate (for lack of a better word) gangsters but you do it often and are doing it right now!

What is up with your logic? Do as you say and not as you do, huh?

So it's alright when some people are belligerent and not others. Or if it's state sponsored it's ok, huh?

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 02:45 pm:

I saw the coolest bumper sticker yesterday:

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they're open

My problem with Rap and Hip Hop is actually my cousin's problem. He started a band that saw decent fame, travelled the world etc. The bands he influenced got even bigger, Mega. My cousin can come up with a rap or rock hook like a Mofo.
His musical instrument? Sampler
He scratches, bangs some drums, thrashes a guitar.

He's getting serious about guitar though. Why? Because he has such an inner expression to release, that, MACHINEs aren't doing it any more. He's been pressing buttons since he was 14. He brought it to a high degree of craft. But, he see's me playing Bebop or sitting in at some part in any style or genre and he say's he'd give it all up to play a real instrument in an ensemble. I know when his checks come in he doesn't think of me playing for $ 3.00 in a bar, but, you see, MONEY is the power, is the happiness IF only temporary. He and I always go back to Ensemble playing.

Anyway, that's his beef... that "noone plays a traditional instrument anymore and the music has suffered because of it. Hopefully electronics will be seen more as a tool than an instument, and NOT a whole BAND. He's making sure his son learns music from the Ground Up - Theory!

If I may generalize
The societal (generational) differences mentioned in this thread: that the world has become an angrier and greedier place and values and morals have gone to shit. I'd agree. Noone killed for Nike's in 1969. Noone shot up a schoolyard because they weren't in the Clique.

It all starts with GREED which leads to paranoia to protection (muscle), to isolationism, to anger. It starts from the Top Down: the wealthy, the "leaders", politicians and systems to protect the wealth and power 'acquired' - not necessarily earned.

How we went from killing President's for turf to killing jimmy his shoes is a sickening shame. Start with Greed and drill down another of its twisted limbs towards Materialism and the insidious trait Comparison (which creates violence).

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 09:15 pm:

'Nuff said!

By Patrick (68.74.28.213) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 09:30 pm:

Even Chuck D. said that somebody pick up some instruments sooner or later becuase everyone is sampling from the same James Brown and Led Zeppelin songs.

By paulie3shoes (151.197.119.98) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 10:09 pm:

julian, dis here is paulie(over here)
waddya mean emulate?? i am da real t'ing an' ya betta believe it pal!! da genuine artikle an s**t

do ya tink dis is playtime??do ta tink dis is funny,i'll show ya funny pal@#$%^&*()( well i aint laffin, capice?#$%^&*()

By Sly fan (64.169.107.67) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:51 am:

RD:1. Learn your tenses before entering a convo. (Newsflash: the word is "surprise".) Also, learn how to state your point clearly...I am not Harry Houdini or Miss Cleo...its all good though..

2.Ashanti is a poor example to pick when there is Alicia Keys or Faith Evans...


3. Of course kids would not get into the old school artists such as the great Kurtis Blow but Talib Kweli,Common,Redman and Method Man, Erick Sermon, Nas, Slum Village put out some pretty good records and they are from the "new school" w/SKILLS and flawless production. Plus their subject matter spans way beyond "Ice" and "Rims"..There are way too many talented artists..Thus, no kid should be subject to Lil Kim or Ja Fool oops I mean rule. Although they should KNOW who Kurtis Blow and Run DMC are because if you dont know where you came from..where the f-ck are you going??? I KNOW who BO DIDDLEY and JACKIE WILSON are and what they stood for (yet they did not come out in "my generation")...They PAVED the way for us to do what we do now...Its a thing called HERITAGE....


Eli: Thanx a mil!! I gotta tell it like it is...Radio is a business and the kids are suffering because of it...Video too plays a major role...You got A&R's who dont know anything about Hip-Hop and its culture making major decisions...Its a sad state in music...But what goes up must come down..universal law never fails..


Peace!

By Sly fan (64.169.107.67) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:53 am:

Im out folks!! I shed some light and said my piece...


One Love..

By RD (63.188.32.162) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:23 am:

Sly Fan, get a life, I've forgotten more than you ever knew. Maybe you could read through the BS if you stopped sucking up so much. How was Ashanti a bad example when she had a multi-platinum selling CD and won two Grammies? If she had sampled some of these old school songwriters' songs they'll be praising her to high hell like they do the rappers who have.

BTW, I know the word is surprise, why don't you point out the numerous typos, mispellings, and bad grammer of the ones you praised on this forum.

By RD (63.188.32.162) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:25 am:

typo, should be praise on this forum.

By Brian (64.12.97.7) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 08:59 am:

We're all in trouble here if typos and grammer gaffes are the subject of SF's scrutiny. What a cheap shot! By "Convo," did you mean conversation spelled c-o-n-v-e-r-s-a-t-i-o-n? The Ellipsis (...) is always three periods (no spaces) never two, never four, always three.

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:26 am:

I thought we were having a civilized debate. How did it turn so acrimonious? C'mon, relate, relax & release. Yall have a good day! :o)


Peace!

By Eli (68.162.96.216) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:29 am:

Hey Sly..
I second the emotion!!!

And once again Ashanti sucks..in more ways tan one..capice??
What talent. She sampled Outstanding by the Gap Band and wrote that awful song Happy around the sample.

Please, spare me.

By RD (64.159.100.187) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:47 am:

Sly Fan wasn't your idol Sly Stone's career short circuited because of drug abuse? So why are you a Sly Fan? The older generation can't point fingers.

It's one thing to criticize Ashanti's music or singing but to attack her personally like Bobby Eli has done is wrong, offensive, and totally inappropriate for this or any public forum. How would he feel if somebody said the same about his daughter or wife?

By DF (208.27.111.121) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:20 am:

I've stop criticizing hip hop or any other art form. I would just listen to my jazz, deep house or any other form of music, and educate and inform anyone who was interested.

For example, instead of attacking an artist like Kenny G, which I used to do heavily, I now educate as many people as possible on the music of another KG, Kenny Garrett. Point is this: give alternatives instead of critisizing. Peace.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 11:54 am:

I'm enclined to agree with DF.
Rap is an art form that you either take or leave like one would a Jackson Pollock (sp) painting--leave--, or a Gary Lewis and The Playboys Greatest Hits LP--take--or a Gary Grimshaw poster--steal if I have to--.
As an aside....
.....I wonder if 30 years from now, people will study the rap "culture" in the same way people study disco, probably its closest parallel in popular culture. I don't read The Journal Of Popular Culture from Bowling Green University, but it would be interesting to see if someone there has taken a serious comparative look at it.

Besides, in 5 or 10 years we'll probably be arguing about some other musical trend.....

By Eli (151.197.112.114) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 12:21 pm:

RD..I demand an apology for that insult as it was un called for and you know it was.
I have the right to my opinion per the first ammendment of the constitution .!!!
If you do not like my posts then dont read them!!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 12:54 pm:

Okay Folks...
Relax...take a deep breath....repeat.
RD & DF have made a point, folks - every generation and every genre of music has had it's share of ups & downs, vices & habits, etc. While Ashanti's vocals may sound flat (and are flat to a degree - sorry, RD), a couple of generations ago folks said Diana Ross was too nasal with her singing. In the 1960s, Ray Charles' career almost went straight to hell because of his drug convictions - today Scott Weiland (sp) of the rock group Stone Temple Pilots is going through the same damn thing.
To point fingers at one culture's problems when the other has s--t of it's own is hypocritical - which is why I don't criticize music I don't like. I may not agree with the message some artists have but then again the message may be for the fan of that act, not for me.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Common (209.2.55.171) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 12:58 pm:

"To point fingers at one culture's problems when the other has s--t of it's own is hypocritical - which is why I don't criticize music I don't like."

Amen to that KevGo! ;o)

Peace!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 01:07 pm:

Hey RD:
In defense of Bobby Eli & Sly Fan, they were not attacking Ashanti as a person. Bobby was pointing out a fact - she wrote lyrics to songs that already exist, tunes that have been sampled to death. The only ones getting rich are folks such as Charlie Wilson and El Debarge. One can only go so far doing that (as Sly Fan pointed out with the "10th album" comment)before their audience wants to hear some progress from that artist.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By stephanie (66.54.1.38) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 05:34 pm:

RD!!!
I respect your opinion and I know that you are trying to say that we admire drug addicts just because they are legends, or people who have done wrong. I THINK I know where you are coming from if Im wrong you can correct me.

My earlier posting I was saying yes some of the legends had drug and alcohol problems and even tons of sex like a lot of other people do who are not personalities. People have been the same for hundreds of years. All Im saying is what they did in private was private they were not being personas of that private life. As a matter of fact if you remember the old Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland musicals we didnt know until years later that the studio was pumping those child stars full of pills to get up and go to sleep. Judy Garland got used to it and couldnt break away from it although Mickey managed too. Some of those people then got hooked because of no control of their own. If you know anything about Judy Garland you know what Im talking about. They had her taking sleeping pills and chicken soup to keep her weight down and after years of this she got addicted.

The music today is not only personifying horrible things but its making it seem like its ok...I understand what you are trying to say and Im not downing you for it although I dont totally agree.
But we are here to agree and disagree OH and by the way I dont think Ashanti can sing. I WILL say this if Bobby Eli or KevGo or one of the greats did get the call to produce someone like her or Lil Kim I bet they could give both of them a new sound, I would like to see them get the call so they could bring the real music back and no more
freakin drum machines..
Stephanie
PS We can agree to disagree....I do enjoy the discourse and difference of opinion and Im in no way trying to diss you..

By Common (209.2.55.170) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 05:44 pm:

Stephanie: But isn't it true that the big studios back in the day, controlled the lives of their actors, thus forcing them to take pills to wake up, lose weight, go to sleep etc.? That the big studios had the money to pay off gossip columinists so they wouldn't divulge any "dirt" that they knew on their stars. I think the whole issue here is the media & what they chose to play up/ play down. That's another reason why some of the negative images in rap get the type of hype that it does. Sex & Violence fascinates the masses, unfortunately. When you have rappers who have something to say & have don't have the type of hype as their "gangsta" counterparts, then you have to wonder in who's interest is it to portray only this side of rap/hip hop culture?

Peace!

By Eli (151.197.112.114) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 05:44 pm:

Hi Steph..
You rule for sure!!
You are a very sensible person and I do appreciate your candor.
I wish that everyone could be as open minded as you.

B.E.

By Vonnie (152.163.188.68) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 06:41 pm:

RD,

I totally agree with what you said about Bobby Eli's comments on Ashanti. I have a daughter and I did not understand what his comments had to do with her singing or non singing ability. I know Bobby very well and apparently he thought he was being hip, but it was plain stupid in my book. Every one has a first amendment right, and some people know how to use that right appropriatly.

Vonnie

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:08 pm:

Uh-oh, Gang....
I think this whole Ashanti thing has been blown out of proportion and folks are reading into something that wasn't really said.
Like I said before and I'll say it again, what mi amigo Eli was trying to say is that this particular artist lacks many talents - singing (she IS flat, gang..), songwriting (interesting lyrics but she needs to - if I may paraphrase Elton John - "grow some musical funk of her own" and not sample what guys such as Puffy and Jay-Z have already beaten over the trees) and overall stage prescence (she really didn't liven up the crowd in the last few of her gigs). She and many of these current artists - young and old - are the reason why it is sad that Cholly Atkins left this earth when we need him the most. Bobby may have been a pit passionate about his feelings regarding this matter but then again he, like many of us, hold a standard of excellence that may not waver.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Vonnie (205.188.209.109) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:24 pm:

KevGo,

What I am referring to is the post of Saturday 27th at 4:14pm. The line read suck a mean d**k, what does that line have to do with anything? The forum can do without that kind of rubbish talk. It is disrespectful to me as a woman, and a mother.

Vonnie

By Eli (151.197.112.114) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:24 pm:

I was talking about her SINGING ..period!!!!!

By Eli (151.197.112.114) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:35 pm:

Thanks Kev,
You are a true pal!!!

And why is everybody trippin'???

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 08:27 pm:

Vonnie:
I saw that comment that was posted. I will admit I missed that one. Like I said in my post, Bobby may have been a bit passionate regarding this issue and gone overboard. I apologize if I got myself in the middle of something that should have been left alone.

Bobby:
You know I will always have your back good or bad. That's what friends are for. No matter how we feel about the industry & its players, we as the "veterans" have got to watch even our own selves and make sure we don't say things that are out of line.

There, folks. I now bow out of this discussion.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (151.197.112.114) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:37 pm:

I am sorry if I have offened anyone and I must say goodbye to the forum.
It has been a wonderful part of my life and I have met some wonderful people but unfortunately
at thus time I must bow out.
True, I will miss everyone but it is something I
must do at this time.

By medusa9e (66.73.15.203) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:21 pm:

Eli,
I haven't been here that long, but I do wish U well N whatever it is U must do.
Take Care...and Keep Us N Mind, If U can't Keep N Touch...but if U can Keep in touch, please do that 2 (s m i l e).

By medusa9e (66.73.15.203) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:30 pm:

I just realize, I started this Subject about Rap replacing Real Music. I'm so sorry, I didn't mean 4 it 2 get so out of hand. I thought we were all adults here and we have freedom of speech (chats, writings, forum responds etc). A lot of things R said and done that every one will not agreee with, but...that's Y this is a forum, everyone voices their own opinions. I've disagreed with a lot of things I've read here, but not offended because I know how 2 live and I know how I live, so what's with the.......????

By RD (63.188.32.37) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 12:13 am:

Eli, made amends with Friday, a person I don't even know, and I'll do the same with you. People have disagreements and blow up all the time especially when you're talking about music, religion and sports. I've been in arguments about the Browns' draft picks today and yesterday that make this seem like nothing. Butch Davis drafted a center in the first round and a long snapper in the fourth, can you believe that?

By medusa9e (66.73.7.148) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 08:30 am:

hello..and yesss,

I don't know much about football, but I do know if people on this forum didn't voice their opinioin, there wouldn't B any "Forum"...and yes I was wrong about not getting offended, I did, when that person talked about Detroit, but i kinda made a joke of it N the end.
We R all adults here, and we should B able 2 respect eachother ideas, comments, opinions, and responses, even when we don't agree with them...but just N case the comment hits home, we can let the person know how we feel about it, maybe joke about it and end it, not keep getting soo upset about. MOST of us R NOT personal friends with celebrities, so...what? and these celebrities don't even know us soooo. A REAL celebrity has sense enough 2 know he/she is out on the front line and fans and non fans will say thing that R not always positive.
Then who knows, when a person is a celebrity themselves OR if they just rub elbows with celebrities, WHO KNOWS what's going on...OK?
We hear stuff about celebrities all the time, Y haven't ANY celebrity stood up and said something yet? U know Y? they don't care what U say or think, "just buy my CD's, haircreme, magazines,glasses cologne, Rims, clothing items,
etc" A person N the Limelight thinks different than a person who is NOT..., we R called consumers~~~Let Me Talk!!!

By Common (209.2.55.171) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 08:49 am:

Medusa9e: I totally agree with you. I have enjoyed this topic & glad that you created the thread. I enjoy reading the different opinions & comments. If we all thought alike, the world would be a boring place. Diversity makes the world go around! Have a good one everybody! :o)

Peace!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 09:53 am:

Bobby,
I'll call you today.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 09:58 am:

Medusa,
Don't feel responsible for anything that happens here. Your thread was a good one. Things have a way of getting out of hand here from time to time. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last.I suppose we tend to take our music a little too seriously at times. However, you are correct. this is a forum and all who come here should be allowed to have their say.

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 09:59 am:

HEY RALPH,YOU MAY HAVE TO CALL OUT THE FORUM POLICE IN FULL RIOT GEAR FOR THIS ONE!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 10:06 am:

R&B,
Maybe you can pull one of your interesting type threads out of your Magic Thread Hat and make all this go away.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 11:47 am:

Medusa9e:
I'm with Ralph on this one. You created one of the most dynamic threads I've ever contributed to. If anything, it made me think - and rethink - my position on certain types of music and genres. As a result, I hope it helped me be a little more understanding about music that does - and doesn't - appeal to me.

As for what happened with Bobby & Vonnie - they are two dear friends who I love & admire. I hope this will be seen as a misunderstanding and move on from this topic.

Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Vonnie (67.40.203.32) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 12:10 pm:

Medusa9e:
I am in agreement that this was and still is a very topical thread. I did not intend for it to get out of hand. Bobby and I love SD and our new found friend. I expressed my opinion and that is what seemed to cause friction. Bobby and I don't always agree on everything even though we are a couple. We share our love for each other and our love of music, we however are two separate individuals who express ourselves differently. As it has been stated many times on this forum, we are here to voice our opinions and everyone has one. So let us get on with the real deal IT'S THE MUSIC.

Vonnie

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 02:15 pm:

Thanks Vonnie. OK gang..Let it be...

By medusa9e (66.73.11.65) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 02:29 pm:

...so let the music play...and everyone hava nice day~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
glad all this stuff is over,now on with the shoe!!!!S M I L E

By medua9e (66.73.11.65) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 02:30 pm:

...so let the music play...and everyone hava nice day~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
glad all this stuff is over,now on with the show!!!!S M I L E