By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.7) on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 06:46 pm:

Can anyone verify if the Freddy Butler that recorded on the Samo,Kapp,starmaker labels and also the superb album of 'A dab of Soul' on the Kapp label is the same guy as Freddie Butler?

The Freddie Butler that cut the superb 'Save your love for me/all is well' on the Wheelsville record label(no.10001).

Many thanks.
Mel.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:35 am:

Mel - Yes it's the same (late) Freddie Butler on all the recordings you mention. He also had a 45 on the M&M label.
Graham

By Joe Moorehouse (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:45 am:

At least the first three Freddie Butler singles are on Sam Motley labels--two on M&M, and one on Samo.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:54 am:

Hi Joe,
I think his Starmaker 45 - "I Told You So" - would have been his first. Sam told me that he got Freddie from Mike Hanks, which Mike wasn't very happy about.
Graham

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.45) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 02:55 am:

Thanks fella's,
I thought it was,
the 45 on M&M is called 'pitter patter'
many thanks.
mel.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 05:35 am:

Mel thanks for reminding us of this 5 star artist

By Joe Moorehouse (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 07:56 am:

Graham, I forgot all about that Starmaker 45--I'm sure you're right that it was earlier. The bigger news in your note is that you found Sam Motley! I've been asking people for years if they knew where he was! Is he still local? Full of good information?

By MEL&THEN SOME9 (195.219.7.96) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 10:51 am:

David,
a great album by a great artist.
I always remember years ago when Freddy's 'Thats when I need you/give me lots of lovin'was once touted as Ed Wingate!
And was/still is a very rare Kapp records bootleg.

Regards the 'Dab of Soul' tracks,
I was lucky enough to get the album on tape about 20yrs ago when it was a very rare and sought after album,along with the other ultra-rare album of The Hesitations also on Kapp.

I just had the Hesitations album on a Kapp promotional copy here with me last night.I was passing it on to a mate who bought it from a dealer mate of mine for 100 pounds.Which isnt bad,as it is a white Kapp promo copy.

I also at long last,
finally got my Emmanuel Laskey on Wild Deuce to put with the others.(yawn)

More useless info regards Freddy on 'a dab of soul'his version of 'Watch yourself'
the Al Gardner/Tony Hestor record
but titled as 'She's foolin'you'.

The sheer brilliance of Mr.Jack Ashford &co.
with the Legendary 'Pied Piper'productions.
Mel.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 10:37 pm:

Hi Joe,
Yes, I managed to track Sam down in Detroit - it took me a few years!
He told some good stories and he's a great guy. I'm just about to send him another tape of his stuff on Samo, M&M and Raldo, and will call him once I know he's got it.
Mel, his other M&M 45 is called "It Was You."
Cheers, Graham

By Ian W (194.75.128.2) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 06:27 am:

Hi chaps,
The Emanuel Lasky record Mel mentioned has been on eBay a few times recently! Is it very rare on the Thelma label? I've never seen a copy and would love one!

By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.97.7) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 09:03 am:

Ian, I've never seen a copy of Lucky to Be Loved By You on Thelma and have never spoken with anyone who has. It may be that it was assigned a Thelma number, but was released only on Wild Deuce. Were one to turn up it would certainly command a substantial sum.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.157) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:15 am:

Hi Guyz,

I never found Thelma 103 during my "collecting years". I have never thought about the possibility that my WD 1003 could be the answer! Anyway, here is a scan.



I also found the Freddy Butler Samo single deep down in my singles collection. Great classy voice!



Other side is "The Signifying Monkey". Same writers & pruducers. Number is 449.

Lars

By Scratcher (65.132.76.145) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:40 am:

It still amazes me the fascination we have with 45s that is practically non existent with cassettes, eight tracks or compact disks. There is something magical about a 45 rpm record. We assume so many things just by looking at a label scan or holding the record in our hands. There's a lot of info in a small area: the location of the recording company, the writers/producers, arrangers, artists, publishing company, performance rights affiliation, artwork, catalog number, time, matrix numbers. Then you got the flip side. Nothing before it or after it really compares.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 12:11 pm:

Scratcher:
That's why I never got rid of my 45s and will always buy old singles when I'm around flea markets, street vendors & garage sales.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.76.145) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 01:02 pm:

Me too, Kev. I go on missions to flea markets, goodwills, yard sales, etc. looking for 45s and old LPs.

By TonyRussi (68.210.2.104) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 01:25 pm:

To me, no matter what the "Tekkies" say 45's had the best sound.

By Heikki (62.71.79.239) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 02:05 pm:

Hi KevGo and Scratcher!
I too prefer my vinyls - but not my 78s, though - to some of these cd's. On one hand, I guess, it's nostalgia, but on the other hand it's also the sound. I know that this is an on-going dispute, but I think on most vinyls the sound is better - or should I put it "different" - than on cd's. This concerns especially the tough ones, like Phil Spector; and much of Motown.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 10:18 pm:

Even though CDs are smaller and have tremendous advantages - I still find 45s to be more ergonomic, and as scrather pointed out - they offer so much information too.
Great scans Lars!
Graham

By acooolcat (61.30.125.3) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 09:23 am:

Lars - that Wild Deuce 45 by Emanuel Laskey wasn't released on the Thelma label. And the fact it is numbered 1003 is purely coincidental, there was no issue #103 on Thelma.
Cheers,
Graham

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.79) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:16 am:

Graham,
thanks for letting us know about the unissued Thelma 45, now we can all stop looking for it.
MEL

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.157) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 12:41 pm:

Never say never... didn't we just found Solid Hit 108...35 odd years later(:-)!

Lars

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 02:05 pm:

Can I just say that Graham's contribution to this site is immense.

This latest offering is no exception, a fantastic image of Freddy Butler.

He'll comment on it later. Meanwhile thanks again Graham!

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.51) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 02:08 pm:

Thanks David and Graham,
One Coolcat for sure.
mel.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 02:19 pm:

Graham also sends in this FB scan. Note the name Joe Hunter. I'd love to know how many labels his name appears on.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.90) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 02:38 pm:

David or Graham,
is the flip side to this called 'pitter patter'?
with thanks
Mel.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 09:05 pm:

Thanks David, I'm pretty sure the photo shows - left to right - Freddy on guitar, Clifford Mack on drums, Al Jackson on sax' and James Jamerson on bass. I'm not where or when it was taken - but it's outside. It could be the State Faiground on 8 Mile, or Jackson Park in Windsor (Canada), or...
My guess is it's around 1966.
Mel - I can't rememeber what's on the flp to this M & M 45 - but it's not Pitter Patter. I'll have to look when I get home.
Lars - Thelma designated a 45 to number 103 - but it was never released.
Cheers,
Graham

By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:37 pm:

Great pictures, Graham. Thanks!

I think Pitter Patter is the M&M record that has a navy blue label but the logo is across the top, rather than down the left side, and the typeface is thick and serifless. The M&M single I have by Freddie Butler is on a yellow label--I'm Gonna Be with You b/w One Night. Great record, and made cooler because the label includes the company address and personnel listing. The players include Roosevelt Fountain (who recorded much later for another Sam Motley label, Prince-Adams), Rudolph Robinson (never seen his full first name on a record before!), Henry Powell, and Frank McDaniels. It was pressed at ARP and the label color and typeface are very similar to those used for the earliest Motown releases pressed there.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:50 pm:

Joe - I think Freddy played guitar on the Prince Adams label 45 too...a song titled "Red Pepper."
What's the address on the label you have?
Graham

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.77) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 11:18 pm:

Thanks for that Joe.

By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.97.7) on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 07:23 am:

The address on I'm Gonna Be with You is:
3310 E. Lafayette, Detroit 7, Michigan.
Telephone number: LO-8-1398

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 09:11 pm:

Thanks Joe.
Mel - The flip to the above M and M label scan is titled "My Troubles."
Here's what I have listed on Detroit labels;

Star Maker #1930 (1/1963)
I Told You So / This Road

M and M # 331/332 (c. 1963)
Pitter Patter / Boogie Twist

M and M # 711/712 (c. 1963)
My Troubles / It Was You

Wheelsville # 1001
Save Your Love For Me baby / All Is Well

Does anyone have details of other 45s on the (Detroit) M and M label by The Equalles and Al Barkle?

Cheers, Graham

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.99) on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 09:18 pm:

Thanks Graham.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 11:25 pm:

Joe,
Maybe I'm not right on my March 29 post.
I listened to the recording of my interview with Sam and he actually said that he had Freddy first, then Freddy went with Mike, but he got him back.
The first recording could have been Freddy playing guitar on "Red Pepper," but I'm not sure what 45 came next... the Star Maker 45, or "Pitter Patter." I'll ask Sam when I speak to him again.
Cheers, Graham

By Ian W (194.75.128.2) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 06:51 am:

Thanks Graham re. the Emanuel Lasky. I had no idea it was never released. I'll have to find a Wild Deuce copy then. I'm still searching for some of the earlier Thelma series too. But then, if you had them all, record collecting wouldn't be so much fun!

By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.97.7) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 08:17 am:

Hi Graham.

I'd be very surprised if Red Pepper isn't at least a couple years later than Freddie's three M&M 45s--I'm guessing it's from about the time of his Samo single, or perhaps a bit later. The M&M records all look and sound like they're from about '60-'62, and the Samo and Prince-Adams singles seem more like '64-'67 somewhere. The Starmaker 45 is probably from '62 or '63. Admittedly, this is just guesswork. I do wish ARP had assigned pressing numbers to their records like Columbia and RCA did. It would clear up a lot of dating problems with Detroit records.

By acooolcat (210.200.105.225) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 06:11 am:

Joe - I have a release date of 10/1962 for "Red Pepper" - and Sam said it was the first 45 that he had pressed.
I asked him why he had such an oddball numbering system which doesn't make any sense. He said that when he had "Red Pepper" pressed he was asked what number he wanted it to be - but he didn't know, so the guy suggested 447 and he agreed. And he used used 4 and 7 on most on his subsequent 45s.
Also, Rudy Robinson told me "Red Pepper" was his first record too.
Cheers,
Graham

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 10:54 am:

Graham, Joe

"Red Pepper" by Roosevelt Fountain and the Pens
of Rhythm (great name !) entered Billboard's
bubbling under chart on 12/29/62, entered the
Hot 100 the next week peaking at # 78.

So a 10/62 release date looks reasonable.

This MUST be one of the most obscure records ever to hit the Hot 100.

I have the writer listed as Rudy Robinson - no
producer credit - published by CorrecTone.

Hope that helps

Davie

By Joe Moorehouse (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 11:19 am:

Graham and Davie, thanks a lot for that information. I'm shocked that Red Pepper was so early--and so popular. Aren't there at least two versions of Red Pepper? Different takes or arrangements that are identifiable by alternate info in the run-out groove?

I'd always wondered why so many Sam Motley records have the number 47 on them somewhere--interesting story, Graham. Also, when Rudy Robinson said Red Pepper was his first record, did he mean the first record he wrote or the first record he played on? Because if it was the first song he played on, then the Freddie Butler single on yellow M&M must be later.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 12:08 pm:

Joe, I've no idea - haven't heard it.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 12:17 pm:

David,

Joe Hunter has 201 titles listed in his
BMI account. It'll be a huge job trying to identify them all.

They're listed under "Joseph E Hunter" - and
probably variations thereof.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 12:59 pm:

Thanks Davie

I am building a label scan database of Joe's stuff. He is also arranger on many songs where he was not credited as songwriter.

His input to the rare record scene is enormous.

What do you think Graham?

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 01:13 pm:

David,

Planning a webisode for 2010 ? :-)

I'll work on his BMI list as a starting point -
we're talking hundreds of records here.

At a guess , excluding Motown family releases,
he's probably involved in more records than
anybody else in Detroit as he worked with many producers. His contribution is ,without a doubt,
huge.

Davie

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 01:34 pm:

That would be great Davie.

By acooolcat (210.200.105.225) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 11:09 pm:

Joe, there are perhaps three releases of "Red Pepper" on the Prince Adams record label... I've been told there are slight variations on the label, but I'd simply assumed they were all the same recording. My guess is they are. I'll scan my 45 and get it pasted here. BTW - You should play this 45 and Don Hart's "A Telegram With Love" back to back. (This was the second D-Town 45).
When Rudy told me it was his first record - I believe he meant playing keyboard and recording something, as "Red Pepper" was before any of his D-Town 45s. At the time he'd only just got out of the military.
I think my listing posted April 2 is about right. Don't forget that Freddy's "Pitter Patter" credits the "Pens of Rythm" (sic) on the label.

David and Davie, as you say - Joe Hunter's contribution is incredible. And he's such a wonderful guy.

Cheers,
Graham

By acooolcat (210.200.105.225) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 10:57 am:

Joe, I've just found a Michigan Chronicle clipping in my files, from August 1964.
It's for Roosevelt Fountain and His Pens, gigging at Sandy's Show Bar, 9387 Mack.
On the same bill is "Chuck Hentley on guitar and vocalist"... I wonder if he was playing with The Pens too?
Graham

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 11:09 am:

I continue to shake my head when I hear of these shows.

Detroit was something else!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 11:18 am:

More from Graham. What must Mo-Jo's been like in it's day? We can only dream.