By Patrick (68.21.43.183) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:15 pm:

Have you ever heard a song that just sounds too polished? Too overproduced? Every artist today has the benefit of using studio magic to create perfect sounds without any effort. Sometimes I like to hear a little grit in songs, don't you?

By Fury13 (209.69.165.10) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 05:41 pm:

I'm going to catch hell for saying this from those who differ, but I feel that much of what was produced at Motown (and other companies) after 1965 or so was too slick, too polished. That's why I've never been a big fan of Motown music in particular, although (as those who know me will attest) I am a huge Detroit music (especially R&B) fan. I like it gritty and raw. So maybe that's why I'll take Fortune or Stax or even Chicago's One-Derful over the Motown sound. I do like about 80 percent of the 1959-1964 Motown stuff... don't get me wrong.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 05:44 pm:

Fury13:
Hey, as my man Sylvester Stewart once said, "Different strokes for different folks".
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 05:57 pm:

Fury,
I encouraged you to post your opinion although you know I don't agree ...I like that Norman Whitfield big production thing ...

By stephanie (64.63.221.236) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 06:02 pm:

My friend likes Stax over Motown. I have found that people from TX and Memphis and those areas seem to like Stax more so than Motown. What is good about the Stax people and folks like that is they have a huge following and have loyal fans on the chitlin circuit (yes it still exists) and I was told by a friend of mine that Johnny Taylor made good money traveling and doing those clubs.
Stephanie

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 06:08 pm:

I love the Drifters, but some of their early sixties material is way over-produced. It works beautifully on Save The Last Dance For Me, but try What To Do - a great piece of rockin' R&B with a bluesy harmonica. It could easily have been cut on the Coasters. All is fine till the strings come in. Strings? Yep - they bug me every time, and they're as much out of place as they would have been on Yakety Yak. I know it'll never happen, but it would be great to hear some of the Drifters' early 60s cuts stripped of all the sickly syrup. Well, I can dream, can't I..?

By Scratcher (65.132.79.167) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 06:23 pm:

Jackie Wilson was way over produced on his early Brunswick stuff. It worked on some tunes but on others it didn't--too many strings and things. Imagine Jackie recording for Stax or in Muscle Shoals, Alabama and dream about what could have been.

Growing up some friends prefered Stax over Motown. And I still remember a comment a girl made when we both were in the sixth grade about Mary Wells..."they use so much echo on her voice." At the time I didn't know what she was talking about.

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 06:25 pm:

There was a very interesting discussion about this on the older Motown/Memphis thread, concerning the highly polished Motown Sound vs. the Stax/Volt sound. I'll see if I can find it and bring it up.

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 07:18 pm:

Didn't work. It's near the bottom in the archives

By Loveunlimited (65.238.91.169) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 08:28 pm:

I love the Supremes, but, their stuff after Flo got booted was way too slick. After Diana left, Jean brought a little more soul to the group. Plus, you could finally hear Mary and Cindy in the backrounds!

By Patrick (67.38.27.130) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 11:25 pm:

Even on some of James Brown's stuff with the strings and orchestras and shit. Is there a limit???

By Edgar (200.46.12.20) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:43 am:

Loveunlimited, I believe that even when Jean Terrell joined The Supremes, Frank Wilson overproduced a few of their tracks: for example, "This Is the Story", "Bridge Over Troubled Water" and "Touch"... I know some persons love them, but for me they sound "too much". Smokey almost returned to basics in "Floy Joy", I believe.

By Eli (151.197.38.43) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:45 am:

I hate to say this but a lot of the Philly stuff was over produced, especially a lot of the First Choice things like Dr. Love, armed and extremely dangerous, and Salsoul stuff like Ten Percent and My love is free..
In my opinion, Thom Bell was the tastiest producer in Philly during the heyday.
having been on the set on all the sessions I can truly say that he was the consumate pro with a great sense of humor, to boot.!!

By John Lester (81.132.37.4) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 05:22 am:

Right, I am gonna say this and then run...

I think the most over produced song of ALL time is...errr, wait for it

Diana Ross on Ain't No Mountain High Enough.... and that was followed closely behind by the follow up, Reach Out I'll Be There.

I'm outta here...........whoooooooosh

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.141.165) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 06:14 am:

overproduced ?!Ain't No Mountain High Enough!
this ashford/simpson classic along with whitneys
"Step by Step" are the two most powerful songs, i use at the end of the night ,they both start slow and build into a crecendo,they appeal to all age groups and fill the floor and then nobody wants to go home i agree with bobby ,ten percent and first choice were overproduced ,to slick and no rawness ,except for "everyman" by ten percent,forget the vocal the backing was superb

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.141.165) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 06:16 am:

still running john, i will put your name down ,for the london marathon

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 06:47 am:

I think the tension created in a lot of the classic Motown tracks comes from the beauty and the beast formula. As a generality, the strings, brass and backing singers provided a complex but smooth layer, while the rhythm section, the lead singer and the front horns were the beasts.

It's like the contrast between JJ's all happening bass parts and all the rhythmic complexity of What's going on is kind of held in time by David Van De Pitte's legato strings.

That tension is one of the main keys to Motown IMO. I also thought that worked on It's a Man's World by James Brown. Philly had it too, but Stax is just bootin' R&B as good as it gets.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 07:44 am:

I think the the key to it all is quality.Yes some records sound like they are over-produced, but that does not make them less of a record.
It's something that bankhousedave talked about, the tension he speaks of is the complex inter-action between the chords,melody,rythym,lyrics, phrasing, and perhaps most important of all soul.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 11:46 am:

Well, John - room for one more in your bomb shelter? I always thought that record sounded like it bulldozed its way to the top of the charts like a pussycat inside a Sherman tank. The everything-and-two-kitchen-sinks production, the Andantes' wonderful vocal support, and sitting atop the unstoppable juggernaut was Ms Ross' piping little voice. IMO, she rode to the top on this one.

Hatches down!

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

Count me in on bankhouse Dave's theory about the interaction between the smoothly produced, and the funky, being part of Motown's appeal.

By Jim G (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:21 pm:

I tend to agree with Fury13.

I thought Motown's earlier output until was uniformly fabulous.
There was purity, informality, a certain feeling to it.
It's like Bird's Dial recordings or Billie Holiday's early Brunswick sessions: a distillation of individual styles into a finished beautiful body of work...the culmination of a special culture.

Once Billie's Brunswick records began to sell, the next round of sessions added more horns, and arrangements. They are beautiful as well, but the new setting hurt rather than helped (in my opinion).

By Bob Olhsson (12.77.95.51) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:31 pm:

Comparing Stax to Motown is comparing apples to oranges because Stax's market was mature adults rather than the teen-agers Motown's "Sound of Young America" was intended for. To an adult "authentic" is very "hip" while to a teen-ager the trappings of sophistication are very appealing. Somebody once told me the single most important thing about producing is knowing when to stop! Often as not overproduction is the result of a producer trying to please the artist rather than their audience.

My biggest complaint today is self-indulgent singing. Sharing the joy of a great song is frequently losing out to singers trying to sound impressive. Our producers always fought self-indulgent singing and I've always thought this was an important contribution to our records.

By Scratcher (65.134.147.170) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:36 pm:

Very good point, Bob. Motown didn't let their singers "go off" as they say and destroy the songs' melody.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:18 pm:

They wouldn't be allowed to go off ...! Martha Reeves did some commentary on the local Fox station in Detroit, after the American Idol Motown night broadcast last week.

She said several interesting things, including that she liked the girls who did her songs! Martha doesn't always like it when other singers do her songs (i.e. Joan Osborne). But Martha also said that the one girl who sang one of her songs did it in a much lower key. She said H-D-H wouldn't have allowed that, they would tell HER what key she was going to sing it in.

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:47 pm:

Hey Sue;
What did Martha say about joan Osborne doing her song ? Joan's no Martha but I know I was really impressed with the SITSOM version of "Heat Wave".
I can't think of many other singers who would have done that credible a job. Man , if she doesn't care for that version , Linda Ronstadt's must make her skin crawl.

Steve k

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:51 pm:

Joan was great, wasn't she?

By P.J. (216.151.67.104) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 08:05 pm:

May I take up residence in the bomb shelter too??? I've heard that one of the reasons Martha did not like Joan Osborne's version of Heat Wave all that well wasn't based entirely on performance. It was insinuated somewhere that Martha was disappointed and somewhat hurt that neither she nor any original Motowners were asked to sing their signature song or that of a fellow artist with the Funks at the SITSOM concert that was filmed.
Any truth to this?

By Sly Fan (64.169.106.229) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 08:47 pm:

Mr.Eli, you named like my favorite songs off that bat!! DR. LOVE is my anthem!! "My Love Is Free"??!! I have heard the story of Dr.Love by Tom Moulton, which is very interesting because I never wouldve put it together. I listen to it with a different ear now and I love it even more. What was your experience in recording that song Mr.Eli?

I have a burning question for you also? Please tell me that was Earl Young on drums...

Is there any relation to Jimmy Young?...cuz "Mainline" sounds like him in certain levels.

PS:I left some other info for you also Mr.Eli under "Gap Tooth Singers".

Peace and Love.

By Sue (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 09:33 pm:

The feeling was that the focus wouldn't be on the Funks if the Motown singers/groups had reprised their songs on film. It's too bad Martha didn't see that.

By Eli (151.197.5.122) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 09:44 pm:

Sly fan...
Earl Young is Black and Jimmy Young is Chinese!!
For all I know they could be long lost bros seperated at birth, who knows.
Yes it` is Earl on Dr. Love and it was one of my favorite rhythm dates but I thought that the sweetening was a bit over the top, albeit good.

Also, as far as production, I always that "less is more"
Just the right little lick in the right place can be all the diference in the world.
What would For the love of money be without Anthony Jackson's bass line?

How about the little guitar slide done in fourths that I did in the bridge of Backstabers?

How about all the electric sitar parts that I did on the Stylistis and Delphonics records?

How about me shutting up already?

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 10:15 pm:

Hey Bobby,

It isn't bragging when you really did it ...

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 11:09 pm:

A SMALL TAKE!!!...I THINK THAT THIS TOPIC REALLY GOES BACK TO A CENTRAL ISSUE THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED HERE SOMEWHAT BEFORE!!!...KEVGO CERTAINLY HAS A VALID POINT..."DIFFERENT STROKES"...AND THE FINAL PRODUCT IS A CULMINATION OF THE PRODUCERS CONCEPT...AND ILLUSTRATES JUST HOW WELL HE OR SHE PULLED IT OFF...AND PROBABLY JUST WHAT THEIR PRODUCTION CAPABILITIES ACTUALLY ARE...THAT IS UNTIL THEY BUILD A TRACK RECORD...AND A CERTAIN LEVEL OF QUALITY...OR LACK THEREOF...CAN BE EXPECTED!!!...I THINK THAT IT BECOMES A PROBLEM...WHEN A PARTICULAR PRODUCER...ARRANGER...OR EVEN MUSICIAN...PLACES THEIR INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE OR INPUT AHEAD OF THE FINISHED PRODUCT...IN THAT THE MOST MELODIC STRING ARRANGEMENT FOR EXAMPLE...IF NOT WRITTEN IN THE DICIPLINE OF THE ENTIRE SONG...CAN RUIN THE END PRODUCT IF IT DOESN'T FIT!!!...A GOOD PRODUCER...IN MY OPINION...EITHER COMES IN WITH...OR CREATES DURING...A CONCEPT THAT THEY BELIEVE IN...PUTS TOGETHER THE PROPER GROUP OF PEOPLE TO PULL IT OFF...AND MAINTAINS CONTROL...SO THAT THE PROJECT TURNS OUT TRUE TO THEIR ORIGINAL VISION!!!...FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH!!...STU

By Sly fan (67.115.73.249) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 01:29 pm:

Wow!! Mr. Eli!! I didnt know Jimmy Young was Chinese!! Brothers from another mother for real!!

"Dr. Love" and "Love Is The Message" are probably my top two favorite dance songs, "Bad Luck" and "I Love Music" also.

I have always believed that less is more. I told someone the other day that the greatest songs ever made were no more than two minutes long or they keep the prodution simple but with substance and vision.

I also agree with STUBASS, its about the right people being placed in the larger scheme of things. Timing is the essence also.

Mr. Eli, please keep talking!! you were there and you along with the other members of the forum were a part of my life as well as millions of others. I have always been interested in the making of things or behind the scenes.

You did the Sitar Parts??? Aw maaan!! You are the reason I started playing Sitar in Kindergaten. I was always fascinated by that sound. What inspired you in using the sitar? Me and buddy of mine were listening to an Al Green song called "Something" and I swore up and down that Thom Bell produced it, come to find out it was the great Wille Mitchell. You and Mr. Bell put an unofficial patent on the sitar.

Are you playing guitar on "Love Comes Easy" by The Stylistics, thats a really nice riff on the first eight bars?

I agree with your questions..when I first heard "For The Love Of Money", I was totally hypnotized especially when he does that little break down before the chorus..I would die to hear the alternate takes on that song if Sony comes out with a deluxe set.

By stephanie (64.63.221.70) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 04:26 pm:

You did the Sitar Parts??? Aw maaan!! You are the reason I started playing Sitar in Kindergaten. I was always fascinated by that sound. What inspired you in using the sitar? Me and buddy of mine were listening to an Al Green song called "Something" and I swore up and down that Thom Bell produced it, come to find out it was the great Wille Mitchell. You and Mr. Bell put an unofficial patent on the sitar. >>>>>

Hey Sly Fan
We had Ravi Shankar and George Harrison and now we have Mr Eli adding some soul to the sitar isnt it incredible. I have to agree with Eli I thought that the First Choice stuff was way overproduced but in my opinion that overproduction worked. I know some people think that the Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes stuff was overproduced but it worked.

I think these are a list of songs that were overproduced but in the long run it worked....
Livin in Shame - Diana Ross and the Supremes
Hollywood - Boz Scaggs
Gonna Hold on As Long as I Can - Marvelettes (this one didnt work)
The Beginning of the end of Love - Diana Ross and the Supremes...one of the best examples of overproduction that WORKS. More with the voices I feel its overproduced not the music.
Youve Lost that Loving Feeling - Righteous Bros
Soul and Inspiration - Righteous Bros...

If you ask me when it comes to Rock bands I prefer bands like the Kinks and The Clash over produced bands like Pink Floyd and Led Zepplin.
I think the Clash is one of the tightest bands to come out of the eighties. May the lead singer Joe Strummer rest in peace!!
Stephanie

By Sly fan (67.115.75.58) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 06:50 pm:

Yeah Steph!! The Sitar rocks!!

I remember the first time I heard it on a Soul record was by way of the classics "Signed, Sealed,Delivered" and "Band Of Gold". Funk 4 Dayz...

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 06:53 pm:

Stephanie & Sly Fan:
Let's not forget Dennis Coffey's electric sitar lead on Freda Payne's "Band of Gold".
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By stephanie (64.63.221.84) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 07:06 pm:

KevGo
Thank you for reminding me I must bow to Dennis Coffey that is one of my favorite openings in the history of soul along with Backstabbers by the O Jays......
Stephanie

By Sly fan (67.115.75.58) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 07:06 pm:

Hi Kev!! naw look above you post, I beat you to it!!!

By Sly fan (67.115.75.58) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 07:07 pm:

correction: look above your post.

By Sly fan (67.115.75.58) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 07:09 pm:

I agree Kev,

Coffey is another one that still amazes me!! "Scorpio" is one of the reasons I learned how to dance, my mom wore that record out!!

Yes, Mr. Coffey is a genius. I was listening to "Ride, Sally, Ride and it still rocks!!

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 03:21 pm:

I wasn't much of a Motown fan when I was in high school, but I liked Rare Earth. I was really disappointed when "Ma" came out because it didn't sound like Rare Earth. It sounded like Norman Whitfield telling Rare Earth what to play, if you know what I mean. It wasn't that it was bad, it was just too much Norman and not enough Rare Earth.

By Sly fan (67.115.75.96) on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 05:46 pm:

I agree John C..
Its funny cuz' Undisputed Truth covered it years later.

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 03:10 pm:

And Smiling Faces was on the Ma LP.

By Michael/Cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 03:18 pm:

I am a huge fan of Nat King Cole. However, I felt that some of his songs from the late 50's through early 60s was overproduced with too "hot" bland background vocals and too much going on. The man was sublime and just did not need it. I have a live album that he did in Las Vegas (with an audience of industry people who came to see him after their shows were finished) and Nat created magic with spare arrangements. And the piano playing... unbelievable!!

By motownboy (12.158.230.250) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 05:16 pm:

Yes but Rare Earth's "Ma" LP has one of the best album covers in history......(LOL)

By medusa9e (66.73.10.80) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 11:13 pm:

I notice everytime I listen to an old Stevie Wondre song, I wonder why they didn't take the breathing part out. If you ever listen to Stevie Wonder singing I was made to love her or I'm wondering, you can hear him take every breath.
I think i like the Motown MUSIC over a lot of the Motown singing...please, please don't get upset, but a lot(not all) of those very young motown kids weren't very good singers, vocalists??? yes, but not good singers. If you don't believe me, just listed to an old MOtown song and picture it without the music (Funk Brothers). It was the Music that made the Motown sound, ok, along with the choreorgraphy and the outfits. But it was the Music that put Motown on the Map,if you don't believe that, you really need to see the Movie.

By Eli (141.151.2.62) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 11:20 pm:

The "breathing" was overemphasized by the compression used on Stevies voice.

By Sly fan (67.115.74.118) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 12:41 am:

I actually dig the "breathing" because it brings emphasis to what he was about to say next, sometimes the natural effect works..its more honest. It kills the vibe when production is "too perfect".