By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 05:36 am:

the first time i heard somebody rap through a
song was funkadelic.MAMA WHAT'S A FUNKADELIC.can
you name the first rap artist you ever heard.

By Edgar (200.46.132.206) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:25 am:

I am not sure if it was the male voice in Martha Reeves' "Really Like Your Rap" or in a Lisa Lisa & the Cult album...

By Edgar (200.46.132.206) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:27 am:

Fayette, by the way, where do you live? You do wake up early!!! In Panama it's 6:30 a.m.

By Horse (159.53.238.243) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:21 am:

I Don't Know Who Was The First ......But I'd Love To Know Who's Gonna Be The Last..!

By Joe Moorehouse (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:26 am:

Like every other music genre, rap didn't suddenly appear full-blown, but emerged slowly over a period of time. Gil Scott-Heron's The Revolution Will Not Be Televised from the early '70s was my first experience with a spoken-word song over a jazz-funk groove. It's not exactly rap, but it's a pretty obvious forerunner. Then there was a bit in Chaka Khan song--don't remember which one--that was very like rap. But I think Kurtis Blow was the first person I heard who was unmistakeably what we now call a rap artist.

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:42 am:

I've seen references to Gil Scott-Heron as the "Godfather of Rap", and this is aparently acepted in some circles. It would be interesting to see who influenced him, possibly the beat poets of the '50's and early '60's. I'm not going to even try to spell his name, but somewhere around here I have a poem to music by the fellow (Jack Kero....) who wrote ON THE ROAD.
Good question.

By Rich (162.33.246.140) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 10:40 am:

Beat Poets?!?, Naw ... The Last Poets.

Years before Kool Herc, Grandmaster Flash, Kurtis Blow or the folks they inspired like Run-DMC & The Sugar Hill Gang, the Last Poets released their first album for Douglas in 1970. The album peaked at #3 R&B, #27 Pop in 1970 ... which seems all but impossible, especially if you'd ever heard it. Their debut album (Right On) was recorded in 1968. The group was from Harlem, and they were instrumental in the development of Gil Scott-Heron's style. The tradition(one's "spiel") is believed to have begun in American prisons, as did the style of saggy pants and sneakers without shoe-laces, etc. A less than ideal model, but the source none the less.

There isn't much debate over he first Gangsta Rap tune either - Jalil Nurridden of the Last Poets (as Lightnin' Rod) together with musical backing from Kool & the Gang cut the legendary tune "Sport" in 1973. Nurridden's cleverly laid-out concept album was entitled HUSTLERS CONVENTION.

"it was a full moon, in the middle of june, in the summer of '59. i was young 'n' cool, 'n' shot a bad game of pool, 'n' hustled all the chumps i could find. now they call me sport' cause i pushed a bar short and loved all the women to death, i partied hard, carried a mean rod, 'n' could knock you out with a right or a left."

something like that.

peace

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 12:21 pm:

Andre Williams said he was the first rap artist.

Marvin Gaye recorded a rap in "Ego Tripping Out" on Tamla 9/28/79.

By Fury13 (209.69.165.10) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 12:38 pm:

"Bacon Fat" by Andre Williams in 1956-57 is probably the first rap record... although I will concede that it's not modern rap.

By 1wicked (64.32.154.94) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

And let's not forget Nikki Giovanni's "Ego Trippin'", which is about the same time as "The Revolution..." (post Last Poets). In terms of true hip-hop style....Fatback Band's "King Tim III" is recognized as being the 1st recorded rap effort...with "Rappers Delight" released shortly after.

By cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 03:07 pm:

Now, you are guys are going to think I am nuts. But I believe that the first "rap" song is "Trouble" from the musical The Music Man and sung/rapped by the great Robert Preston. What do you think? As far as my definition of a rap song, it fits. Take a listen to it. (I believe this and I am black. LOL!!!_
Michael

By John Lester (213.123.139.169) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 03:47 pm:

Dont forget Laura Lee..........

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.33) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 03:55 pm:

These kind of discussion can be a blind alley. There were lots of blues, R&B, and country tracks from the likes of Louis Jordan, Hank Williams, and many others that sounded exactly like early rock & roll through the 40s and early 50s, but it didn't really become "Rock and Roll" until it also became a youth movement in the mid-50s.

Rock and rap are both highly derivative musical forms, and it is worthy to talk about the progenitors of the forms. It may be impossible to come up with the "first" song in either genre. It's easy to talk about breakthrough songs, though, be it "Rock Around the Clock" and "Maybellene" or "The Breaks" and "The Message".

Regards,
Ken

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 03:59 pm:

You can't forget the R&B disc jockeys like "Frantic" Ernie Durham who talked in a rapidfire patois that was absolutely the forerunner to rap ...every city had someone who talked like that ...

By Eli (151.197.39.147) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 04:03 pm:

I believe that the first rap record as we have come to know the genre was King Tim III by the Fat back Band in 1973.

Believe it or not I recorded a dreadful song in 1963 called Big Butters for Melron records in which I "rapped". Dr. Demento at it's finest!!

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 04:10 pm:

THE FIRST "RAP" ARTIST THAT I EVER MET WAS THE GUY AT "ADAMS RIB" IN ENCINO, CALIFORNIA!!!...BOY...HE COULD RAP A PIECE OF CHOCOLATE CAKE IN ALUMINUM FOIL...ARTISTICALLY SHAPED LIKE A SWAN... LIKE NO-ONE I'VE EVER SEEN!!!...STU

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.33) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 04:18 pm:

I've got it! What about that snake who put the rap on Eve in the garden of Eden?



Regards,
Ken

By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:28 pm:

edgar i was born, raised, and live in atlanta
georgia.

By Horse (68.61.77.137) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 07:48 pm:

Ken,

You Got It...! That had to be the first rap ever laid in history. True Jungle Love...!

By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 07:55 pm:

ken if it had anything to do with eve and
the snake it had to be the first rap song lol

By Jim G (64.12.97.7) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:02 pm:

Don Redman, one of the architects of big band jazz, recorded several "talking" vocals with his own ork in the early 1930s. Same concept, different times...
Perhaps some of Jack Kerouac's recordings are close, as douglasm suggested. He did use jazz guys like Zoot Sims / Al Cohn.
Some of Harry "The Hipster" Gibson's monologue's are pretty wild too.

By thecount (65.60.201.174) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:17 pm:

HEY FURY13,right on for the era,along with,
"stranded in the jungle-CADETS/JAYHAWKS"
(quick,boo-ga-lou-ga,let me out ah here)
and PIANO RED(william perryman)"Mother in law BLUES"
(shes got a mouth like a chicken,her teeths are all over her lips)

And Right-on-SUE,our own and beloved and missed
"FRANTIC ERNIE DURHAM"
Ernie D saying ooh-lah-wee,I sure gota pee,and we will spin a little song from cook-to keep you shook.
THE 20 GRAND-one lean green to make the scene,ol buddy bean,teen and queen,age limit 17,
dont goof bring your proof.

"COUNT"

By Fred (152.163.188.68) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:01 pm:

I'll nominate Dave Bartholomew's "The Monkey Speaks His Mind" from 1953(?) as a direct progenitor of rap, especially because of the spare and rhythmic instrumentation behind the spoken vocal. Non-musical roots go all the way back at least as far as the dialect poetry of Langston Hughes.

By Mark Speck (65.56.57.131) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 12:19 am:

How 'bout Clarence Carter with "Making Love (At the Dark End of the Street)"?

And let us not forget the great Joe Tex and his LP "From the Roots Came the Rapper".

Best,

Mark

By freddyflat5 (67.25.219.161) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 03:52 pm:

I say it was Jimmy Dean doing "Big, Bad John"..!

By FAYETTE (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 04:06 pm:

i don't know IF you call that rappin but joe tex used
to have me on the floor with that song SKINNY LEGGS AND ALL

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 09:34 am:

IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS NOTHING BUT ROCK,AN THEN SOMEBODY INVENTED THE WHEEL AND THINGS JUST BEGAN TO ROLL..THE COASTERS,BABY THAT'S ROCK AN ROLL!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 09:41 am:

Speaking of the Coasters...how about Shopping For Clothes?

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 09:57 am:

HEY RALPH,SHOPPING FOR CLOTHES JUST MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE COOLEST SONG THE COASTERS EVER DID AND CERTAINLY ONE OF THE FUNNIEST.

By stephanie (64.63.221.74) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 12:30 pm:

Remember Flo Ballard rapped on the Ballad of Davy Crockett while Mary Wilson sang..
Stephanie

By fayette (152.163.188.68) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 04:07 pm:

see staphanie you learn sumfin new everyday.

By bigjime (198.81.27.10) on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:14 am:

Jocko Henderson was a jive-talkin' DJ in Philadelphia, similar to our Frantic Ernie, who did some recording for the Wand label in the early 60s and appeared on American Bandstand a few times.

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 03:01 am:

Has anyone mentioned (or heard of) Slim Gaillard?
I'm new to this cat. Scatman Crothers and Bullmoose Jackson were his contemporaries.
He had to have been hip as Bird and Diz played on a couple tunes of his.

Slim was born in Detroit.

http://www.pocreations.com/slimbio1.html

By RonS (12.251.115.153) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 02:34 am:

A few years ago I heard an interview on NPR with the late Eddie Harris. He claimed (with his toungue firmly planted in his cheek) that he and Les McCann invented rap with their 1969 release "Compared to What"

By 1wicked (66.80.176.194) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 01:10 pm:

Jocko Henderson did a 12" single on PIR to the "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" track that was seriously slammin'. The man had a serious "flow". I wish I could have had the opportunity to hear him on the air.

By Jim G (12.47.224.13) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 01:42 pm:

Bulee "Slim" Gaillard may have actually been born in the Middle East, but he did spend his formative years here. I can't remember finding evidence that he worked around town, which suggests that he left early.

If memory serves, his father was in the merchant marine and spent much time in the Mediterranean. This accounts for Slim's tendency to name some of his wonderful jive tunes after Greek menu items--"Yeproc Heresey", for example.

He and bassist LeRoy "Slam" Stewart had a smash hit in 1936 with "Flat Foot Floogie (with the floy-floy)". Slim also played piano and did a wicked send-up of vocalist Billy Eckstine.

The numbers with Bird and Diz to which you refer are indeed wonderful. They were recorded when Bird/Diz & Slim/Slam were in residence at Billy Berg's club in LA in 1945. "Slim's Jam" is a good example of a relaxed atmospheric jam session.

The complete works of Slim & Slam were collected on a three CD set several years ago.

When Slim and Slam broke up, Slim got bassist "Bam" Brown as a replacement.
Slim wrote many novelty numbers and a couple of suites, including the fabulous "Avocado Seed Soup Symphony". Slim lived in England prior to his death.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.78) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 03:39 pm:

How about Peetie Wheatshaw,
I have heard him rapping on tracks from 1930/1938.
His vocal mannerisms of 'ooh,well,well' bisected the pay-off line in every verse.Eventually being copied by others.
A woman listener in a club about to leave,says to one and all around her,'good god,why dosent that man yodel and be done with it'.

'Woman allraving about Peetie
Wheatshaw in this land
He got some of these women,now
Going from hand to hand...

Everybody hollering,'Here come
that Peetie Wheatstraw'
Now hes better known by 'The
Devils Son-in-Law'

Everybody wondering what the
Peetie Wheatstraw do
'Cause every time you hear him
he's coming out with something new.

He makes somehappy,some he
make cry
Well now he made one old lady
go hang herself and die.'

Verses like these were were mentioned in his uptempo Peetie Wheatshaw Stomp no1 and no2.

Great stuff.
mel.

By larry (216.23.183.2) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 04:12 pm:

Jim and Mel,

Thanks for the info on Slim and Peetie.

I feel strongly that these early R&B artists music needs to be kept alive. I accidentally backed into a handful of artists including T-Bone Walker (Imperial Years), Louis Jordan and others. I'd never heard of these folks until recently.

Noone I know has ever heard of Slim Gaillard's "Atomic Cocktail" or "Who Put the Benzedrine in Mrs. Murphy's Ovaltine".

Priceless shit man.

Jim, re: Yep Roc Heresy a month ago. My father still remembers the lyrics from the 40's. He hadn't heard the song in over 50 years and still recited the line "that's a good deal McNeil!"

Obviously Slim had an impact on folks. I'd read his daughter was once married to Marvin Gaye.

By Jim G (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 05:15 pm:

Larry,

"Benzedrine" was Harry "The Hipster" Gibson's tune, a real classic.

As you're posting on SD, may I suggest some fine home-grown Jump blues:
Todd Rhodes (available on Ace & Classics R&B)
King Porter
TJ Fowler (last available on Savoy)

Actually, the first recordings of what's called "Jump Blues" were made for Decca in the late 1930s. Louis Jordan, "Hot Lips" Page,Sammy Price, Snub Mosely and Pete Brown all waxed small group Jump music around the same time.

Also check out Lionel Hampton's "Flying Home" from 1942 with Illinois Jacquet's swinging, pulsating tenor sax solo--that solo is THE first R&B tenor solo, the genesis, the Alpha and Omega, be-all-and-end-all, of the genre.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.4) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 05:39 pm:

Larry,
I mentioned Slim and Benzedrine a couple of weeks ago,as well as cement mixer and others.
My mate has got a few of slims cuts and Benzedrine is a classic.
mel.

By Jim G (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 05:52 pm:

Mel,

Please tell me on what label Slim recorded "Benzedrine"--I can't seem to find it in my discographies.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.4) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 05:54 pm:

Hey Jim,
I have it down on the Dial Label.
Mel.

By Jim G (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 06:08 pm:

Slim & Slam, late 1930s. Slim is on the left.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.4) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 06:14 pm:

Great pic Jim.

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 01:30 am:

Jim,

I will check out your tips. Thank you very much for the knowledge. You too Mel.

"Cement Mixer, Pu-ti, Pu-ti!"

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 10:31 am:

Somebody define "Rap" as opposed to "Spoken Word" for me.
I went back and listened to a Kerouac thing I have on a Rhino sampler (w/ Steve Allen on piano), then Scott-Heron's "Revolution". On both, they worked WITH the music, as opposed to Allen's "Cinderella" (A Grimm Fairy Tale for Hep Kids), where the music existed as backround or mood setter. In all three cases, one would be lesser without the other, but in the first two, the interelation was more apparent.

By Sly fan (67.115.74.242) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 09:38 pm:

First song I ever hear with a "Rap" in it was "Do It Til' Your Satisfied" by BT Express and a lot of James Brown Records in the early 70's.

Also Louis Jordan, Cab Calloway, etc.

I am diggin' the Slim and Slam!!

By Eli (151.197.40.160) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 09:55 pm:

Obviously, there are tons of records with spoken word sections and also records which can be defined as "spoken word", therefore I believe that what we are talking about here on the forum are rap records based on the current definition of the genre ie " rap" from an urban perspection.

On another not, on one of my trips to San Francisco I saw a recital with the famous poet/author/actor Rod Mc Cuen and after the recital he welcomed those who wanted to participate in a "rap session".

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 01:15 am:

Gents,

Not to gloss over the topic here, but, for me it's a springboard to my new favorite artists:
Slim Gaillard (& Slam Stewart), Louis Jordan, Cab Calloway, T-Bone Walker '50-'54, Nat Cole Trio '42-'49.

I went back to upright bass and I'm simply shittin over all this great sweet soul mellow jive jazz. The "Iraq Show" is much easier to swallow with Vol off and Nat Cole's "Gee Baby" ON.

By Keith Rylatt (217.137.88.11) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 03:08 am:

Guys Jerry-O did a lot of `toasting` on top of tracks and E Rodney Jones sounds great on `R&B Time`, Tuff records. Keith

By Sly fan (64.169.104.101) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 08:41 pm:

Cant forget Gary Byrd...
GBE!!!

in terms of the first rapper in today's terms, pick up a book called "Yesh, Yesh, Yall" which has first hand accounts from the creators of Rap themselves...Grandmaster Caz, Melle Mel, etc..

It is very informative in terms of Rap and Hip-Hop's origins before the "Rapper's Delight" craze.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 10:43 am:

I keep hearing references to the Blondie--Deborah Harry song "Rapture". Where does this fit into this mess, and does it pre date modern "rap"?

By Sly fan (64.169.107.6) on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 03:32 pm:

Douglasm: Blondie's "Rapture" was a record that introduced Rap music and Hip-Hop to a POP audience..The people such as Fab 5 Freddy (who was a prominent artist in the downtown art seen along with other legends such as Keith Herring(RIP) and Futura 2000) and DJ Grandmaster Flash (who was the biggest party DJ and founder of "Scratching") are people who helped cultivate this movement and expose it to the masses are mentioned in this very song. Giving the youth a chance to be creative and express themselves. Thus, creating a format that would not be available for them elsewhere and is now a worldwide phenomenon, so much for "mess"...

Anyhow, a lot of the Soho art types and punk rockers (such as Debbie Harry) would go to these Hip-Hop parties and found them to be very fascinating( Breakdancers, DJ's, MC's, Graf Artists) etc ..which brought Black and White together in a MAJOR way. Keep in mind these parties were thrown in various parts of the South Bronx and West Bronx (not exactly Queens or The Village)...As a result, Debbie had so much of a good time at these parties that she wrote a song about it..an ode to Hip-Hop entitled "Rapture".

and the band played on...