By stephanie (64.63.221.185) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 04:13 pm:

Have you ever felt that there was an artist or a member of a band who did not get enough credit. Well I do and Im sure there are many that you can think of. Two people I can think of dont really deserve high accolades but I think they are not given enough credit one is Tony Hicks of the Hollies. This guy has stayed when there have been constant personnel changes and has contributed to their compositions but no one ever mentions him all you ever hear about is Graham Nash or Terry Sylvester or Allan Clarke. Tony Hicks even looks like a Hollie!!!! The guy is so underrated its horrible...and now Miss Cindy Birdsong this woman had to replace Flo Ballard in the Supremes and I would imagine she was under a horrible amount of pressure to do well on Ed Sullivan and in their stage show. The public remembers her name and knows her as a Supreme but the history books dont really give her props like Flo and Mary and Diana have been given. I feel that Cindy Birdsongs vocals give the background a fresh feel with Mary Wilson and company and without her voice with Marys those backgrounds would have been nothing she was also a Bluebelle.
For her having been in two historical female groups and filling Flos shoes under that amount of pressure she should get more credit. Last but not least the late great Linda Jones..the critics give her credit but the general public may not remember her. One of the greatest voices of all time on Hypnotized and other records. Look Patti Labelle and Gladys Knight said this woman was an influence that alone says it. She paved the way for the high singers I know some people say Minnie Riperton did but I would have to say that honor goes to Linda Jones. One of the most gifted soul singers I have ever heard. Its a shame she is not remembered as much as she should be.
Steph

By Sly fan (67.119.52.21) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

The "High" thing is very interesting because Minnie has been around before her "Loving You" smash. This now goes into the "Chicago Soul Era", Minnie was in a group called Rotary Connection (prod. by the great Charles Stepney) in the mid sixties and she was doing the high thing then. Although, I feel Ms. Jones had VERY UNIQUE voice out of them all, you could feel the depth in her and Ms. Ripperton's high's are very different. I miss them both. I agree with all of the artist that you have mentioned in the light that you have that they dont receive enough credit. Good call on Tony Hicks!! Here's are some others who fit that category also:


Little Richard
Billy Eckstine
Louis Jordan
Bessie Smith
Sun Ra
Count Basie
Eubie Blake
"Sir Duke"
The Funk Bros.
Donovan
Linda Creed
Frank Zappa and his "Mothers"
Kool and The Gang
Walter "Junie" Morrison
Lonnie Liston Smith
Roy Ayers
Lonnie Smith
Donald Byrd
Sly and The Family Stone
The Brothers Johnson
The Isley Bros.
The Moments
The Intruders
Leroy Hutson
The JB's
Bobby Byrd
The O'Jays

the list goes on.....

By john dixon (63.101.17.207) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 04:56 pm:

good one, Steph,
Paul Williams of the Temptations is a perfect example. I'm sure he gets the proper respect here on this forum, but I'm sure more casual fans of the Temptations focus more on D. Ruffin, E. Kendricks, and D. Edwards. Paul should have gotten more leads during the Temps heyday, as evidenced by the unforgettable "Don't Look Back", to just name one. In the early days of the group, Paul was very influential in teaching everyone how to dress and move onstage.

In rock and roll, I would have to mention Nils Lofgren, of the E Street Band. A terrific singer, songwriter, and guitarist, before enlisted by the Boss, Nils had released some fine solo lps under his own name and, prior to that, with his band, Grin.

I may be veering into the indespensible sideman category, but I can't help thinking of the enormous contribution of Lee Allan with his wailing sax breaks on the Little Richard records and Johnnie Johnson who, just ask Keith Richards, pretty much co-wrote those Chuck Berry classics with his wonderful rollin' piano stylings.

Of course, there's Jamerson, Benny B., and all the Funk Bros. They may be icons on soulful Detroit but are just beginning to reap the proper credit and adulation from the general public.

Can't forget Willie Dixon, who was the MVP of Chess Studios during the classic Chicago Blues era. Willie arranged sessions, rounded up musicians, wrote wonderful songs for other artists, and played a wicked stand up bass.

By Reese (204.152.12.159) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 05:01 pm:

To be honest, I think Diana Ross is an artist that doesn't get enough credit. Many times people overlook her talent because of her favored status at Motown, her relationship with Berry, or her alleged eccentric behavior.

All those things aside, I still think the woman is a fabulous vocalist, and an awesome entertainer who deserves every accolade that she's received. And while many artists might not want to admit it, she opened doors for many.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 05:13 pm:

Steph:
I only know of the Hollies through the many 45s I bought at used record stores (mostly Liberty/Imperial releases)and the tunes I heard when I was a kid that were new at the time ("Long Cool Woman" & "The Air That I Breathe"). I will say this - I do have a video of NBC-TV'S "Hullaballoo" with the Hollies performing "Look Through Any Window". Tony's lead guitar line was amazing & was quite surprised to see it being played (or "mimed" since Hullaballoo had their guests sing to pre-recorded tracks most of the time)on a Gretsch six-string guitar (sounded like a 12-string). Tony's guitar work with the Hollies ranged from the acoustic "Bus Stop" to the banjo-driven "Stop Stop Stop" and the guitar-distorted "On A Carousel". He indeed was very artistic with his instrument and deserves props.

As far as female singers, I do have to say Minnie Riperton gets my vote. So many people think of her as the "Loving You" girl that her work with Rotary Connection & Ramsey Lewis is almost overlooked (never mind the shoddy job MCA has done with reissuing R.C.'s catalog). She ventured from pop to eclectic rock to jazz to R&B to ballads with so much ease whereas other singers would be overwhelmed. Rather than get into a long-dragged-out debate, if you've got $21.99 to spare pick up the 2CD set PETALS: THE MINNIE RIPERTON ANTHOLOGY released on Capitol. This covers her entire career from her brief stint as a girl-group lead singer (the Gems) through Rotary Connection and her solo work produced by Stevie Wonder, the late Charles Stepney (who helped oversee Earth Wind & Fire's recordings with Maurice White) and Minnie's husband Richard Rudolph (who went on to produce Teena Marie's "Lady T" album among others).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Nish (216.148.244.38) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 05:22 pm:

Stephanie!!! Great great call!

I think George Kerr stands to be mentioned. His productions are great.

Eugene Mumford
Billy Ward
Chris Clark
Tommy James and Shondells
Sylvia - she had a long enduring career, was the midwife for the birth of rap (is that a good thing? LOL!), and had a hand in Linda Jones' and the Moments' great soul careers.
Clyde McPhatter
Patti Drew
Linda Jones

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 05:59 pm:

Besides Tony & Minnie, here's a short list of folks I feel should have received their just due:

Marvellettes - first Motown group to score a number one pop hit for the label, continued to have more but seemed to dwindle in the ascension of Diana Ross.

Darlene Love & Cissy Houston - two of pop music's best voices ever; graced almost every hit record from the sixties to the present. Imagine if these two ever joined forces.....

Wardell Quezerque - New Orleans -based arranger/producer who scored hits for Robert Parker ("Barefootin'"), Jean Knight ("Mr. Big Stuff") and King Floyd ("Groove Me"). Had to deal the big shadow Allen Toussaint had cast on the Crescent City music scene.

Barbara Acklin - As a singer she should've had more hits than "Love Is A Woman" and "Just Ain't No Love". She wrote the melodies & lyrics to Eugene Record's music and helped create pop classics - "Have You Seen Her" being her biggest.

Carl Davis - Detroit had Gordy, Philly had Gamble & Huff, Chicago had Carl Davis. Check the resume of productions - "Duke Of Earl", "Rainbow", "Monkey Time", "Um Um Um Um Um Um," "Whispers (Getting Louder)", "I Get The Sweetest Feeling" , "Higher & Higher." Just a smidgen of what he (along with Calvin Carter) had done for Chicago soul..which leads me to..

The Artistics - This Windy City quartet had two things going for them - fine singing (especially from lead Marvin Smith and later on Tommy Green) and songwriting (they created their own songs). "I'm Gonna Miss You" and "Girl I Need You" are rare soul classics (even their full-length CD "I'm Gonna Miss You" is great from beginning to end).

Grandmaster Caz - Note to Nish: If you want to talk about Sylvia Robinson & hip-hop, look up this man's name. It's practically an open secret here in NYC that Caz wrote the rhymes you hear on the Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" but he never got credit on the record. Sylvia was a fine businesswoman in the industry but Caz was the one who gave her Sugar Hill Records' first rap hit (and a pop music classic).

FINALLY..
Paul Williams - "I Want A Love I Can See", "Don't Look Back", "For Once In My Life", "Last One Out Is Broken Hearted" - nuff said.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.65) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 06:51 pm:

Bessie Smith.
Big Maybelle.
Esther Phillips.
Clyde McPhatter.
Jackie Wilson.
Pete Johnson.
Oscar Toney Jnr.
James Carr.
Louis Jordan.
Little Walter.
Little Willie John.
The Olympics.
T-Bone Walker.
Della Reese.
Dee Clark.
The Chants.
Howlin'Wolf.
Johnny Ace.
Junior Parker.
OVWright.
Ike Turner.
Vibrations.
Ann Cole.
Varetta Dillard.
Lowell Fulson.
Roy Hamilton.
Linda Jones.
Johnny Sayles.
Garnet Mimms.
Lorraine Chandler.
Shirley Matthews.
Clydie King.
Walter Jackson.
Tony Hestor.
Cody Black.
The Volumes.
Dee Dee Warwick.
And I havent even started yet,
theres a lot of people on this forum that should get a hell of a lot more credit than they have had.
MEL.

By Sly fan (67.119.52.222) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 07:00 pm:

THANK YOU SOOOOOOO MUCH FOR SHOWING LOVE TO CAZ KEV G!!! I was talking to Caz about this very subject about 5 yrs ago when he was out here in LA. Sugar Hill Records ripped a lotta people off and shot a lot of dreams. Thats another story...

But yeah...if you clearly listen to "Rapper's Delight". Hank is clearly spelling out Caz's name which was Casanova Fly cuz Hank use to manage The Cold Crush Bros. (The Group Caz was apart of) and Hank was like I wanna learn how to rap so Caz was like here take my note pad. But he didnt know NOTHING about "Rapper's Delight" until he heard it on the radio. Caz deserves every penny of royalties for that song along with Chic.

Caz, Bam, Flash, Herc,etc I love those cats for life!!

Thanx Kev!!

By Sly fan (67.119.52.222) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 07:05 pm:

Oh yeah, I cant forget the one that started it all...

Vee Jay Records (They even had The Beatles before Capitol!!)

and the whole Chicago Soul Movement in general..

By Fury13 (12.2.196.17) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 07:11 pm:

The entire roster of artists and musicians on the Fortune label. Never, ever got enough credit.

By Sly fan (67.119.52.222) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 07:21 pm:

Jimmy Reed
Steely Dan
Muddy Waters
Albert King
Rufus Thomas
Booker T and The Mg's
The Mar Keys
Muscle Shoals (seems like they did over-overtime!!)
Candi Staton (criminally overlooked)
MFSB (criminally overlooked, Hey Mr. E!!)
Lee Michaels
Calvin Carter
Charles Wright and The 105 st. Rhythym Band
Betty Davis (not the actress)
Bernie Worell
Fred Wesley
Maceo Parker
Ruth Copeland
and every great engineer!!!!

keep em' coming!!

By Sly fan (67.119.52.222) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 07:33 pm:

FYI: Syvia Robinson was the first person to make money off Rap Music and its artist in terms of starting up a label, but those guys were doing that way before she jumped on the scene.

Technically, the first rap record was by a group called The Fatback Band (another great group!!) called "King Tim" but it didnt really blow up the way "Delight" did.

By Sly fan (67.119.52.222) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 07:45 pm:

how can I forget.....

PRINCE.

By stephanie (64.63.221.166) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 08:05 pm:

Hey Fury
Who was on the Fortune Label? Im glad you all are glad about the thread because I didnt know if there would be that much interest. GOOD CALL on Paul Williams on OV Wright!!!! Man Paul was dynamite live and its too bad the general public doesnt really talk about him. Slyfan Im so glad you mentioned Vee Jay records I have records by the Beatles on that label and NISH thanks for mentioning my man George Kerr. He is the best I wish he had gotten his props. He produced a group called the Skullsnaps and I have been reading on the Internet that the group had a riff taken from them thats in TONS of rap records and he is not getting credit for it. Does anyone remember the Skullsnaps?
Stephanie

By Sly fan (67.119.52.222) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 08:11 pm:

I usually dont curse but OH S*&$!!! George Kerr produced the SKULLSNAPPS as in "Im Your Pimp" and "Its a new day" SKULLSNAPPS??? I gotta go and check my album sleeve!!!

Mr. Kerr is verry underated and he produced one of my favorite groups: The Escorts. "Look Over Your Shoulder" is STILL a cold jam!!

Since yall are talkig about OV Wright...ya gotta throw the great Syl Johnson in there too...Good calls Steph, Nish and everybody!!

By Sly fan (67.119.52.222) on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 08:13 pm:

wow Steph you have the original Beatles pressing on Vee Jay!!

BRAVO!!! Im sacred of you!!!

By Eli (151.197.40.160) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 12:02 am:

Not to sound self efacing, but I personally feel that all of the members of MFSB have been treated as "stepchildren of soul" and not given our props as they have been given to the Funks and even the MG's. Only those "in the know" can tell you who Ronnie Baker was or Norman Harris or Earl Young and the rest.
We have not been glorified in the muscic mags and mentioned only as also rans!!

Ronnie Baker was one of the greatest and tastiest bass players alive.
Earl Young created the template for a generation of dance music.
Norman Harris was not only a great guitarist but a world class arranger and producer.
Leon Huff , Lenny Pakula and Thom Bell Keyboards
Larry Washington was the glue that held it aall together slinking his way through the groove with his sinewy rhythms.
Vince Montana..Latin Jazz personified.
Roland Chambers, the "Segovia of Soul"
Don Renaldo,the concert meister!!
Zach Zackery, from Be bop to Hip hop.

And of course Karl Chambers,Charles Collins and
Quinton Joseph Drums
Jimmy Williams Bass
Dennis Harris, TJ Tindal, Tony Bell, Billy Neale Guitars
Ron Kersey, "Cotton" Kent, Dexter Wansel, Eddie Green Keyboards.
and of course all of the peripheral musicians too numerous to mention.

God bless all of these great people.

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 08:35 am:

HEY STEPH,TALK ABOUT UNDERAPRECIATED HOW ABOUT..SAMMY STRAIN OF THE O'JAYS WHO GOT NOOOOOOO LEADS ON ANY SINGLES HIS WHOLE TIME WITH THEM,I'VE SEEN THEM IN CONCERT AND HE DIDN'T SING ANY LEADS.I DON'T THINK HE GOT ANY WITH LIL ANTHONY EITHER!

By Scratcher (65.132.77.125) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 09:15 am:

He (Sammy Strain) does some co-leading on "Serious Hold On Me" and performed the rap part when the O'Jays did "Have You Had Your Love Today" live.

By stephanie (64.63.221.206) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 09:53 am:

Eli
I DONT know the name of the players with MFSB and Im so glad that you named them as well as yourself. I have to be honest with you I was waiting for someone like you or Deke or Dennis to say whether or not you all felt like just due had not been given to you. I dont mean this the way it sounds but I think you know what I mean. If I had done a lot of great things in music and I mean great and people didnt talk about it or the critics had forgotten me Id be upset. I think this may have contributed to the problems of James Jamerson. He is so revered now but at the time and in the 80s he was not invited to the Motown 25 show (I dont think) and he was ignored and now he is hailed as a genius!!!! I wish that people could have shown these sentiments while he was living. I dont blame Little Richard for running around all of these years and bragging on himself someone had to do it if he didnt!!! Little Richard is an innovator along with Ike Turner (what he did to Tina was wrong) but this man does not get his just due in music. The BRITS remember him for his contributions of Rocket 88 and the people he discovered and he was one of the first to have a studio and publishing and all of that. You should read his book Takin Back My Name its hilarious because of the language but the historical aspect of the book is quite interesting and Ike tells a good story and doesnt bash Tina as you would expect.
Stephanie

By stephanie (64.63.221.206) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 09:59 am:

Oh yes Mr George Kerr WROTE Im Your Pimp and Produced that whole album!!!!!! I have always wondered or does anyone know why Sammy Strain left the Ojays to go back to Little Anthony and the Imperials. Im not trying to spread rumors but someone said a long time ago he was drinking and the Ojays didnt like it. I dont know if thats true though Im sure it could have been anything. For him to leave the Ojays and go to Little Anthony ...Mr Anthony must pay well. My brother who plays the bass for some oldies groups said he is one of the highest paid Oldies acts around along with the Platters. Although the Platters dont have the originals and there are at least 5 or 6 different platters roming around people go because of the name. I think thats a shame that these bogus groups are going around its not fair but that was on another thread so I digress. Im so glad that Bobby Eli is here to set us straight on the Sound of Philadelphia ..Gamble and Huff get their props but that house band is forgotten to the public its time to give them an award like the Funk Brothers
Stephanie

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.154) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 10:10 am:

w.r.t. Paul Williams.

One recent example of him literally not getting the credit he deserves is in the Dave Marsh book "The Heart of Rock & Soul: The 1001 Greatest Singles Ever Made". The book lists two lesser known, but excellent, Temptations singles, "I Want a Love I Can See", and "Don't Look Back". So far so good. Unfortunately, he attributes the lead vocal on the former to Eldridge Bryant and the latter (IIRC) to David Ruffin. It's a great list book with some good articles on the songs, but it's a bummer that Paul Williams' proper credit seems to have slipped by Marsh and his editors twice.

(This is from memory. When I get a chance to confirm or contradict this with the book in my hand, I'll verify or correct the above.)

Regards,
Ken

By Scratcher (65.132.77.125) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 10:11 am:

The Skull Snaps also recorded as the Diplomats.

After Strain left, two more first tenors also did short stints with the O'Jays before they plucked a Clevelander name Binky.

By STUBASS (152.163.189.235) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 10:12 am:

AT FIRST I THOUGT THAT STEPHANIE HAD STARTED A THREAD ABOUT ARTISTS THAT HAVE FILED BANKRUPTCY AND NOW CAN'T OBTAIN FINANCING FOR THEIR NEW CAR OR HOME...BUT NOW I SEE IT MORE CLEARLY...AND I'D LIKE TO ADD MY VOTE TO FIRST OF ALL...DETROIT'S UNSUNG MUSICAL HERO'S...THE "FUNK BROTHERS"...CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF NOT RECIEVING CREDIT FOR THEIR EXTRORDINARY MUSICAL CAREERS!!!...ALSO...WHOEVER SAID PAUL WILLIAMS OF THE TEMPTATIONS...ASIDE FROM HIS LEADS THAT HAVE BEEN LARGELY OVERLOOKED BY MUCH OF THE PUBLIC...PAUL WAS ALSO THE BEST DANCER IN THE GROUP...AND HAD A LOT OF INFLUENCE IN THE GROUPS CHORIOGRAPHY!!!...FINALLY...SESSION MUSICIANS IN GENERAL...ALONG WITH THE ARRANGERS...PRODUCERS...AND ENGINEERS!!!...THE ARTISTS ARE THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG IN ANY SUCCESSFUL RECORDING PROJECT!!...STU

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 10:26 am:

HEY KEN,I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT THESE ARTICLES THAT DON'T GIVE THE FACTS CORRECTLY,I REMEMBER ONE THAT STATED THAT OTIS AND MELVIN[RETIRED]FROM THE TEMPS IN 1970,HA!I UNDERSTAND A NOVICE LIKE ME GETTING FACTS WRONG,BUT WHEN IT COMES FROM PEOPLE WHO WRITE ABOUT THE MUSIC SCENE FOR A LIVING WELLLL???

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 10:59 am:

Ken:
You are dead-on regarding Dave Marsh's mis-information regarding Paul Williams. In fact, the mis-info. regarding Ruffin singing lead on "I Want A Love I Can See" was reprinted in a Motown/Rhino CD compilation of Temptations' rare tracks & album cuts ("Hum Along & Dance" was the CD).
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Liovnia Ken (136.1.1.154) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 11:02 am:

I know what you mean, R&B. To be fair, Dave Marsh is one of the guys who usually gets this stuff right. It was just unfortunate in these two cases (out of 1001 singles covered in the book, he could probably make a few more mistakes before his batting average starts to suffer). I would still enthusiastically recommend the book to folks who love rock and soul music, and hope that it gets corrected in future printings.

Regards,
Ken

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 11:02 am:

Bobby Eli:
I guess it's time for MFSB to do a movie called "Standing In The Shadows of Gamble & Huff" !
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (152.163.189.235) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 11:05 am:

CAN'T FORGET HER!!!...LET'S NOT FORGET THE TREMENDOUSLY TALENTED PATTI AUSTIN...NOT ONLY FOR HER OUTSTANDING VOICE AS REVEALED ON RECORDS AND CD'S...BUT THE WAY SHE BROUGHT TO LIFE SO MANY OF THE PRODUCTS WE PURCHASE ON A DAILY BASIS...LIKE MCDONALDS...KENTUCKY FRIEND CHICKEN...AND ALL OF THE SPOTS AND JINGLES THAT SHE HAS PERFORMED ON!!!...STU

By Fury13 (209.69.165.10) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 11:29 am:

Stephanie:

The Fortune roster included the Five Dollars, Andre Williams, Nolan Strong & the Diablos, Joe Weaver & his Blue Note Orchestra, and Nathaniel Mayer.

That's the tip of the iceberg but those are probably the label's best-known acts.

Nolan Strong was THE major influence on Smokey Robinson's early vocal style.

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 11:40 am:

HEY MEL,I'M GLAD YOU LISTED DEE DEE WARWICK,DOES ANYONE REMEMBER A LITTLE GEM SHE DID CALLED..GIRLS NEED LOVE?

By stephanie (64.63.221.94) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 11:40 am:

OH thanks Fury I didnt know Nolan Strong was on the Fortune label. Hey guys and dolls regarding Dave Marsh he is one of the better resident music critics out there Im shocked he got that wrong too. I have that book and its excellent!!!! Oh well off to work and then I will read the board some more.
Stephanie

By TonyRussi (68.18.224.201) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 12:49 pm:

I met Sammy Strain right before he joined the O'Jays, he was working for a record distributor in L.A. and was married to Yvonne Fair.As far as I know Little Anthony & the Imperials are all the original members and they do get top dollar for their bookings and are a top draw.At this particular time maybe it was financially better for Mr. Strain to go back to Anthony.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.38) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 01:19 pm:

Hey R&B,
I have a couple of old tapes I did years ago with as much Mercury and Blue Rock sounds on that I either had or borrowed at the time,
and on a Dee Dee Warwick compilation the track you mentioned is there.
'Girl's Need Love'as well as a few others.
I am still on the prowl for as much Blue Rock material as possible.
A great pair of C-L-A-S-S Label's.
Mel.

By Sly fan (64.169.107.212) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 02:44 pm:

Thanx Steph!!

Mr. Eli I totally agree, even as writers Gamble/Huff/Bell never get their due!! I noted MFSB as crimially overlooked on my earlier post. You guys (in my opinion) SAVED R&B and Soul music and created other genres to come. You guys will never be anybody's stepchildren!! You guys continued the chapter in the legacy of Soul and R&B, POP and music in general. Heroes you are!!


I gotta throw Mr. Willie Mithchell and The HI Records sound too.

By Sly fan (64.169.107.212) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 02:45 pm:

correction:Willie Mitchell

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 03:29 pm:

Steph,

Did Tony Hicks come up with those cool Hollies riffs? If so, I agree, he is under rated.

KevGo,

I worked on the Look Through Any Window intro for years (off and on) before I got it, and I needed a digital phrase sampler to do it. It is a 6 string with some very creative use of open strings in the arpeggio. It's not hard to play once you figure out, but Mr. Hicks was really clever creating it. Same can be said for the intro of Long Cool Woman.

I think Dave Davies didn't get enough credit for his guitar and especially his wonderful, high background vocals.

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 03:38 pm:

AS THE OL PROSPECTOR WOULD SAY..CONFIBULIGATIN,MEL YOU'RE STILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE MAN,GUMBLASTIT!!

By j (64.12.97.7) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 03:50 pm:

Milli Vinilli din't get enough credit

By medusa (66.73.0.205) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 08:57 pm:

Sweet James & the Fantastic Four
Enchantment
Dramatics
Beau Williams (when he was singing secular)
Miles Jaye
Rockie Robbins
Mike Jimerson
Oleta Adams
Glenn Jones
Dorothy Moore
just 2 name a few

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.55) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 09:58 pm:

Carl Hall.
Edward Hamilton.
Betty Everett.
Betty Swann.
Jackie Day.
Carl Douglas.
Herb Johnson and the Impacts.
Little Jimmy Scott.
Bobby Eli.
Freddie Butler.
Tommy Hunt.
Brenda and the Tabulations.
Chris Bartley.
Bessie Banks.
Bobby Rush.
Buddy Ace.
Lee Rogers.
Jimmy Radcliffe.
Bobby McClure.
Clyde Wilson/Steve Mancha.
Buddy Lamp.
Dennis Coffee.
Ruby Johnson.
Luther Ingram.
Freddie Houston.
Jimmy Holiday.
Mamie Galore.
Four Sonics.
The Younghearts.
Johnny Williams.
Barbara Carr.
Wales Wallace.
Charles Drain.
Don Varner.

By boynextdoor (65.238.91.218) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 11:13 pm:

Jean Terrell of The Supremes (Wow...what a voice)
Linda Jones
Darlene Love
Brenda Payton
Ruby Nash
Cindy Birdson (added nice harmony/backrounds)
Morgana King! Her voice blows me away and no one ever seems to talk about her (that I know of).

By Eli (151.197.38.159) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 04:27 am:

Mel,

Thanks for including me in this thread!!

Also, I reccomend Paulie 3 shoes!!

By John Lester (81.132.43.11) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 07:15 am:

boynextdoor

I had never heard of Morgana King until I read an article on Brenda Holloway. It seems to be Brenda's idol...can you tell me about her?

Mel

Harry Weinger did a Cd set on the Blue Rock story a couple of years back...and no doubt you know about the Dee Dee Warwick CD collection

BUT.

Talking of uncredited artists..........

Lawrence Payton of the Four Tops. I know it is not right to single any one of them but it seems thar Lawrence was more talented than was ever acknowledged.

By boynextdoor (65.238.91.109) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 08:26 am:

I really don't know that much about Morgana King's personal life. She was a jazz singer in the 50's/60's and was singing into the 90's, I think. She's Italian. She played the mother in The Godfather. She has a most interesting voice. I've never heard a voice quite like it. A wide range and a unique approach to the delivery.

By B.Soul (152.163.189.235) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 08:53 am:

Lawrence Payton of the Four Tops. He wrote and produced of most of their material in the 1970's and even sang lead on some of their album track. Albums such as " Meeting of the Minds-Tell me you love me(Love Sounds)", Catfish-You can't hold back on love, Nature Planned It-If you let me, and Nights Light Harmony-We all gotta stick together. He even produced the Catfish and The Show must Go On" albums.
Renaldo "Obie" Benson even sang lead on some songs. However, did Abdul Duke Fakir ever get a chance to sang lead and if so which songs did he sing on.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.83) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 03:14 pm:

I would just like to also mention
Ralph Terranna.
for all the fine work he has turned me on to since I first had the pleasure to listen to it way back in my early years on the rare soul scene.
And still have many 45s today that Ralph was involved with.

And also to another great talent,
like so many others on this site,
that has given me,like Ralph,so many great 45s to listen to.
Weldon A McDougal 111

You guys and so many others deserve a hell of a lot more credit,its because of the likes of you guys that I personally got into the rare soulscene in a big big way. And still collect today,
So fellas for what its worth,
I Thank you both (and all ) for all the superb music that you hav given me pleasure to listen to.
PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!
mel(andthensome).

p.s.
must mention Paulie 3 Shoes.
Dont want no heat from your boys Paulie.

By John Lester (213.123.112.26) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 07:03 am:

Two points from me.

Bobby
I totally agree with you that MFSB do not get the recognition that they richly deserve. In the 70's, I seem to recall it was mostly "MFSB" and not any specific individual. As time went on, I recall Norman Harris doing "I Wish" and it seemed from about that time, there was more exposure. I even recall seeing YOUR name on quite a few of my 45's and thinking "this guy is on my wavelength - but what else has he done that I dont know of"! I guess comparisons with the Funk Brothers come to mind here and I suppose that one would only comment that the Funk Brothers originated from an earlier era when credits were gotten hold of with much more difficulty.

B.Soul
On Lawrence Payton, I was thinking more of the Tops' Motown period. I recall a credit on the guys' "On Broadway" album but very little else. Harry and Stu Hackell could tell you much more about Lawrence's work at Motown....he's definitely very under rated.

By B.soul (152.163.189.235) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:22 am:

What about the Whispers. They had some very smooth harmonies and moves on stage.(And the beat goes on, Lady, Olivia lost and turned out) True Classics)
P.S., can someone please answer the thread "What ever happened to The Whispers". I posted it on Tuesday. Thanks,

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 09:46 am:

Thanks for the mention Mel. I just happened to be around at the time.

By Leoscasino (66.72.193.195) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 07:26 pm:

Jimmy Scott

By Mark Speck (65.56.62.167) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 12:06 am:

Damn...everyone I can think of has been mentioned!

How about Jay Wiggins, Tommy Hunt, Paul Weller, Alvin Robinson, Marshall Crenshaw, Pal Rakes, Eddie Hinton, Percy Wiggins (and his brother Spencer), Paul Carrack, Bill Brandon, Judy White, Baby Washington...the list is indeed endless!

Steph--not only has Tony Hicks been with the Hollies for years, but so has Bobby Elliott and one other guy whose name I can't recall.

Best,

Mark

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 11:24 am:

John C:
Thanks for the tip regarding Tony Hicks' guitar work. I was listening to my Hollies 45s this past weekend and their musicianship and songwriting still impresses me.

I also realized that Graham Nash shared many lead vocals on their singles - "On A Carousel" & "Dear Eloise" are just two of them.

Re: Morgana King - she had a very unique voice that could've sung opera & classical as well as jazz (she was a high soprano). She recorded for the Mercury, Reprise & Mainstream labels from the early 1950s to mid 1960s (she recorded a version of "Fascinating Rhythm" in a slow three-time waltz tempo).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 07:52 pm:

This is a long thread..
I'd like to add Tammi Terrell to it..I don't think she gets enough credit for what she gave in her short life..I know that her credit is coming though..

Vickie

By Sly fan (67.119.53.200) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 09:09 pm:

B Soul: The Whispers are doing quite well as a matter of fact last month they had just performed @ The Wiltern Theater in LA.

The Mighty Whispers are very underated, I totally agree. Lets not talk about their early material such as "Bingo" and "A Mother For My Children" (with the members of the great MFSB in the personel), great records!! They still give a great show!!

By Mark Speck (65.56.216.94) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:30 am:

The people who are truly underrated--anyone who's ever had to take over for someone else in a popular act of long-standing. To wit:

Jimmy Walker, who briefly replaced Bill Medley in the Righteous Brothers.

Dennis Edwards, who replaced David Ruffin in the Temps (and anyone else who took over for an original member).

And those are just a couple of examples. Imagine having to fill a really big pair of shoes...

Best,

Mark

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:28 am:

This thread and the great Talent mentioned is the reason I quit watching the Grammy's.

I'll add to this list the sweet harmonica of Toots Thielemans.

By Flo Murdock (68.51.53.128) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:41 am:

Good call on Ruby Nash - what a beautiful voice! Mitty Collier is one of the most underrated female artists, Wade Flemons for male. The subtlety and maturity of his singing just blows me away, and he was so young. Another underrated singer is Maurice Williams, who has been quietly (almost secretly, you might say) turning out some gorgeous and soulful albums for the past 15 years that seem to just stay in the Carolinas. He can just make you melt.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:17 pm:

Flo:
Great call on Maurice Williams. I saw him on the R&B50 special on PBS performing his song "Little Darlin'" with the group that covered the tune (the Diamonds). When he sang his verse, he could've scared the Diamonds back to Canada! Maurice is also a proficient keyboardist as well.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sly fan (67.115.75.176) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 02:39 pm:

good call on Toots!! "Q" has always used Toots on his compsitions for years.

Little Milton & Bobby Blue Bland.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 04:37 pm:

Thanks Sly fan for Toots. Who's "Q"?

Nat Cole Trio doesn't get the credit they deserve. Because of those insidious K-Tel commecials I grew up thinking Nat Cole was only about:
"Ramblin Rose"
"Mona Lisa"
"Darling Zhe-vous Zhem-beaucoups..."

Nothing I've heard can match the Nat Cole Trio from '42-46 for smooth, intimate sounds.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 05:40 pm:

Larry:
"Q" is Quincy Jones' nickname.
Agreed regarding the Nat Cole Trio - them and Charles Brown did the smoothest club trio productions this side of Route 66. I have their early Capitol 78s that sound excellent.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By 1wicked (24.126.64.120) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 07:11 pm:

I'm tardy...been PC-less (since I'm now job-less)...but WRT Eli's post, from the moment I heard "Freddie's Dead" from the 1st MFSB album I was a fan. Being the liner note junkie that I am, I memorized the players & tried to discern the style of each...trying to understand the unique flavor everyone brought to the table. That's what made me flip over Earl Young's style. In fact...Babbit's Philly sessions are what made me go back & study Jamerson. (Bass-ackwards I know...but that's how it worked for me.)

By Sly fan (64.169.107.252) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 08:58 pm:

Jamerson is still a bass god if there ever was one. I was listening to Marvin Gaye's "Lets Get It On" box set and I was just in awe over the Funk Bros. especially on the the intstrumental cuts "Running From Love" and "Mandota". Oooo weee, I got goosebumps just listening to those guitar solos, can anyone tell me who the personel was on those two songs...

The Funk Bros. are too great for words!!

Question for Mr. Coffey: Is that Jamerson on Bass for the Dramatics "In The Rain", and is that The Funks playing on "Watcha See" I knew it wasnt "The Movement" or "The Bar Kays" (underated for their work as well, Stax sound, etc) the sound is very Funk Bros. oriented. Beautiful work!!

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:04 pm:

Thanks KevGo.

Yeah Sly Fan, like they say....
"there wouldn't be a Motown w/o Jamerson". I say there would've been of course, but, it sure would've been different.

Jamerson is in that special category of innovators like Monk and Hendrix. I love Bird, but, sometimes he sounds like Coleman Hawkins on speed. Not to pick on Charlie cuz i love that man, you've heard him cop his own shit all the time. Other GREATS you can see their influences.
Jamerson never played the same bar twice and held it together dripping with vision and creativity.

He's not Ray Brown or Paul Chambers.

Jamerson & The Fender P Bass.
Case closed.

By Vandelron (24.44.20.172) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:24 pm:

Lorraine Ellison(Stay With Me--one critic says her performance is best on record,another says Darlene Love-Xmas Baby Please Come Home);;The Emotions;Sam Harris(criminally ignored);;Brenda Holloway(stole the show at Berry's testimonial);;Labelle(groundbreaking,paved the way,merged soul,rock and gospel,harmony and power beyond words and Nona's writing);Vesta;Cheryl Lynn;Isleys;Sylvester;Elgins;Young Rascals;Timi Yuro;Jean Terrell(best voice ever at Motown and maybe anywhere at its peak);Cindy Birdsong;Fats Domino,Laura Nyro.