By stephanie (64.63.221.117) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 01:55 pm:

I really dont understand this!!! People like George Kerr and Sylvia Robinson (Pillow Talk) and even Hall and Oates who had a slew of hits here are forgotten. When these people go overseas they are treated like the Beatles!!! I talked to Shadow Morton on the phone once and he told me that producers are hailed overseas. He did the Shangri las!!! He said he saw his name on a marquee and couldnt believe it.

Minnie Riperton's Come into My Garden is an import from Japan!!! Its nowhere to be found here.
Are we as Americans that fickle when it comes to music? I love the old stuff but if the UK and the Japanese and everyone else loves it whats wrong with us. I had no idea until a few years ago how popular George Clinton and Funkadelic are in Japan!!! Can Eli or Ralph or KevGo or someone in the business please explain this to me. I heard Linda Jones is a phenomenon overseas...
How can these CD's be selling so much there and not here. My God John Lester knows more about the Velvelettes than they know about themselves, he has a shrine to Motown in his place and he even knows all of the catalog numbers to every single Motown song ever made!!! When I read the books of David Nathan and people like that and the love that the Brits and people overseas have for our music Im so ashamed. I wish WE could have small clubs and have (well we couldnt call it Northern Soul) but forgotten soul or something and dance to those records. Please explain to me does this stuff really do that well overseas and why WE Americans cant have that same fervor over here.
Stephanie

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:00 pm:

That's a good question. I guess it's like the migration of jazz musicians to France in the late '50's, although I don't for the life of me know why.

By Horse (68.61.77.137) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:11 pm:

It could very well be that Europeans value their art forms at a different level then we do in the U.S. We tend to view music as a recreational type thing. I'm not speaking for all, and definitely not the individuals on this forum, as they are music lovers and here for that reason. Maybe they have there priorities relating to art better focused than most. They have an excellent appreciation for jazz and provide the venues for the artists. I don't know. Can someone from overseas share their outlook?

By Scratcher (63.188.48.55) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:38 pm:

Stephanie, if you listen to the popular stations in Europe you'll find that they play pretty much the same thing you hear on similar stations here. The big pop and urban hits here are usually big hits around the world as well. You can listen to stations worldwide via RealAudio or Windows Media.

Northern Soul and oldie soul is a niche market that you mainly hear on Internet stations and weekend stations in England and other European countries. But fans overseas do seem to appreciate this music more; they also appreciate jazz better than we do in the States.

As for record sales, the figures are so low that American companies don't bother getting into the northern soul market. But as far as magazines, zines, collectors, etc., a hardcore niche do seem to appreciate it more than the average American.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 02:46 pm:

Steph,
It's a big mystery to me also. A couple of years ago I started receiving e-mails from Richard Norris in England regarding the popularity of The Sunliners there. Then a chance meeting with David Meikle of Soulful Detroit fame and I find how revered my Tera Shirma Studios are in Europe. Maybe Europeans are just more respectful of what we Americans have achieved in the past and aren't so quick to dismiss us to Yesterday's trash can. At any rate ( and I'm sure I'm speaking for Bobby, Clay, Jack, Babbitt, Deke, Russ et al ) I am flattered by the respect shown us. It doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:05 pm:

Obviously, I can't comment on Japan, or other far-flung corners of the globe, but for a British perspective...

The UK has always been happy to welcome music from the US, from at least the end of the 19th Century onwards. The Cakewalk, Ragtime, Jazz, Swing - all were taken on board here. (The Original Dixieland Jass Band even played the London Palladium in the 1920s!) We welcomed the Mills Brothers and Fats Waller, who toured and were well-received all over the country. There were hysterical scenes when Johnny Ray first appeared in London. And, we lapped up Rock'n'Roll, (even if we were ultimately disappointed to see the tubby, middle-aged Bill Haley in the flesh!)

The Pirate Radio stations weaned us into accepting Soul music in the sixties, and it's worth remembering that many of these were set up by US backers.

So, music has always been a gratefully-received gift from our American cousins - accepted with love and admiration. Perhaps we, as the lucky recipients simply appreciate and cherish the gift bestowed on us more than the donors.

By Lynn Bruce (65.60.202.214) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:16 pm:

Around 1973 I was touring Spain.When we were in Andalucia,the southern province,where flamenco guitar music started with the Spanish gypsies.I couldnt wait to hear real authentic flamenco guitar playing.My first night there in Seville,I turned on my little radio. Wouldn't you know it! The first song I hear in the home of flamenco music is"BOOGIE CHILLIN" by John Lee Hooker,a detroit song.I think I laughed for the rest of the night. I also went in a small cantina(bar) and went in the mens room,and on the wall someone had written" DETROIT,MURDER CAPITAL OF THE WORLD".

I wasn't to sure whether to laugh or get upset on that one. I chose to go out and down a few more vinos and laugh about it. It's a small world!!!

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:23 pm:

I agree! The music has mystery and a feel good factor like no other. It lives forever in our hearts. It is only a matter of time before specialist clubs crop up all over the place. The UK scene is a niche market and has been for a long time. I am sure it will continue and with a little help from our American friends, who are releasing the more obscure soul for us to collect. My latest CD includes 'The Phonetics/Just a boys dream' and the 'Fred Smith Orchestra/Baby do the Philly dog' - fantastic stuff! I could swear that is Jack Ashford on the tambourine! Jack?? The music makes me want to sing and dance forever! Ralph, I am sure you could make a bob or two with those Tera Shirma T -shirts!

By Patrick (67.38.8.172) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:29 pm:

No, it is not a mystery to me. You want to know why the Euros value our music so much more???? Because it is exotic and fresh to them. Europeans like quality and genuine products, unlike here in America, where Britney Spears dominates MTV. The Europeans value American music because American music IS Pop music. They want to hear the original stuff. Europeans like variety and change in their music. That is why the music genres are constantly rotating in Europe, but in America, some artists remain big for five or more years.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:34 pm:

Stephanie:
I understand your frustration. I've seen it from all sides - record executive, radio DJ and retail supervisor for a British-owned record store chain (HMV Records, and you should see the CDs they carry over in England of American R&B!).

First of all, Minnie Riperton's Come Into My Garden was reissued here in the USA by Varese Sarabande Records (they licensed it from Janus Records, the owners of the masters). Also about half the original album can be found on the Capitol Records double CD "Petals: The Minnie Riperton Anthology" that was compiled by my friend A. Scott Galloway with the cooperation of Minnie's widow Richard Rudolph. Also Hall & Oates' latest CD is selling in strong numbers and their latest single is at #2 on Billboard's adult contemporary chart.

I posed your question to my colleague Patrick King who manages the HMV Record Store here in NYC (and is from Scotland). He said that in the UK/England, especially in the working-class Northern area, the folks there accepted the music early on because of its uniqueness, emotion and (in some cases) sophistication - as well as being a music that was completely American made and different from what they heard in their homeland. Because of this uniqueness, they gravitated towards R&B with a fervor.

Why don't we show that same fervor? The opinions vary but from my experience it's because of the belief that generation has to have something they can call its own - from fashion to language to music. Add onto this the "my generation's music is better than yours" war (which I try my best to stay out of) and the snobbery that comes with it. Also there is this "taking for granted" attitude folks seem to have when it comes to certain things especially music because it's seen & heard everyday.

I hope this answers your questions, Stephanie. I encourage you to PLEASE write to the record labels & demand that you want to have the music you love reissued. Also, like David Meikle & Lowell did with Soulful Detroit, start a "yahoo-group" - type of thing devoted to the music you love and create a "support group" for your favorite artists/groups. If every music fan did this, no artist would be without an audience.

Respectfully,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:57 pm:

Nice one Kevin! And play the tracks loud on your hi fi at home and in the car. Make sure your MP3 player is fully loaded with great soul and sing like crazy when you shop.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 04:37 pm:

Carl:
Thanks so much. I've got my Tamla-Motown boxed set next to my Style Council anthology & I'm ready to let it rip!
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (151.197.37.150) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 05:13 pm:

Kev.... When you talk to Scott Galloway again, please give him my contact info as I haven't spoken to him in quite a while and I know that he does not have it and it would be great to talk to him again and he has done some very nice things for me . Is he still at Urban Radio Network??

Steph....
Throughout my many trips to the UK and other European countries,I never cease to be amazed by the vast knowledge of our music and the copious amount of respect that I receive when I am there.
And it does not apply to just Europe, but just about everywhere I go. When I go to Jamaica, I have a hard time leaving as I am spoiled by the treatment that I receive.
It makes me not want to come back to Philly where I feel as though I am an "afterthought" at best.
The Philly music scene has a hard time embracing and recognizing it's own and it has always been that way, especially at the radio level.

If the cost of living wasn't so high in the UK, I would be living there now, as I have aaaaaaalways had a strong connection with the people there and I feel very much at home there.

Also, I have been thinking about approaching several of the "smaller" radio stations about the possibility of doing a radio show whereby I would play rare and "Northern" type records and give background history on them and whenever possible, have a featured artist live in the studio.
As it stands, this would only be possible if I bought airtime myself, which I may do and see what happens.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 05:54 pm:

Bobby:
Scott Galloway is still at the Urban Network.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 04:13 am:

Bobby - the radio station idea would be great, from your perpective too, as a writer, musician and electronic scrotum supplier (permission granted Ralph, to delete that word if it offends). I have a relation that works for one of your 'Clearwater' channels. You could try a ground breaking move and get sydicated, in the States.

By Rich (162.33.235.28) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 09:13 am:

All of us Americans have to admit, we dispose of everything. As a whole, we buy stuff to replace it. All of us have said at one time or another about a tune that was once one of our favorites.

"hey man, turn that #### off, that's played-out"

Once played out, its like you can never play it again. At least not for a looooong time. Like an old dance, once its done ... its done. Not sayin' it right, thats just how we do. I dare those who disagree to go to a club & do the Robot.

Then again, we can't judge Europeans too kindly either, while a great many profess their appreciation for R&B, Jazz & Funk, my understanding from people who visit is that a bulk of the continent been listening to industrial & techno non-sense for the past 20 years. A form of music so sterile it makes top-40 Rap sound down-right organic.

Peace

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 09:39 am:

STYLES IN AMERICA CHANGE SO FAST,ESPECIALLY IN MUSIC TODAY AS RICH JUST SAID HERE TODAY GONE TONIGHT,THAT'S WHY FORUMS LIKE THIS ARE SO IMPORTANT.

By Jim G (12.47.224.13) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 09:56 am:

If people on the continent or in UK are listening to techno, perhaps that music best fits the tempo of their lives. Maybe the differences between our cultures are now minimal.
I know in UK there is quite a bit of Indian music--"Bagra" I believe, kind of a mix of techno, traditional Indian music with some soul thrown in. Very interesting.
Another aspect of this thread, is research. There have been, and are, non-US researchers who document US music. This is a considerable challenge for them. Listing who played on what with whom is useful, but to put the music, musicians, and culture into context is difficult. To do this without living here is damn near impossible.
There are excellent UK or Continental research people who have done just that: Brian Priestly, Alyn Shipton, Mike Rowe, Johnny Simmen. But they are few and far between.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 10:07 am:

Jim - surely you're not suggesting that those of us (non-US) devotees who research US music history are wasting our time?? A historian may write authoritatively about life in ancient Rome, but I defy you to bring me one who actually lived there!

By acooolcat (61.30.125.3) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 10:51 am:

Stephanie,
I think one point worth mentioning is that Brits who love Soul music (and other genres) couldn't care less about the success of the record or artist in terms of record sales and chart action. In fact there's an elemant of inverted snobbery - the more obscure the better! It seems to me that American culture is too focused on what is, or isn't, "successful".
Perhaps they should try to sit down and simply appreciate the actual quality of the music/recording. But that's difficult in a country where the word "loser" is thrown around at random.
Graham

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:14 am:

Graham:
That's why folks at Ace/Kent and West Side are so successful - they take what is deemed obscure music & reissue it with loads of information (and careful remastering) to create some fine compilations.
As far as America's focus on what is successful and what is not, there are those of us who do appreciate rarities (the collectors' market) but in the overall run of things, the more successful an item is the more money it makes and that's what keeps the lights on. For example, when HMV Record Stores came to the USA (I was one of their first hires at their Manhattan stores in 1990), they thought having a wide selection of music and great customer service would make them a success. However, as time went on that wasn't the case. What kept the bills paid was having the top selling CDs on sale and selling a ton of DVDs at discount. Being out of a rare soul compilation was not going to set them back.
I will always admire our UK brothers & sisters for their devotion to American R&B. Hopefully, I can someday visit England and see this for myself.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:23 am:

Kevin

We'll have the red carpet ready and waiting :o)

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:29 am:

I wonder...
....if it has something to do with the fasination of things American? My friend Mike and I were thinking (me more seriously than him) of moving to Australia in the late '60's because they were going ga-ga about U.S. style DJ's.

By Scratcher (65.132.78.129) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:34 am:

Jim G: you're absolutely correct. It's akin to an American documenting reggae who has never lived in Jamaica. There's something special about listening to music when its fresh on the radio, at canteens, cook outs, clubs, television shows and hearing artists perform their "new" releases live the first time around.

Chart showings don't tell a true or complete picture. It's hard to describe how popular the original Manhattans (Carnival Records) were in black communities. (They had to be, Joe Evans didn't even have a national distributor for the label). Records like "Can I," "Follow Your Heart," "I'm the One Love Forgot," "When We Were Made As One," "I Wanna Be" and some others barely showed on the pop charts but were staples at black gatherings. Billy Paul and David Porter's "War of the Gods" and "Victim of a Joke" albums respectively were popular in black communities too but are virtually forgotten; neither has been reissued on CD.

It's also hard explaining to outsiders that some artists and recordings that they love so dearly had little or no impact in the States. In these cases, the outside researcher and the American are on equal grounds. Some of the recordings they've unearthed are new to me too.

Overall, it's good that somebody has documented the music, artists and the labels, which is an ongoing process. Cause it they hadn't much of the info would be lost as many of the principals are decease and their kin usually are lacking in regards to any info about the brief and insignificant (to some) recording careers of their relatives.

Many have a problem with it being foreigners who are doing this, but if they didn't, who would?

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:38 am:

I think we grew out of that 'fascination' a long time ago, (although, in Spain it seems that "Americano" is still used extensively to promote products, along with the other favourite marketing ploys: "nuevo" and "gratis"!) Nevertheless, over here I suspect we probably know more about the US than most American folks know about the UK :o)

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:47 am:

Sratcher - with respect, as a "foreigner" I do beg to differ. I have a website, part of which is devoted to Reggae music. My site is on a small list of "recommended resources", published by the National Library of Jamaica. As a non-Jamaican, I take that as a compliment. Just to further illustrate the point, the acknowledged world expert on Jamaican music is a Dutchman.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:47 am:

Scratcher:
Thank you for nailing it on the head. I must admit that I had never heard of Carnival Records or the Manhattans' "Can I" until Ace/Kent released a three CD anthology of that label's work - and my old record store was on West 72nd Street in Manhattan! (A few stops from Harlem!).

This is why I don't knock the overseas market for reissuing our music - at least the appreciation is taken to the level where it comes out on CD.

Ritchie:
Thanks for the kind words - no red carpet needed!
I'm no different than the next guy!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.78.129) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:59 am:

Ritchie, the UK and Jamaica have a special relationship as you well know. Isn't Jamaica a colony of England? Doesn't Jamaica give the Queen of England a parade when she visits the island? Many Jamaicans go to school in the UK and many more move there to live. A person from the UK or even Canada, which also has ties with England would not be as culturally foreign to reggae music as an American.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 12:10 pm:

Colony? Jamaica celebrated the 40th Anniversary of her independence last Summer :o)

By Scratcher (65.132.78.129) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 12:20 pm:

Kevgo, Joe Evans mainly promoted his Carnival sides to major cities with large African-American populations and might have missed your hometown Rochester altogether, particulary if Rochester didn't have a black radio station in the '60s. I hear his budget was tight and he was never able to supply distributors with all the records they wanted.

Evans played with the Choker Campbell road band that backed the Motortown Revue and would promote his Carnival sides in the cities the Revue played.

By Scratcher (65.132.78.129) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 12:25 pm:

I don't know the exact term of the relationship the UK has with Jamaica and Canada but there is one, isn't it Ritchie? It may not be a Colony but it's something, isn't it? People from Jamaica that I know who aren't 40 years old remember watching the Queen of England parade in Jamaica. I can't remember her parading in the States.

By Jim G (12.47.224.13) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

Richie,

Naw, not suggesting that at all. And I've cited three UK researchers who, in my opinion, have written authoritative books dealing with American music.
I'm merely saying that it is really difficult to 'get inside' of a particular culture and pick up on nuances if you are not a working part of that culture.
It took me over twenty years before I thought i understood the Detroit jazz scene of the 20s/30s/40s. And God knows how much I've missed!
But I was able to spend time with musicians from those eras, and that helped tremendously. I looked up old buildings, found old photographs, was given access to rare recordings, I stumbled upon valuable sources of information--all of this was possible because I live here.
But it's not only accessibility that's important.
It's...understanding the relationship between the subject material and the culture which produced it. That is the tricky part.
Not just for Detroit, but for (as you suggest) someone researching ancient Rome. How different would history books be if a ancient Roman wrote the books?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 02:25 pm:

Scratcher:
Rochester NY didn't have an R&B radio station until 1974, when WDKX-FM made it's debut.
Otherwise, we'd try to tune into WUFO-AM in Buffalo which had a decent signal. Point is that up until WDKX's debut the Top 40 stations stuck to Motown, Stax & Philly (the tunes that made the pop charts, of course).
Boy was I deprived.....
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 04:13 pm:

No no no. There's nothing to do with nationality or race here. Great music is great music. America ceased to be a comic book heaven to me while I was still at school. England before that. Motown and a lot of other great soul/blues/jazz/R&B found a resonance in our souls. The Tops, the Tempts, Martha and the Supremes spoke to us like no one British did, but that was just as true in America. They spoke to people of my age and generation better than anyone else did.

Maybe we needed it more. Maybe we appreciated it more. Maybe also, we'd had it up to here (or there) with polite and formulaic music and needed to loosen up on all fronts. We did have a tradition of appreciating instrumentalists and it seems we placed a much higher value on jazz and blues players.

I was at the 1967 Blues Festival in London, when the bus contained Buddy Guy, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee, Son House, Koko Taylor, and the soon to be late Little Walter, to name but a few. None then could get any recognition in the US.

We loved them. We owe them. They changed our lives.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:13 pm:

BankHouseDavid - I liked your last sentence. How true.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:27 pm:

What we lack in local knowledge is made up with passion beyond compare.

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:34 pm:

And another thing - you've all seen Prince Charles. In England, we have ears.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:38 pm:

David:
And that passion is mighty strong!
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:39 pm:

BankHouseDave,
I think the ears are apropos for this web-site.

By music lover (205.188.209.38) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 10:47 am:

Our music is perfection. Why wouldn't another
country want to borrow some, it's only human nature. Their are millions of in United States
that love our music. my club when opened will be called The Detroit Experience. Just remember where the music came from originally.

By Scratcher (65.132.79.167) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 08:01 pm:

Kevgo, until 1974 you basically only heard the soul recordings that crossed over. American cities of the '60s with large Black populations: New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, Washington, etc. would usually have two different soul stations you could listen to. The best time to listen was between midnight and 6am when the allnight jock played anything he liked or what people called in and requested. You heard songs in the wee wee hours that you never heard during the day.

The jocks talked fast during the day to get as many commercials in as possible. We didn't know it at the time but many of the DJ's purchased the time to do their shows and made their money by getting businessess to advertise. The more rib joint, bars, dry cleaners, auto lots and beauty parlor spots they got it the more money they made. Of course, they made money other ways too: DJ hops, promoting shows, handshakes, etc. The fastest talking jock I ever heard was a guy in Philadelphia name Sonny Hobson.

By Jay (167.167.44.218) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 08:19 pm:

Jimi Hendrix

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.141.165) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 06:33 am:

i find when i go to see american artistes in this country (uk) ie three degrees ,edwin starr etc
and also when that motown revue was put together
a few years back ,i was amazed at the lack of black people in the audiance ,i thought there own
people would give them more respect or is it they think they are old hat? everyone knows what a great hit "dillema" was ,but mention bunny sigler is to young people ,and they scratch their heads,
i talked about him on the mike ,then play one of his tunes to educate them, so you see grandads
old tunes are more up to date then you think!!
is it the same in the states. imigine if the ojays had sung "get on the f******g love train"
would they sell more records to the youth of today? it makes me wonder,if swearing is what makes a great record these days
nuf said

By Nish (216.148.246.70) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 09:28 am:

I don't have much to add to the great points that have been made, but I will say that the disposable manner in which we Americans handle our music is detrimental to the preservation of culture as a whole. I find it sad that it could very well happen in a few years that little kids won't know who some of these music pioneers are because their names are not kept in the spotlight. That's a scary and unfortunate thought to me. Thanks to the British and others for keeping it alive. And ultimately thanks to the artists, producers and musicians who gave their music to us earnestly only to be underappreciated. The whole thing disgusts me.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 10:14 am:

Countless careers were either lengthened or made because of the British love of soul music.

But I agree with Jim G and Scratcher; often too much is made, by British researchers, of national chart position. National chart position may tell a bigger story in Britain, where the national radio is heard by all, but we've always enjoyed a Balkanized radio and music scene --and we fiercely are defending it against the Clear Channel hordes.

Just because a record "only" made it to say, just below the Top 40 -- that's a huge accomplishment here, compared to the British charts, and that record may well have done much better in the black community, or in cities like Detroit where white and black listened to each other's stations.

The cultural thing is something we all struggle with after years of living here, too ...there are big regional differences that come into play.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 11:21 am:

Sue

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm intrigued by your comment about our apparent obsession with national chart positions. As most of the "Rare Soul" records and their artists never achieved chart positions of any flavour, I'm not sure where the national Pop chart relates to this. I think most of us are aware of the importance of 'local' success even if "regional hits" are a phenomenon unknown on our little island. Just wondering.. :o)

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 11:47 am:

BrianDay - I remember hearing there would be a taping of a DooWop show at the Fox here in Detroit. I didn't go because I had just seen those groups at a concert. We always support the groups at regular concerts and performances. Most of them are still active. In fact, back in the day, we supported them when most of the white people couldn't go because their parents would not allow them to attend back then. Think about the time. You will hear some posters say, "after my parents went to bed, I turned to the black station." Well, if they couldn't listen to it on the radio, you know they weren't going to the concerts. They are making up for lost time.

This last PBS special was the best of all. I would have gone to that performance because of the variety of artist. In fact, it was unique, unlike any other. I would have paid big bucks to attend that one.

I believe most of the tapes are done in Philly. I would not travel to Philly to see the show.

By Scratcher (65.134.147.170) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:18 pm:

That fast talkin' Philly DJ was Sonny Hopson not Hobson.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

Ritchie,
I'm curious, do you just disagree with me, but not with Jim G's or Scratcher's posts?

By MickD (217.44.216.8) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

Brianday,

With respect to your comments regarding the lack of black people at concerts by artist such as Edwin Starr and the three degrees. You must take into consideration that the majority of black Briton's roots are in the Carribean, and their 'cultural' music is Reggae, Ska, Rock steady, Mento and Calypso and not American Soul and R&B.

I think it would be fair to say that the majority of Black Britons feel more of a cultural connection with Lee Perry, Prince Buster or The Skatalites than Edwin Starr or the Three degrees

However that is not to say that Afro Carribeans do not appreciate soul music from the US. I can remember watching a Motorcity revue on the box a few years back recorded from a club in South London. The place was packed and the vast majority were black.

Cheers

MickD

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:44 pm:

Brian,
It's not the same in the States, we have more blacks in our audiences here, but wouldn't you say that's partly because our black population is much greater proportionately than that in the U.K.?

In Detroit, you're going to see way more blacks at an R&B/soul show than maybe in Britain, but we have a strong Afr-American population base that grew up with soul/R&B, not Caribbean music.

The coolest thing I saw, was at the R&B Reunion Show at the Millenium Theater in suburban Detroit last June -- the audience was 50% white and 50% black ...absolutely even, and everybody was going crazy over the same music they grew up on.

It's traditional blues that I see mostly a white audience, here. Others have opined on why and wherefore ...

When it comes to soul/R&B that's not the case. As for our parents letting us go or not go to see soul or R&B -- my parents loved jazz so there was no censoring of radio in our house, quite the contrary. They had a tight leash on where I went to see live shows, but that was more of an overprotective thing parents of all colors have with daughters.

They would take me to see Motown shows because it was to them, much like jazz was in their day -- music for everybody. My mom went up to New York a lot in college and saw jazz; here in Detroit they would go to the clubs we call black and tans, to catch good music.

I don't think my parents were that unusual, people of their generation loved Count Basie, Duke Ellington etc., and white musicians like Benny Goodman who gave black musicians a shot.

By Scratcher (65.134.147.170) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:08 pm:

There's not a good Billy Paul compilation CD on the market because the compilers rely on national chart positions and songs that were released as singles to make them up. A real Billy Paul fan would go through his LPs and pick out the songs "people" liked. Tunes like "War of the Gods," "I'm Just a Prisoner," "I Was Married," and others.

Chart positions have always been deceiving. Many Top 10 R&B hits were never played in some cities, even large ones with soul radio stations. Some that went to #1 didn't reach every market.

Soul music of the sixties was comprised of many recordings that were mostly local, and often block or one-side-of-the-town hits. The crossover hits became known to most but it's the local and regional hits that intrigue collectors and serious fans. If a city had soul radio programming they also had small local recording companies. The two went hand-in-hand. Blacks lived all over America in the sixties but if there was no radio station that played soul music in say...Omaha, NE or Des Moines, IA, there was no reason to start a record company in that area because you needed airplay to sell records.

The national charts came into play because if a record made the national charts the hope was that soul stations in other cities would start playing it. But this rarely happened unless payola was involved. Often companies paid to get songs listed natonally (the lower rungs) only to see them freeze at #92, drop lower the following week, and fall off completely the next, with no new stations picking it up. Money down the drain. A scam.

New Orleans in particular followed no national trend whatsoever. I would love for someone to post some playlists or charts from the '60s of a New Orleans' soul station.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:35 pm:

Sue - When I went to the Scarab Club to see Joe Weaver, Kenny Martin, Andre Williams, etc. the room was standing room only. However, there were only about 10-15 blacks in the audience.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:46 pm:

Sue

I'm certainly not spoiling for a fight with anyone here. I simply feel very disheartened when I read opinions that suggest (to me at least) that research undertaken by non-US residents is considered somehow inferior, and therefore of less or even little value. That is why I expressed genuine concern, wondering aloud if I or we are wasting our time. If this is the case, then I feel I may have wasted around 35 years on the task, and maybe should consider something else. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely anxious find out what the true opinion is - for the benefit of all of us over here.

As regards an understanding of how certain strands of music fit into the broader context of American culture, or the sociological factors which determine a record's popularity, I would unreservedly agree that US writers have the obvious advantage of a personal view from within that culture. But, when I'm writing a piece, I don't even try to address those questions, but simply tell a story that is as factually accurate as possible - dates, times, names, places etc. I'm not attempting to be a social historian.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:55 pm:

Ritchie,

Again I'll ask you -- why are you objecting to my post, and not to Jim G's or Scratcher's? I was only echoing what they said.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:06 pm:

I find it telling that you continue to direct your objections only to me ...

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:10 pm:

Sorry, Sue - my last reply was in reference to all three - yours, JG's and Scratcher's. I did not mean to imply I was singling yours out specifically.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:13 pm:

OK -- but please don't, OK? I just came in on the tail end of this discussion, Jim G and Scratcher made much more detailed points than I did.

And nobody's discounting your great research and love of the music at all.

I too would love to see more playlists from R&B and soul stations posted. The Keener playlists on their own show how idiosyncratic the Detroit market was, the R&B stations would be even more interesting. That and I wish there was a site with soundchecks of the R&B greats up, as there is for Top 40 radio.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:15 pm:

I mean AIRchecks of the great R&B disc jockeys -- Frantic Ernie etc. from Detroit. The Electrifyin' Mojo has tapes of Ernie from later on, when he had him co-host his show once -- even that would be cool to listen to online.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:21 pm:

OK, Sue - I'll be more careful in future :o)

BTW, Tom (Pogo) sent me a great CD compilation of Detroit deejays, but there's only a very short clip of Frantic Ernie. Sounds like he was a great jock.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:47 pm:

Who else did Pogo have on the compilation? Sounds cool. The guy at reelradio.com has a lot of the Detroit Top 40 jocks, but nobody's done the R&B/soul guys.

Frantic Ernie was respected by everybody; he used to call Dave Shafer at CKLW and suggest R&B songs that he should add. Rosalie Trombley at CKLW used to call 'CHB and 'JLB to see what was hot and happening that she needed to jump on ...

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:52 pm:

Sue :o)

There's Robin Seymour (I suspect this came from the Cruisin' album, though.) Lee Alan, short clip of Frantic Ernie Live-jiving over James Brown's "I Got It I Feel Good", and - now I check the actual CD - selections from Bill "Rosko" Mercer, from NY and LA. Nice though, as we never got to hear these guys here!

By Jim G (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:54 pm:

Ritchie,

Try this on for size: I asked two British researchers (Mike Rowe/Dave Penny) to proofread part of our Manuscript (Before Motown). Can't get much more respectful than that.

But I stand by my first post, putting the music/musicians into cultural context is tricky, even trickier for those who don't live and work in the culture everyday. It's kinda like 'home pitch advantage' I think.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:58 pm:

Ritchie -
Well if you haven't yet, check out reelradio.com ...they have airchecks of Dave Shafer, Dave "Sangoo" Prince -- those two from the very early '60s -- plus Scott Regen, Lee Alan, etc. It really gives you a feel for the mainstream music mix we heard ...

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 03:56 pm:

Sue - it's been in my bookmarks for ages!

Jim - sure, though as I don't watch sport, I have to infer the meaning of your analogy! Hopefully, the more realistic amongst us accept what we can and can't understand. I think most people would agree that great music transcends national boundaries, and can be enjoyed by everyone, irrespective of location. One poster on another forum cheerfully crowed that Motown's music was so popular because it made you "feel proud to be American". From this side of the pond, I find it hard to wholeheartedly agree with that assessment. Maybe that's a cultural difference! ;o)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 07:48 pm:

Scratcher:
Thanks again for the feed back. Having relatives in Pittsburgh PA (the home of the almighty WAMO radio & Porky Chedwick) helped my sisters & me stay in the loop regarding the latest tunes, dances & fashions (hell, I first heard the Stylistics from my cousin Cookie, but that's another story...).
As for the Billy Paul compilation discussion, once again it's the gang at Columbia/Legacy Vs. the Sony Music Bean Counters. I've spoken with Leo Sacks in the past about reissuing the G&H albums including Billy Paul. So far he was able to reissue "360 Degrees Of..." & wants to do more. But he has to sword-fight the money people over that. It ain't easy...
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 11:51 pm:

I don't think that one's nationality is important - but to fully understand & research Detroit music I think it's important to visit the city. I learned soooo much in my few years there - things that I'd never have grasped if I'd lived in the UK. Obvious really.
Graham

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.151.207) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 05:28 am:

dear all thanks for putting me in the picture,
ive only got my toe wet in the states ,when i did a day trip from vancouver in canada to what i beleive was washington state,it had biggest star and stripes on poles i have ever seen!! one day maybe i will have the pleasure of seeing more of america. the only reason i mention it ,where i live southampton has a sizeable black community
and when i went to see the motown revue at the local theatre the mayflower,which holds 5000
there was only 2 black people there ,and considering ,the artiste line up was a very rare
appearance of some major motown stars ,i would have exspected more,when i spinned records in london playing reggea ,soul it was a fairly mixed audiance ,maybe i was wrong and not aware of the history of the states ,i apoligise
.
re the state of the charts is different today.

1 bmg and universal records ,cut deals with asda and woolworths etc making sure that only their records appear as new realeases thet week ensuring
chart entry

2 you only need to sell 7000 singles today to make the so called no 1 position,where as 20 years ago you had to sell minimum 70000 to get top ten

2 there are so many versions of the top charts
1 radio one top 20
2 the pepsi charts (independant radio)
3 the hmv chart
4 the asda top 40
5 the woolworth top 40
6 the virgin top 40
plus a few other versions , they all have one thing in common ,they are domminated by major record products and to top it none of them agree
with each other on pole position.

i think its one big con personnaly,you get the biggest load of shitt sometimes entering the charts and because most shops these days dont have listening posts or booths ,some teenagers buy a record as a promising new realease take it home ,put in the cd player relise what a duffer it is and dont bother taking it back ,it will still count as a sale
nuf said