By John Lester (217.40.230.26) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 02:59 am:

Lars....this info came to me in an email and I think the original source is Dave Flynn.

Solid Hit 108

...well it is on most discographies...#108...a copy has just surfaced and lo and behold it turns out to be The Magictones - Fun to be young/It's better to love, as in on Mahs (across two numbers).
Blimey! :-)


Lars..you might want to note this in your discography

By LG Nilsson (213.89.28.83) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 03:24 am:

Many thanks John!

Very interesting information. It took us over 30 years to find out! Is it possible to see a scan or some other proof of existence?

Mah's M-1037:



Lars

By John Lester (217.40.230.26) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 03:43 am:

I have asked the source.......Dave Flynn comes on here

By Flynny (213.122.137.3) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 07:33 am:

Hello strangers! :-)

Yes, #108 exists...it's on the later design as in Pat Lewis "No one to love" style. It came from someone associated with Solid Hitbound Productions but can't say too much at the moment ;-) I asked a few big name collectors about it at the Prestatyn weekender last week, but no one was aware of what it was let alone had seen a copy...a one-off at present, dare I say?! :-)

There's a scan on the Capitol Soul Club page:
http://www.capitolsoulclub.homestead.com/cscDJIrishGreg.html

By John Lester (81.132.32.155) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 08:09 am:

A big cheer for Dave (Sherlock Holmes) Flynn!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 10:17 am:

Once again this place amazes the hell out of me.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.28.83) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 10:52 am:

It is a sad fact that most label scans on the web have such a low resolution. Funny thing is if you compare the Solid Hit 108 image with the Mah's release it looks like three or four names below the "It's Better To Love" title on the Solid Hit issue. On Mah's it is only "M.Hanks"



It would be nicer to have a scan with a quality like this:



Anyway... It was a very big surprise... Thanks again John & Dave for the info.

Lars

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 02:58 am:

Thanks for the info' Flynny.
I'd love to have both ztsc numbers... and as Lar's says - a higher dpi scan would be even better.
Graham

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 10:11 pm:

Going from the ZTSC numbers of other Solid Hit 45s, it seems that this Solid Hit 108 release pre-dates the one on MAH'S.
I know that The Magic Tones' "Together We Shall Overcome" was released at the time Dr King was killed, in 1968, as it was a hit in Detroit.
Graham

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 10:52 pm:

Another point... BMI have the writers of "Fun To Be Young" as - Mike Hanks, Calvin Stephenson and Patricia Willis. But I can't find "It's Better To Love" listed on the BMI Website.
Graham

By Joe Moorehouse (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 08:22 am:

Graham, if the recording is the same as on the Mah's release, the ZTSC numbers should also be the same. I have several records from Columbia pressing plants that saw releases on more than one label, and the ZTSC number is the same on each--for instance, the Zodiac and Boo releases of Come on Back bear the same data in spite of the fact that the Boo release was pressed later. (Of course, we don't have confirmation yet that the recordings are the same, do we?)

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 10:18 pm:

Good point Joe, although those 2 labels were owned by the same person.
I've contacted Calvin Stephenson and he's told me that the writer credited as "Patricia" should be Paul. I've invited Calvin (aka Doc/Dhaakk) to come on the forum, and hopefully he will.
Cheers,
Graham

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:54 pm:

I have a copy of the M-1037 'Together, we shall overcome/The Magic Tones', but it has the three coloured label red,white and blue! Nice track, bought it around 1974 in the Hull market. I guess that is Bob or Jamerson on bass. Could be wrong.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.28.83) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 04:39 pm:

Interesting! The other Ric-Tic distributed Mah's release M-1038 I have has the three coloured design. Was the red design released before or what? Anyone here know?



Lars

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 04:16 am:

Yes Lars, that is the design!Maybe they ran out of red ink.

By LG Nilsson (212.247.9.242) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 04:23 am:

Ha ha!(:-)

Carl, is Mike Hanks the only composer on "It's Better To Love" on your Mah's B-side too?

Lars

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 05:18 am:

Lars -

Yes, M Hanks is the only composer mentioned on that title.

By Rich (162.33.235.28) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 08:47 am:

LG - those scans are much appreciated, thanks.

Eddie Anderson's name crops up from time to time, as a song-writer. Sang background in Detroit in the mid'60's I believe. Anybody got a few details on the man?

By LG Nilsson (213.89.28.83) on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 06:09 pm:

John & Dave!

Do you guys think it is possible get better scans of the A & B side of SH-108. That would be really great!

I have also found in some discographies that "Fun To Be Young" is an alternative B-side on "Together, We Shall Overcome" MAH'S 1037. Is that really true? Has anyone here seen or heard that song?

In the meantime, let's take a look at another nice Magictones release...



Lars

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.7) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:24 pm:

Hey Lars,
nice to see a copy of The Magictones again above on Wheelsville(no.114).
I have the cheaper valued copy on Wheelsville(106)but I have always liked it for the other side of 'Me and My Baby'.
Theres a Magic Tones on Ram-Brock records but assume they are different as I am sure the name is halfed.
Cheers
mel.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.85) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

I Have been informed they are the same group.
mel.

By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

Hi Lars. Together We Shall Overcome was a substantial hit in the Detroit area in 1968 and so turns up quite often. If you need a copy, let me know and I'll send you one. jmoorehous@aol.com

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.74) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 01:06 pm:

Joe,

Thanks for the offer. I already got "Together, We Shall Overcome" b/w "It's Better To Love" on MAH'S 1037 (first scan on thread). As mentioned above, what I need to know is if there are other copies with "Fun To Be Young" instead of "It's Better To Love" on the B-side. If you have "Fun..." on the B-side I am interested!

Mel,

I have also got a very early release on The Magictones.



Was "See Saw" some kind of dance craze in US? The only other similar record I have is "See-Saw" by Don Covay (not same song).

Lars

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.83) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 01:47 pm:

Great stuff Lars,
I see William Garretts name.
Really looks interesting.
Mel.

By acoolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 03:01 am:

Lar's, this is the group's second release. They recorded with Debora Heeley (sp) before this Shur-Hit 45. The song was "Don't Do Nothing I Wouldn't Do" and was on the Chrysler label, and later on Wheelsville, but this latter copy is very rare, and the label doesn't credit The Magic Tones. The group were originally from inkster, as was Willie Garret.
Graham

By David Meikle (81.103.135.156) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 03:27 pm:

Graham sends in 6 scans from this classic label.

By David Meikle (81.103.135.156) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 03:28 pm:

By Flynny (81.131.229.214) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 05:58 pm:

The info you seek:

ZTSC 126447
Fun To Be Young 2:49

ZTSC 126448
It's Better To Love (and Lose than Not to Love at All) 2:32

Both credit Mike Hanks as the solo writer/producer and Mah's & Groovesville Muisc publishing.
To save you checking, the matrix numbers are different to the Mah's releases, with FTBY being USD 1037B, and IBTL ZTSC 127299.

It's a funny old game this collecting lark! :-)

David

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.74) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

David Flynn, thanks a lot for the info!... and David Meikle & Graham, thanks for nice scans...

The Magictones story continues... Here's their 4th and last issue on Westbound...



What happened to the group after this release?

Lars

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 10:07 pm:

Thanks Flynny.
I thought Mike might have given credit to Sir William Wordsworth as I think he's the one who wrote "It's beter to have loved and lost than to have never have loved at all.
Graham

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

One of the Magic Tones had a solo release - Tyrone Barkley (sp), but I can't remember the details at the moment. I need more coffee! think he was Betty Lavette's boyfriend for a while.
Calvin Stephenson joined the Undisputed Truth at Motown, this is after their big hit - Smiling Faces.
Graham

By Ian W (194.75.128.2) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 07:54 am:

Fantastic scans guys! You can see the dollar signs jumping from the screen as you scroll up and down! Is Pat Lewis' "The Loser" on any other design than the solid blue label?

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 08:03 am:

Ian - I think I've seen it on a black label too. Maybe it was just very dirty.
Graham

By LG Nilsson (212.247.9.242) on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 08:16 am:

Ian,

The only design I have seen on Solid Hit 112 "The Loser" is the blue (dull) version. You can see it on my web site Solid Hit discography

Maybe they changed pressing plant.

Lars

By Ian W (194.75.128.2) on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 07:27 am:

Thanks Graham and Lars,

I bet they did it just to keep us interested 30-odd years later!

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 04:50 am:

Graham,

When Billie Rae Calvin and Brenda Evans left the
Undisputed Truth (did they fall or were they
pushed ?) the Magictones were drafted in en masse
to back up Joe Harris. If I remember rightly the
Truth were part way through recording the "Down To Earth" album so the album is half the "old"
Truth and half the new lineup. I'd have to check but I think Paul Willis was the only Magictone
not to join the Truth. They also seem to have done
a bit of name-changing - as far as I know Tyrone
Douglas is the same as Tyrone Barkley. The female
Magictone was Virginia McDonald.

By John Lester (81.132.43.11) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 06:17 am:

Virgina sung for HDH later...........

Excuse me but I thought Loving You Takes All My Time was 107.....I must have missed out on a few conversations here...or it's my memory

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 07:56 am:

Graham,

That Deborah Healey single is probably the same song that Connie Van Dyke recorded for Wheelsville.

I'll check the exact details later.

By stillsoulin (213.122.5.64) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 09:28 am:

acoolcat,
a tyrone barkley had a single on midsong mi-1016 "man of value" bw "some kind of wonderful" from 1979 both tracks written and produced by larry weiss, is this the one you were thinking of?
rob hurcomb

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.74) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 01:46 pm:

Hi guys,

I didn't know the connection between The Magictones and Undisputed Truth. Interesting!

... and specially for you John... Solid Hit 107



Lars

By Joe Moorehouse (152.163.189.235) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 03:54 pm:

Davie, the Debra Healy record (note correct spelling of her name, at least on the Chrysler release) is the same song as was cut by Connie Van Dyke. Personally, I like Healy's version better, but I think I'm in the minority on that one.

By kh (81.77.174.33) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 06:42 pm:

Ha - those ZTSC numbers! That places the Magic Tones immediately before Little Sonny's "The Creeper"/"Latin Soul" on Revilot 209 if anyone wants to do some dating!

By aoooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:15 pm:

Davie, as Joe says - "Don't Do Nothing..." is the same song but it sounds quite different; it must have been recorded a couple of years earlier than Connie Van Dyke's. I prefer The Magictones version too. Debora was the girlfriend of one of the group at the time.
The group changed a lot from their first recordings to the later ones on Wheelsville and MAH'S, Ram-Brock and Westbond. Tyrone Barkley and Tyrone Douglas were two differnt members of the group and were know as "Big Ty" and "Little Ty." But I can't remember who was big and who was litle. I'll have to check when I get home.
stillsoulin; Yes, that's the song I was thinking of, thanks. I've never heard it - What's it like?
Graham

By John Lester (213.123.112.26) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 02:52 am:

Lars

Thank you...........it's my memory at fault here.

I now see that I have Benny Poole on Solid Hit 107 too - I just checked! What I was thinking of was my b**tl*g of "Loving You Takes All Of My Time" which I now see has a catalogue reference of Solid Hit 105 (and not 107) - the same as "Warning" from Pat Lewis on Solid Hit 105.

Is it possible to buy on CD a clean and not a "recorded in the back of a car" version of "Loving You Takes All Of My Time"? That's a real neat tune. I guess this request might go back to one of the earliest threads on Soulful Detroit, a CD of Mike Terry's recordings - when is it coming?

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.74) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 02:15 pm:

John,

I have got "Loving You Takes All My Time"
on the Goldmine CD GSCD105 from 1997.

The Groovesville Sound Archive

01 - THE O'JAYS - I'll Never Forget You
02 - J.J. BARNES - Sweet Sherry
03 - PAT LEWIS - No One To Love
04 - STEVE MANCHA - Friday Night
05 - DARRELL BANKS - Our Love Is In The Pocket
06 - PARLIAMENTS - Don't Be Sore At Me
07 - J.J. BARNES - Please Let Me In
08 - ROSE BATISTE - Hit & Run
09 - THE PROFESSIONALS - That's Why I Love You
10 - THE HOLIDAYS - Making Up Time
11 - THE DEBONAIRES - Loving You Takes All Of My Time
12 - THE HOLIDAYS - Lost You
13 - STEVE MANCHA - Keep The Faith
14 - J.J. BARNES - Chains Of Love
15 - PAT LEWIS - Warning
16 - MELVIN DAVIS - I Must Love You
17 - SAM WARD - Stone Broke
18 - THE DEBONAIRES - Headache In My Heart
19 - STEVE MANCHA - Just Keep On Loving Me
20 - PAT LEWIS - Look At What I Almost Missed
21 - ROSE BATISTE - I Miss My Baby (That Lonely Feeling)
22 - DARRELL BANKS - Somebody Somewhere Needs You
23 - J.J. BARNES - I Think I Found A Love
24 - [INSTRUMENTAL] - I'm The One Who Loves You

I think i bought it on Tower Records, Piccadilly in London 1998. The sound is great.

Lars

By John Lester (213.123.112.26) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 03:07 pm:

Thank you Lars............not sure how I missed that one!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 03:25 pm:

John - it's also track 17 on the "Girls of Detroit" CD that I sent you :o)

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 03:02 am:

Lars - Please drop me an email.
TIA, Graham
acooolcat@yahoo.com

By LG Nilsson (213.89.30.74) on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 03:36 pm:

Graham,

Message sent!

I just got this info from Reg Bartlette... It is also included in his book "Off The Record - Motown by master number" ... I should have looked closer the first time...

... but to solve the mystery about the two MAH'S 1037 releases... here's the fact.

First release was:

MAH'S #USD-1037 THE MAGIC TONES
(A) Together, We Shall Overcome (2:42) matrix #: 123
(B) Fun To Be Young (2:36) matrix #: 124
Distributed by Seg-Way Record Corporation. Released April, 1968. No Columbia ZTSC matrixes

Second release was:

MAH'S #1037 THE MAGIC TONES
(A) Together, We Shall Overcome (2:42) ZTSC-127298-1B
(B) It's Better To Love (2:30) ZTSC-127299-1A
Distributed by Ric-Tic Records, Detroit, MI. Released June, 1968.

Lars

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Friday, March 28, 2003 - 04:57 pm:

Graham sends in this rare image of Wheelsville104.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:31 am:

Thanks David,
This is obviously a black and white photocopy of the familiar pinkish colored label. There's not many of these floating around and this one is owned by a friend in Detroit.
The flip is the same as the Chrysler 45 - I Can't Erase My Old Love's Face... something like that.

Cheers,
Graham

By Joe Moorehouse (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:43 am:

And in typical fashion, credits are quite different from one release to the next: Both the artist's first and last names are spelled differently here than on the Chrysler release; the G is replaced with an apostrophe on "Nothing" in the title; the Magictones aren't credited; publishing credits are changed from Sylvia Music to Mah's; production credits are added on the Wheelsville release; and the serial number is changed from MW-330 to MW 617. At least the writer is the same. I don't know how many times I've seen different releases of the same song with incompatible writer credits.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 12:56 pm:

Joe,

Damn ! - now we'll probably never know the correct
spelling of her name :-)

I haven't heard her version of "Don't.." but I'm
with you on Connie Van Dyke's - I don't rate it
either :-)

Minor point re Tyrone Barkley's "Man Of Value"
- the song was also recorded by Wilson Pickett.