By David Meikle (213.122.190.155) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:26 am:

Davie Gordon and myself had a long discussion in the pub one day at New Year regarding the song which changed the Motown Sound.

By that I mean when did it change from the "Can I get a witness" sound to the "I'll always love you sound"?....if you know what I mean.

What was the first record to contain that new exciting sound?

Davie gave me his opinion what is yours, please?

By LG Nilsson (212.247.9.242) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:34 am:

"Heat Wave" MARTHA & THE VANDELLAS 1963 H-D-H

Lars

By mhc (172.157.183.101) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:17 am:

I remember seeing Marvin Gaye on a local R&R dance party-type show in Detroit called "Club 1270". He did his then-new record which was "Wonderful One" and afterward, he and the host (Dave Prince?) had a discussion about how the Motown Sound was changing. Marvin said something about how they were going for less distortion in the sound. (It's funny what sticks in your mind...)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:52 am:

Mary Wells' "My Guy" gets my vote for the song that changed Motown.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:57 am:

I reckon it was 'heatwave' also, but the signs were there before that on tracks like 'do you love me' and 'come and get these memories'

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:12 am:

I always thought that Bob Crewe had a very significant influence on us in the mid '60s much like Sly did at the end of the decade.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:35 am:

Hey Bob,
You happened to mention a producer I have long admired - Bob Crewe. He was a great producer (who else could swing from the Four Seasons to Mitch Ryder with such ease!) and a firm believer in being an independent label owner (Crewe Records, Dyno-Voice, New Voice). Yet at the same time I feel that he borrowed much from the Motown/Detroit sound for his productions than any other genre (the Toys' "Lover's Concerto", Four Seasons' "Opus 17" & "Working My Way Back To You"), from the drum fills to the bass lines played on the electric bass & lower end of the piano. Overall, he was indeed a fine producer& I still listen to my Mitch Ryder/Toys/Four Seasons 45s with pleasure.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:40 am:

Opus 17 - I still love that record!

I wonder what the (unreleased..?) other 16 were...

By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:47 pm:

GEEZ KEV: YOU MUST HAVE BEEN READING *MY* MIND!!!...JUST YESTERDAY I PULLED OUT FRANKI VALLI & THE FOUR SEASONS GREATEST HITS...FORWARDED RIGHT TO "OPUS 17"!!!...FUNNY STORY...JUST LAST WEEK...ONE OF MY SALESMAN COMES UP TO ME AND SHOWS ME A COPY OF A DRIVERS LICENSE FOR A CUSTOMER WHO JUST TEST DROVE A NEW HONDA ELEMENT!!!...HE SAYS TO ME...DO YOU KNOW THIS GUY???...GUESS WHAT...IT WAS FRANKI VALLI...SO I ASKED THIS YOUNG MAN WHERE FRANKIE WAS???...HE HAD JUST LEFT OUR DEALERSHIP, AND I WAS PISSED OFF THAT THE SALESMAN DIDN'T TURN HIS CUSTOMER TO ANOTHER SALESMAN, WHICH I REQUIRE...BUT MORE SO THAT I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO MEET FRANKI...I DID MEET HIM ONCE IN LAS VEGAS BACK IN ABOUT 1979!!!...BUT I WANTED TO TELL HIM ABOUT OUR "FUNK BROTHERS" CAMPAIGN!!!...BOB CREWE WAS INDEED A GREAT PRODUCER...MY BROTHER WORKED ON SOME PROJECTS WITH HIM...INCLUDING THE INFAMOUS "DISCO TEX" FIASCO!!!...MOTOWN RECORD THAT CHANGED THE COMPANY???...I'D SAY THE SMOOTH AND REFINED PRODUCTIONS OF THE SUPREMES...LIKE..."I HEAR A SYMPHONY"...WHY???...BECUASE BERRY WANTED IT THAT WAY!!!...STU

By David Meikle (80.5.115.23) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:29 pm:

Hi folks

I'm not looking for the record which changed the company.

I'm looking for the record which was the first of it's kind, musically.

When I was a teenager I always looked for Motown records dated 65-67. This was the wrong approach however as there WERE records with the sound I liked pre-65.

hope this helps
David

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:40 pm:

David:
I understood your question. For me it was "My Guy" because I never heard french horns used in such a fashion before as you hear in the intro. Smokey was influenced by a film (the name escapes me)which used the same horn line.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:46 pm:

LgNilsson:

I have to agree with you I believe that it is Martha and the Vandellas "Heat Wave." I think that record expanded the parameters of what Motown writer/producer/arrangers could do and put the Motown sound on the map. Speaking of the importance of the marrying the singer and the song, I don't believe that song would have worked with any other Motown female vocalist. All you have to do is play the Supremes version back to back with Martha's and you will see what I mean. Martha gives one of the great pop/rock vocals of all time. It is a shame she was eventually overshadowed by the emphasis on La Ross.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:00 pm:

There's no doubt that the Crewe influence worked both ways later on but there's also no doubt that his records during the late '50s and early '60s introduced a lot of production ideas such as handclaps and footstomps that we and others built on.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:04 pm:

I'm still thinking on it David.

By stephanie (199.183.170.212) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

A GREAT PRODUCER...MY BROTHER WORKED ON SOME PROJECTS WITH HIM...INCLUDING THE INFAMOUS "DISCO TEX" FIASCO!!!...MOTOWN RECORD THAT CHANGED THE COMPANY???...I'D SAY THE SMOOTH AND REFINED PRODUCTIONS OF THE SUPREMES...LIKE..."I HEAR A SYMPHONY"...WHY???...BECUASE BERRY WANTED IT THAT WAY!!!...STU >>>>>>

Hey Stu whatever happened to Monti Rock the III
I love Disco Tex and the Sexelettes I also liked that minor hit they had with I Wanna Dance with You but that Get Dancin song was the bomb!!!! I think Kenny Nolan wrote that one didnt he?

I think the song that was radically different for Motown would have to be Reflections by Diana Ross and the Supremes. The company never did anything like that at the beginning of a record. I have to give it to HDH they were masterminds on that one.

I agree with Heatwave being the song to really pull of the creativity of producer and singer and arranger and just the Motown sound period. I love Martha and the Vandellas and everything they have ever done but I cant stand Come and Get These Memories. The only time I liked that song was when Mary Wilson did the lead on it on Supremes a Go Go. Its funny because I like everything Martha and the girls did except for that one record..I dont know why..
Steph

By Keith Herschell - London (213.122.63.224) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:30 pm:

Interesting question. The answer may have something to do with what was the first H D H collaboration. (Help someone because I�m not sure.)
On a similar theme, when did the Motown sound change from what we know as the Classic sound.
I would have thought that Norman Whitfield had a great deal to do with that, possibly Gladys Knight (Smokey & the Miracles) �I heard it through the grapevine�. Does anyone know what was Norman Whitfields first work.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.210) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:51 pm:

Second change, from classic sound:

"Cloude Nine" THE TEMPTATIONS Norman Whitfield 1968.

Lars

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.210) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:14 pm:

Keith H.

I am quite sure that the first H-D-H collaboration was the below single by Lamont Dozier... but they mixed things up! It was released in June, 1962. But this is not "The Classic Motown Sound"...



The first work by Norman Whitfield on record I know about is that he is playing tambourine on a single by the Distants from 1960... but that is not the "new" Motown sound either...

If you want to take a look at The Distants single go to my site: Seabear Studios, Secret Vault 4

Lars

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 05:58 pm:

I think (at the moment), there were a number of stages in The Motown Sound. There was the early bluesy stuff a la Mabel John, early Stevie and the Smokey type Marvelettes (You're my remedy). There was the first real Motown manifestations, courtesy of Smokey (Goin to a Go Go, Ain't That Peculiar, My Girl Has Gone, Tracks of My Tears, Don't Mess with Bill). There was Hunter Motown (Dancing In The Street, Loving You Is Sweeter Than Ever, I'll Keep Holding On, Behind a Painted Smile), there was Holland-Dozier-Holland (say no more), there was Ashford and Simpson, there was Crewe and Gaudio (Keep and Eye) and there was Norman Whitfield.

But the weird thing was that Berry was always there, too. Chris Clark's I Wanna Go Back There Again is pure Motown. So were all the things he did with the Clan and the Corporation. Frank Wilson did it too every time. So did Riser, Dean and Weatherspoon and all the teams that worked under him.

The Beatles had a track: It's only a Northern Song, after the name of their publishing company. Every one of these people (and Ron Miller and Penzabene and Cosby and Paul and all the others) was a brilliant individual songwriter. Whether because of the Funks or the producers or Berry's guiding hand, or a combination of all, a Motown song was always unmistakeably a Motown song.

I'll shut up now.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:36 pm:

What about the Miracles "Way Over There", Mary Wells "Bye Bye Baby" Marv Johnson's "Come To Me" and "Whisper", songs prior to the Marvelettes and Stevie? Do you consider Marv Johnson as a part of that?

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:52 pm:

I'll buy "Heatwave", but why? On the surface it sounds alot like "Postman" or "BEachwood 4-5789, or any of the "girl group" sounds EXCEPT "Dancin' In The Streets", but underneath, it's a whole different story. Is it the minor chords, the fact that it swings a lot, or what?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:59 pm:

My last post meant, the beginning of Hitsville/Motown as being Marv Johnson, Miracles, and Mary Wells, which means that after that point, the Marvelettes and Vandellas would have been the beginnings of a new sound.

By Yan (80.194.105.141) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:39 pm:

Bob-

...what are the specific late 50s, early 60s Bob Crewe productions you are referring to?? I know what you are talking about but I'd love to see which specific tracks you are thinking of and why. Enlighten me!

I do think there is a lot of laziness (or just plain ignorance) in writing about popular music; alot of critics will call anything Motownesque- and imagine the whole sound came out of nowhere. They do a great disservice to other music cut contempareous and previous to the Motown sound. If you listen to many girl group cuts from 62-64 (as the classic Motown sound was coming together) you can really hear how Motown borrowed from the style as it was.

Girl group material has never really been fully accepted by "serious" (bleaah!) music critics as worthy of much "serious" (bleaah!) attention; whereas Motown has- so it's maybe not surprising this is the case.

....I might be offending people here but I wonder if it's also because critics would like to focus much more on Motown's black/rnb roots; and try and pretend the significant (and "white" associated) pop influence doesn't exist. They really don't have to. Of couse nearly everyone who writes on pop/rock music is coming from a post-Beatles perspective and is almost always clueless (and casually dismissive) of the entire 1953-63 rockn'roll era. (and the pop/soul music cut from 63-67 while their beloved Stones/Beatles/Dylan stuff was coming out- myself I can't stand rock once the roll had gone!)

Sorry- I went a bit off the subject! To return to the question, I don't think "the sound" really came totally together until 64. That's the year it all clicked; and with pratically all the producers- so I think we are actually talking about the Funks and their playing, rather than any specific producer's approach.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:51 pm:

Yan - Regarding your last paragraph that's kind of what I was saying. (I'm not very artistic in my writing.)

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:06 pm:

HI STEPHANIE: WHAT HAPPENED TO SIR MONTE ROCK 111...AKA...DISCO TEX???...FOR THE LIFE OF ME...I DON'T KNOW...ALTHOUGH HE WAS A HAIRDRESSER PRIOR TO CREATING HIS PERSONA!!!...MAYBE HE'S BACK IN THE SALON...BUT I'LL ASK MY BROTHER IF HE KNOWS!!!...KENNY NOLAN WAS PROBABLY A WRITER ON THAT STUFF, IN THAT HE AND MY BRO WERE WORKING TOGETHER DURING THAT TIME...AND KENNY WAS HOOKED WITH BOB CREWE SINCE THE "FOUR SEASONS" DAYS!!!...DISCO TEX ALSO HAD A CUT CALLED "HOT LAVA" WHICH WAS PART AND PARCEL TO THAT PROJECT!!!...

By TD (199.183.170.56) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:08 pm:

Baby I need Your Loving.

I was playing Hitsville USA the single collection the other day, and every song leading up to this sounded more raw and less polished-
Baby I Need Your Loving seemed to me to be the
first real quality lush sound, not to mentioned the first 4 Top hit.
Your thoughts

TD

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:20 pm:

TD - Do you know off hand what year that song came out?

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:08 pm:

SisDetroit.....
....1964. Topped at #11, Billboard

By Vickie (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:26 pm:

CLoud 9 and What's Going On were
so different from most Motown songs, those stick out for me..

Vickie

By Sue (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:26 pm:

Yan,
I agree with you about pre-Beatles rock 'n' roll ...

Clearly the Marvelettes were cast totally in the girl group mold that was very successful at the time. You didn't listen to "Please Mr. Postman" and think "Wow the Motown sound!" I was a sprite in Philadelphia at the time, but my older brother had bought the single, played the hell out of it, and it just sounded to us like a really really cool girl group song.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 10:11 am:

The other song that is a landmark in Motown's history is 'reach out'. It sounds as if HDH Blended Classical music with the usual R&B/Pop arrangements, and really set the pattern for a more sophisticated type of record, it was the type of style that Ashford and Simpson also used heavily.and i suspect the guys in Philly were also influenced by this concept.

By SteveS (209.219.207.3) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 10:51 am:

Sue,

Good point about the Marvelettes. At the time, they sounded very much in the "girl group" mold that was so popular. On the other hand, My Guy was distinctly Motown, it didn't sound even remotely like anything else around (except maybe Canadian Sunset and that was the Funk's inside joke). Perhaps one difference was whether or not a tune could be reduced to a 3 chord version that a 60's garage band could cover. Unlike most 60's music, a lot of Motown stuff was way too complicated (Bernadette, Reach Out, My Guy, For Once in My Life, just to name a very few) for kids to mimic in a non-embarassing way (that didn't stop many from trying, per erggg). That made the music different, for better or worse.

By Nish (216.148.246.134) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 11:17 am:

It's really difficult to isolate a moment in history to say, this is when the "Motown sound" came to be. I would probably go with a year rather than a song, and 1964 is a very good year to isolate, as Yan mentioned.

Sue - you bring up a good point about "Please Mr. Postman," that might be generally applicable to most of the songs of that early Motown era. If I were a record buyer back in 58-62, I'd think most of the Motown/Tamla releases were superior-but-typical R&B songs of the day. For awhile there, the Miracles were your above average late-era doo-wop group akin to some of those young, smoothed out New York-Chicago-Detroit groups.

By Yan (80.194.105.141) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 01:16 pm:

Nish-

I think the Miracles were cutting genuinly brilliant tracks quite early on; while their labelmates at Motown/Tamla were still in a developmental stage. And I think you're right in your comparison of their material in that period to the neo/late doo-wop sound. I actually believe "Bad Girl" to be a full-fledged classic track of it's kind. (I have seen it on lists of all time classic doo-wop records; compiled by people who don't have much time for their later classically "Motown" material)

...as a pretty good example of what I was talking about earlier; I remember reading The Tymes mind-blowing "Here She Comes"; referred to as an attempt to copy the Motown style. Perhaps the writer was thinking of the second issue; and then jumping to his hasty conclusions; but "Here She Comes" was (I'm pretty sure) recorded in '63!

Some classic Motown releases, I think all recorded around the Spring/Summer of 64-

CAROLYN CRAWFORD-My Smile Is Just A Frown
MARVIN GAYE-Baby Don't You Do It
FOUR TOPS-Baby I Need Your Loving
TEMPTATIONS-Girl Why You Wanna Make Me Blue
SPINNERS-Sweet Thing
MARTHA/VANDELLAS-Dancing In The Street

By TD (199.183.160.85) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 03:05 pm:

Soulboy

"Reach Out" is the greatest single ever made. The noted Rock critic David Marsh even backs it up in his 1001 greatest singles book.

TD

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 03:48 pm:

It's a very good question, and one which I've pondered for several hours before posting. My initial thought was like Lars - Heat Wave - but then I reconsidered. That single appears to have had a major impact at Motown, but I feel it's still halfway between the "girl-group" sound and what we recognise as "classic Motown".

If you compare this to Darlene Love's "Wait Till My Bobby Gets Home" from just about the same time, there's not a world of difference, as they're both cast in a similar brassy vein. Darlene's record is a refined version of Phil Spector's Curtis Lee sound, adapted from the "party records" of Gary US Bonds. Martha's is treading a similar path.

I'm sure the process was as much 'organic' as conscious development. Thanks to Martha, I think the development of "the Motown Sound" can be charted through the example of her four singles:

Come And Get These Memories
- girl group develops into proto-Motown

Heat Wave / Quicksand
- brassy, but more intricate rhythm track, given more emphasis and prominence.

Dancing In The Street
- all elements fuse into "The Motown Sound"

I'm not trying to suggest these records were responsible for changing the label's direction - other hands were at work too of course (e.g. Smokey and BG) but these four 45s seem to illustrate the development of the "sound" over a relatively short period.

By Nish (66.119.34.39) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 03:54 pm:

Oh Yan, I wholeheartedly concur with you on the Miracles. "Bad Girl" is a doo-wop classic. "(You Can) Depend On Me" is another one of those classics. Those Miracles... they rank up there with the greatest harmony blends of all time.

You bring up those rabid lovers of 50s R&B (I am one of those) who don't have time for later Motown. I never could understand those folks because R&B soul is truly a continuum and for me, at least, to like one is to like the other. It feels odd to me to like the Larks and the Clovers without liking the Temptations and the Four Tops... it's just building on a sound, natural progression from my perspective.

Yeah, all those releases you mentioned definitely sounded different from anything else released around that time, but there's a cohesion among them that you could begin to say - AHA! It's that Motown Sound!!

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 04:43 pm:

TD,
Not even Dave Marsh's mother calls him "David" ...
he's a very casual, Dave kind of guy.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:07 pm:

Let me add a little spice to this discussion.

I remember being told a few weeks after I started at Motown in 1965 that the producers and the Quality Control department were very concerned with maintaining a signature "sound" for each artist. On the inside, there was an intentional parallel development of different styles rather than a linear progression from one style to the next. I'm too close to it to even guess what it looked like from the outside.

By Yan (80.194.105.141) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:13 pm:

Hey Bob!

- since you're here; can I re-ask my original question?? What specific late 50s/early 60s Bob Crewe productions do you think were most groundbreaking/influential on Motown and pop music in general at the time? What are your own favourites??

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:19 pm:

Richie makes some good points, but I'll still stick with "Heatwave", although the progression sounds about right.
The thing that makes "Heatwave" stand out for me is that it's a finger snappin' song, like most of the later Motown output, where "Dancing In The Street" sounds to me more like a hand clap song, as does a lot (but again, not all) of the material that pre-dates it. It's really a subjective arguement, though.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:54 pm:

How about "Tallahassee Lassie" by Freddy Cannon or "Sherry" and "Big Girls Don't Cry" by the Four Seasons? You can't get more influential than those records were!

Again remember that Berry was shooting for the very same teen-dance market that was Bob Crewe's forte.

By Yan (80.194.105.141) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 06:56 pm:

Whenever anyone even mentions Freddie Cannon, I get "Palisades Park" in my head and can't get it out. Damn it!

Yeah, those are good examples- we were thinking of the same thing.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 07:10 pm:

Could be worse, Yan. Thank heaven we're not talking about Fabian!

By Yan (80.194.105.141) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 07:31 pm:

No, I actually really do like "Palisades Park" in a cheap sort of way! (sorry!)

Yan

P.S...talking of manufactured late 50s pop; has anyone ever seen any of those publicity photos of later uptown soul god Teddy Randazzo back in the day? Slick! Not to mention him in Rock!Rock!Rock!- I can never play those Moonglows and Flamingos tracks without the piture of those swooning girls swaying back and forth, dreamy-eyed, gormless.....and the dissaproving Father slowly being won round by the Flamingos harmonies! (hand on pipe, slowly turning away from his newspaper; eyebrows raised in curiosity and cautious respect!) Priceless. (I always thought it was very telling that the only performance where they didn't cut back for a "reaction" was Chuck Berry's! If you see the film you'll understand) Oh, and Frankie Lymon is just amazing.

...sorry, I kind of derailed the thread, didn't I?? Just ignore me and go on.

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 02:18 pm:

YOU BY MARVIN,HE WAS MOVING AWAY FROM THAT BOY,GIRL STUFF LITTLE BY LITTLE GOING INTO THE LYRICS OF FORBIDDEN LOVE,DIFFERENT INDEED.

By Eli (151.197.38.124) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 09:28 pm:

I would have to say "Where did our love go for it ushered in a whole new slant on the Motown sound and led the way for many records in the H.D.H. style including I cant help myself and This old heart of mine.

The song the My Guys's piano and French horn intro was borrowed from is Canadian Sunset.
Baby I need your lovin was also a major sound shaper.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 12:28 am:

Another thing to think about is that as the artists became older, the style reflected that.

One of the reasons that I have so much respect for Berry Gordy is that he didn't see Motown as a mill picking up kids, cranking out a couple hits on each and then spitting them out in favor of the next teen heartthrob. He was seriously concerned with developing careers which is what the move to LA was really all about. I've never heard of any other manager or label with this kind of loyalty to artists.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.28.83) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 11:28 am:

... So David M,

... What records were you and Davie Gordon discussing on the pub in NY? Was it Heatwave, My Guy, Baby I Need Your Loving or some other record? I am just curious... I still vote for Heatwave.

Lars

By Yan (80.194.105.141) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 12:03 pm:

Bob-

...I respect what your saying; but the move to L.A was a mistake, and surely at least half to do with plain money/ambition and not the artists careers......?

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 01:07 pm:

You can't legitimately separate money and ambition from the artists' careers.

There's never been any market for people old enough to be their parents performing dance music for teen-agers! Our artists had to move on and BG wanted to have something to offer them beyond dance records to advance their careers. Otherwise competing managers and labels based in LA and New York would have snapped them up just as soon as their Motown contracts expired.

I certainly agree that BG took the Funk Brothers along with the Detroit studios and engineers such as myself for granted but he clearly never took his artists and songwriters for granted. That's a lot more than you can say for most labels and managers.

By David Meikle (80.5.115.23) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 05:05 pm:

Hi Lars

Davie voted for "Heatwave" without the benefit of a handy discography.

Having gone through the complete discography I would agree with everything that Ritchie said.

"Come and get these memories" from February '63 is the earliest record that gives ME the same goosebumps as the classic Motown sound.

"Heat wave" came 5 months later.

H/D/H we owe you.

Thanks to everyone for giving their equally valid views.