By STUBASS (64.12.106.53) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:05 pm:

THIS JUST IN: ROCK&ROLL MUSIC MOGUL, PHIL SPECTOR IS BEING HELD BY LOS ANGELES POLICE AT THIS HOUR, RELATING TO THE DEATH OF A LOS ANGELES WOMAN, WHICH OCCURED THIS MORNING...MONDAY, FEBRUARY 3, 2003. DETAILS ARE SKETCHY, AND STILL COMING IN!!!...MORE AS THIS STORY DEVELOPS!!!...AND I THOUGHT THAT I'D HEARD IT ALL!!!...STU(SCOOP)BASS

By Horse (159.53.238.243) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:29 pm:

Stu,

Like I said...A Regular Sherlock..!

By STUBASS (152.163.197.206) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:35 pm:

UPDATE: LOS ANGELES POLICE RECIEVED A CALL IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS THAT A WOMAN HAD BEEN SHOT TO DEATH AT THE ALHAMBRA HOME OF PHIL SPECTOR (THOSE OF YOU FAMILIAR WITH LA, MIGHT FIND IT A BIT UNUSUAL THAT A MUSIC ICON LIKE PHIL SPECTOR LIVED IN ALHAMBRA IN THE FIRST PLACE)!!!...SPECTOR WAS IMMEDIATELY TAKEN INTO CUSTODY!!!...THIS IS NOT THE FIRST INCIDENT OF SUSPECTED VIOLENCE ON THE PART OF PHIL SPECTOR!!!...DURING HIS LAST KNOWN RECORDING PROJECT...A 1980'S SESSION WITH "THE RAMONES"...IT WAS ALLEGED BY THE NOW DECEASED D.D. RAMONE, THAT SPECTOR PULLED A GUN ON HIM OVER A DISAGREEMENT!!!...I WILL NOT MAKE ANY JUDGEMENTS AT THIS EARLY HOUR OF THE INVESTIGATION...BUT IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T LOOK GOOD FOR PHIL SPECTOR!!!...STU

By STUBASS (152.163.197.206) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

HORSE: JUST THE OLD "NEWSMAN" IN ME COMING BACK OUT!!!...STU

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

Stubass.....
....The AP story didn't make any mention of who it was that got shot. Any idea or speculation?

By STUBASS (152.163.197.206) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:39 pm:

DOUG: ALL I'VE HEARD IS THAT IS WAS A CAUCAUSION WOMAN...I'M SURE MORE DETAILS WILL FILTER OUT SOON!!!...STU

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:43 pm:

Is the neighborhood in Pasadena, CA? That's
where I last heard he lived. Oh, I guess, that
wouldn't be LA, would it?

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:48 pm:

While we're waiting, speculate. Who would Phil shoot? Ronnie? Cher? Yoko? The list is endless.

By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

Randy,

Just NE of L.A. I guess you could call it a suburb of L.A.

By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:51 pm:

Stu,

Is my sense of direction off..?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:52 pm:

While this is indeed a bit of sad news, it is no surprise to this music maven. Phil Spector has been known for making trouble both professionally and personally - from taking songwriting credits when he didn't write certain songs ("You Lost That Lovin' Feeling" for example)to harassing his ex-wife Ronnie when she was trying to rebuild her career. He's gotten into fistfights at awards ceremonies and has pulled a gun on a few folks in the industry. Maybe jailtime will do this man some good - and will hopefully no longer block the induction of the Ronettes & Crystals into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.
Kevin Goins - KevGO

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:06 pm:

I've been to LA many times over the past 20+
years, but am unfamiliar with this area. He
had rented a mansion in Bel-Air for many
years. I wonder if he actually owned this
home. He's very wealthy! Is this not a
typical area for a millionaire to live in?
Just curious as to why he does live there.

By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:17 pm:

Randy,

From my personal perspective, the Pasadena or Alhambra area would not be the locale of choice. Perhaps our resident Californian Stu could elaberate further. Overall, it sounds like Phil's in some deep sh.....t right now. I guess the full stiry will come out eventually.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.210) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:18 pm:

This is the full AP story so far...

Record Producer Spector in Homicide Rap

ALHAMBRA, Calif. (AP) -- Legendary record producer Phil Spector was arrested Monday for investigation of homicide after the body of a woman was found at a home in this Los Angeles suburb, authorities said.

Spector, 62, was arrested at the home around 5 a.m., Sheriff's Sgt. Joe Efflandt said.

In his legendary career, Spector produced such music greats as Tina Turner and the Ramones.



Inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1989, Spector produced records for the Beatles, the Righteous Brothers and the Crystals. He created the "Wall of Sound" effect that involved overdubbing scores of musicians to create a massive roar, which changed the way pop records were produced.

Among his session players, known as the "Wrecking Crew," were guitarist Glen Campbell, pianist Leon Russell, drummer Hal Blaine and the late Sonny Bono, who learned the producer's trade under Spector. Spector produced a string of '60s hits, including the Crystals' "Da Doo Ron Ron" and "Then He Kissed Me," the Ronettes' "Be My Baby" and "Walking in the Rain," and Darlene Love's "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)" and "(Today I Met) the Boy I'm Gonna Marry."
Spector married Ronnie Bennett, a member of the Ronettes. They divorced in 1974. He has five children.

Spector's father, Benjamin, committed suicide in 1949. Spector later visited the grave and used the inscription "To Know Him Was to Love Him" as the basis for a hit song.
Spector's last major album was "End of the Century," a 1980 collaboration with the Ramones. During the session, the late bassist Dee Dee Ramone said Spector pulled a gun on the band.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:41 pm:

The Ramones are "music greats"???

By The judge (213.105.242.198) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:43 pm:

How the mighty have fallen!!

By STUBASS (152.163.204.176) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:48 pm:

OK HORSE AND RANDY: A LITTLE GEOGRAPHIC UPDATE!!!...ALHAMBRA IS DUE EAST OF DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES...YES, IN THE SAN GABRIEL VALLEY, AS IS PASADENA, WHICH IS TO THE NORTH AND A BIT EAST OF ALHAMBRA!!!...THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THE ALHAMBRA-MONTEREY PARK AREA, IS THAT IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY ASIAN...AND NOT THE TYPE OF COMMUNITY THAT YOU WOULD EXPECT TO FIND A PHIL SPECTOR LIVING IN!!!...THE LATEST DETAILS SHOW THAT SPECTOR DID IN FACT OWN THE HOUSE...NEIGHBORS RECALL SEVERAL PARTIES AT THE RESIDENCE...BUT IT'S UNCLEAR AS TO WHETHER HE LIVED AT THE RESIDENCE FULL TIME!!!...MORE LATER...STU

By thecount (65.60.201.174) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:49 pm:

CNN news has been covering this event all day.
This is just too sad,to many TRAGEDIES happening,
what the F__KS with this world???????????????
I'am outta here."COUNT"

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.210) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:58 pm:

Just released extended story:

Record Producer Spector in Homicide Rap


By ERICA WERNER
Associated Press Writer

ALHAMBRA, Calif. (AP) -- Phil Spector, the legendary record producer whose work changed the sound of pop music in the 1960s, was arrested Monday for investigation of homicide after the body of a woman was found at a mansion in suburban Los Angeles, authorities said.

Spector, 62, was arrested at the home around 5 a.m., sheriff's Sgt. Joe Efflandt said. He was taken to the Alhambra Police Department.
Records indicate he owned the home where he was arrested, but authorities did not immediately release details about the victim. Several witnesses were being questioned.
Spector is famous for creating the "Wall of Sound" effect that involved overdubbing scores of musicians to create a full, dramatic sound. The technique combined a variety of instruments, vocals and sound effects and changed the way pop records were produced, while bringing fame to singing groups like the Ronettes and the Crystals.

In his storied career, Spector produced records for Elvis Presley, Ike and Tina Turner, the Righteous Brothers and Darlene Love. He produced the last Beatles album, "Let It Be," in 1970. He worked with John Lennon on "Imagine" and helped Yoko Ono produce Lennon's work after he was killed in 1980. Spector became reclusive and known for an eccentric lifestyle. His last major album was "End of the Century," a 1980 collaboration with the Ramones. During the session, the late bassist Dee Dee Ramone said Spector pulled a gun on the band.

The producer was alleged to have demonstrated near-psychotic and abusive behavior, according to a 1995 biography by Rolling Stone magazine.
"It had to stop," Spector said of his behavior in a 1977 Los Angeles Times interview. "Being the rich millionaire in the mansion and then dressing up as Batman. I have to admit I did enjoy it to a certain extent. But I began to realize it was very unhealthy."
Spector's second wife was Ronnie Bennett, lead singer of the girl group the Ronettes. They divorced in 1974. He has five children from his marriages.
Spector was a 17-year-old student at Fairfax High School in Los Angeles when he wrote and produced his first No. 1 hit for the Teddy Bears, a 1958 ballad called "To Know Him Is to Love Him." Its title was taken from the inscription on the gravestone of his father, Benjamin, who committed suicide in 1949 when Spector was 9.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:04 pm:

Produced records for... ELVIS (?)
Was I asleep when that happened?

By Aljaydu (68.18.99.172) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:31 pm:

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=entertainment&cat=phil_spector

Here's multiple stories...

By Horse (159.53.238.243) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:40 pm:

Count,


"BALL OF CONFUSION"

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:57 pm:

Ritchie,
The Elvis thing is probably just poor fact checking. I bet someone was confused by the story about how Spector named his early "To Know Him is to Love Him" group the Teddy Bears after the hit Elvis song "(Let Me Be Your) Teddy Bear".

As for the Ramones. We can only assume that musical greatness is in the ear of the beholder.

Regards,
Ken

By Fury13 (12.2.196.17) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:30 pm:

The Ramones were probably the best -- and one of the first -- in their genre.

I doubt that the Ramones are pleasing to the ears of a professional musician, but to fans, they exuded raw energy and spontaneous fun, two ingredients that were in short supply on the music scene in the late '70s and early '80s.

As for the Spector case, I guess I'm not that surprised. Too bad though, considering his place in pop music history.

By LG Nilsson (213.89.29.210) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:32 pm:

If you want to follow the story... it's updated all the time...

Spector news

Lars

By Eli (151.197.41.191) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

Phil was the reason that I got into the game as I wanted to be a "producer" in the manner of Phil S.

By stephanie (207.94.146.229) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 08:48 pm:

I have to tell you this does not shock me. After I read Ronnie Spectors book and Darlene Love's book and saw what many people have said about him it was only a matter of time before he cracked up.
Its a shame I love the Wall of Sound and he was a great producer....well we have to see what happens.
I will admit I am a Spector collector.
Steph

By Bubbles (209.240.198.62) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 08:59 pm:

A few years ago I saw a documentary on Phil Spector. Ronnie said he treated her horribly and was cheated out of royalties because he had better lawyers.

I read on the AP that he's attained the services of Robert Shapiro of O.J. Simpsom fame--and that he's been his attorney for quite a long time? Not sure, what a weekend?

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 09:04 pm:

HEY BUBBLES: I THINK THAT JOHNNIE COCHRANE WOULD BE A BETTER CHOICE!!!..."IF HE CAN PRODUCE A HIT...YOU MUST ACQUIT"!!!...STU

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 09:18 pm:

HaHaHaHa, StuBass - You ain't right. (LOL)

By Vonnie (152.163.197.59) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 09:28 pm:

From what I have heard he had become more and more reclusive. This is usually the sign of someone who is going over the edge. Ronnie also said that Phil isolated her when they were married. I feel sorry for the young woman that was killed and my heart goes out to her loved ones, I heard she was around twenty year old.

Vonnie

By Nish (216.148.244.38) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:10 pm:

Stu, you are hilarious!!!!! Great dig!

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:47 pm:

ATTENTION ALL: PHIL SPECTOR HAS BEEN RELEASED ON A 1-MILLION DOLLAR BOND (KINDA SHOW WHAT MONEY CAN DO FOR YOU)!!!...ATTORNEY ROBERT SHAPIRO IS WITHOLDING COMMENT UNTIL HE GETS THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WITH HIS CLIENT ( I DOUBT WE'LL GET MUCH MORE THAN "SPIN" EVEN AFTER HE DOES SPEAK WITH THE ACCUSED)!!!...THE WOMAN HAS STILL NOT BEEN IDENTIFIED AT THIS HOUR, PENDING NOTIFICATION OF RELATIVES!!!...SPECTOR APPARENTLY WAS SEEN DRIVING TO AND COMING FROM THE 1.1 MILLION DOLLAR HOME IN A WHITE ROLLS ROYCE IN RECENT DAYS, ALTHOUGH IT'S STILL NOT KNOWN IF IT WAS HIS PRIMARY RESIDENCE!!!...POLICE FOUND THE SUSPECTED MURDER WEAPON AT THE SCENE, AND THE WOMAN WAS FOUND NEAR THE FRONT ENTRANCE IN THE ALHAMBRA RESIDENCE!!!...STU

By Jay (167.167.44.218) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:27 am:

Watch this one!

It will be her fault that she took a couple of bullets!
Shapiro and another all-star legal team will make sure that justice is served.

The news media is licking their chops.
Here we go again!

By RD (63.188.32.69) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 04:36 am:

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206~22097~1156433,00.html

By RD (63.188.32.69) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 05:18 am:

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,10699,00.html

The Ronnettes really got screwed by Phil Spector.

By Flytoo (152.163.195.176) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 07:41 am:

This is probably a stupid question but does anybody know if there is any connection between Phil and Spector bass guitars? Just wondering.

By TonyRussi (68.18.226.42) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 09:03 am:

I always really admired Phil Spector,he sure knew good singers,Darlene Love, Ronnie Bennett,the original Crystals.I knew he was off the wall,but killing somone is hard to believe...I hope it was an accident.

By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 10:14 am:

Flytoo,

Are you talking about the Schecter brand bass? Any bass players might want to elaberate further.

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:43 am:

THAT'S TOO BAD,WHAT STUPID THING IS A GONNA HAPPEN NEXT?TO ALL YOU CELEBS OUTTHERE{GET A HOBBY]FIND SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE NOT DESTRUCTIVE TO DO.

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:31 pm:

Flytoo,
I don't think there is a connection for Spector Bass guitars.
-Steve

By STUBASS (205.188.198.184) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:56 pm:

HORSE: CAN'T GIVE YOU MUCH ON THE SPECTOR BASS!!!...MY MOTTO..."RETURN TO SENDER...IF IT DON'T SAY FENDER"!!!..."JAZZ BASS"...MY WEAPON OF CHOICE!!!...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.198.184) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:58 pm:

SORRY HORSE:MAKE THAT LAST POST TO FLYTOO & STEVE!!!...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.198.184) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:00 pm:

SORRY AGAIN HORSE: U-2!!!...STU

By Eli (151.197.5.74) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:17 pm:

No Connection there at all, just a brand name.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:23 pm:

Maybe they're designed by Maud Spector, when she's not busy casting Hollywood movies...

By RD (63.188.32.236) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 08:04 am:

According to the late John Lennon, Phil Spector once put a gun to Stevie Wonder's head, as revealed in an article in todays' Pasadena newspaper.

http://newsdirectory.com/go/?f=&r=ca&u=www.pasadenastarnews.com

By Tony Russi (68.18.227.123) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 08:46 am:

From what I remember reading of the incident, it was that Wonders time had long been up and Phil was the next client & he finally had enough & he opened the studio door and fired a shot into the ceiling.Thats not acceptable behavior but not the same as putting a gun to someones' head.

By Horse (159.53.238.243) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:50 am:

Tony,

Not to create an issue here or debate about 2nd amendment rights, but firing a shot in that capacity is just as irresponsible and ignorant as placing the gun to an individuals head. I read Phil wqs known to wear a gun strapped to his hip. What the hell is up with that. It's just another statement of ignorance on the part of a STAR who simply doesn't know how to act. I give props to any artist who has had the opportunity to share his/her gift with others, but if he is found guilty and ends up in the joint he may just find that there are some individuals that didn't quite Lose That Lovin' Feelin'.....!

By TonyRussi (68.18.227.123) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:57 am:

Hey Horse, no defense here for Spector.IF he is guilty he has to face the muisic. No special treatment for "stars".

By Horse (159.53.238.243) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:05 am:

Agreed Sir..!

Please don't take my statement as a lash at you personally. The audacity of some of these "successful" (for lack of a better term) individuals in the biz just never ceases to amaze me. Obviously, we don't have the full story regarding the situation and he is innocent until proven guilty but what a shame overall.

Peace

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:16 am:

HMMMMMM!! Re: Stevie Wonder.. Spector's�behaviour is strangely reminiscent to my own experiences at Tera Shirma with one John Merlino. Tony is absolutely correct. This is totally unacceptable behaviour from anyone claiming to be civilzed.

By Scratcher (65.132.79.169) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:33 am:

Horse, I'm not defending Phil Spector. (How can I defend a man who paid the Ronettes a one time advance of $14,000.00 and nothing else while making millions off their recordings?)

But Spector is a small thin famous man. Men like this are picked on, particularly as kids and adults too, especially when money is involved. If anybody needs to pack a piece it's Phil Spector who long ago made it known that he wasn't taking any more punches or beatings.

All men aren't created physically equal so man invented equalizers. I'm not defending Spector's past or the allege murder just his right as an American citizen to carry a gun on his hip, strapped to his ankle, in his waist, or a shoulder holster for protection.

The Constitution of America grants its citizens the right to bear arms; a right that many States and locales have unconstitutionally taken away.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:34 am:

I have known Ronnie Spector many years. She did
not really come across well on Good Morning
America yesterday, but she KNOWS this and is
not happy with the event (she thought Diane
Sawyer was to interview her) and she was kind of
thrown off. It is my recollection that Phil's
reclusive behavior resulted with the Charles
Manson murders in the late '60s--Terry Melcher
(Doris Day's son & Epic Records exec.) was said
to be a target and Phil was totally freaked out--
electric fences went up, guard dogs brought in,
and GUNS!!! Since that time I have heard of
a few events involving Phil & guns. As we all
know and as we were all told as kids--playing
with guns can get someone hurt. Several shots
were fired. It has not yet been reported how
many hit her. I'd say if more than one bullet
hit this woman than he intentionally meant to
shoot her. I hope not. None of his former
artists that I've spoken to remember him or
describe him as a mean person--more like a
"spoiled brat" that has to have his way. I don't
remember ever actually meeting Phil, but for
years he sent my brother and I Christmas cards
in the '60s & '70s.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:36 am:

Over here, only criminals routinely carry guns.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:14 am:

Folks:
After reading reports about this matter with Phil, I made a couple of disturbing observations.

First of all, divorce lawyer Marvin Mitchelson saying that PS wouldn't intentionally hurt anyone, especially a woman. Gee whiz, I wonder how Ronnie Spector would react to that statement with the mental & emotional torture/harassment Spector put her through.

Second of all, the sad fact that no one in this industry has stood up to his bullying ways which would lead to such violent behavior. If I was Johann Vigoda (Stevie Wonder's attorney) or Berry Gordy I would have had Spector arrested and jailed for shooting his gun in the studio. To me, anyone who pulls a weapon has an intention to use it even if they don't. Spector should be no different.

Finally, something that Billboard magazine's Jim Bessman said that I take issue with. He said that when a Phil Spector record is played the listener thinks of the production foremost. I disagree - when I hear a Ronettes or Righteous Brothers or Ike & Tina ("River Deep - Mountain High") I think of the singer/artist first, then the wall of sound.

Like I said before, maybe it's time that Ahmet Ertegun and those who sit on the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame board will do the right thing by the Ronettes and the Crystals and see to it that they make the next round of inductions.

Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Horse (159.53.238.243) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:24 am:

Scratcher,

I have been down this road with you in a previous thread, where as you respond wihtout completely reading my entry. If you re-read my entry, you will find that I stated I did not want to create an issue or debate regarding the 2nd amendment right. I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment right and exercise that right to the fullest. I am a responsible registered firearm owner posessing a Concel Carry Weapon permit and exercise it regularly. I am well educated and highly trained regarding personal protection and firearms. Hence my statement regarding the irresponsible actions on Mr. Spectors' part involving a firearm. I've spent numerous hours and money in order to achieve an extremely high level of training/responsibility so as to exercise my 2nd amendment right. Mr. Spector's actions only contribute to the hinderance of my rights. I'm not going to debate the issue with you, but simply make my statement. This forum'subject matter relates to music and I feel the debate the 2nd amendment right would be better debated elsewhere.

Peace
Horse

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:29 am:

"River Deep - Mountain High" was a monster. Spector and Tina Delivered with enormous talent, and left poor Ike in the wind.

By Promises Kept (12.227.139.195) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:35 am:

But why do I like The Supremes & 4 Tops version so much better? I know everybody thinks of the former as "a classic", but that production on Ike and Tina really sounds quite dreadful! I like my eggs sunny-side up, people! LOL

By Scratcher (65.132.79.169) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:47 am:

Who's debating, Horse. I simply stated my opin on the subject. I was merely pontificating on your statement about Spector carrying a gun, something many Americans feel they have a right to do by the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution.

I agreed with your post to Tony, firing a gun in a ceiling or holding one to someone's head are both irresponsible acts. My point: it's not the fact that Spector carried a gun, that's his right, but the irresponsible way he abused that right.

And that posting was not just for you but for people of other countries whose governments don't grant them the right to bear arms and may think it's bizarre that an American citizen would carry one.

Many business and famous people either carry guns or travel with entourages, ala Allan Iverson with bodyguards who do.

I don't get offended when people comment on my posts--that's why I post in the first place; the object is to arrive at the truth. I had completely forgotten about any "run in" we had on another thread. Maybe you shouuld too as it has nothing to do with this thread.

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:50 am:

Kev....
....I don't completely disagree with Jim Bessman's comments. I'm working off of memory here (obviously a faulty exercise on my part), but although the Bros. and Tina were destinctive in sound, most (not all) of the girl groups to me in the Spector era were almost interchangable in the same way as the Beach Boys/Jan and Dean/Rip Chords/Hondels were. Part of this may have been the fault of those people who have placed Phil's production tecniques above that of the talent--you don't see Crystals collections, you see Phil Spector collections--but Spector's "style" was possibly the most individually identifiable of the pop music production out there in his era.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:51 am:

Prom

That may possibly be down to the fact that the Spector original bombed in the US, whereas it made number three in the UK. Over here, it's a well-loved hit, and fondly remembered. Courting controversy, I have to say, I personally never cared much for the Supremes/Tops version - as I loved the original so much. I still skip past it on CD - sorry!

BTW, I read that Ike wasn't on the original - legend has it that Spector banned him from the sessions - not enough room at Gold Star for two mega egos.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 11:56 am:

Here in Detroit, Tina's version of "River Deep" is highly respected and loved. An extremely powerful recording. Everytime I hear it I get chills.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:10 pm:

Ritchie:
You're on the right path regarding Ike not being there for the "River Deep Mountain High" session. He & Ike had an agreement - Phil would produce a single without Ike's involvement and the record would be released under the Ike & Tina name. Spector also allegedly paid Ike a bit of cash for Tina's "services".

Sis:
I get chills too when I hear "River Deep" by Ike & Tina.

Douglasm:
I disagree about the "interchange-ablily" of Spector's artists. The Crystals sounded no way like Darlene Love who sounded no way like the Ronettes. These groups had a distict sound vocally and each one warranted their own CD collection of their own (released through ABKCO).

Promises:
I do enjoy the Supremes/Four Tops version but to me the original is still the greatest.

Peace,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:11 pm:

Scratcher,

I forgot about the last thread and don't consider it "a run in" but simply a road we once traveled. You are 100% correct regarding other countries and the fact that your just stating your opinion (which your are in titled to even with out exercising your 2nd amendment right. However, I can't help notice that you seem to prefer the opposing side to the shall I say "mob rule" side of issues. Is it possible you feel it would enhance the intensity of a heated conversation? If so that's cool..! But might I suggest not trying to read between my words as I write it pretty straight ahead. No anomosity, no disrespect, no intentional words of harm toward anybody here. Just chillin' and being cool. Peace Out

Horse

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:13 pm:

I've heard this statement before that "River Deep" bombed in America and was only a hit in Britain. Maybe it wasn't the ultimate, monster hit Phil wanted but it was pretty darn big. I recall endless playing of it when it came out, on Detroit radio. Big, big hit.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:24 pm:

I agree with KevGo 100% on the vocals of the
Crystals, Darlene Love, and the Ronettes.
They ALL deserve individual recognition for
their talents and it was NOT Phil who made
them good singers--they came to him with
that. La La, Barbara (Alston), Ronnie, and
Darlene sound NOTHING alike to me.

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:29 pm:

Ok, ok, you win. But would you conceed the two points about the presentation of Spector's production in the "modern" era, and his identifiable style?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:55 pm:

Doug:
Phil was indeed a fine producer and innovator in the studio. The individual singing talent of the Ronettes, Darlene Love & the Crystals was there long before he came across it (check out the Ronettes CD "The Colpix Years" for example - proof that Ronnie, Nedra & Estelle had the goods prior to that fateful phone call Ronnie made to Phil Spector in 1962...).
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:07 pm:

Sue

I was referring to the fact that 'River Deep' failed to enter the US Top Forty, while it made #3 in the UK.

By Promises Kept (12.227.139.195) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:20 pm:

I thought it quite strange that the "Mag 7"'s version charted in the US top 40 after so much respect for the original. I've wondered if PS had a hand in any of Motown's promotion on this single?

By TonyRussi (68.18.227.123) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:34 pm:

I loved "River Deep" but I loved both Ike & Tina and Phil Spector.Many D J's across the country did not like Phil and most "pop" stations considered Ike & Tina "too Black" or thats what I was told by Program Directors down here.Hindsight is always 20/20 but I do think Phil buried the lead a little bit and it could have had a little "cleaner" sound to it.At least Ike & Tina got their money from Phil.I understand he told those young Crystals(who were 15 & 16) that artists don't make money from the records only live appearances!

By cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:37 pm:

I have to agree with KevGo that I liked the Ashford & Simpson production of River Deep Mountain High that the Supremes (led by Jean Terrell) and the Four Tops recorded better than the Tina Turner/Phil Spector version. I know that the critics consider the latter one of the great records of all time but when I went back and listened to both, the Supremes/Four Tops version is more accessible. Now don't get me wrong, I love Tina Turner but to me she sounds better when there is not so much going on in the background and that incredible voice is the star. When I listen to the Phil Spector version it sounds as though Tina has been told how to sing every phrase sort of "controlled." Her live versions have always sounded better than the recording. Of course, this is just my opinion.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:48 pm:

Ritchie,
Yes but you also said "River Deep" "bombed" in the U.S., which is what I disagree with. I don't know if the stations were playing it after its single run, as an album cut or what, but they were playing it.

I'll check the Keener charts and see how it did there.

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:51 pm:

Sue...
......I remember hearing that the failure of "River Deep" in the US market discouraged Spector enough that he widthdrew from producing for a time. True?

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 01:59 pm:

Yes, the lack of success of River Deep sent
Phil into retirement. Sue is correct that
the record did NOT totally bomb in the U.S.
I think it stuggled to about #88 on the
Billboard Hot 100.

By TonyRussi (68.18.227.123) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 02:06 pm:

Sue, "River Deep" only made it to #88 on the Billboard Hot 100.Hooray for Detroit!It only got a couple of spins on the "soul stations" down here.Yea, Phil shut Phillies down shortly after.The last Ronettes recording he abandoned production and the issued "I Can Hear Music" was produced by Jeff Barry and I'm pretty sure that was the last Phillies Records single issued.As we know he reappeared on A& M Records in late '68 & had a hit with "Black Pearl" by the Checkmates LTD.It was after the A& M period that he got involved with Allen Klein & the Beatles.

By cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 02:07 pm:

According to every story I have read about the collaboration, the Tina Turner/Phil Spector River Deep Mountain High was considered a bomb in the US but a hit in England & Europe. The lack of its success broke Phil Spectors heart and was part of the reason for his retirement. Maybe the lack of success was fortuitous because when Tina was going solo, the success of the song in Germany and England gave her the basis to jump start her "new" career in Europe and eventually to the United States.

By Scratcher (65.132.77.128) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 02:12 pm:

Horse, I actually thought you were from a country with strict gun laws and wasn't aware of America's 2nd Amendment like I'm not aware of the laws of other countries. My eyes gloss over posters personal info so I don't have a clue as to who you are or where you come from.

I was simply trying to say that it's not guns but people misuse of guns that's the problem. Like Kevgo stated, if somebody had stepped up and told authorties of Spector's irrational gun actions his right to own and carry a gun would have ended years ago; but, no one did.

Tony, as for the Stevie Wonder incident, it's also been written that Spector was upset because he wanted to use Wonder's engineer. As in most cases like this--who really knows.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 02:38 pm:

cleoharvey,
I see a lot of things picked up in print over the years from one initial mistake, so I'm always skeptical.

Tony--Yeah, hurray for Detroit.

It's overkill to say the song bombed. Wasn't the success Phil hoped for (unreasonably on his part, given its length, for pop radio), yep.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

Sorry, Sue. Misuse of terminology - by "bombed" I simply meant "failed to achieve the expected high placement on the Pop chart" Anyway, I've no desire to argue about something we both agree on!

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 03:02 pm:

OK GUYS: HERE COMES THE "SPIN"!!!...SPECTOR FRIENDS AND DEFENDERS...LIKE ATTORNEY MARVIN MITCHELSON...NOW CONTENDING THAT POOR PHIL "WOULDN'T HURT A FLY", AND "RESPECTS WOMEN TOO MUCH TO EVER HURT ONE"!!!...SPECTOR, BY ALL REPORTS, REFUSED TO TALK TO POLICE AFTER THEY WERE CALLED TO HIS HOUSE BY HIS DRIVER, WHO HEARD AT LEAST ONE GUNSHOT COMING FROM THE RESIDENCE!!!...SPECTOR, REPORTEDLY MET THE VICTIM EARLIER THAT EVENING AT THE "HOUSE OF BLUES" WHERE SHE WORKED AS A GREETER, WHILE SHE LOOKED FOR SOME TELEVISION WORK AFTER A CAREER IN "B" MOVIES!!!...MORE TO COME...JUST CANT WAIT!!!...STU

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 03:06 pm:

Folks:
As my boss who was at one time the editor for Cashbox magazine once said, "If it hits the chart, it's a hit - period." Regardless of where the original "River Deep.." charted, the fact that it charted means it was a hit somewhere in the USA. It may have been a local smash in Detroit and in Florida but the Russis and Cleo may have a point regarding the length of the song (three minutes and forty seconds was murder back then, forget that Bob Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone" was six minutes flat & was a #2 hit). According to an interview with record executive Tommy LiPuma (who was at A&M at the time), "River Deep.." may not have been a bigger hit because radio stations - especially the ones controlled by Bill Drake (who almost NEVER played a record over 2 minutes forty-five seconds).

The only person who may have felt the record was a failure is the man who created it to begin with.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Horse (159.53.238.243) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 03:30 pm:

Scratcher,

No Problem, We're Cool. I am a hot blooded Holstered American Boy living in the Motorcity.

By TonyRussi (68.18.227.123) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 03:30 pm:

I heard that Spector gave Ike Turner $10,000. and that the single recording of "River Deep" cost him $15,000. to make, which most LPs in '66 didn't cost that much to make.Phil Spector did not believe in record royalties for his artist much less advances which is why he lost out on signing The RollingStones (for America), the Rascals and Buffalo Springfield.So, for him to pay Ike Turner was a Big Deal.Ofcourse like Sue said previously that mistakes get written and then repeated.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 03:47 pm:

Yeah, I thought that was understood by most, that if something charts, it's nothing to sniff at. Certainly not a bomb.

I'm also amazed at the "never hurt a fly" stuff -- one from a guy I've long known and liked. I don't think his treatment of the Ronettes could be construed as fair in anybody's universe. Imagine hearing your voice on "Be My Baby" at the beginning of "Dirty Dancing" and knowing you wouldn't get a dime for it, that every bit of money would go to Spector.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:07 pm:

Ok, Sue - maybe it's a culture clash... As we only had a Top Thirty in the UK in the sixties, a number 88 placing would have definitely been considered a devastating flop here!

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:14 pm:

WHAT CONSTITUTES A HIT!!!...PRETTY GOOD TOPIC!!!...OBVIOUSLY, MILLION SELLING SINGLES OR 500,000 SELLING LP'S ARE CONSIDERED "GOLD"!!!...IT'S KINDA LIKE THE PGA GOLF TOUR!!!...THE TOP 125 GOLFERS EACH YEAR ON TOUR AUTOMATICALLY QUALIFY FOR THE TOUR THE NEXT YEAR...AND PUTS THEIR ON COURSE EARNINGS WELL OVER HALF A MILLION DOLLARS...BUT THE NUMBER 95 GOLFER ON TOUR IS HARDLY CONSIDERED A "HIT"!!!...MY TAKE...TOP 10 IS A TRUE HIT!!!TOP 25 IS A HIT!!!...ANYTHING LOWER THAN THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED A SUCCESSFUL PROJECT...BUT NUMBER 65 WITH NO BULLET IS NO HIT IN MY BOOK!!!...STU

By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 06:08 pm:

The woman killed was so beautiful, it will be interesting to see what unfolds in the coming days..

Vickie

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 06:45 pm:

VICKIE: THE NEXT THING THAT UNFOLDS WILL BE PHIL SPECTORS WALLET...TO PAY OFF SHAPIRO!!!...

By mhc (172.170.100.41) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:05 pm:

"River Deep Mountain High" was a spectacular flop in the US, and a humiliation for Phil Spector. He designed it to be his next "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling", and it was all but completely spurned by radio.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:20 pm:

Perhaps "River Deep" had too much orchestra sounds for the time period.

By Sue (64.12.106.51) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:35 pm:

I checked, and "River Deep Mountain High" was at No. 20 on the WKNR Music Guide on Jan. 23, 1969 ...by DEEP PURPLE. (How did I suppress the memory of that cover version??)

I always loved Ike and Tina's "River Deep" when I heard it on the radio, even if it didn't do as well as it seems it should have. Its reputation has grown over the years I guess and it gets more airplay today on radio than it did back in the day ...

Or maybe if old Phil had done an edit for radio it would have been on the radio more.

By stephanie (199.183.161.157) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:38 pm:

I have to admit I have both versions of River Deep and the Supremes and The Four Tops version is more radio friendly. I think Spector and Tina did a great job but its too bombastic and too many violins and frankly I think it was ahead of its time thats the problem. Its not a bad record I dont think radio was ready for that kind of thing then.
Steph

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:43 pm:

I loved violins, give me lots of them.

But Stephanie, that is probably the reason it did'nt do so well in the charts in the States. Think about that time period.

By Sue (64.12.106.51) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 09:46 pm:

Who remembers the Deep Purple version? It sounds like something that existed in an alternative world I don't yet know about ...I must have been asleep that week.

By Gary Rosen (12.234.25.217) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:35 am:

A few random observations about Spector:

- He was the first guy to put big orchestration on rock/R&B and make it work.

- He was a big influence on the Motown producers. But ultimately they surpassed him, in part because they let the artists' personalities come out more.

- He might get away with this. There were no witnesses and he'll claim "self-defense" or "fighting for the gun", something like that.

- If you've had a string of top 10s and number ones for the better part of a decade ("Lovin' Feelin" was only a year before RDMH), #88 ain't a hit.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:26 am:

Promises Kept - I just heard a version of "River Deep" by Ike & Tina. This is probably the one you were referring, where Ike beats on his guitar and making the song into a honky tonk song. Am I correct? It is on the Ike & Tina Ultimate UK cd.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:40 am:

Sis - that's the seventies recut, which usually appears on compilations of their United Artists cuts along with Nutbush, and the other relics of that era. The original was the property of A&M in the 70s (maybe still is for all I know) which means EMI/UA had no access to it - hence the use of the recut on most EMI-sourced collections. Some people actually prefer it to the "overblown" original. There's also a Live version that EMI trot out from time to time, just to complicate the issue!

By John Lester (217.40.206.27) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:49 am:

It seems that as America didn't give "River Deep Mountain High Enough" the hit that he felt it deserved, Phil Spector was upset. America's loss was thus the UK's gain - we got the unreleased masters albums which America never got. A collection of classics if ever there was one.

I bought "River" at the time and helped put it in the shops - I seem to remember it clearly being around when the England football team won the World Cup in 1966. Those little transistor radios were on all the time and everyone had one as people waited for newsflashes about how England had got on. However, when music got to being played, "River" was there. I felt that that was one of the reasons that the song became a huge hit - it was hitting during a period of mass exposure.

I remember also buying a non US Crystals 45 "I Wonder" backed with "Little Boy" - now a much sought after 45 by you guys in the States - another classic.

By john dixon (63.101.17.207) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:10 am:

Sue, the "River Deep.." cover you mentioned was Deep Purple Mach 1 with Rod Evans and Nic Semper, the same version of the group that had a huge hit with Joe South's "Hush". Not to be confused with Deep Purple Mach 2, the Ian Gillan fronted version that cut "Smoke On The Water" a few years later.

And for whatever reason, maybe being from the rural South, I never, ever heard Ike & Tina's version on the radio growing up.

By TonyRussi (68.18.227.123) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:32 am:

I think a lot of the more powerful D J's turned against Phil Spector when he started saying stuff at a radio convention that he didn't need to buy chart positions and he was being very arrogant."Little Boy"was the Crystals follow up to "Then He Kissed Me" and got very little air play struggled to #92 one more release by them "All Grown Up"#98 then they were finished recording wise.They were a great group as anyone who saw them in person at the time will say.The only money they got from Spector was $5,000. and thats only after all 5 marched up to his office and demanded it or they wouldn't record for him again(this was after their first 2 records)they never got another dime from him just their name after taking him to court.This is what Dee Dee Kennibrew, Barbara Alston and Mary Thomas told me in the 70's.

By Sue (64.12.103.23) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:40 am:

John,
Yeah somebody reminded me about "Hush" period Deep Purple, and I well remember that song, I just don't recall them doing "River Deep" at all.

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:04 am:

Hello everyone,

I saw LaLa on a recorded interview on Fox this morning & she said she is taking Phil Spector to court for back payment of royalties. She also made the comment that she was not surprised by Spector's current predicament. I don't know much about the Crystals but much luck to her & I hope she gets what's owed to her.

Peace!

By mhc (172.157.183.101) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:28 am:

My own favorite version of "RDMH" by longhaired white boys is on the "Friday On My Mind" album, by The Easybeats. This was in fact the first version of the song that I ever heard (back in '67-'68), It's worth hearing if you ever get the chance.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:50 am:

Tony Russi is right about Phil's bad relationship with radio dj's. Not only did he feel he didn't have to pay off anyone, he also felt he didn't have to play by their rules as to how long (or how short) a song needed to be to get on the air. Keep in mind that "You Lost That Lovin' Feeling" clocked at 3:50 but Phil had the 45 label copy read 3:05. I guess that and the bombastic nature of "River Deep.." made several American radio stations (especially the ones controlled by Bill Drake like LA's KHJ-AM and the great CKLW)turn their collective backs on Mr.Wall of Sound.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:53 am:

I forgot about Deep Purple doing RDMH but I remember Eric Burdon & The Animals version. I think I saw them on "Upbeat" or something doing their version complete with cheesy psychedelic effects. There's this bizarre interlude where Eric says 'Tinaturnertinaturnertinaturner' a bunch of times.
I think RDMH got a bunch of early FM play a few years after it's release coinciding with the "Spector is a Genius" push (big Rolling Stone interview , "Easy Rider" cameo , Beatle involvement)

SteveK

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:54 am:

I believe in a recorded version of River Deep
either by Deep Purple or maybe by Eric Burden
& the Animals--the lead singer calls out
"Tina, Tina, Tina" after the bridge or somewhere
towards the end. Anyone heard this?

Try www.arts.telegraph.co.uk for an article that
appeared SUNDAY on Phil. His first interview in
many, many years. He says he is on medication
and bipolar and he's just now getting back into
the world, that he has lived a tortured life by
demons trapped inside him, hates his life, has
never been happy, and suffers from insomnia.
And, of course, we all know what happened the
day after this story ran in the London Telegraph.

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:55 am:

Randy ; we must be on the same wavelength of dementia this morning !

SteveK

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:58 am:

Wow!!! At the same time!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:24 am:

Harry Nilsson also recorded a version of River Deep, on his debut RCA album "Pandemonium Shadow Show". The rhythm track had a remarkably Spectoreque sound.

In his early days as a songwriting bank clerk, Harry also had a handful of songs recorded by Spector artists, including "This Could Be The Night", and the Ronettes' legendary "Paradise".

By stephanie (199.183.170.212) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:42 pm:

Ritchie
The Supremes with Jean Terrell did Paradise on their Jimmy Webb album and the Shangri las did a horrific version of it too.
Stephanie

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:38 pm:

In the USA, there were three versions of RDMH that charted nationally. Ike & Tina, as previously mentioned, topped out at #88 pop in 1966 and did not chart R&B. The Deep Purple version peaked at #53 pop in 1969. The Supremes & 4 Tops version made it to #14 pop & #7 R&B in 1971.

But before the Supremes & Tops version, there was another "Detroit" version. The Bob Seger System included it as the album closer on their Mongrel LP in 1970.

Regards,
Ken

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:40 pm:

Yes, Stephanie. The Ronettes cut is just superb, and it's astonishing that it lay in the vaults till the seventies. I have to confess, I haven't heard the Supremes' version, but I'm sure it knocks the Shangri-Las' effort into the waste bin!

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 03:54 pm:

Tonight watch Dateline NBC--the Phil Spector story
is one of the main topics.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

What's that flapping noise that I hear? Could it be the sound of circling vultures?

By Philadel Mike (198.81.19.36) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 06:27 am:

First of all, I greatly admire Phil Spector
as an artist DESPITE 1)his often dishonest
business practices and 2) his frequent
psychologically and sometimes physically
abusive behavior toward other people
which sometimes involved guns. (I happen
to believe in responsible ownership
and carrying of guns but not irresponsible
gun posturing and gun use).

Second, my condolences go to the dead
woman and her family, friends and fans.

Third, several allegations I have seen
in the media coverage make things look
very serious for Spector:

-Spector and the victim were allegedly
the only two people in the house at
the time of the shooting;

-the victim was allegedly shot in the
face, and

-Spector allegedly resisted arrest.

I consider several other things worth
noting, namely:

-As of now (Sunday morning Feb 9) Spector
has not yet been charged regarding this
incident although this will very possibly
change soon;

-I am presuming Spector to be innocent
until he confesses or is otherwise
solidly and legally proven guilty,
and

-The media allegations I mentioned
above, once again, make things look
extremely serious for Phil Spector.

By RD (63.188.33.141) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 06:37 am:

From the NY Post:

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/68710.htm

Seems Phil had a habit of pointing guns in women faces.

By douglasm (68.113.15.28) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 09:45 am:

Question...
...in some states you can, in some states you can't. In California, can you be arrested for "suspision" of murder?