By mary (66.3.112.65) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:10 pm:

I am shool teacher, trying to shool my students on line, what a recording studio looks like from the recording engineers view point. It is very hard to explain the placement of musicians in the studio, now that most music is done by computers. The pictures well not be copyed,only viewed on line.......Thank you......PS also would love to have a veteran engineer talk to my class..

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:42 pm:

Mary,
I hope you wll find many things at Soulful Detroit that will aid in your class work. Where are you located? If possible maybe we can get you in touch with an engineer that would be happy to talk with your class. Keep up the good work.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:45 pm:

Mary,
If you haven't looked at the Tera Shirma story yet, it may help in what you are looking for regarding the making of a studio etc. If nothing else there are some pretty good studio shots.

By Ed Wolfrum (69.3.204.127) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:07 pm:

Hello Mary,

Perhaps I can help. I was an engineer at numerous studios in Detorit in the middle to late 60's and at United Sound in Detroit from 1967-1974 or so. However there are many others on the forum that can contribute as well.

Ralph was the principle at Terra Shirma who was our "friendly competitor" and sessions used to bounce back and forth between these rooms all of the time back then. Russ, Ralph's brother and I were very close friends and worked together at Golden World Records earlier. Russ became one of the "star engineers" at Motown.

Please give me an idea of the program at the school and what you have structured and perhaps I can give some input. Perhaps telecommuting is an option as I am familiar with distance learning via the web. I am certain that there are other on the forum who would like to participate as well.

To fill your first request, below is a shot from the control room of the musicians in Studio A at United. At the bottom of the photo are Bob Babbit-Bass, Ray Monette (sp) on git, and another git player who I cannot identify from the rear view. Some dividers seperate the horns on the left, from the rhythm section. In the center is Dale Warren the arranger. This was shot during a break and the piano player, Johnny Griffith was away from the piano.

This was probably a session for STAX records as Dale did many of them at United in that era.




I hope this helps. If you have any questions I will check back on the forum on Thursday.

Ed Wolfrum

By Mary (216.99.240.204) on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:59 pm:

Thank you Mr Wolfrum, you are god sent. Any more photos well help. Also can you travel to my school for a class demonstration. Well pay gas, lunch, and city news paper well be there...

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.89) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 12:09 am:

Dear Mary,

1. "School" is not spelled "shool."

2. The location of the various musicians in a recording studio is not going to be understood by a photograph of a particular setup at a particular recording date.

The locations are a result of a combination of the studio acoustical characteristics, and the needs of the musicians (eye contact, Etc.)

Mr. Wolfrum's fine picture may meet your needs, but it offers almost no education about why the musicians are so located.

3. How can one discuss with you the possibility of visiting your class, when you do not mention the city in which you are located?

4. Mr. Wolfrum is deeply religious. Accordingly, it seems to me that a capital G would be a good idea when you use the word God.

5. I could care less. Accordingly, if you want me to lecture your class, I will consider the possibility. However, I need to know your location, so I can consider the practicality, cost wise.

god (Oops!)

God bless you,

Mike McLean

By jack (67.32.85.107) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 12:01 pm:

Mary you can thank good that you had a chance to see how some evil people think. This person Mike that was giving you advice has shown you that you should not expose your class to anyone like him because he dosen,t have a clue of what he speaks. I have been recording in Detroit for just about as long as Mike has been in the business, and never have I heard anyone say( place the musicians in such a way so they can have eye contact. he funk brothers said that when Earl Van Dyke passed away, we said that when we had his wake.And I can Prove that statement.Jack

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.116) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 02:04 pm:

Dear Jack,

In Mr. Wolfrum's picture, the musicians are facing Dale Warren, the arranger, in the center. If eye contact was not a consideration, they might just as well all be turned around 180 degrees, facing the other way.

Best wishes,

Mike McLean
The evil one

By Ed Wolfrum (69.3.204.127) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:00 pm:

Hello Mary and Jack,

Mike McLean was the former chief engineer at Motown and has much knowledge to share. I think some respect is due here.

Eye contact between musicians is can be important and as you see the musicicans are in the round for that reason. United was a very BIG room and so I usually put the the drummer, Andrew Smith on the session pictured, to tie the entire rhythm section together. However, even in a big band or an orchestra the eye contact is only between the conductor and the musicians. Basically, for me it all depends on how the arranger/conductor and the musicians want to work. It't the music that counts. If that isn't there, it does not matter how it sounds!!!

Regarding acoustic space...Mike again is right and the character of the studio is a big part of the session, or was, in the day of real recording.

United was a wonderful space to work in, but like every room you had to learn how to use it. Placement of musicians in the acoustic space is part of the skill of the engineer and it depends again on the desires of the Producer. That is part of the communications between the engineer/mixer and the producer.

As Mike has written, a picture tells very little about the setup for a session. On many occasions the room was set entirely differently.

Jack, I think your comments to Mike we not too charitable and do not it any way reflect my feelings. As a Christian I must show charity to all. Like everyone I'm human and sometimes fail, but lets try not to offend people by name calling on the forum.

I personally would appreciate an apology to Mike for comments like that. I don't think it was in any way appropriate. Mike was trying to share the wealth of audio knowledge that he has with the forum. Something we all try to share.

Mary, what school are you at, and where? You still have not communicated this as well as what level are the students that are involved. I would assume this is a high school or college level class. We are all still in the dark about that.

I forgive your spelling as I know how I am when I am typing fast as well but I am a poor speller as well.

I will help as I can and as my schedule permits.

Ed Wolfrum

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:08 pm:

Ed ; that's a great picture. Do you have a lot of session pictures or was that taken for some particular reason? Any you'd care to take the time to share would , I'm sure , be appreciated by all.

Steve K.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

Mary,
Welcome to the forum. Sometimes things seem to get a little out of hand but believe me, we are all harmless here.

Mike...geeeze..you can lighten up a little old pal.

Jack... You have to really understand Mike. ( I think forum members are beginning to get the hang of him) What you are to vibes and percussion, Mike is to engineering. You're both a couple of geniuses and lions of distinction. You guys are just at opposite ends of the creative poles. You were on the same team though.

Ed...As always your presence is so welcome here. Thank you for tryng to keep the peace. Nothing like having a good solid Christian on board.

By Friday (65.59.105.218) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:08 pm:

Maybe an apology from Mr.Ashford would be in order but maybe also a firm rebuke would be appropriate toward Mr.Maclean,drawing him out of the dark-something he's unaware of.Yes,he has valuable technical experience but who cares when he's not right on a personal level-meaning the way he is,addressing certain issues.I'm sorry Ralph to write this,I really enjoy this forum-but I for one agree with Jack Ashford.Maybe a consultation with Babbitt would be in order.Friday

By Ed Wolfrum (69.3.204.127) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:18 pm:

Steve,

I really enjoyed photography back then and shot and even processed my own film and prints. I have numerous shots of sessions but it was more a matter of if I had a camera and had the time to grab a shot.

In many cases neither was the case.

Now, the problem is trying to catalog and find all of what I do have. I have been looking for weeks for a shot of the Golden World live chamber that I know I have...SOMEWHERE???

Ed

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:26 pm:

Friday,
I appreciate your comments. That's why this is a forum. I think Jack got a little bent out of shape when Mike erroniously posted the Funk Brothers had been paid union scale for sessions very early on, which was not the case.Now here is the part where you have to let Jack slide a little. You have to really understand the dues the man has paid to get to do all he did. To imply that everything was handed to him right from the start borders on insult. That wasn't the case. Sue Whithall mentioned what the guys were getting early on and she was dead right. 10 t0 $20.00 a side was the norm. And I knew Jack when he was taking that hard earned money and plowing it back into his own productions. Excuse the expression, but the brother had " balls ". At any rate, you would have to have walked in the man's shoes to understand the road he traveled.

Tell you what. Lets not make a big thing out of this. No big deal OK?

By Ed Wolfrum (69.3.204.127) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:28 pm:

Mike,

I think an apology to Mary and to Jack would be appropriate too. Looking at it, it was a pretty curse reply to someone who has entered the forum only to look for good information.

Neither of us could provide an accurate account of all the variables of acoustic placement in the space provided on the forum. She asked for a picture, and that is what I provided.

The place for the explanation is in the classroom where we can do a good first hand job. And to use the words of the famous Fr. John A. Hardon "That could take volumes..."

Ed

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:32 pm:

Seems like a reasonable request Mike. You up to it?

By Friday (65.59.105.218) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:38 pm:

Ralph,I understand what your sharing here.As far as I'm concerned it's a done deal.I enjoy reading the posts on this forum and participating as well.I,like Ed Wolfrum,desire to show charitableness and forgiveness if needed.Let the conversation continue. Friday

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:44 pm:

Charitable ...kind ....hmmm -- is that the same Ed Wolfrum who advised me in all capital letters to CUT THE CRAP?

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:49 pm:

OK gang! Now I'm starting to laugh. This forum amazes me. Every now and then a thread seems to catch fire. Well the smoke is getting really thick here and we may be about ready to combust. Easy everyone. Make nice.....

By Friday (64.157.71.196) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 09:06 pm:

Ed,that's Andrew in that picture.He must of been 20 or 21 years old there.Babbitt looks the same as in other pictures I've seen of him in different years.He's like a fixture.Yes,if you have other pictures please display.Thank you,Friday

By Ed Wolfrum (69.3.204.127) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 10:20 pm:

Hello Friday,

Andrew was probably 19 years old then. I can remember when his dad would bring him to sessions, when he was 15 years old and driving on a learners permit, and he wa playing with the FUNKS at Golden World! We both got started in the business young. I was about 23 or 24 then as I will be 57 on December 30.

Oh, how time flies.

Ralph can probably relate the Terra Shirma experiences as well.

Andrew was born on the 15th of August in 1950 (if you are Catholic, that is the Feast of Assumption of the Blessed Virgin) and he died on 27 April 2000.

Andrew has just completed another degree in journalism a few years earlier, I think it was in 1998 and was doing great work in that field as well. He accomplished much in those 49 years.

He was probably my closest friend in of the Funk Brothers and right up to his death (more then) we talked about once a week.

I miss him so much!

Ed

By Ralph Terrana (ralph) (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 10:25 pm:

Ed,
Andrew was definitely a special guy. I can always hear his voice in my head. That will never go away.

By Friday (64.157.79.6) on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 11:00 pm:

Ed,thank you so much for sharing that information on Andrew.To me,he was one of the best,particularly on"Whatcha See Is Whatcha Get"-Dramatics.That drum performance is of a high caliber.It makes you feel immediate energy.It blows me away to think that he was only 19 on that record.I feel you regarding losing him as your friend.Thanks again,Friday

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.61.70) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 01:58 am:

Dear Mr. Jack Ashford,

I want to apologise for making you angry. I have seen you explain how you refused to pick up that tamborine, twice (because I have seen the movie twice!!!!) in the movie, and you sure look like a nice fellow to me.

I deeply believe that Berry Gordy Jr. conducted his business affairs in a proper manner. Something ticked me off while I was drunk, and it resulted in my brain dump about "The other side."

I made generalizations about what happened between the Funk Brothers and Motown that do not seem to square with the facts. I apologise sincerely. I was just expressing my feelings that Berry has conducted himself honorably.

Any facts that I stated wrongly, such as when and if the Funks were paid full Union scale, are hereby declared null and void, and (in other words) I stand corrected.

Mr. Ashford, the last thing in the world I want to do is make you angry. If defending Berry Gordy Jr. is what makes you angry, then I guess that we are doomed.

If you are offended by my drunken taking of liberties with the facts while presenting my view about Berry Gordy Jr., then I, at once, bow down at your feet and sincerely ask your forgivness.

Sincerely yours,

Mike McLean

By fenderpbass66 (151.203.3.245) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 07:11 am:

Mike,
I am posting, in great anticipation of the cyber thrashing you may unleash towards me when I "correct" you for mis-spelling APOLOGIZE.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 08:46 am:

Fenderbass,

Mike spells it "apologise" which is correct English, you spell it "apologize" which I assume is correct American.

The meaning is the same.

Can we have a bit of tolerance, please.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:04 am:

Mike,
Amen and amen....

By Clay (66.73.216.154) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:16 am:

Sometimes the animals are off the chain lol
Happy Holidays

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 09:29 am:

Jack&Mike,If you all lived in Detroit here's what works .
We get a bottle of gin,twist one up,go to a place we can talk,and have a third party there just to keep the thing flowing in the right direction.
Since you both worked in different parts of motown, I bet in about 15 minutes you both would be laughing your asses off trading stories about the old days.

WHAT!!! It worked with most the bands I worked with.
Hmmm---Maybe if we could get pres.Bush& Saddam to try my suggestion-------
Peace brothers,it's the Christmas season
LYNN

By padgburyman (195.93.33.10) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 11:47 am:

Mike

You spell forgiveness with 2 'E's.

Sorry!

Geoff

By Ed Wolfrum (69.3.204.127) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 11:56 am:

Thank you Mike, God bless you for the wonderful apology.

Hey you Limie's!!! When are you going to learn about "The King's English" and learn how to spell.
What the matter with you? We Yanks have properly learned how to bastardize the language and you simply will not follow us!!!

Ed

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.45) on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 12:02 pm:

Ahem,Mr.Wolfrum Sir,
What on earth is a Limie.
Good Lord,what on earth would Mr Charles Dickens,William Shakespeare or the great Wordsworth,Keats and Byron think of such a word.
I Look most forward Sir,
To your reply.
Mel.
Somebody please pass the decanter of fine Port over.

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.38) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:51 am:

Hello everyone. It was important to me as a musician to be in close proximity with the other musicians to get the right feel. You had to see the arranger/producer who was conducting/directing the session for cues and tempos etc. I never felt I had to have eye contact with all of the musicians on the session although it made the session more fun, it wasn't always necessary. The smaller studio rooms like Motown and Mussel Shoals really did help us get a tight groove.

Dennis