By DF (208.27.111.121) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 06:13 pm:

Gotta make comments on two of Soul Music's alltime drummers. One of the similarities is the use of triplets.

Benny would triplet you to death on a Motown swing tune (Temptations' early hits like "The Way You Do The Things You Do", "I'll Be In Trouble", "Girl's Alright With Me", etc.). Also, Benny sounded like a souled up marching band with that rhumba feel on the snare.

And no one played the triplets on ballads like Philly drummer Earl Young. Check out the O'Jays "Sunshine", Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes "It's All Because Of A Woman" and Major Harris' "Love Won't Let Me Wait". Young singlehandedly brought dance music out of the 1960's with hit uptempo four-on-the-floor pocket! and sizzling hit hat. And who had better sounding tom toms??? Peace

By PhillyGrove (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 06:47 pm:

Thanks for giving two of the greatest drummers of all time their due! While I am in awe of Benny's innovations and style in helpfing to define the Motown sound, Earl Young is my all time favorite drummer. He's the drummer who invented the "disco" soul beat. I think his use of toms is great, note on the Spinner's "One of A Kind (Love Affair)," among others.

I've been learning to play drums for just over a year and find inspiration from both of these fine drummers every day! How grateful I am that Benny,"Pistol," Uriel, and the other Funk Brothers are finally getting the recognition they deserve. And how grateful I am that Earl Young was kind enough to return my phone call to inspire and encourage me as a new student (at age 46 no less!).

PhillyGroove

By givethedrummersome (205.188.209.38) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 12:22 am:

Geez,
Bobby, Carl and I missed you at the Apollo on 11/7. I was able to convince Carl to make it to the event and I brought my wife and twin sons along to enjoy the experience. We had a chance to hang for a short time in New York then spent the rest of the weekend in Downingtown PA. Everybody had a great time and actually for me that was the second time that I saw SITSOM, first was in Austin, TX. I plan to see it again with a bunch of my Houston friends this weekend. I am hoping that this blows up and I can help arrange to get the Funk Brothers down here.

Now, I agree with you about Earl and all of the drummers that played a beat on the songs that we all know and enjoy. Quite frankly, my drum playing experience with Allan and our band back when, was the most fun experience and I will never forget it. We were a soul band and covered a lot of Motown, Stax, Philadelphia International and James Brown, in fact I can attest to Allan wanting to take the lead on James Brown's "Say it Loud,I'm black and I'm Proud", he did it and did it well "The message is in the music" (heard that before?) He diffinetly was a soul man and the proof is in his work.

One of my favorite power walk cd's is Teddy P's Greatest hits', and I can hear you all over the rythmn. I do hope to get to meet you one day and be able to say, let's jam.

Regards

Lonnie

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 11:59 am:

Hey Gang:
I'm not a percussion expert but as far as classic drumming in pop music, Benny wins hands down. I do enjoy the work Earl Young has done with PIR and he was innovative, but to me Benny created a style that was distinct and easily recognizable. I remember a 1990s group called After 7 that (dare I say this) sampled one of Papa Zita's drum triplets on a record they had called "Nights Like This" - which gave the production a more retro-edge. While Benny may have used this formula repeatedly, Mr. Gordy and the fans didn't seem to mind.
Regards,
KevGo

By DF (208.27.111.121) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 12:40 pm:

And speaking of more triplets, check out a ballad from the late Allyah called "I care 4 U". The drumming (or drum programming) is straight out of a "class" called Earl Young 101. Peace.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

DF:
It seems obvious that by the rather snotty tone of that last posting (and your introduction) that you seemed biased toward the drum-style of Earl Young, which is your perogative. Yet, please have some respect for those who may not agree or have a different perspective than yours. At least I was somewhat objective when I said that Earl's playing was innovative (such as the work he had done on the O'Jays "For The Love Of Money" and "Back Stabbers"). Again, a little respect can go a long way.
Regards,
KevGo

By givethedrummersome (205.188.209.38) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 04:05 pm:

Hey KevGo
Chill out, it's in the beat. I don't think anyone is trying to create a confrontation. "The Message is in the Music". If it is working, it's cool no matter who it is.

Lonnie

By Ed Wolfrum (66.167.190.77) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 04:47 pm:

Thank God we had both of these fine percussionists. Benny set the pace and Earl pushed the flight envelope. There is no saying where Benny would have gone had God kept him with us.

Besides Pistol and Urial you also had George McGregor and Andrew Smith pushing Benny's "FLIGHT ENVELOPE" even further.

I have some unreleased Fusion/Soul/Rock stuff that Andrew arranged and played on with Dennis, Babbit, Johnny, Joe Hunter, that would "quiver your liver." You can hear the next development on both of those styles in it. The problem is music regressed, because of lack of music education, into the sampled junk they call music today. Devoid of feel and soul.

Let's pray it gets back on track.

Ed

By DF (208.27.111.121) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 05:01 pm:

There was no snotty intent when I wrote the threads. Never thought the threads would be percieved as either biased or snotty. I'll take responsibility for the misunderstanding. We're all in this groove together. Peace.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 05:17 pm:

Ed:
I completely agree with the way music education has regressed in this country by way of cutbacks & budget crunching. That's why I volunteer my time giving talks & lectures on music history to youth in schools & community centers wherever & whenever I can. Hopefully, if one kid picks up an instrument or asks how an audio board works, then I've done my job. Hopefully we can all do the same.
Best regards,
Kevin L. Goins - "KevGo"

By Ed Wolfrum (66.167.190.77) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 07:34 pm:

Amen, Kevin. I look forward to meeting you some day.

It was not just budget cuts that did it. In Ohio, they have 1/2 the funding that Michigan does for music programs and I can't believe what they are turning out. Great Students!!! The key is passionate people who donate time, teachers who care and don't just teach for the $$$ and parents that care.

The proof of this fact is in the former Catholic School (pre-Vatican II), run buy dedicated religious (nun and brothers), who were paid peanuts and looked at teaching as a vocation. (Look that word up and you will understand.) From them we got the likes of Ellington, Hampton, Kenton, Paul Paray, Popcorn Wylie and countless others that I am not personally aware of. Oh what we have lost.

Ed

By Phillysoulman (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 02:50 am:

For many years as primary guitarist for MFSB and it's other incarnations, I was fortunate to have sat less than a foot away from one of the greatest studio drummers of all time, Earl Young.
The air that was pushed by the sheer force of his playing was something to behold, as were his famous grunts which can sometimes be heard when soloing the drum tracks.
At Sigma during the seventies, the ambiance of studio one permitted our rhythm section to feel a collective pulse that was a marvel to behold by the fortunate producers who have graced the hallowed hall.
Many drummers have tried to duplicate Earl's signature "skip" and snare "bounce" by pale by comparison.
You would have to literally raise your eyebrows to the beat and grunt in between the groove to do this. There was a secret to his snare tuning which I do not care to share at this time, as well as certain mikes which were used as well as the kit itself and the acoustics of the room and the room spill.. As I have previously stated, I WAS THERE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, and with no disrespect to the others, as far as sheer power is concerned, Earl has my vote.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 01:16 pm:

I had an epiphany the first time I ever turned Benny's track off in an eight-track mix. From that day forward I considered him to be by far the most under-rated of the funk brothers. It wasn't obvious at all UNTIL you turned him off.

By PhillyGroove (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 05:09 pm:

Thanks, Phillysoulman, for taking us into the studio with MFSB and Earl Young's driving drums. I really appreciate the feeling of the beat and the ambiance of the studio in your post. In recording a new arrangement, did the producers, like Thom Bell or G&H, describe how they wanted Earl to approach the song, or did they let him just go with it? Also, maybe someday you'll feel free to describe his tuning method.

PhillyGroove

By Ed Wolfrum (66.167.190.77) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 06:37 pm:

Oh where, Oh where are the great drummers like these guys today?

Ed

By Phillysoulman (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 07:00 pm:

Hi Philly Groove,

First of all , are you from Philly??
Earl was and is a natural when it comes to feel. He is somewhat of a mind reader, and when he is on he is ON!! For the most part, most of the producers justlet him go for it. In the case of The Love I Lost,it was originally written as a ballad for the Dells much in the Oh What A Nite ballad groove as they were scheduled at the time.
Inthe heat tof the moment andafter a few tokes of the ol ganja, Huff said, "f**k it, put it right here" and Earl magically started to play the famous "disco" groove right there on the spot right out of thin air!!! It never was rehearsed, it just happened. Somehow, that guitar intro just came to me like a bolt out of the blue. The bass intro on Bad Luck was something Ronnie Baker played as Huff counted off the tune and not intended originally.
It was a moment of divine inspiration at best!!
It all came together in ONE TAKE !!! For the love of money was written around Anthony Jacksons bass riff and Backstabbers was re-cut the next day but G&H kept the previous days track.
Thom Bell wrote everything out, note for note including the drum music. Although Earl did not read music, it all magically came together as if he did. The drum intro on One of a kind love afair was created on the spot to compliment the song.
The drum feel on I'll be around Could it be... was borrowed from Lets stay together and expounded upon and used on Mighty Love as well.
The chemistry that we all shared was uncanny and unexplainable, but it worked.
I do believe that our method of approaching a track was much looser than the asembly line approach at Motown, for it did not matter how long it took to get a song down, justas long as we got it down, for in Philly in was quality not quantity!! Sometimes there was only one song done , and sometimes two. Very rarely was there more.You cannot rush a fine wine, can you??
We were not on a time clock and if it took all day then so be it, and we were all compensated for it. I heard from reliable sources that at Motown the musicians were paid a paltry $100 a week!! We averaged $1000 a day or more.
Sometimes, we would do cash dates a a source of supplemental income from those who did not have the budget, butI can truly say as studio musicians we were definitely taken care of.

By PhillyGroove (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 08:44 pm:

Dear Phillysoulman,

Forgive my being "dense," but I'm pretty new around here and just realized that you are Bobby Eli! I am not from Philly, but I attended a small Midwest college and was station manager and a dj on the college station from 1972-1977. I loved every song out of Philly. The whole range from the Delfonics to Harold Melvin to The O'Jays to The Spinners to The Stylistics to Blue Magic, and MFSB, are my favorites of all time. As you may have read in my post earlier, I started to play drums a year ago (I have no musical background and I'm 46 years old).

I continue to find inspiration in "The Sound of Philadelphia." Right now I'm working out "Sideshow." Immortal songs. How grateful I am to have the opportunity to correspond with the greats. Thanks for painting the picture of what it was like in the studio. For me, between the drumming and learning more about the players, it's like walking into a beautiful new mansion for the first time and being amazed by getting to know every room.

PhillyGroove

By Bradburger (172.181.202.20) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 08:52 pm:

Hi all

Thanks for all the intresting info on these great drummers.

I've always been a BIG Benny fan.

As Bob quite rightly states Benny is underated compared to the other Funks and other drummers of the period.I always wondered how someone could play like he did and not get the recognition for it. The fact that his drumming style has been ripped off as much as Jamersons Bass playing says it all.

Legend!

When I first got the "Complete Duets" CD I was blown away by his drumming on the Tammi Terrell solo version of "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". It's not all that apparent on the MG & TT version as it had additional Uriel Jones overdubbs on it. And for more greatness, listen to him on The Spinners "I'll Always Love You" and "Truly Yours".

Pure Genius!

As Stevie Wonder said "Benny had a feel that no one could match".

How true.

I of course have a lot of respect for Uriel & Pistol as they had a hard act to follow and did an outstanding job. But Benny, like Jamerson, had that extra something that made him stand out from the rest.

I think maybe because of his drug problems and the fact that he was often late for sessions and other stories that have circulated about him over the years have overshadowed his remarkable talent.

This is a real pitty as everyone who knew him speaks highy of him as a person and say that he was one of the nicest people you could have ever met.

It's a shame like so many of the other Funks he is no longer with us.

Cheers

Paul

By DF (24.168.8.162) on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 11:17 pm:

A few more things on Benny Benjamin and Earl Young:

Benny was the first to use triplets in Soul music. Cats like Earl Young (MFSB) and Diamond Williams (Ohio Players) took it to another level. The drumming in Mary Wells's "My Guy" put everything on the map.

And an example of Earl Young's power (as Phillysoulman put it) is "Love Is The Message", a tune we in BKNY call The Brooklyn National Anthem! Another example is Harold Melvin's "Cabaret". I wonder, did Young use brushes (sounds like it) on "Caberet"? The drum sound from that song is unbelievable!

On another note, on Love Is The Message, the Ronnie Baker bass part on the verse ("Love is the message that I bring to you...") sounds similar to the Jamerson bassline to the verse on the Temps "My Girl" ("I got sunshine on a cloudy day..."). Another example of musicians, despite being on competiting labels, appreciating one another.

By Eli (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 12:59 am:

To DF..
The figure you speak about,on My Girl and Love is the message, ie three eigth notes that fall on the and of 4 to 1 and etc.. is a common bass figure used for decades and long before Motown and PIR were conceived.
Eli

By Sue (152.163.188.68) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 01:51 pm:

I just love what the drummer does on "TSOP" and I'm assuming that's Earl ...that skip beat he did was the best of disco and totally foreshadows the whole breakbeat thing.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 04:18 pm:

The fact that Benny kept getting the session calls DESPITE his personal problems speaks volumes about his playing.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.34) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 05:20 pm:

Bob,

I was amazed when I read that he'd turn up and
play on sessions while drunk - my reaction was
"if he's that good when a few degrees under what must he be like firing on all cylinders".

I try to avoid getting into those "A is better
than B" discussions - but Benny's the man for me.

It was said it took two drummers to replace him.

Can I just give a namecheck to Chicago session man Quinton Joseph. Not as well known as
Benny or Earl but a fine drummer - his work
behind people like Tyrone Davis is just spot on.

By Phillysoulman (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 11:17 pm:

Davie ,Quinton "Zob" Joseph did some session work at PIR as well. In fact I saw him the other day while I was at the old PiR studio checking out a band. He was Huff's tech guy for a long time. I do not know why he was there as there is not much going on there.
Sue, it was Earl Young and his drumming set the standard for what was to become the Philly Sound.

If you listen to "Vogue" by Madonna, someone did a poor imitation of that drum groove, as only Earl had the extra ingredient which made it work.

In fact, there were several drummers who came in in and tried to be "the next Earl".
Same kit, same studio, same mikes, same everything, but not the same groove that only Earl can play with that extra ingredient.

Remember, Earl was originally a bass singer and not technicaly a drummer and did not know a paradiddle from a flamadiddle!! But because of his lack of TECHNICAL PROWESS and not having the desire to be the next Billy Cobham or Steve Gadd,
he used his marvelous metronomic ingenuity and his heavy hands to create our wonderful PHILLY GROOVE.

By BCNYC (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 11:25 pm:

May I just humbly add that no less a drummer than James Gadson told me without prompting that he'd dreamed of being the west coast Earl Young, but realized it was just impossible and gave up trying. Now that's a gracious man. (His point, of course, was that you have to follow your own muse and find your own style. But to put it that way was really something.)

By Eli (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 11:36 pm:

James Gadson is a great guy and I worked on some sessions with him in LA nd he is a great drumer in his own right.

By Eli (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 11:56 pm:

We must give props to the great Al Jackson one of the most understated and laid back and one of a kind drummers ever. He set the standard for the snare and tom backbeat started on Lets stay Together and expounded upon by Earl young for the early Spinners sides.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 10:07 am:

Bobby,

Thanks for the info. on Quinton Joseph - it's good to know he's still around.

I keep forgetting Earl was a singer before he
became a drummer - I take your point about him
not wanting to become another Billy Cobham,
who may well be a more techncally proficient
musician but to be honest bores me. I'd never say
the same about Earl. Having the "groove" is much
better than having all the technicalities.

Al Jackson deserves all his props, where would
Al Green have been without him ?

Do you remember when the Spinners were having their initial run of hits on Atlantic Motown
reissued "Together We Can Make Such Sweet Music"
with a new "Philly style" drum track? I wonder
who that drummer was.

Welcome back to the forum, we've missed you.

By 1wicked (64.32.154.94) on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 03:32 pm:

I've got love for both Bennie and Earl...they both did what they did within their respective framework to the MAX ...giving the writers and producers a helluva lot more than they paid for!! My favorite Earl Young track is "I'll Always Love My Mama" (long version). As soon as you think you can follow his pattern...he changes it up.

By Eli (152.163.188.68) on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 03:55 pm:

That was Earl for you.
When Glass House had Crumbs off the table out Earl loved that groove so much he used it a lot and always said "lets try that Glass House groove, its the s**t"
You can hear it When the worlds at peace by the Ojays and even Engine #9 to some degree.

Also they tell me that Quinton Joseph used to STAND UP when he played those Chicago sessions!!
Got it straight from the horses mouth!!!