By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 03:04 am:

GREETINGS; IT IS OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WHO REGULARLY VIEWS THIS FORUM, THAT IF ONE FIGURE EMERGES ABOVE ALL OTHERS IN TERMS OF GENERAL INTEREST, IT WOULD MOST CERTAINLY BE BASSIST JAMES JAMERSON. FIRST OF ALL, IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT FORTHWITH, BASS PLAYERS WERE GENERALLY VIEWED AS THE "OFFENSIVE LINEMAN" OF THE MUSICAL PRODUCTION...NECESSARY FOR SUCCESS. BUT NOT THE GUY WHO CATCHES THE TOUCHDOWN PASSES. JAMERSON STOOD ABOVE THAT LOGIC, AND WAS PROBABLY AN ILLOGICAL CHARACTER TO ASSUME THAT DISTINCTION.. WE ARE ALL FAMILIAR WITH THE BRILLIANCE AT WHICH HE DISPLAYED HIS CRAFT, AS WELL AS THE DEEPER, MORE MYSTERIOUS PARTS OF HIS PERSONALITY . DOES A PERSON LIKE THIS GET DRIVEN TO TORMENT BY WAY OF THEIR GENIUS...OR IS THEIR GENIUS A BYPRODUCT OF THEIR TORMENT???...JOSH GIBSON WAS CONSIDERED BY MANY TO BE THE GREATEST HOME RUN HITTER OF ALL TIME..REFERRED TO AS THE "BLACK BABE RUTH". HE MOST CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN A STAR HAD BASEBALL ALLOWED NEGRO'S INTO THE MAJOR LEAGUES. WHEN INTEGRATION FIRST BECAME A REALITY IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, IT HAD TO BE DECIDED WHO THE FIRST BLACK PLAYER IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES WOULD BE. JOSH GIBSON WAS THE GREATEST PLAYER IN THE OLD NEGRO LEAGUES...THE ULTIMATE SUPERSTAR OF LEGENDARY PROPORTIONS, HOWEVER HIS INCREASINGLY ERRATIC BEHAVIOR DOOMED HIS CHANCES. IT IS REPORTED THAT WHEN JACKIE ROBINSON WAS SELECTED TO BECOME THE FIRST ...GIBSON WENT INTO A DEEP STATE OF DEPRESSION AND NEVER RECOVERED, DYING IN HIS 30'S.... IS THIS SIMILAR TO THE ULTIMATE FATE OF JAMES JAMERSON? DID HIS GENIUS WHICH WAS ALLOWED TO FLOURISH IN THE LOOSELY STRUCTERED MOTOWN ENVIRONMENT BECOME THE VICTIM OF THE HIGHLY STRUCTURED AND SANITARY ENVIRONMENT OF LOS ANGELES. COULD JAMES NOT ADJUST TO THE INDUSTRY'S EXPECTATIONS, OR COULD THE INDUSTRY NOT ADJUST TO JAMES GENIUS???...COMMENTS APPRECIATED!!!...STU

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.110) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 03:21 am:

Nice piece Stu.
Mel.

By DF (24.168.8.162) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 06:26 am:

Good piece. A couple of things. First, The answer to your question at the end is: Both. James Jamerson, like his bandmembers, was an "around the way" cat who, obviously had a tough time dealing with the emerging corporate mentality of the music industry. And the industry is now ran like a business, not like the mom-and-pop store atmosphere at Hitsville. So the business (especially the West Coast) would have a hard time dealing with Jamerson.

But the circumstances surrounding Josh Gibson are much different. But first some background. In order the first Negro Leaguer to be selected for the Big Leagues, one had to be qualified for the job. That did not involve only talent. It involved: 1) Psychological toughness and character in the face of the eventual harrassment (and taking it for three years); and 2) being the right person to fit in the Dodger organization.

In fact, Branch Richey wanted Monte Irvin for the job. But It is my understanding that Monte Irvin, returning from WWII, did not have his skills back yet. So Richey went with the next qualified person, Jackie Robinson. Remember, the job, besides talent, involved character and psychological toughness. Jackie was not as talented as Josh, Satchel Paige or even Monte Irvin. But he was the most qualified for the job.

Remember the psychological exam Richey gave Jackie? In order to see if Jack could take the harrassment? Jackie passed that with flying colors!! Paige would have failed that because he was a no-nonsense cat who probably may have punched Richey out after the second question.

Gibson was worse. He was an unstable drug addict (let's be real, he was!), had Gibson been brought up, that would have been highly unacceptable to MLB and the public, and would have set Black recruitment of players (how about employment in general) back 30 years.

Jackie, on the other hand, understood the three year probationary period, and the ramifications of getting through it (for himself, his collegues and America). Paige and Gibson did not. In the beginning of any job, there's a probationary period. No, you should no longer have to endure harrassment like Jackie, but you still may have to "get the coffee and do the mail". Jack understood that, while Josh and Satch did not. Peace.

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 08:54 am:

Hi Stu. I was at the Roostertail the night of the premier of Standing in the Shadows of Motown when Jamerson's cousin Felix Mcknight came up to me. He showed me original pictures of Jamerson, his wife Anne, and me and my first wife Joyce at a party. I think it was at Stevie Wonder's wedding reception. Jamerson was my best friend at Motown. I got the genuis part but he was not tormented when I knew him. When I used him on my albums, I gave him a chord chart and let him play. I was surprized when arrangers would write out these detailed bass lines for him instead of just letting him play. I have recently just found a lost tape of myself, Jamerson and drummer Melvin Davis playing funk and jazz live at Morey Bakers in Detroit in the late sixties. It is smoking! I am mixing it along with Ed Wolfrum. I will be open for record label offers.

Dennis Coffey

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 10:19 am:

DF; THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS. RIGHT ON TARGET ON YOUR EXPLANATION OF THE INTEGRATION OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. I COULDN'T HELP THINKING OF THE PARALLEL BETWEEN JAMERSON AND JOSH GIBSON. ANOTHER THAT COMES TO MIND IS CHARLIE "YARDBIRD" PARKER...ANOTHER GENUIS PLAGUED BY PERSONAL DEMONS WHO DIED WELL BEFORE HIS TIME...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 10:32 am:

DENNIS; I THOUGHT YOU WERE IN PITTSBURGH THIS WEEKEND...OR IS IT NEXT? THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT ON JAMES JAMERSON. I WAS REFERRING TO MRS. JAMERSONS REMARKS REGARDING HIS "TORMENTING DEMONS" AND SOMEWHAT CONFLICTED BEHAVIOR. IT MUST HAVE BEEN QUITE AN EXPERIENCE TO WORK WITH SOMEONE OF HIS TALENT AND CREATIVITY. BY THE WAY...I'M SURE THAT I HEARD YOU AT MORRIE BAKERS ON OCCASSION, AND I WONDER IF I WAS THERE WHEN YOU HAD JAMERSON ON THE SET. MORRIE AND MARV HAD GREAT TALENT THROUGH THAT PLACE...THE COUNTS, ROD LUMPKIN, YOURSELF, AND MANY MORE. I WOULD SOMETIMES SEE "STEVIE" WITH HIS BROTHER CALVIN IN THERE, SITTING AT THE FOOT OF THE STAGE, PORTABLE KEYBOARD HOOKED IN, JUST GROOVIN WITH WHOEVER WAS PLAYING THAT NIGHT. THANKS AGAIN FOR THE INFO, AND ENJOY YOUR TRIP TO PITTSBURGH...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 10:35 am:

PS TO DENNIS; YOU LOOKED GREAT IN SITSOM...STU

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 11:25 am:

Coffey-Jamerson-Davis ; talk about a "Dream Team". I would absolutely LOVE to have that cd and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Steve K.

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:52 pm:

Hi Stu. I am leaving for Pittsburgh tomorrow. We had a lot of fun at Morey's. Maybe you were there if you remember me playing with a trio - Jamerson, me and Melvin. I was also there with the Lyman Woodard trio. Lyman is a fantastic organ player.

Dennis

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:54 pm:

Thanks Steve. You wouldn't be disappointed.

Dennis

By LChappy (68.44.85.50) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:57 pm:

I just went to see Standing...It was great to see the unsung heros of Motown finally get their due credit. I wish the film had shown how a few more of the songs were put together from a musical perspective. When I think of Motown a lot instruments come to mind, but it was the Jamerson's bass that kept it driving. Are there any tracks available with just the funk brothers available for sale? It would be great to hear the guys without the singers...or some jazz/funk tracks(CDs) with the guys?

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 01:01 pm:

DENNIS; I KENW LYMAN PRETTY WELL. YOU'RE RIGHT...HE WAS A FINE ORGANIST. ANOTHER GUY YOU PROBABLY KNOW IS GUITARIST ROBERT LOWE. I HAD THE PLEASURE OF ROBERT PLAYING FOR ME ON A FEW OCCASSIONS. I LOVED HIS LICKS AND HE'S A SUPER NICE GUY. ALSO...DO YOU REMEMBER A DRUMMER THAT USED TO POP IN THERE OCASSIONALLY NAMED CARMINE SOMETHING. HIS DRUM SOLO'S WOULD TEAR THE PLACE UP. I WONDER WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM? THANKS DENNIS...STU

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 06:43 pm:

Hi Stu. I saw Robert and his group playing at Bart's Place about six months ago. He still sounds good. He gave me Lyman's email address and we exchanged emails and phone numbers.

Dennis

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.109) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 11:48 pm:

Dennis,
on another thread you mentioned that you once worked with Kris Peterson,any news regards what Kris is up to these days?
Regards,
Mel.
Stu,
apologies, for changing the subject.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 12:52 am:

IT'S OK MEL... SO LONG AS YOU DON'T BRING UP JUST WHAT YOU AND "GRANNY" WERE SMOKING OUT OF THAT CORN COB PIPE!!!...STU

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 01:06 am:

Mel,
I'm in touch with Kris Peterson. She's working a non-music day job in the Detroit area -- she used to sing in an ex-b.f.'s (of mine's) band and last year we ran into each other again. She occasionally sings with the Sun Messengers here in town -- they have a regular Greektown Casino gig -- but Millie and I weren't successful in luring Kris out last summer, she was moving house and canceled at the last minute.

Haven't tried lately.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.76) on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 03:07 am:

Stu,
I Have just picked myself up from the floor,after laughing after your comment,I wanted you to keep that a secret about granny and myself,but obviously she has passed the pipe over to you.
Sue.
Many thanks for the info,
could you please let her know that she still has a lot of fans over here,especially on the rare/northern soul circuit.
Yet another artist that has had dancers played on our scene,and please send her my best wishes.
Mel.

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0) on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 03:39 am:

I finally got to see SITSOM yesterday with my Detroit-born wife and our six-year-old son and of course it was everything I had hoped for. The kid nodded out sometimes during the "talk" parts but was always up and dancing for the music - he really grooved to "Cloud Nine" as I'm sure Dennis will be happy to hear!

As for the "controversy" in another thread about the sound of the record - I will buy the soundtrack regardless. If they remix it, I'll just buy it again to support the Funk Bros.

- Gary Rosen

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 04:15 pm:

Dennis:
I'd be interested in hearing the Jamerson jam session you did. Please email me when you come back from Pittsburgh (kevingoins@juno.com).
Regards,
Kevin Goins
"KevGo"

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.42.38) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 01:01 am:

StuBass,

Have you ever met Ed Wolfrum?

I think that you two fellows would see eye to eye.

There once was a newspaper which had a motto:

"For enquiring minds."

Mike McLean

By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 01:54 am:

HEY MIKE; DIDN'T I JUST TALK TO YOU??? I DON'T KNOW ED PERSONALLY, BUT HE AND MY BROTHER ARE PALS. I HAVE RECIEVED A FEW OF HIS E-MAIL JOKES FORWARDED TO ME BY MY BROTHER, AND BRUCE KNOWS HOW I FEEL ABOUT THOSE JOKES (INSIDE JOKE)...STU

By Allen (24.165.80.12) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 08:50 am:

Consider this...

Supose you had re-written the English language. Everything that was, was no more. The new language you created was picked up and used by everyone around the world. People were communicating more effectively than ever before. Now, imagine that no one knew you re-wrote the new language. You aren't receiving any compensation. The people you gave it to have become wealthy beyond anyones wildest dreams. And nobody even knows who you are.

Don't you think that might cause you some torment?

Allen

By BassLand (63.207.60.89) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 08:52 am:

AMEN

By Gary Rosen (12.234.25.217) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:20 am:

And on top of all that, someone *else* is claiming that *they* were the one who rewrote the English language!

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:52 am:

GARY: GOOD SHOT!!!...HEY ALLEN AND BOB!!!...STU

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:52 am:

Allen,

Amen to Bob's Amen and to your analogy.

Seems there's a small minority of folks who give credit where credit's due. I've know of musician's who take credit for sh_t they ripped off. It's pretty disgusting to see ego run amok.

Allan Slutsky's book on JAMERSON was and is SO important, in a sense for Mankind and at minimum the Jamerson family.

Jamerson's story is symbolic of (an) aspect of the human condition whose ugly head has 2 faces: Contempt and Greed. Jealousy by artists needing a new style who haven't had the balls to search to find their own - - why I admire Coltrane so much.

Greed can be found at Hitsville via BG himself. I mentioned before, CK said "There wouldn't be a Motown w/o Jamerson". BG knew it and kept him under strict license. It's only business so I don't fault Berry.

I do wonder if he turned his back on JJ, like others with power turned away from Bird. Was JJ impossible to work with? Did he lose his chops??

Anyway, thank G-D we have the recordings and folks with conviction (Allan).

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 03:29 pm:

WOW STU,YOU EVER THINK ABOUT A CAREER IN POLITICS,I"D VOTE FOR YOU.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 04:09 pm:

Allen - James Jr. has said some nice things about you. Would you please call James Jr. (Jimmy), and ask him to get on the computer somewhere and speak to us? :o)

Thanks, Sis

By stephanie (205.187.255.24) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 12:23 am:

Dennis
I remember seeing you on Soul Train as a little girl when you did Scorpio !!! (im 40 years old)...
Man I LOVE that song all of my friends bought it and grooved to it. As a child that was the first time I heard of Dennis Coffey and didnt know until later years you were affiliated with Motown.
Steph

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:33 am:

Hey Stephanie,

Dennis was on Soultrain dessed as a little girl?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:43 am:

For those who have not seen the film SITSOM, when you finally see it, please look at all of the credits. During the credits, music is playing. One such tune is a live audio from the Chit Chat Lounge, featuring "The James Jamerson Quartet." It is a great jazz piece with Jamerson playing a solo on the upright.

Does anyone know the other musicians in that group, and any other information concerning the jazz compo?

By Allen (24.165.80.12) on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 04:03 pm:

Hi Sis,

I put in a call to Jimmy this morning. I left him a message stating that you'd like to hear from him. Hopefully, he'll receive it and log on soon.

Allen

By Jim G (12.47.224.13) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 07:11 am:

I think Jamerson had much in common with Bix Beiderbecke: Bix was, essentially, a Zebra running with a herd of horses. He was a genius who adapted his concept to fit in with jazz, because it was the closest thing to the sounds he heard in his head. Bix devised a language that connected jazz and European classical music that was (too) far ahead of its time. His concept was so strong that he had a significant influence upon jazz, bringing a lyricism and 'cool' approach to the music during a time when jazz was hot, hot, hot!
Bix needed a benefactor who would let him compose & perform without worry of money.
I think the earlier question of James' genius being under-utilized and/or under-appreciated was right on the mark. I believe it was.
I always wondered what James and Miles Davis would have come up with. Did they meet? I don't have Slutsky's or Mile's books to hand, don't recall if either man mentioned it.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 06:33 pm:

JIM: INTERESTING CONCEPT...HOWEVER I DO WONDER AT JUST WHAT LEVEL MILES AND JAMES WOULD HAVE COMMUNICATED...GENIUS TO GENIUS...OR ECCENTRIC TO ECCENTRIC (MEANT ONLY IN THE MOST POSITIVE AND INTELLECTUAL WAY)???...ALSO...WOULD THEIR RESPECTIVE MUSICAL GENRES HAVE MESHED OR CONFLICTED???...SOMETHING WE'LL NEVER KNOW...UNFORTUNATLY!!!...STU

By Larry (12.141.160.25) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:19 am:

Song Info Needed: "You're The Man" by Marvin Gaye. Who's the band? Who's on bass?
Is it the funks and JJ? Doesn't sound like either.

I searched the Forum and found NO reference to this track.

Thanks for any info.
p.s. one of the hippest, funkiest tracks I know. Almost sounds like Verdine White on bass.