By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 06:36 am:| By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 06:36 am: |
Reading the info posted about Johnny Griffith, and the numerous Brunswick label hits he played on, got me wondering about the interaction between the soul recording worlds in these 2 cities in the 60's (Detroit & Chicago -- probably THE major 2 60's soul cities).
I know the Pied Piper Production team (Joe Hunter, Jack Ashford, etc.) cut a lot of stuff for RCA in Chicago (Metros, etc.) and that earlier the Checkmate label set-up linked the Chess and Motown set-ups together, but are there many other cases of linkage between the two cities singers / musicians / producers.
| By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.34) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 08:23 am: |
John,
Just off the top of my head there are instances
such as the Vandellas doing backups on John Lee
Hooker sessions for VeeJay and Tamla picking up
an early One-Derful track by Little Otis for
national release. There are doubtless dozens
more but they're a few that came to mind.
| By Sue (152.163.188.68) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 09:37 am: |
I know the Funk Bros. played backup on Jackie Wilson's "Higher and Higher" for Brunswick -- wasn't it cut in Chicago?
| By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 09:53 am: |
Virtually all record labels had manufacturing plants in the Chicago area and it was the home of the independent record industry that first brought us jazz recordings. The plants were located there originally because Lake Michigan sand was a major ingredient of the shellac 78 rpm records. Most labels had studios in the New York area because of its proximity to Broadway and Tin Pan Alley and in Chicago because that's where their sales force, their pressing plant and the biggest wholesalers and retailers of records were located.
Motowners who got their start in the Chicago record industry, off the top of my head, include Ewart Abner, Johnny Bristol, Harvey Fuqua, Marvin Gaye, Jr Walker, Ron Miller and Archie Levington who was the head of our music publishing. I always understood that Berry Gordy Jr. really got his start in Chicago too and I can't imagine that there weren't many others.
Many of us were members of the Chicago chapter of the Recording Academy and I think you could practically say anybody in the record business prior to the late 1960s was joined at the hip to Chicago! Needless to say there were plenty of Chicago labels recording in Detroit and plenty of Detroit musicians and labels recording in Chicago.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 12:13 pm: |
Sue:
Jackie Wilson's "Higher & Higher" was cut in Chicago at Universal Recording. Bruce Swedien was the engineer on the session, Carl Davis produced & Sonny Sanders arranged.
Jamerson, Pistol & Griffith were on the session along with the Andantes on background vocals. In fact, it was Jamerson & Pistol who had a hand in creating the arrangement of "Higher..."(it was originally a midtempo ballad for the Dells that was "found" in a garbage pail by a couple of songwriters who then brought it to Brunswick - long story). Carl & Sonny loved the groove J & P were playing so they went along accordingly.
The Funks have played on so many Brunswick recordings, especially Johnny Griffith (which our friend HW has detailed in another thread..).
Peace,
KevGo
| By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 07:39 pm: |
Great piece Kev
| By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 07:41 pm: |
Kev,
Yeah my memory was right. A Funks thing in Chicago.
| By Friday (65.59.105.183) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 08:16 pm: |
Let's hear some more about this,very interesting.I know I read on one of Babbitt's threads he did alot of sessions in Chicago.
| By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.228.73) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 08:22 pm: |
According to both Jimmy Siracuse and the Book "Before Motown," DETROIT was the home of the independent labels and the major music publishing businesses and United Sound was the FIRST INDEPENDENT RECORDING STUDIO (not label owned) in the US. This was additionally confirmed earlier by Jimmy and Joe Siracuse, Dave Usher and recently by Artie Field. Artie said it was Jimmy who convinced Bill Putnum to go to Chicago before he moved to the coast. There was a close association between United in Detroit and Universal in Chicago in the late 30's according to Artie.
Additionally, Artie informed me that Jimmy owned American Pressings in Owasso, before its sale in the early 1950's.
Detroit also had Vogue Records which operated a Studio (with United's later Chief Engineer, Harvey Dodge) and one of the first vinal pressing plants on 8 mile in the late 40's and early 50's. It was a drastic failure as the vinal 78's would last too long in the jute boxes and re-orders were dropping. The Vogue label had a few local hits in the lae 40's, I'm told.
A side note from Artie is that that same plant was converted to mold toilet seat covers. Thus showing the real value of vinal pressings.
| By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:38 am: |
KevGo,
RE: >
Not the exact story as I heard it.
The song was written by Chess guys and cut (as a slowish dancer) by the Dells, it's included on an album of theirs I have ('There Is'?). Carl Smith, who had a hand in helping compose the song got ill and needed money for hospital bills. The guys at Chess who 'owed him' wouldn't pay out so he took the song across to Brunswick, changed a few words & arranged for it to be cut by Jackie. I also believe that Chess had plans to release the original version as a 45 on the Dells but Jackie's single hit the shops first and stormed straight up the charts.
Don't know who's version is nearest to the truth but both could well be spot-on.
| By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.216) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:51 am: |
Refering to (on this thread):
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 09:53 pm:
My comments:
Archie Levington, who came to Motown around 1966, to head the publicity department, was a really wonderful fellow. If everyone in this world had a personality like Archie, there would be no war.
Archie drew my name in a Christmas gift pool, and he gave me a subscription to Popular Mechanics Magazine. When I thanked him for it, he said: "I just thought that you would remember me as you enjoy a few paragraphs while sitting on the can."
Archie was very happily married, for his/her entire life, to one of America's most wonderful sweethearts: Fran Allison, of Kukla, Fran, and Ollie. This great Chicago live television show was on the network starting about 1949.
I was nine years old. This show was simply wonderful. The puppets were created by Burr Tillstrom, who had fantastic talent. But without Fran Allison, the show would have been nothing. I watched it like a hawk. My Mother loved it.
Those were the days when I was an innocent boy, and I absorbed beautiful, wholesome ideas from a few wonderful masterpieces like Kukla, Fran, and Ollie. When Archie brought his wife by Motown one day, it was, for me, as if he had brought along the President of the United States of America. I will never forget the overwhelming feeling of awe and admiration as I saw, with my own eyes, right in front of me, this beautiful woman who had meant so very much to me when I was a boy.
Another Chicago angle is the fact that Ron Malo, the first "Engineering Department Head" at Motown (the first Nerd Brother,) after he left Berry, went to Chess Records and held down a similar job there for a while.
There was a great studio in Chicago in the late fifties: Ter-Mar. They did a lot of work for Mercury Records in the period when Mercury was really cooking, under the enlightened managment of founder and CEO Irving Green.
There was a great mixer at Ter-Mar, who was sort of the Chicago version of Rudy Van Guilder. I think his name was Malcolm Chissom. He made some fantastic recordings on Mercury for such artists as Josh White, and Big Bill Broonsey.
Another great album was, on Mercury (it was released in stereo, and I have a mint condition pressing
(I don't know how that smile face got there, and I can't seem to get rid of it) "Down to Earth" performed by the Ramsey Lewis Trio. This is one of the very early albums by Lewis, and a fantastic one at that. The overall quality (microphone technique, mixing, distortion levels, naturalness, beautifully cut master lacquer, and virgin vinyl pressing)of my pressing is utterly supberb, considering the fact that it was released only a year after the advent of the stereophonic vinyl LP disc, in 1958.
Seymore Soloman (Vanguard,) who passed away about a year ago, made some fantastic recordings in Chicago in the late 50's. Does anyone remember Odetta?
I love Chicago. I really must say that I feel, deep down, that the activities by record companys in Chicago, during the period from 1945 through 1965, were of vastly more interest to musical connoisseurs then anything that ever went on in Detroit.
| By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 10:00 am: |
Hi Mike,
Re Ron Malo - I knew he worked at Ter-Mar but
your posts have been the first mention I've ever seen of him starting out with Motown.
Odetta's still around - she played a few concerts
in London recently.
I don't know that Ramsey Lewis album but will
keep an eye out for a copy.
You're probably right about Chicago being superior
to Detroit in the forties and fifties but isn't a lot of that due to the fact that Chicago had
better studios because Chicgao was the mid-west
base for major labels like RCA and Columbia.
Those labels had the money to finance better
studios and equipment - an advantage Detroit
didn't have.
| By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.228.73) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:14 am: |
Hello Mike and Dave,
I was unaware that Ron started here and then went to Chess in Chicago. Ron was working with Stax in Memphis when I worked with him while I was at United. He was a very nice guy and we got along well. We ended up discovering some serious discrepencies in the AMPEX 1 inch alignment tapes of the time as were were having level variation problems. We both that 250 nW/M tapes and were finding level problems, so we traded tapes. United's new tape was around 4 dB below his, but it agreed with Artie's and stuff we got in from Mike and other studios too. We settled on a level and used that. He was sold a mis-calibrated tape.
We worked around the problem and it was fun to work with him. He also had great ears.
I heard many Chess stories from Dave Usher, a great jazz producer for Chess and close friend of Joe Siracuse. Perhaps we can get him up here too.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:32 am: |
JSmith:
Roquel "Billy" Davis & Carl Davis are my mentors & friends. This, according to them, is what went down with "Higher & Higher"
Roquel & Raynard Miner wrote "Higher & Higher" at Chess and had cut the song with the Dells. Miner soon discovered after the session that the sheet music & lyrics were stolen from his briefcase.
Soonafter, Jackie's version hits the charts with the credits reading "Carl Smith/Gary Jackson." Roquel confronts Carl Davis when the record hits the Top Ten regarding the publishing.
Roquel was willing to relinquish his writer's share and a percentage of the publishing as long as Raynard is credited as the co-writer. Davis refers Roquel to Nat Tarnopol (who was Brunswick's Vice President at the time - remember the label was still owned by Decca/MCA).
Tarnopol says "no way" to the deal and Roquel (with the help of the Chess Brothers) goes to court, where Carl Smith & Gary Jackson claim that they found the music "in a wastepaper basket at Chess." Nonetheless, the court ruled in favor of Raynard Miner/Roquel Davis/Chevis Music.
The end result - All three men are credited with writing the song, but Raynard Miner has the lion's share of the writing credit (with Roquel getting the lion's share of the publishing). Unichappell & Warner-Tamerlane own the other percentage of the publishing (the result of Tarnopol trying to raise money when Brunswick hit a bad spell in the 1970s).
Regards,
Kevin L. Goins
"KevGo"
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.102) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:44 am: |
Kev,
being a huge fan of the Brunswick Label as well as the other well known Chicago labels,
I love hearing about Carl Davis and Roquel Davis
and the posts you put out.
But as this is a Detroit forum,
do you know of any links that I can log onto
regards the Chicago Scene?
I have lots of material Records etc relating to Carl and Roquel Davis as well as a stack of sounds on Chess/checker/cadet Records,and other Chicago Labels.
Hope you can help,
With thanks,
Mel.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:23 pm: |
Mel:
Let me look into the Chicago sites for you. As for your comment regarding this being a "Detroit Forum" bear in mind these factors:
1) Jackie Wilson, Roquel "Billy" Davis, William "Sonny" Sanders were all from Detroit.
2) While Chicago became a music force very quickly thanks to labels such as Chess, Vee-Jay & Cobra, Detroit sure as hell helped them out in many ways with providing talent and labels to distribute (Anna Records - the home of Barrett Strong's "Money" was distributed by Chess, as was Roquel Davis' Checkmate label).
3) As we mentioned before, the Funk Brothers made many trips to Chicago at the request of Sonny Sanders for many sessions (which I'm trying to anthologize for my own personal collection & curiosity).
That's probably why we have this thread up & running.
Regards,
KevGo
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.86) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 12:48 pm: |
Point taken Kev,
With thanks,
Mel.
| By Friday (209.244.233.144) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 01:00 pm: |
This thread is fascinating!!
| By StingBeeLee (155.139.50.14) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 01:38 pm: |
I wonder if the Funk Brothers also played on Tyrone Davis' "Can I Change My Mind"? It sounds like the Funk Brothers to me, if I am wrong, please don't kill me.
| By Steve L (209.100.86.4) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:12 pm: |
Mel (& then some),
There was an effort last summer(2001)to get a Soul/Blues music museum situated in Chicago. They had a booth at the Blues Fest in Grant Park. They were showing rare clips of soul artists via videotape at the booth. Most of the clips were of great quality & I must have stayed for a few hours. They did have a mailing list & an e-mail list but I didn't get anything from them.
I have the Dells version of Higher & Higher and it's ok, but not great. The lyrics are different and it doesn't drive like the Jackie Wilson (Funk Brothers) version. I'm always amazed at the groove of Higher & Higher because it was likely cut without horns, strings, backing vocals, or Jackie's vocal! There are not many chord changes either.
KevGo - Do you have any idea where Universal Recording was located?(the address) What about Curtom Studios?
-Steve
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.96) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:31 pm: |
SteveL,
Many thanks for that,
I would love to go to Chicago one day,and check out the various places.
Is there anything remembered at the old Chess Buildings?
I once had the pleasure of seeing
Jackie Wilson live at an all-nighter back in 1974/75,and having lots of material by him,was blown away by not only Higher and Higher but lots of his other stuff.
I love and Have Big Boss Line by him,talk about fast!
Ihave stuff by him when he was with the Dominoes.
Say no more,another maestro,sorely missed.
I also have harbour lights by him on a uk disc,with Billy Ward and the Dominoes and Clyde McPhatter,all of them together.
Cheers Steve,
Mel.
Mel.
| By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:38 pm: |
Ed, I'm speaking of the very first generation of indi labels dating from before electrical recording. Most of these had been absorbed by the majors by the time indi labels began starting up in Detroit. All of them needed to have their own studios and their own pressing plants in order to be in the record business.
| By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.121) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:44 pm: |
Refering to (on this thread):
By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.228.73) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:14 pm:
My comments:
I would swear that I made a posting some time back about meeting Ron Malo's Son at Hanna-Barbera, and learning that Ron had passed away.
I ran a SEARCH FORUM, but got nothing. This seemed very improper, so I conducted a careful test. It appears that the SEARCH FORUM function does not include items in the ARCHIVES.
I am shocked to learn this. Without full search access, the material in the archives is religated to a very low level of value. What is the point of going to the trouble of writing fancy postings if one cannot find those postings that are relivant to one's current interest?
If this matter is not cleared up, I see no reason to continue writing for the Forum.
Mike McLean
| By David Meikle (81.98.128.77) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:49 pm: |
As previously stated herein, we welcome anything on the forum that RELATES to Soul Music from any part of the United States.
It is the main site www.soulfuldetroit.com which is 100% Detroit.
| By David Meikle (81.98.128.77) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 03:00 pm: |
Dear Mike
Lowell apologised profusely for the loss of the search function on archives when he transferred the site to the new server.
This has been a major blow to myself in particular as I wanted to utilise a lot of the detail stored therein.
Since opening this web site I have encountered numerous technical problems which surprise me.
Apologies again, but please be realistic.
David
| By David Meikle (81.98.128.77) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 03:13 pm: |
Steve L
Universal was based at 46 East Walton on the near north side.
Curtom had three sites.
The first one was at 8541 South Stony Island Boulevard (far south side).
Then 6212 North Lincoln at Sacramento.
Then down the road at 5915 North Lincoln.
The latter two obviously on the north side.
If you need any more Chicago addresses please let me know.
David
| By Fury13 (12.2.196.17) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 03:38 pm: |
I thought that Universal had its studio in one of the upper floors of the Lyric Opera building.
| By David Meikle (81.98.128.77) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 03:51 pm: |
Fury13
I recall being amazed at seeing 46 East Walton in a tour guide once.
It wouldn't surprise me therefore if you are correct.
That was definitely the address of the Universal Recording Co from 1946 onwards.
| By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 04:19 pm: |
Mike,
It's not too difficult finding stuff in the archives except where a post has little relevance to its thread heading.
Just click on "archives past" or "archives old" and scroll down until you hit a likely thread
heading.
Maybe we should all bear this in mind for the future and start a new thread with a more
appropriate heading when a thread starts going off
at a tangent from its original subject.
I agree it's a problem but it's still easier than
trying to find notes on paper.
| By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.43) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 04:49 pm: |
David,
What does it take to fix this profound problem: money?
If so, how much?
There is such a vast amount of information in the archives, that it just blows my mind to think that anyone would even consider it acceptable to not include them in the search function.
If everyone would chip in a buck or two, perhaps we could raise the money to correct this ghastly situation. I know that I would gladly pay my share to remove this horror.
Without this problem being corrected, I would still use the forum for petty entertainment and chatting, but my incentive to compose long, serious stories would be emasculated to nothing divided by two.
The situation is simply unacceptable, in my judgment. I am sorry to say that because I know how hard you have worked to maintain the forum, and I have never contributed a penny.
As I said above, if there is any way that this problem can be corrected with money, I am willing to send in my fair share.
Respectfully,
Mike McLean
| By David Meikle (81.98.128.77) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 04:58 pm: |
Thanks for your reply Mike.
I honestly know as much about this as you do but I will ask Lowell if he will elaborate on the issue.
Please be assured that I want the best facility possible.
David
| By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.43) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 04:59 pm: |
I dropped in at Universal on Walton in Chicago several times during the early 60's.
One thing that created an overwhelming impression was a room which had a huge table in which was mounted about twenty disc recording lathes. These were small units compared to a big mastering lathe. However, they had 16 inch turntables. I think they were Presto Model 6N machines, but I could be wrong.
Here is a wonderful websight in which one can find a picture of a Model 6N:
http://www.televar.com/grshome/Presto.htm
At any rate, all the machines were very old and weather beaten. I was told that they were used to fill massive orders for transcription dubs during the 40's before the arrival of magnetic tape recording brought the golden age of the Presto Recording Corporation to an end.
Mike McLean
| By RJ Spangler (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 06:03 pm: |
Both Joe Weaver & Johnnie Bassett have told me stories about a 3 day trip to Chicago to record at Chess. Joe sez its was his group, the Blue Notes (w/ Bassett on guitar), Al Kent and MAYBE Bobby "Mummbles" Lewis. Joe is fuzzy about Bobby. Anyway, he is clear that they cut "Lonely Teardrops" as a ballad. You all know about THE version by Jackie Wilson that came out later. Does anyone here know if anything was ever released from those sessions?
-RJ
| By Steve L (209.100.86.4) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 07:02 pm: |
David - Thanks for the studio information! I'm in a band & I believe I recorded a demo at Ramsey Lewis' studio from the 1970's. (This was in 1999.)
The studio was in an very large brick garage & you could only access it from the alley. Great recording space! I think it's torn down as of a year ago! It's was on a prime area of real estate.
Mel - Chess Records/Studio is still there, however the museum is open very sporadically. I've tried to go several times & have never been there when it was open. When I do go, I'll give you a review.
-Steve
| By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.111) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 07:36 pm: |
Refering to (on this thread):
By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 10:00 pm:
My comments:
Yes, the late Ron Malo was Berry Gordy Jr.'s first technical man. I never met him, but I met his son about seven years ago. As I understand it, Ron needed more compinsation then Berry could afford at the time, so he moved on to Chicago and Chess Records.
I am going to have to look into the recordings of Odetta. She sure made some good ones back in the late 50's. There is no reason why I shouldn't hit pay dirt. Another singer that I like is Loreena McKennitt. She has a CD called "The Mask and the Mirror" (Warner Bros. 9 45420-2) that is a real lulu!
I have the Ramsey Lewis "Down To Earth" album sitting on my desk right now. It is in absolutly mint condition, including the jacket! The record number is Mercury SR 60213 (black vinyl stereo LP).
I purchased this disc in 1965, while recording a Motortown Review remote at the Brooklyn Fox Theatre on Flatbush Avenue. There was a very hip record shop down the street, and I bought a whole bunch of stuff there while on that remote.
According to the jacket, it was recorded at Ter-Mar Studios in Chicago Nov. 6 and Dec. 4, 1958. Ramsey Lewis, piano; El Dee Young, bass; and Red Holt, drums. The recording engineer was Malcolm Chisholm.
Regarding your point about better studios because of the big money of the major labels:
This is most likly so, but I was refering to the music scene, as opposed to the technical quality of the studios. In my opinion, the music scene in Chicago, during that period (1945-65) was more natural and unspoiled by excessive commercialization.
To use an analogy based on high priced automobiles: During the fifties, Cadillac sold a lot more cars then Jaguar, and one reason for this was that they loaded them up with chrome, fins, and gadgets. To me, the old Chicago music scene was more like a Jaguar, and the later Motown music scene was more like a Cadillac.
Needless to say, I prefer the design of a Jaguar to that of a Cadillac, even if it was impossible to keep one running long enough for a weekend trip to the country. Joseph Lucas was the Prince of Darkness. (Lucas was the Delco-Remy [or Autolite] of England during the 50's: They made the electrical equipment used on English cars, and it was simply horrible!)
Mike McLean
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 08:55 pm: |
Mike you are a treasure! I'm picturing you ducking out of the Motortown Revue to buy a good Ramsey Lewis album.
Surely you can't compare the work of Norman Whitfield, which was later Motown, to a gunked up Cadillac? Carry on though, I like reading if I don't agree with you musically ...
| By thecount (64.53.143.173) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:42 pm: |
Mike,I have about 50 or more 16 inch acetates,as your mentioning of the 16 inch turn tables.
#2 Also need your opinion on whether junk or good,and what to do with this.Its all ZAPCO equiptment,reciever,graphic equalizer,sound board,reel to reel(about 100 lbs.)and some other s--t I have no idea what its for,all serial #'s have been removed and grinded off,8 ZAPCO MIKES,and 5 sure mikes.I'am thinking of s--t canning it all except for the mikes.
#3 best way to kleen acetates or vinyl is a damp diaper and a spot of shaving cream,then wipe clean with warm damp detail cloth,and dry with dry detail cloth.I play a lot of vinyl and they sound supberb and come out great when I record them to cd.Thanx Mike."COUNT"
| By Caleb (65.59.97.223) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:52 pm: |
This is a hot thread!
| By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 10:44 pm: |
RJ
Al Kent told me (this September) the story about him recording "Lonely Teardrops"... "years" before Jackie Wilson did. He said that he went to Chicago with Berry Gordy and a bunch of guys (in 3 cars).
He seemed sure that the song was released - Does anyone know for sure?
Graham
| By Lowell (165.247.230.11) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:12 am: |
Mike, I am working on a search solution. Unfortunately the forum's internal search got messed up in our recent server move, a move that was necessary for the long term continuity and growth of this site. What I think may work is a site wide search engine meaning it will search the web pages as well as the forum. I will be attempting a solution soon. Wish me luck.
For now the forum search will only search posts added since the move. As for costs, any donations to the site, click SUPPORT US for our begging bowl, is always appreciated. There are lots of ongoing costs. Thanks again to those of you who have supported us with your donations.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.80) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:17 am: |
SteveL
I would appreciate that mate,
Mel.
| By M.McLeanTech (66.218.60.31) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:10 am: |
Lowell,
I am sending a check (#593) in the amount of $50., tomorrow, to:
Lowell Boileau
@ Detroit
24105 Twin Valley
Farmington, MI 48336
USA
It is my sincere hope that others who love the forum will follow my example and try to assist you in solving the profound problem of restoring full search access to the entire history of the forum.
I might add that I am in awe of the high standard that you have set (with the one exception of this horror of no search for the archives)in your function as webmaster. You are in a class by yourself.
I might add that I love to look at your fine quality "Detroit Ruins" websight, from time to time. I was thrilled by your picture of the Great Lakes Theatre, on Grand River Avenue near Lauder Avenue.
When I was eight, I used to get a dime from my Mom, and walk over from our home to the Great Lakes Theatre for a Saturday Matanay (spelling? @#$%^&*!).
Typically, they ran ten cartoons, along with a Roy Rogers and a Hopalong Cassiday movie. Several of the cartoons were MGM "Tom and Jerry" items, which were directed by William Hanna and Joe Barbera. They had created these cartoon characters in 1939.
Tomorrow, I am going to go to work. It will be my option when I get there to take the elevator to the third floor and walk to Joe Barbara's office and speak with him.
Please try to fix this search problem.
Sincerely, and with love,
Mike McLean
PS: That shot of the Cunningnams Drug Store on the Northwest corner of Greenfield and Grand River was a thrill. It was in that store that I went up, with Richard Cogger (who worked at Motown,) and we managed to con the salesman into selling us pipes, and pipe tobacco, so we could, as discribed in one of Mark Twain's books, do our bit, at age 14: First smoke: "I've lost my knife."
This is the classic scene where the two boys smoke tobacco for the first time, and get sick. Too embarrased to admit it, they go off to look for the (imaginary) lost knife, so they can be comfortable to throw up.
I have completed the check. It is in the envelope. All I have to do is drop it in the mail tomorrow.
Let's all send something to help get this matter corrected!!
| By David Meikle (213.122.70.32) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:49 am: |
Thanks Mike.
Regarding Lowell's Ruins site checkout his latest webisode on 8 Mile (very topical story as a result of the movie - but with sad overtones on the realities of intolerence).
Watch out for one of his stunning paintings early in the story.
Harry Dhesi and myself invariably find ourselves driving up and down 8 mile, so it brings strong vibes.
http://detroityes.com/index.html
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 10:54 am: |
StingBeeLee:
Let me look into Tyrone's "Can I Change My Mind." I was always under the impression that Willie Henderson used Chicago-based musicians on the recording.
As for the "Lonely Teardrops" tale, Gordy always envisioned the song in the form of a ballad and was mortified when Jackie Wilson recorded it uptempo (Roquel Davis recalled Berry bursting into tears & being upset over the issue). FYI - Jackie did record "LT" as a ballad in late 1963 for his "Spotlight On Jackie Wilson" LP.
Regards,
KevGo
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.27) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 07:23 am: |
Kev,
around 1977 I was at an all-nighter and on live that night was The Chicago Soul Revue,
and from my scrambled brain cells recall seeing a fantastic performance from L.J.Reynolds(the superb Girl you know your magic put a spell on me,which he included)and I think Barbara Pennington?maybe Evelyn Thomas,but very unsure about her.
Anyway I also remember a Guitarist on back up who was awesome,but things regards the name of the revue and artists performing are very sketchy,
but I do remember L.J.Reynold's.
Does any of this ring any bell's with you kev,and if so,was there any Detroit connection at all.
With thanks,
MEL.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.27) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 07:29 am: |
Kev,
I meant L.J.Johnson and the all-nighter was in 1976.
I told you my head was scrambled.
Cheers,
MEL.
| By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 08:51 am: |
MEL,
I think you are refering to Danny Leake.
He was the guy behind the UK only album (& 45 "You keep coming back') by 100% Pure Poison. A track off the album ("Windy C") has been sampled a bit and this fact helped in recently getting the LP re-released here by Soul Brother Records.
Danny Leake was from Chicago, played guitar and produced the 100% Pure Poison album. He then went on to work with Ian Levine later in the 70s, and is now a well respected music engineer having worked with Janet Jackson and Stevie Wonder, etc.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.36) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 09:00 am: |
JSmith,
many thank's for that magical piece of
info.I recall Levine having a big part on the artists as I have a Philips copy of the L.J.Johnson track that I mentioned above.
And Levines name is on there,also I found other relevent info,but nothing like what you have just told me.
Absolutly appreciated,
Mel.
| By thecount (64.53.143.173) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 09:04 am: |
Hey Caleb,I know that was a HOT thread,even Ray Charles could see that.But being there was no responding from anyone or who I was asking advice from,It's in the dumpster."COUNT"
| By Common (209.2.55.137) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 09:40 am: |
Hello everyone,
Jose Felicano, who was signed to Motown in the early 80's, actually did a nice, ballad-type version of "Lonely Teardrops". I'm not sure but I think this version was produced by BG himself.
Peace!
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.5) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 10:49 am: |
Count and Caleb,
I to was getting into that
hot thread,
now its gone,
I to have a lot of Acetates and a few 16inch Acetates like yourself count.
Well,at least I know the best way of cleaning them proper.
Thanks,
MEL.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 10:57 am: |
Common:
The Jose Feliciano LP on Motown you're referring to was produced by BG and did contain "Lonely Teardrops" and (I think) "I Wanna Be Where You Are" (done by Michael Jackson first in late 1971)
KevGo
| By Keith Hughes (195.92.67.74) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:29 am: |
Way back when in this thread, someone mentioned that Anna Records, "home" of Barrett Strong's "Money", was distributed by Chess.
I heard a story not too long ago that "Money" practically bankrupted Anna: the usual problem, distributors wouldn't pay until there was a follow-up hit, and pressing plants wouldn't press any more records for the company till they got paid ... so Anna got stuck.
Yet there were at least a dozen or more singles after "Money" on the label, so if that story's true, someone must have bailed them out.
Anyone know any more about this?
Keith
| By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:58 am: |
COMMON;...I DID NOT KNOW THAT JOSE FELICIANO WAS EVER SIGNED TO MOTOWN. WHAT MAKES THAT SO INTERESTING IS HIS VERBAL DUEL WITH MARVIN GAYE GOING BACK TO THE "68" WORLD SERIES WHEN THEY BOTH SANG THE NATIONAL ANTHEM AT THE GAMES IN DETROIT...MARVIN SANG IT IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY, WHILE JOSE...FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER AT A MAJOR TELEVISED NATIONAL SPORTING EVENT DID IT IN A TOTALLY NON-TRADITIONAL AND CONTRIVERSIAL MANNER ACCOMPANIED BY HIS GUITAR. MARVIN WAS AMONG THE FIRST TO GO AFTER JOSE FOR HIS PERFORMANCE, AND THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS OF TELEVISED VOCAL DUELS WITH MARVIN AND JOSE SERIOUSLY DEBATING WHO HAD MORE SOUL. IT GOT PRETTY HOT AND HEAVY FOR A WHILE. NOW OF COURSE...IT'S NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO ATTEND A SPORTING EVENT AND HEAR THE NATIONAL ANTHEM SUNG IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY...AND THERE IS NOT REALLY A WHOLE LOT THT YOU CAN DO WITH THAT MOST DIFFICULT MELODY...STU
| By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:04 am: |
Keith,
that'a a very good question. Anyone have an answer to that one?
Stu,
It all seems so silly now regarding the controversy over Jose's performance of the Anthem. I'm sure those that complained the loudest never sang the song anyway.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:18 am: |
Stu & Ralph:
I was very young when the hoopla over Jose Feliciano's performance of the Anthem was a hot topic. I feel that those who bitched about it couldn't deal with such freedom of expression. The sad thing is that the controversy caused Jose so much grief (record sales fell, some radio stations wouldn't give him airplay...)even though his record label (RCA) stood by him. Isn't it ironic that before his death Marvin performed a very sexy version of the Anthem at the All-Star Game and HIS version is one of the most requested & popular renditions of the Anthem, whereas Jose's version (which was soulful as well)is almost forgotten.
Regards,
Kevin Goins - "KevGo"
| By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:41 am: |
RALPH & KEVGO; BELIEVE IT OR NOT...I WAS AT GAME FIVE IN "68" WHEN THE CONTRIVERSEY FLARED...ALTHOUGH ABOUT A HALF A MILLION OTHER PEOPLE CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THAT SERIES CHANGING GAME...I ACTUALLY WAS. AS MY COUSIN AND I WALKED THROUGH THE TUNNEL INTO THE LOWER SEATING AREA...JOSE WAS JUST STARTING TO SING. IT WAS REALLY WEIRD! PEOPLE STARTED LOOKING AROUND AT EACH OTHER WITH THIS LOOK OF BEWILDERMENT ON THEIR FACES. I WAS WALKING PAST THE "OL ANNOUNCER" VAN PATRICK WHO WAS SITTING IN THE FRONT BOX SEATS ON THE FIRST BASE SIDE. VAN WAS LOOKING AROUND AND HOLDING HIS NOSE AS THE BOOING STARTED THROUGHOUT THE STADIUM. I MUST ADMIT, THAT I THOUGHT AT THE TIME THAT IT WAS A BIT INAPPROPRIATE...BUT WHAT JOSE DID WAS MILD IN COMPARISON TO SOME OF THE VERSIONS THAT I HAVE HEARD SINCE. TRUE...MARVIN FIRED OFF THE FIRST SHOT (PLEASE FORGIVE THE EXPRESSION)...BUT JOSE SHOT RIGHT BACK ACCUSING MARVIN OF HAVING NO SOUL...AN UNWISE MOVE IN DETROIT AT THE TIME. BESIDES, THE FACT THAT JOSE WAS PUERTO RICAN ALSO HAD SOME QUESTIONING HIS RIGHT TO TAKE SUCH LIBERTIES WITH THAT PARTICULAR SONG. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF JOSE AND MARVIN EVER MADE AMENDS OVER THE INCIDENT???,,,STU
| By Rich (12.90.26.239) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:20 pm: |
Philly - Detroit - Chicago connection
The late-great Tiki Fulwood!!! Drummed at the Uptown in North Philly in '67, got scooped up by Eddie Hazel & Billy Bass, as those three formed Funkadelic in Detroit in '68. Tiki drummed for Tyrone Davis in '69. I've been told Tiki drummed on some of the sessions for some of Ty's biggest hits, around '68 - '70, anybody (KevGo) know for sure. I don't know if Eli gets 'round here too much these days but Bobby if you do, I know you and Tiki knew each other well ... what section of town was he from?
Who did a better California Dreamin ... Jose Feliciano or Eddie Hazel, sure as you're born you know it ain't the mamas' papas.
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:24 pm: |
RICH; WHATS WRONG WITH THE MAMAS AND PAPAS???...AND YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY!!!...IF MAMA CASS HAD ONLY GIVEN THAT CHICKEN SANDWICH TO KAREN CARPENTER...THEY'D BOTH STILL BE///////OH NEVER MIND!!!...STU
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:29 pm: |
PS TO RICH;...BY THE WAY...WE ALL KNOW THAT WES MONTGOMERY DID THE BEST RENDITION OF "CALIFORNIA DREAMIN"...WITHOUT THE WORDS HOWEVER!!!...STU
| By Rich (12.90.26.239) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:48 pm: |
Sorry folks one more thing,
Marvin Gaye transformed the National Anthem at the '84 NBA All-Star game, he made it everybody's song, much the same way Brother Ray reached us all with "America the Beautiful". Dr J who won the MVP said after the game, that the award should have gone to Marvin. Can I get an AMEN?
I'm not familiar with Jose Feliciano's version of the Anthem or the controversy, but I recently watched an old video tape of Jose groovin "Chico and the Man" on Soul Train - and there was no controversy there.
I probably shouldn't say it but there's typically one reason some folks don't appreciate an artist of color doing their own interpretation of the nation anthem ...
Rich K
| By Rich (12.90.26.239) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:53 pm: |
LOL - I haven't heard it Stu - I'm a little embarrassed to say I'm not all that familiar with Wes Montgomery. I do know that he was the guitarist who's style inspired Claydes E.X. Smith of Kool & the Gang. Anyhow with a name like yours I know I've got a easy convert. If you can listen to Billy Bass Nelson funkin the ever-lovin daylight outta Eddie Hazel's version you just might change you mind.
Peace
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:13 pm: |
RICH; THANKS FOR THE TIP. I'LL TRY TO CHECK IT OUT. ONCE AGAIN...IS THAT BILLY BASS NELSON...OR BILLY BOB THORNTON???...BY THE WAY...WES MONTGOMERY SPECIALIZED IN PLAYING OCTAVES, AND INFLUENCED MANY OF THE GREAT GUITAR PLAYERS TO COME ALONG SINCE...BOTH JAZZ, R&B, AND ROCK...STU
| By ErikT.O. (64.228.108.74) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:25 pm: |
Hey, Rich- My 'California Dreaming' nominations? Baby Huey & Alton Ellis! Face off! Winner takes on Wes Montgomery's version! /Tying together Wes Montgomery, Chicago Soul (Baby Huey) & California Dreaming...
| By Rich (12.90.16.227) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:30 pm: |
LOL Erik - yeah, lets run it like ESPN's Around the Horn. I love my Baby Huey CD but I'm afraid Cali Dreamin' gets the skip button, so I can get to my favorite cut - Running. That's a tune that when it came out everybody musta been thinkin' they could do it better. Again I must declare my ignorance ... I'm unfamiliar with Alton Ellis.
Peace
| By Mark Speck (64.159.101.118) on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:47 pm: |
Jose's version of the National Anthem wasn't the only controversial version from that period. Don't forget that many people took offense to Jimi Hendrix's instrumental version as well.
At least both of those versions had musical merit, unlike the dreadful rendition that Roseanne did several years ago. THAT one was disrespectful!
Best,
Mark
| By ErikT.O. (64.228.114.81) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 04:04 pm: |
Hi Rich, I was sort of cheating (or stretching the forum boundaries!) when dropping the name Alton Ellis. He is a roots reggae singer, a great one at that... he's still recording & playing live, I've seen him & he still puts on an excellent show. He often tours with fellow reggae legends John Holt & Ken Boothe. These guys covered loads of soul tunes in the 60's & 70's, many Impressions & Temptations tunes in particular have been covered inna reggae stylee. (Cloud 9, Little Child Running Wild, Get Ready, Papa Was A Rolling Stone, I could swear Ball Of Confusion, others... )
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 12:11 pm: |
Rich:
John Leslie "Wes" Montgomery was next to Charlie Christian & Django Reinhardt one of Jazz's most influential guitarists. He was known for his warm octaves and solid "single line" solos but most importantly - he plucked the strings with only this right thumb, giving the notes a thick yet whole sound. Unfortuanately, the heavy touring and recording took its toll on him and he died of a massive heart attack in 1968 (he was in his early 40s).
Recommended listening - recordings on the Riverside label (early straight-ahead jazz);the Verve LPs "Movin' Wes" (big band jazz arranged by Johnny Pate),"Goin'Out Of My Head" (first "crossover " hit LP arranged by Oliver "The Monster" Nelson),"Tequila" (sensual Latin-tinged jazz) & "The Dynamic Duo" (duet LP with organist Jimmy Smith);
A&M/CTI Records - "A Day In The Life" (Don Sebezky arrangements, more Pop than Jazz, "Windy" became his biggest hit single).
Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 12:58 pm: |
KEVGO & RICH: MY FAVORITE WES MONTGOMERY CUT WOULD HAVE TO BE "BUMPIN ON SUNSET"...NICE SOFT JAZZ GROOVE...STU
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 01:21 pm: |
Stu:
"Bumpin' On Sunset" is from one of my favorite Wes LPs "Tequila". The entire album has a very nice soft jazz groove..sexy and classy. Claus Ogerman did the arrangements. Great work.
Kevin Goins - "KevGo"
| By Rich (12.90.26.59) on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 03:45 pm: |
Much Appreciated Stu & Kev.
Tequila might be a good start. I've got to find the groove and work my way backwards. From The Blackbyrds I got to Donald Byrd's Wind Parade from there to DB's Black Byrd & then to Ethiopian Knights and so on. "Jungle Boogie" got me to "Dujii" (The B- Side) which got me to Freddie Hubbard's Straight Life and on backwards. Again from Kool & the Gang's "Rhyme Tyme People" or "Street Corner Symphony" I could easily get Pharoah Sanders "The Creator Has a Master Plan", which got me to 'Trane's "A Love Supreme" which opened my ears to a lot of his musuic. Jaco to Weather Report, Weather Report to Miles Davis' "In Silent Way" and from there to the doors to his back catalog. Same with P-Funk & Bernie Worrell back to Sun Ra. From the end to the beginning - LOL
Rich
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.70) on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 03:48 pm: |
Hey Stu,
You like
TEQUILA
Dont you!
Mel(hic)
| By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 04:16 pm: |
RICH; IT CERTAINLY LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE OFF TO A GOOD START. HOPE YOU ENJOY SOME CLASSIC WES...MEL..."PATRON" IS WHERE IT'S AT. BY THE WAY...HOW DOES THAT LITTLE WORM SURVIVE IN THAT BOTTLE???IS THAT WHAT THEY MEAN BY "LITTLE GLOW WORM"???...STU
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.39) on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 04:19 pm: |
Does anyone know about a group with chicago/Detroit connections known or were known as
PUZZLE,
around 1973 I heard of this group who had the following in there line-up.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Spokesman was Larry Klimas.
Keyboards was Joey Spinazola.
Drums was John Livigni also on vocals.
All the above also accomplished writers and arrangers.
Lead guitar was Bobby Villalobos.
Bass guitar was Tony Siciliana.
Both vocalists also.
Trumpet players were Ralf Ricket and Michael Connel.Ralf was from West Germany and played with several big bands including
The Jimmy Dorsey Band.
I heard they did an album for Motown which was released called I think
Turning on to.......Puzzle,
but this may be wrong.
The Last I Heard anything about them was that they moved to L.A.
mel.
| By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 12:27 pm: |
LET ME ADD A PENNIES WORTH AN SAY THAT THE ICEMAN HIMSELF RECORDED FOR MOTOWN IN THE LATE SEVENTIES DOING SOME THINGS WITH MS THELMA HOUSTON AS WELL AS SOLO EFFORTS.
| By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 06:43 pm: |
I'm looking for the recording by THE AMAZERS. "Without A Warning" (Lenny Brown) "It's You For Me" (Napoleon Crayton)(Arr.by J. Pate, Produced by Curtis Mayfield.) It was recorded on the "Thomas Record" label. 45-1638 BMI, TM-14516-7 SP.
My 45 is cracked on the end, but I refuse to get rid of it. Can anyone tell me where I can find it?
Sis
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.27) on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 11:30 pm: |
Sis,
THE Amazers
Without a warning
Magic record(andthensome).
MEL.
| By dvdmike (12.84.13.209) on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 07:11 pm: |
I need to make a correction. Jackie Wilson's ("Your Love Keeps Lifting Me) Higher & Higher" was not cut at Universal. The session was actually done at Columbia Recording which was located in the CBS Building at 630 N. McClurg Ct. on the Near North side. The CBS affiliated WBBM TV & radio stations were and still are located there. The date was July 6, 1967 and the Funk Brothers and the Andantes were on the date. I remember some people talking about it some years ago.
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 08:27 pm: |
Thanks for the info Mike.
| By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.97.7) on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 09:35 pm: |
Sis, I've got an extra copy of Without a Warning that you can have. E-mail me at jmoorehous@aol.com.
| By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 10:23 pm: |
OMG - JOE - You have mail. :o) Thank you so much. You have made my day.
Sis
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:52 am: |
dvdmike:
I checked with Carl Davis (the producer of "Higher & Higher"). He did cut the song at the CBS Recording Studios at North McClurg. After he left Okeh Records in 1966, Carl used this studio to cut most of Brunswick's releases ("Whispers [Getting Louder]", "Since You Showed Me How To Be Happy") until the label went independent in 1970. After that, they used Universal Recording for a brief spell until the label built a 24-track studio in the building where Vee-Jay Records once stood.
Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By wk (12.27.0.105) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:21 pm: |
So the first message of this thread mentioned Jack Ashford's production of the Metros for RCA. Does anyone know the story with this group?
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.94) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 01:27 pm: |
Now theres a group that I could talk about all day,the sounds I have by them are all superb.
THE METROS.
(Metro Mel)
| By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 03:39 pm: |
"Sweetest One" is a really nice tune. I have the RCA lp I picked up in a trade ca. 1970. Is this fairly rare? I'd also be curious to know what musicians were used on this project.
Steve K.
| By dvdmike (12.84.11.152) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 06:40 pm: |
Yeah, KevGo
There was a lot of activity here in Chicago during that time. Universal, Columbia, RCA, P.S., Ter-Mar, Stereo-Sonic and occasionally, Sound Market. Brunswick's studio didn't open until sometime in the early '70s. The building at 1449 S. Michigan Ave. (on the famed Record Row) was used by Brunswick after Vee-Jay went bamkrupt in 1966. The studio was on the second floor, all the way in the back. The building still stands, but the studio closed in the early '80s. Universal, which had a lot of locations since Bill Putnam & Bernie Clapper opened it in 1946, closed up shop in the early '90s, By that time they had moved from the location at 46 E. Walton where they had been since the '50s to the penthouse of an office building at 32 W. Randolph in the Loop. P.S. closed it's doors in the late '80s and most of the other studios of the day in the 1970s & '80s. Chicago Recording Co. (CRC) on Fairbanks & Ohio is still in business, as are The Tone Zone on the Near North side, just around the corner from the Cabrini-Green housing projects and Streeterville on Grand Ave, just a few doors east of N. Michigan Ave. on the Magnificent Mile.
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 10:31 pm: |
DVD Mike,
You sound like you know what you're talking about, which is welcome here.
| By Kip Brown (63.175.212.147) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:00 pm: |
There is a single by Geraldine Hunt "Two Can Live Cheaper Than One" on the Bombay label that seems to be a Detroit/Chicago hybrid. Geraldine was from Chicago, as was the label, however the two sides on this record were produced by Mike Hanks! The co-producer is Bob Catron who also wrote the tunes. While the tune is reminiscent of "Monkey Time" by Major Lance, there are some Detroit-ish touches to it as well! Just adding my two cents!
Kip Brown
| By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:43 pm: |
Do you think that Bob Craton was Lee Rogers? Wasn't Lee's real name Roger Craton?
Graham
| By wk (12.27.0.105) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 11:14 am: |
Now I do think the Metros were great, but I also think that they sound an awful lot like the Four Tops. Especially the lead. I'm pretty sure they were from Detroit, mostly because they recorded there in 1970 for a single that was shelved until a few years back. I wouldn't mind knowing who played on the RCA session myself. My fave cut is "Since I Found My Baby".
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 11:55 am: |
dvdmike:
CRC does a ton of biz in Chicago and so cool to see that folks such as Tom Tom 84 (Tom Washington), Roy Hytower, Carl Davis, Willie Henderson, George "Paco" Patterson and Sonny Sanders are still producing and creating great music. I was in Chicago in late September and everyone I mentioned was busy on some recording project. Do you think it's possible for a record label to start up again in Chicago? That's something I'm considering for the future.
Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Bob Olhsson (68.32.96.67) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 01:16 pm: |
Kevin,
I think it's absolutely the best opportunity since the late 1940s to start a label.
If the MIDI revolution has crippled the musician scene too much in Chicago, send those producers down here to Nashville for some genuine funk! We've got Bob Babbitt, Ed Greene, Reggie Young and Wayne Jackson. I'll even drive Jack Ashford in from Memphis myself! It's a dream team that has never been available in the same town before. Studio time is also available here at utterly amazing prices compared to anywhere else in the world. If you need material, the writer scene is unparalleled.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 03:44 pm: |
Bob:
Thanks for the kind words. Being headquartered in New York City for the past twelve years (working in record retail and for almost a half-dozen labels), I've seen so much great talent either become unnoticed, disenchanted & disbanded or - when they do get signed - their sound is sacrificed to the marketing & technology monsters. I've also noticed that a sizeable audience has been ignored because of their age (28-54) and because it's easier for a label to market (or sucker) the youth. Yet - get this -adults buy more music than the kiddies in the genres of R&B, country, pop, gospel & jazz.
With CDs being much cheaper to manufacture and digital technology at our hands, I plan on using both to create music using real musicians and vocalists who can really SING - no "processed cheese" allowed. The technology will be there but it won't dominate the creativity.
I'm starting off with two singles from a contemporary jazz group called the Walker Project (released to radio & independent retail) to create a buzz (released in January & March). Then the album (hopefully) will be ready by spring. Since I'm going into pocket with this venture, the music will take some time to be completed unless I find someone who wants to invest in this venture.
I'll keep you & everyone posted.
Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By dvdmike (12.84.11.215) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 04:26 pm: |
Kev Go, I know all of the people you mentioned. Tom Tom is one of my best friends. I first met Roy Hytower in 1989 when he played the lead in the "Jerry Butler Story" at the Black Ensemble Theatre. I haven't talked to Willie for a while, but I'm sure he's doing well. Paco did a lot of work for the Black Ensemble as well, then began teaching in the public school system. As for a label, who knows? It could happen. You know, R. Kelly produced Michael Jackson's "You Are Not Alone" at CRC. In the past, artists such as Jerry Butler, Smokey Robinson and Dee Dee Sharp recorded there as well.
| By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 04:40 pm: |
Hey Kev,
Best of luck with this project. You know that the forum is behind you pal. Do keep us posted.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.69) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 04:45 pm: |
please keep us all posted Kev.
Mel.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 05:31 pm: |
Thanks, folks. It's good people like all of you that keep me motivated.
Peace,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.22) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:57 am: |
Kip
Geraldine was also on
Roulette,Checker,Katron and ABC Records.
great singer.
MEL.
| By dvdmike (65.208.234.61) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 07:10 am: |
The Miracles cut some tihngs such as ("You Can't Let The Boy Overpower) The Man In You" and "Would I Love You" in Chicago. I believe "The Man In You" was done at RCA, I'm not sure which studio was used for "Would I Love You". Riley Hampton might have been the arranger on at least one of those songs.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:01 am: |
dvdmike:
Riley Hampton also arranged "I'll Try Something New" for the Miracles and was recently remixed to stereo for the most recent anthology ("Ooh Baby Baby - The Anthology"). From the sounds of the song, it could've been done at RCA as well but who knows? Next time I speak to HW (Harry Weinger) at Motown/Universal, I'll ask him.
Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:27 am: |
Graham,
Bob Catron is not Lee Rogers.
Catron was born in Memphis (August 28,1934) -
majored in music at college - played saxophone in the Beale Streeters in the early fifties with
Johnny Ace, Roscoe Gordon and Bobby Bland.
Moved to Chicago around 1960. Became a partner in
a the Nike and Cool labels with Charles Colbert and Doc Oliver. Left Nike / Cool in '62 to become
A&R man / producer for the Witch / Cortland labels. Returned to Memphis around '64 when those
labels closed down. Started a record distributorship and ran a chain of record stores.
He occasionally returned to arranging / producing
in the late sixties - Calvin Leavy's "Cummins
Prison Farm" on Blue Fox was one of his more
successful dics.
Thanks to Robert Pruter's "Chicago Soul" for the
background info.
Here's another Geraldine Hunt disc with Detroit
connections
"I Let Myself Go" (Garrett,Hamilton,Hanks,Bell)
"I Wish I Had Listened"( same)
Originally on Katron 828 then picked up for national release on Checker 1028 (1963)
I have absolutely no idea why the label's spelled
Katron instead of Catron.
| By Flynny (213.123.47.208) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:19 pm: |
Geraldine Hunt's ILMG reminds me of Monique's "If you love me" on Maurci...another backing track that originated in Detroit (Topper - Tobi Lark's "Challenge my love"), but somehow ended up on a Chicago label too...as did the flipside, "Never let me go" (Topper - Dottie & Millie "Nothing in this World").
Anyone know any details about Monique?
| By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:26 pm: |
I thought I knew the name "Catron" from credits on
some old Stax records - the guy I was thinking of
was Randle Catron presumably a relative of Robert
L. (Bob) Catron. Randle has a dozen or so songs
published by East Memphis, a Stax subsidiary, most
of them co-written by Deanie Parker. One of them
gives the co-writer credit as Willia Dean Catron
so presumably Randle Catron and Deanie Parker
were husband and wife.
Another bit of the jigsaw puzzle ......
| By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:27 pm: |
I recently saw a Blue Rock compilation on a Web site and noticed some "Detroit" things, such as Johnnie Mae Matthews' two 45s. Does anyone have this 2 CD set - and if so - how good/detailed are the booklet notes?
TIA, Graham
| By David Meikle (213.122.189.80) on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 05:38 am: |
I have this cd Graham.
Will have a look tonight and let you know.
David
| By dvdmike (12.84.13.220) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 05:35 pm: |
Speaking of Jackie Wilson, Carl Davis and Sonny Sanders produced Jackie's last LP, "Nobody But Me" at United Sound in Detroit. David Van dePitte wrote the charts. Also, the play, "My Heart Is Crying: The Jackie Wilson Story" is going on a national tour beginning in January eventually making it to the Apollo in New York. The tour kicks off January 20 at the Regal Theater in Chicago. Chester Gregory portrays Jackie. The show has gotten some excellent reviews since it premiered last year here in Chicago. I don't know the schedule, but look out for it and check it out if you get a chance to. Great play.
| By Steve L (209.100.86.4) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 06:12 pm: |
DVDMIKE,
I saw the Jackie Wilson Story 3 times. Chester Gregory is quite a performer!
-Steve
| By Sue (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 07:44 pm: |
fyi Deanie Parker is the director of the soon-to-open Stax Museum of American Soul down in Memphis ...she's the one who put it all together.
| By dvdmike (12.84.10.195) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 08:12 pm: |
I saw Bobby Eli's post on the passing of many Philly legends and other posts on Detroit's fallen heroes. Chicago throughout the years has also lost some legends including Phil Upchurch, Floyd Morris, Barbara Acklin, Master Henry Gibson, Creadel "Red" Jones (Chi-Lites), Bunky Sheppard, Sollie McElroy (Flamingos), Johnny Funches (Dells), Marvin Yancy, Major Lance, Al Duncan, Willie Dixon, Muddy Waters, Jimmy Rogers, Junior Wells, Al Benson, Ewart Abner, Charles Stepney, Minnie Riperton, Calvin Carter, Jimmy Bracken, Vivian Bracken, Harold Burrage, Billy Stewart, Betty Everett, Jimmy Reed, Sam Cooke, Granny White and a host of others.
| By dvdmike (12.84.10.195) on Saturday, December 21, 2002 - 11:39 pm: |
KevGo,
I was told you were the man to ask. Would you know of a way to find a complete Jackie Wilson New York sessionography? I know his early sessions were done at Pythian Temple, but after that I don't know, maybe Bell Sound? A&R? Decca?
Michel Ruppli's Decca discography lists the recording dates and the cities but not the studios. From my own personal research, I discovered the Chicago dates were at Columbia, Universal, Sound Market & Brunswick, the Detroit dates at United Sound and the Hollywood sessions at United/Western. Could you help?
| By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 12:19 pm: |
Kev,
I'll second that !
I'd really like to know if there's much unreleased Jackie material in the Brunswick
vaults - especially if there are any unissued tracks from the mid-late sixties.
A sessionography must exist somewhere as it's
referred to in the booklet notes to those UK
CD's issued by Demon.
| By dvdmike (12.84.8.158) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 01:11 pm: |
According to Michel Ruppli's Decca sessionography, there are some Jackie Wilson recordings that to this day have never been released. Not a hell of a lot of stuff, I'm not even sure if there's even enough to fill a CD. There were outtakes, songs that were recorded more than once, i.e. "The Way I Am" was cut a couple of times but only one version has ever been released. I found copies in the Harold Washington Library in downtown Chicago. Check the main branch of your local public library to see if it's there. Like I said before, the sessionography lists the songs, the master numbers, running times, dates, cities and in some cases, the orchestra leaders, but not the individual studios.
| By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 04:23 pm: |
Wasn't the Miracles' first record (and maybe the first Berry Gordy-produced record) "Got A Job" originally released on Chess? Now there's a Detroit-Chicago connection!
- Gary Rosen
| By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 10:41 pm: |
Gary,
Licensed to Chess ...BG would license records to UA or Chess until he was able to handle distribution himself.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:30 pm: |
dvdmike:
Your question comes at the right time. I'm currently working with Brunswick on a Jackie Wilson Anthology from his recording sessions and I spent this morning inside the tape vault (which looks like a 3M tape factory!).
The bulk of Jackie's sessions (except for "Lonely Teardrops" which was cut at United Sound) were indeed cut at Bell Sound in NYC, recorded on three & four track tape machines (three or four track) as well as a monuaral machine. "Am I The Man", "Baby Workout", "Danny Boy" (1965 version) and "No Pity In The Naked City" are just a few of the many he cut as well as his duets with Lavern Baker ("Think Twice").
Ruppli is right - there aren't many unreleased JW tunes in the vault but there are several outtakes of each song Brunswick released. For example, there are seven takes of "Baby Workout" (number seven being the charm) but takes 3 & 5 were complete takes as well. It would be interesting to hear if JW took a different approach to each vocal take or not.
Jackie did some "in between" sessions at Decca's NYC studio in NYC during the late 1960s (I have to check with Carl Davis about those sessions). Otherwise, when Davis took over A&R, JW's studio sessions for the most part took place in Chicago (& Los Angeles when he cut an album with Count Basie).
Best regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:35 pm: |
dvdmike:
Brunswick may work with a music researcher to put together the sessionography regarding the JW/NYC masters. Stay tuned.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Fury13 (12.2.196.17) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:47 pm: |
Actually, "Got A Job" by the Miracles came out on New York's End label in 1958. The label was started by George Goldner but may have already been under Morris Levy's control by that time. It was "Bad Girl" (1959) that came out on Chess.
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:54 pm: |
Good catch, Fury ...
| By dvdmike (12.84.12.116) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 03:29 pm: |
The album with Basie was done at United/Western Studios in Hollywood on January 3 & 4, 1968, Nat Tarnopol & Teddy Reig produced the album with Benny Carter writing the charts. According to Ruppli's sessionography, "Lonely Teardrops" was cut in NYC. Look forward to seeing the finished works.
| By Keith Hughes (62.137.159.75) on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 02:12 pm: |
Just for the "record" - in case anyone's researching this topic and using this thread (you guys have a valuable archive here, for heaven's sake keep it backed up!) -
Gordy also released "I cry"/"Money" on the Miracles through End, and "All I want is you"/"I need a change" (also on the Miracles) through Chess.
The Chess sides have turned up on Chess compilations as well as Motown compilations, so the interesting q arises, who pays whom when this happens?
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 03:16 pm: |
Keith:
At the time those Chess compilations were issued (late 1980s/early 1990s), MCA Records owned both Motown and the Chess catalog - which explains why the Miracles' early material (as well as the Four Tops' "Keeper Of The Castle") went back & forth between the two labels. Today everything is under Universal Music Group's banner but Motown's catalog is handled by Harry Weinger & MCA/Chess is overseen by Andy McKaie.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By keith Rylatt (62.252.200.215) on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 04:47 pm: |
Having been away from the site for some time I'm just trying to catch up. As part of the book I am working on, `The Detroit File`, I am checking out the Chicago connection, which is lengthy, complex and fascinating! Juggy Murry was a naughty boy, using a lot of Popcorn Wylie's efforts without acknowledgement, er, apart from `Popcorn Boo Ga Loo` of course! I was interested to learn that Popcorn and Bob Bateman were the driving force behind a record that was BIG, BIG, BIG in Britain, `She blew A Good Thing` by the (American) Poets. That is what us old timers call a REAL Soul record. Anyway back to earth, I recently produced an article for a UK Soul magazine on the late, great Johnny Sayles and when scrutinising my collection I noted his Brunswick 45, `Good Golly`.Written by Richard Wylie & Tonie (sic) Hester, Mclaughlin Publishing and Popcorn's music `company` - Ala King. (named after his mother Althia King.) Incidentally, Juggy Murray as Jerry-O had a fan club in the UK, his `Karate Boo Ga Loo` was very popular. I always felt that a lot of those Chicago `Toasting` records were fore runners to the Rap stuff. Alvin Cash, Jerry-O, E. Rodney Jones etc. I know they are realatively low on musical sophistication but just like Cliff Nobles, `The Horse`, they are exciting. Happy Christmas Keith
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.60) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 02:07 am: |
Keith
what a singer man,
Johnny Sayles
Tremendous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
please keep us all informed regards the
work you are doing.
mel.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.85) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 09:29 pm: |
Jacklyn Records.
This highly collectable late 60's Chicago Label was set up by Johnny Haygood who previously worked with the New York based 'Groovy'Label but left this label as he was unhappy about the financial rewards that his son Darrow Fletcher had recieved for his 4 releases on the label.
Johnny Haygood had a hand in co-writing some of his sons releases and also helped produce several sides.
no.1006-Darrow Fletcher 'what good am I without you'(McNeir/Mancha/McNeir)producd by Don Mancha.
c/w 'Little Girl'(Haygood/Fletcher)produced by T.Daniel,arranged by Mike Terry.
no.1009-Lovemasters 'pushin'and pullin'/'Love Train'(Don Mancha).
no.1010-Joe Savage and the Soul People 'All power to the people pts 1 and 2(J.Moore and D.Mancha).
As far as I know
no.1001-Paul Smith.
no.1002-Darrow Fletcher.
no.1003-Darrow Fletcher.
no.1004-Paul Smith.
no.1005-Bobbie Brown.
no.1006-As Mentioned above.
no.1007-dont know.
no.1008-dont know.
no.1009-As Mentioned above.
no.1010-As Mentioned above.
no.1011-Pam Colquitt.
I Have heard that there was a Jacklyn release by the Detroit Soul Masters called Stirrin'up some soul,but have no info,unless it is one of the above missing numbers,I dont know can anyone help?
The 2 known sides to myself personally,as they were played on the rare/northern soul scene are What good am I and Pushin' and Pullin'.
The flip side on no.1004/paul smiths aint that something,pushin'and pullin'and also no.1005 by bobbie brown of I gotta have you are all similar/same backing tracks.
3 different label colours were used-1001 had a white label with red/brown writing,
1002/3/4/5/6 had a yellow label with with black writing and releases 1009/10/11 were on an orange label with black writing.
When this was compiled,which was a few years ago,there was no demonstration copies thought to exist of any of the releases.
Any update regards the label would be much appreciated.This list was done by myself(mel)with help from Bob Hitchcocks personal collection.So any errors/update put right is welcome.
Mel.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.41) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 09:59 pm: |
Sidenote to above!!!!!
Darrow Fletcher.
Darrow was born in 1951 in Inkster,Michigan.
At the age of 5 his family moved to Chicago.Aged 14 in 1965 he cut a rare/northern soul dancer called 'the pain gets a little deeper'for the New York label Groovy.This track was issued on uk London records-HLU10024,His only uk release,which is still sought after to this day.
Other northern dancers by him were
gotta draw the line(Richard Barret)on groovy no.3007-a solid hitbound production.
And on Jacklyn his what good am I Without you was/is still a dancer today.
Groovy records folded as a label when darrows father formed Jacklyn and signed him to it.
Darrow also recorded for Revue records which had Mike Terry involved.
Also for UNI records which had arrangements by Tom Tom and a Don Mancha song.
The Congress label also had a recording by darrow with a cut also written by Don Mancha.
The last I knew was that Darrow Fletcher recorded 2 tracks in 1974 on Ray Charle's 'Crossover' record Label.
mel.
| By acooolcat (61.222.95.58) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 10:52 pm: |
Mel, Did you know that Darrow is Rose Battiste's cousin?
Graham
| By phillysoulman (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 11:19 pm: |
This is the kind of stuff on which this fine forum was built. Keep up the great work gang!!!
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.93) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 03:48 am: |
Graham,
did I s....
no mate,I never knew that at all.
Nice one graham.
mel.
| By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 08:52 am: |
Thanks for the interesting detail Mel.
I have to put Darrow's "What good am I without you" up there with the best.
It is action packed DYNAMITE.
Thanks also to Graham for the Rose connection.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.97) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 09:04 am: |
David,
no probs,
I agree with you regards the What good am I Track,pure dynamite(and nytro-glycerine,is like a fire cracker oops,sorry,I was suddenly on stage with herb and brenda there)
Yet another great singer,like oh,so many other unsung heroes that should of made it a lot bigger.
It really does still amaze me today david,how so many talented artists just cant get that one big break in life.
MEL.
| By Keith Hughes (62.137.159.75) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 05:29 pm: |
KevGo - Thanks for clearing up that puzzle on the Miracles .... Keith
| By Eli (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 05:47 am: |
Let us not forget the fact the early Chess master purchases( Bad Girl) and the fact that Berry did all of his early mastering there before they got the lathe and even during that time.
And of course all of the "ghost" sessions which the funks did in Chi town.
I still have my copy of Dave Pruter's wonderful book, Chicago Soul.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.85) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 07:26 am: |
A mish mash of various recordings with that good old Detroit/Chicago connection.
Beverly Shaffer-Even the score 3147
Detroit?/One-der-ful 4838 1965.
Beverly Shaffer-where will you be boy 3146
when I Think about you 3163
Chicago/one-der-ful 4838,President(E) LP 002
One-der-ful 4840 1965.
Beverly Shaffer-I simply love him 3164
Chicago/one-der-ful 4840. 1965.
Horace Williams
with Choker Campbell&His Magic City Orchestra.
I'm going Christmas shopping MC-002-A
Santa Goofed MC-002-B
Detroit/Magic City 002 1966.
Paul Mitchell Trio
Now that I Know what lonliness is 202-A
Straight ahead and dont look back 202-B
Chicago/T&L 202 (NOT SURE BUT)1971/2?.
Reginald Day-Lost Love 3234
Chicago/Midas 9005 1967
Reginald Day-My girl Jean 3239
Chicago/Midas 9005 1967.
The outstanding dancer by
Joseph Moore
I'm Lost without you 3155
I Still cant get to you(a rare/northern soul gem)
3156 Mar-V-Lus 6008 1965.
Lee(Mr Dynamite)Moore
Do the funky thing 8 1A
What goe's up must come down (omit horns)
8791-B
Detroit/Rileys 8791 1970(or thereabouts).
I Know there are one or two mentioned that are just Detroit or Chicago related,not to worry.Any feedback appreciated.
MEL.
| By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 09:24 am: |
Keith,
Jerry Murray and Juggy Murray are two different people.
Jerry Murray AKA Jerry-O is the Chicago guy who
did all those boogaloo records.
Juggy Murray was the owner of the Sue / Symbol
group of labels. Maybe it was Popcorn Wylie and Bob Bateman's involvement with the Poets that made you think they're the same.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 11:52 am: |
Davie & Keith:
Another great Juggy Murray release that Popcorn & Bateman may have produced was the Poets' "Wrapped Around Your Finger" on they Symbol label.
Kevin Goins - KevGo