By FunkFan (151.203.5.104) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:02 pm:| By FunkFan (151.203.5.104) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:02 pm: |
I happened to see an interview done on bassworld.co.uk which seems to try to discredit The Funk Brothers and their achievments. Rather interesting reading.
I find it a bit curious this interview is granted and posted during the time The Funks are finally getting their due fame and honor.
| By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:10 pm: |
Funk Fan,
I can't find it on that site..what did you click on?
Vickie
| By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:15 pm: |
I found the interview, I was actually looking to click on something different than what I found...
jeeez it never ends..
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:40 pm: |
Vickie, Funkfan & the Soulful Detroit Family:
KevGo here. Bassworld had an open forum interview with Carol Kaye - who STILL claims that she played on key Motown tracks. Here's are excerpts:
Q:What is your favourite "Motown" session and why? And how the Motown writers, producers dealt with you in light of James Jamerson, did they have any "strange or unusual" expectations of you?
From: Steve Adler, Canyon Lake, CA - stevekbc@yahoo.com - Alembic bass club member
CAROL KAYE: About 40% of the Motown hits/music was recorded in LA. Why they don't talk about it anymore is their business. I knew there was this fellow back in Detroit who started the Motown sound (had no idea of his name) back in 1964 when I first played bass for Motown. The only time compression was used on me was when Armin Steiner, the engineer said he had to put it on me to try to "match the sounds that the Detroit bass player had", which was fine with me...but never had EQ or compression put on me at any time...they all loved the sounds I got. There was no secret back then that part of Motown was recorded out here in LA during the 60s...there's a total of 10 bass players out here who recorded Motown things in the 60s....where Motown had 2 floors of offices since 1962 in the Sunset Tower building...we saw all the groups up there rehearsing while taking our tunes up there to try to "sell them".
COMMENT FROM BASSWORLD.COM:
Ms. Kaye we are aware of the controversy with regard to James Jamerson
and Motown the majority of people that have discussed it in our forum
are behind you 100% but there are still some doubters out there so we
are including one question with regard to the whole "Motown" recordings
from a club member in the UK. Please feel free to comment or not on
this next question posed to you! (This question is typed verbatim from
this particular person, who did not think that you would even consider
answering this question).
Q:"Why do you claim to have played on most of the Motown stuff when it was in fact James Jamerson?"
From: Michael Messaggiero, Llanelli, Wales - linomm@yahoo.com - Jay Dee
bass club member
CAROL KAYE: You were there? You absolutely know the real history of a company that everyone of us is ashamed we ever worked for? Grow up.
KevGo here again - I know the subject of Carol Kaye is a sensitive one here and I would equate it with beating a dead horse, but for her to say that FORTY PERCENT of Motown's 1960s product came from the West Coast I find questionable. Can anybody shine some light on this subject and please tell Carol to "stop doing the drugs.."
Regards,
KevGo
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:47 pm: |
Kevgo,
For her to call Motown a "company that everyone of us is ashamed we ever worked for?" What a piece of work. Did she really refer to "some fellow back in Detroit" starting the Motown sound?
And this bassworld.com is behind her?
| By Music FAn (64.236.243.31) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:48 pm: |
who are these other 10 bass players mentoned in the interview - perhaps some of our guys here know them.
Music FAn
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:57 pm: |
Sue & MusicFan:
It seems that www.bassworld.co.uk backs Carol Kaye based on the commentary I posted. Everything you read came right from the original posting (no editing or paraphrasing). She mentions no names of "the other ten bass players" in LA nor does she mention the name of "fellow from Detroit" who "invented" the Motown Sound. So for this website to back her up based on such flimsy evidence...I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
You're right about one thing - for her to assume any "shame" from anyone associated with Motown shows that she is a piece of work who needs to grow up.
Regards,
KevGo
| By FunkFan (151.203.5.104) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:58 pm: |
I also liked the little disclaimer (in red) above question 9, stating that the the majority of their forum in 100% behind her and her claims.
I have yet to find their forum to research this statement.
Peritinent to question 9, she is ashamed of ever working for Motown, so is she as well ashamed of the hits she allegedly played on?
Lastly, KevGo, speaking of drugs, what the hell was she on when thanking Bassworld.co.uk for doing the interview. I cant make heads or tails of that statement.
| By Friday (209.245.116.130) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:59 pm: |
Carol Who?
| By Dennis Coffey (64.12.97.7) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:59 pm: |
Hey Folks. I did sessions for Motown in Detroit for four years and in LA for three years. I did not play with Carol on any sessions. Draw your own conclusions. I remember James Jamerson, Wilton Felder, and Chuck Rainy playing bass on the LA sessions.
Dennis
| By Common (209.2.55.136) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 02:59 pm: |
CAROL KAYE: "About 40% of the Motown hits/music was recorded in LA. Why they don't talk about it anymore is their business. I knew there was this fellow back in Detroit who started the Motown sound (had no idea of his name) back in 1964 when I first played bass for Motown...."
Huh? I wasn't even born when the Motown sound came to be and from what I've read, even I find this questionable. How is it that she can't name the person who started Motown??? And Motown was started in 1959, not 1964. Methinks girlfriend has her decades mixed up. Could she have played at Motown during the '70's, instead of the 60's? Has she sued Motown over these claims?
Peace!
| By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:05 pm: |
Common LOL,
She sounds like she has her decades mixed up..
I have a car...I drive it - some fellow in Detroit had a factory where is was built..
Vickie
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:09 pm: |
What's missing from all this is a definitive biography of Ms Kaye. For its author, I'd like to propose Lord Archer.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:25 pm: |
Hey Gang:
Dennis Coffey hit the nail on the head with his statement and he would know since worked on both coasts with Motown. Both Wilton & Chuck have had to defend themselves against Ms. Kaye's allegations through their own websites and interviews (and they both played on Motown sessions since the Jackson 5 years if I'm not mistaken). Motown did quite a few television productions in the late 1960s & early 1970s, so maybe Ms. Kaye's is thinking of those recording sessions. Who knows? The bottom line is for her to spew such a bitter statement regarding "shame" shows that she hasn't grown since the 1960s.
Regards,
KevGo
| By Common (209.2.55.136) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:25 pm: |
Vicki, now that I come to think of it, if she claims she played on 40% of Motown records, then why can't I just say that I was one of "...10 bass players that recorded Motown things in the 60's". It could've been possible that she's was a shy person & no one noticed her. I fail to understand why no one can follow Ms. Kaye's logic! LOL!
I really can't help but make light of this. But I know it's serious because some people out there actually believe her. I wonder if she's given any of the movie's producers any hassles since the promotion & publicity of the movie?
Peace!
| By Vicke (64.236.243.31) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:35 pm: |
Common,
If you claim to be there and if I do too..we just need 8 more to say WE don't know who she is..
I know this is a serious topic....I think perhaps she did TV and has record sessions confused with TV sessions...different unions, musicians and such..
PEACE!
| By Livonia Ken (206.148.226.42) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:35 pm: |
Carol Kaye said that ten bass players in LA, of which she was one played 40% of the Motown stuff.
That has been pretty well documented as untrue, and I do not understand where it came from. Kaye is a very accomplished bass player who certainly does not need to pad her resume. Ah well. 
Regards,
Ken
| By FunkFan (151.203.5.104) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:37 pm: |
Dont know if she has hassled anyone involved with the movie but I think she carefully chooses the time and place to publicize her position where be it at bassworld or her own forum.
I have noticed, (and admit I go to her forum) if any person connected with the L.A. music scene passes wind, it appears posted on her forum. I have seen nothing posted regarding The Funks and Rockwalk tributes.
Must be ashamed she ever worked with any of those fellows.
| By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 03:55 pm: |
Remember all those West Coast Tv shows in the 60's - Hollywood Palace etc.? They would occasionally have vocal groups like The Tempts and Tops on singing over a pre-recorded backing track that obviously wasn't the original music track. The music would always have this brassy Doc Severensin sound to it and the tempos would be about twice that of the original record ; not to denigrate the musicians who played this stuff - I'm sure they were quite skilled , but evidently the feel of this type of music eluded them because they would really stink these songs up. Anyway , I have to believe THESE are the tracks that Carol Kaye played on. As noted elsewhere, she certainly doesn't need to pad her resume and I just can't believe she's delusional enough to think that no one would know better.
Re: '10 LA bass players' - I'm sure that post ,say , '74 there were many bass players on Motown related product (Billy Nelson or Donald Baldwin on Jeffrey Bowen's productions ,etc.)
but there is some serious time travel happening on Ms. Kaye's part.
Steve K.(not Kaye)
| By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.113) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:09 pm: |
Ritchie,
Lord Archer,nice one,
or maybe
Lord Charles.
Cheers
MEL.
| By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:11 pm: |
Regarding the Carol Kaye thing. This might be a dumb question, but the records she claims to have played on, and those she claims were done in LA had to have a Producer, right. I would have thought that the Producers would know what session men they used for these songs, especially if they were big hits and enhanced the Producers reputations. Have these Producers made any comments about this over the years. If it is a dumb question I must have missed something. Regards. SDUK
| By FunkFan (151.203.5.104) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:19 pm: |
Several producers have vocally stated they used only Jamerson and never even, at the time, heard of C.K.
Other producers have signed affadavits that only Jamerson played on their sessions.
| By bassland (64.169.107.66) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:22 pm: |
| By Jay (24.55.22.104) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:26 pm: |
The sad fact is that a lot of the actual records were lost and maybe even intentionally discarded by folks who may NOT have wanted to pay royalties and residuals to those fine musicians later on! hmm...
Ms Kaye is a brilliant musician. But her throwing sour grapes all over the Jamerson/Motown legacy is tasteless and not becoming of a woman who, as of LA's Wrecking Crew, broke the sex barrier to become the number one on-call bass player in LA. .
As said on the Joe Messina thread, Quoteing Joe
he said that Jamerson told him about a "girl bass player" on the west coast who could play absolutely anything. Jamerson was very complimentary toward her.
Any good bass player knew that when you played for Motown, you were to play in the Jamerson style if possible!
I believe if James was around, this whole "who-played-on-what"thing would have never happened.
| By SteveS (209.219.207.3) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:27 pm: |
I'm really sorry to see this stuff resurface yet again. However, I resolved it in my own mind a few years ago. It really doesn't matter what Carol played on. Whatever she may have done for Motown, she played in the style invented by Jamerson. If it was a written part, it was written to be in the style of Jamerson, as so many of the Motown arrangers have told us (see Allan Slutsky's original SITSOM bass book). If Jamerson hadn't created that style, I Was Made to Love Her would have sounded more like Good Vibrations.
I think Carol should take a page from Bob Babbitt's playbook. Bob's been very clear about who came first, who invented the sound (he made a comment to that effect at the Roostertail on Sunday), and the influence that Jamerson had on him. Chuck Rainey has also been very generous in his acknowledgment and praise of Jamerson (and has done a great deal to extend what Jamerson started). However, Carol seems to imply that she, and not Jamerson, created that sound, which is almost impossible to believe for a number of reasons, one of them being that she would have been the creator of the world's hippest bass style, which she decided to never use anywhere else outside of Motown. I don't think so.
Bottom line - it doesn't matter what she played on. It's Jamerson's style, regardless.
SteveS
| By The Old Miner (195.93.33.10) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:30 pm: |
Since at least 50% of the tracks Motown recorded in the 60's are still unreleased, perhaps CK played on those.............but I doubt that too..........
| By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:39 pm: |
Thanks FunkFan for that. I'm with you anyway, I guess it was a dumb question. Regards SDUK
| By BassLand (64.169.107.66) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:09 pm: |
Steve,
To say, "It doesn't matter what she says she played on" is one thing and at this point I am willing to agree upon but, it is very incorrect to assume that is doesnt matter "what she played on". Especially here at soulful Detroit!
Not only are some of the artist and other employees of Motown Detroit here but some of the Funk Brothers.
To imply that the musicians on released verions of Bernadette and IWMTLH was any body other than Jamerson and the Funk Brothers is inapropriate and further it is untrue.
BL
| By BassLand (64.169.107.66) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:27 pm: |
Jay,
What about the record of the memories of the participants of the events culmination with the release of those records? What about the producers , engineers and record company executives and the other players of the music (like someone else mentioned here)? In the 1960 the job of producer was not to write a check and take over possesion of the master. It was a hands on deal. The producers actually hired the musicians and made sure the proper union paperwork was filed. I am sure that you must understand that Detroit is a heavy UNION town (Think UAW).
I personally spoke to the producer/co-writer for IWMTLH he said it was Jamerson. end of story AFAIAC (as far as I am concerned).
BL
| By SteveS (68.41.251.33) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:40 pm: |
BL,
Believe me, we're on the same page here. What I am trying to say is that, if, through some convoluted set of circumstances Carol actually did end up on a release version, it doesn't matter in the sense that she'd basically be "ghosting" for Jamerson, and playing in the style that was uniquely his. I personally find this hard to believe, but as Carol points out, we weren't there - "there" being wherever she was when the sessions she describes took place.
SteveS
| By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:48 pm: |
I think this thread is a troll intended to sling mud at the notoriety the Funk Brothers are finally receiving after all these years. I urge everybody to ignore it. We've all wasted far too much energy on this.
| By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:52 pm: |
Thanks Bob.
David
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:55 pm: |
Steve,
It does matter what Carol played on because in fact, affidavits have been filed by the Holland brothers and other producers about the songs she claims. If they say James Jamerson played on those sides, and the Dennis Coffeys who played alongside him say he did, then her claims must be refuted.
| By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:56 pm: |
Carol is alive, James is not. That's why this debate is still going and always may. Quoting from JFK, a Mystery inside a Riddle wrapped in an Enigma. Hard to prove 'jack' when the counterpoint is dead and the survivor (Carol) contradicts the witness (Producer). It's A Shame.
(a stellar Jamerson talkie - I digress).
I like SteveS' take on it. Jamerson came first. Everyone else *tried* and IMO NEVER SUCCEEDED to capture his brilliance. How could they? They're not him!
I say this with total respect to Bob Babbitt, Wilton, Chuck, Carol et al.
| By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:59 pm: |
We need respect on this forum.
thanks Larry
David
| By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 06:15 pm: |
Sue,
This is all so tricky. Would HDH file an affidavit claiming they wrote SITSOL? Everyone *knows* they did, the records and publishing say's so. Well, I know they didn't. I know why my Uncle lost in court. He and Ricky Dee blew their own case and the Judge awarded publishing to HDH (whom I still respect like a MOFO for the amazingly talented team they are).
This is just an example of how gritty things can get if you dig deep.
But this debate has nothing to do with the Funks Greatness and this Site and SITSOM.
p.s. and off topic. I have about 6-8 minutes of interview from Wednesday's KRTH-101 (LA) w/Uriel, Bob and Joe.
Anyone who wants an MP3 of my edit write me separately at lrott@corpinfo.com
My clip includes a 2 minute in-studio Jam with Uriel on cardboard boxes
| By Jay (167.167.44.218) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 06:55 pm: |
Dear BassLand.
You are not wrong here.
Some points however...
Equating the UAW with the Musicians Union is like apples and oranges. I know because at-one-time I was a member of both! Jamerson deserves the credit for the performance, artistry and the sound period! ...but I also have a tendency to think that ALL was not black and white and that some inaccuracies probably occured.
An interesting thing happened in the engineering shop the other day. I was playing Bernadette from the SITSOM soundtrack. While the bass was naked, my boss walked in and HE SAID, and I quote: "It sounds like a pick". Whoa I know of the controversy but I could NOT believe he said that???
| By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 07:27 pm: |
Dear forum members,
A few months go we went through an ordeal relating to a Carol Kaye thread. At the time it served no real purpose and it seems to me, no real purpose now. Please drop it. It's all negative anyway and we don't need that here if it can be helped. Thanks,
Ralph
| By FunkFAN (151.203.5.104) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 08:47 pm: |
I, truly and tired of this debate. It just seems to me so self serving to grant and post an interview while the cement isn't yet dry on the Funk Bros hand prints @ The Rock Walk . I truly believe the readers and contributors of this site are not fooled by abborant claims by "ONE" individual.
If anyone had the "Funk" and CHOPS" in L.A. at this time, it would have been Joe Osborn. To me, Joe was the epitamy of Funk, Groove and Innovation (sans Jamerson of course)when thinking of the Los Angeles Session players. Please bare in mind, C.K. absolutey refutes the concept of "THE WRECKING CREW". She solidly states, time after time, was not a part of the the crew and cronies, but a large portion of her arguement is based just upon that.
Enough from me, I'm tired and retired from this debate.
| By Clay (66.73.182.241) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:19 pm: |
Hi Folks,
I don't talk and promote BS on this forum or anywhere else. When I speak about Motown and the people who
were a part of it I always do my very best to bring the truth to the TABLE. I have had just about enough of this Carol Kaye BS and the fact still remains that if she was so hot and recorded so many of the hits she should give a list of the material and a union session sheet to back it up. It's funny that none of the other musicians remember her presents on the so-called hits she helped to create. My cousin was married to her and swears to me that she has some issues that need to be addressed with some professional counseling. At this point as Bob Olhsson has said let's leave this
subject in the barn where it belongs and move on to the real subjects at hand. In closing, I must report that the West coast sessions were good, but
the Detroit sessions were GREAT and never duplicated to this date. I'm not even sure if Carol Kaye knew who the real Funk Bros were. Peace
| By Friday (209.244.235.206) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:39 pm: |
Carol Kaye is Done on this thread.See Ya
| By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:54 pm: |
Like I said gang...please drop it now.