By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.97) on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:37 pm:

Any info about this truly,never to be forgotten
Soulstress,would be appreciated.
(espically from TonyR).
With Thanks.
MEL.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 03:57 pm:

MEL:
See my blurb in the Sonny Sanders thread regarding "Use Your Head."
KevGo

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.64) on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 04:22 pm:

Kev,
Ive seen it mate,as with all your fine threads.
Right,heres a few Mary Wells great cuts.
Hitsville Acetates.
Drop in the bucket
The Day will come.
Motown Records.
Bye,bye baby/please forgive me-Motown1003
Im so sorry/I dont want to take a chance-1011 w/ps
Strange Love/come to me-1016 w/ps
The one who really loves you/Im gonna stay-1024 w/ps
You beat me to the punch/Old love-1032 w/ps
w/ps=with picture sleeve.
Two lovers/operator-1035
Laughin'boy/2 wrongs dont make a right-1039
also tracks on
Motown-1042
1048
1061
Atco 6392
6423
6469
Jubilee 5621
5629
5639
5676
5684
5695
20th Cent. (the brilliant,aint it the truth)544
555
570
590
606
619
Reprise 1031
1308
of course there are others,like the classic My Guy etc,most of these are obscure/semi obscure items(or have been)I would of listed them all,but someone will probably hit me with a web address.
TonyR,THE L.P. You mentioned with Drop in the bucket on wasnt called From the Vaults was it?
As this came out in the u.k.late 1980s,and I cant find mine or the listing.
So much that I could write about Mary Wells,but I will leave it there,her music does the talking for her.
Thanks for the memories Mary Wells.
MEL(andthensome).

By Tony Russi (68.18.48.135) on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 04:49 pm:

Mary Wells was, is , and always will be my favorite singer.The first record I ever bought was "Bye,Bye Baby".When the Motortown Revue came to Miami in 1962 I begged my parents to take me BUT I didn't understand about segregation (I was 10)I saw the bus in the parking lot of Sir Johns Knightbeat(motel/club) I called & got through to Mary Wells!She said come down, my mom said OK & let me as was on a main road.Martha Reeveswas Mary's room-mate...I knew who the Vandellas were from the Marvin Gaye single.Anyway that was my first meeting with Mary & then did not get to see her again until 1966 when she was co-star of the Joe Tex Show at the Orlando Auditorium...her latest record was "Dear Lover"....then Mary & her then husband moved to Ft. Lauderdale & DJ friend got us in touch & I started traveling with them as road manager, helper ect. then I moved to LA with them.Any specific questions about certain recordings especially her Jubilee recordings that she & Cecil wrote & produced.I have read in many books & articles that Mary left Motown because 20th Century Fox also promised her a film career...Mary flatly denied that & I think anyone that really knows her would know that was not true<mayby Herman Griffin had that in mind but Mary is a very shy person and she always considered herself a soul/rock performer and did not have moviestar personality(whatever that is).She was a good mother to her children,was a good cook and alot of fun to just hang with.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.64) on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 04:56 pm:

Nice one Tony,
2 superb tracks that I still have today
that you mentioned,
Bye,Bye,Baby
Dear Lover.
I have lots of various material about the great lady,but none of it beats stuff by someone who was there.Appreciated.
MEL.

By Fury13 (209.69.165.10) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:30 pm:

"Bye Bye Baby" still absolutely rocks!

By Millie (68.40.209.129) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:42 pm:

"Bye Bye Baby" was my first Mary Wells record, and I must say the grittiness in her voice was what made that song so memorable. Once Berry got a hold of her and "satinized" her sound, the old Mary Wells disappeared. Pity. She was raw and she was real...then. That's not to say her followup songs were bad..in fact they were great, however, I would have liked to have heard more of the "original" Mary Wells.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:56 pm:

It was really Smokey Robinson who smoothed out Mary's "grittiness" ...as her writer/producer he gave her more of a pop sound. It went over, she had success with that silkier sound, so of course the boss said go for it ...

By GrahamD (62.254.0.7) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 11:58 am:

Mary Wells Lp titled=ooh!Mary Wells,Movietone,20th century fox #72010
Never Never leave me.*
He's a lover.*
Stop takin me for granted.*
Use your head.*
We're just two of a kind.
My minds made up.
Side 2
Why dont you let your self go.*
Everlovin boy.*
Aint it the truth.*
He's good enough for me.
How can i forget him.

the above starred tracks as you know got a 45 release,but the other 4 tracks are only found on this Lp!!absolute smashing tracks!!
I have also noticed some of her work on Epic!! does anyone have any details!
Mary Wells R.I.P.

By John Lester (217.40.194.66) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:24 pm:

The Epic album was produced by Greg Perry

These Arms
(Will You Still Love Me) Share My Love
You make Me feel so Good Inside
Spend The Nights With me

Let's Mix It up
I'm Changin My Ways
I'm Not The One (You're In Love With)
Indian Giver
Gigolo

Bob Bateman, Edna Wright and many other members of the Perry family are on the album.

The album is from 1981

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.81) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:35 pm:

John,
some renowned names indeed.
Great stuff,
MEL.

By M.McLeanTech (64.236.243.31) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 09:05 pm:

Here is a Mary Wells story from "someone who was there:"

It must have been about 1962. I was invited to a party that was being held in a nice hotel suite. When I arrived, there were about 70 people standing around, all very well dressed in suits, sipping on drinks as in a cocktail party. The air was thick with cigarette smoke, and there was lots of conversation going on. Many of the Motown artists, and people like Mickey Stevenson, Clearance Paul, Ivy Hunter, Etc. were there.

I hit the bar for a few shooters, and before long, I was feeling a little light headed, what with the smoke and all. The stand up party had gotten so large, that it had spilled into the bedroom. The bed was still beautifully made up with a deluxe bed spread. Mary Wells was laying on the bed (fully clothed) as if she needed to take a short "breather."

I wanted to do the same thing, so I asked her if I could lie down on the other side. She had no objections, so I lay down.

After a couple of minutes, Bobby Rogers of the Miracles came floating along, chattering away with someone. He reached a point where he was standing near the bed on Mary's side.

Mary called to him: "Bobby!..... Bobby, come on over here. Why don't you come over and give me some of that sweet sugar?

She went ahead with this while paying no attention to me at all.

Bobby came over and bent over and gave her a long kiss on the mouth. When he was finished, she let out a moan and said, "MMMM, that's sweet sugar Bobby." Bobby smiled and walked away and continued to visit with people.

By about this time I had recovered, so I got up and went for another drink. That was the last I saw of the bedroom, or Mary Wells that night.

There was actually nothing that out of the ordinary about this encounter, except for the unusual perspective from which it was observed by the young, innocent white boy from the suburbs. I will never forget the strange, provocative feeling that I took away from that party because of this incident.

Mike McLean

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.28) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 11:57 pm:

Mr.McClean,
great stuff sir,
When did you say,your book was coming out.
MEL.

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.130) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 12:34 am:

Mel,

For every story like that, there would be twenty about technical subjects, ten about classical music, ten about rats and roachs, ten about how I loath myself, and three about my fantasies about gynocology.

Now what publisher would want to fool with a pile of manure like that?

I deeply appreciate your kind words.

Mike McLean

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.39) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 02:37 am:

Mr McClean,
I wish I had everyday stories like that,
And if I was a Publisher
then I would publish A Pile of manure like that,as you put it.
Although I think I would have to draw the line at your fantasies about the gynocology(ho,ho).
regards
Mel.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:15 pm:

Mike McClean: Do you remember Herman Griffin?
Do you remember an incident in Detroit (1963)
where he was split from Mary Wells and tried to
see her at a club or theatre she was working
and when a guy working for her, I think his
name was Robert West, tried to stop Herman,
Herman pulled a gun and shot West in the face?
This is why I believe Mary had already split
with H. Griffin long before she left Motown.
My brother & I knew her, and I don't remember
anything about Griffin except that she said she
married him when she was 17 and divorced him two
years later. Well, she didn't leave Motown until
after she turned 21. I do remember her going with
Carl Davis after she left and then she married
Cecil Womack in '66.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

Does anyone know Mary Wells' friend Maye James?
She was there and would know a lot of this.

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:33 pm:

I have a couple of tracks by Herman Griffin. Dance Time and Dream Girl. Would that be the same Herman Griffin? Thanks. SDUK

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.86) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:38 pm:

Davie,
I have seen recently a couple of very rare Herman Griffin unreleased acetates.
I would also like to know if were talking about the same guy.
MEL.

By TonyRussi (68.18.48.135) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:50 pm:

Herman Griffin had a couple of 45 releases on Motown(Tamla label I think)He was older and became Mary Wells conductor for a little while.

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:53 pm:

Hi Mel, I don't know anyhing about Herman Griffin. The two tracks I mentioned are all I've heard from him. I prefer "Dance Time" Thanks.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.76) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:54 pm:

Many thanks,
Mr.T.Russi.
mel.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.76) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Dave,
the tracks I mention are good,very good.
But cant reveal them until I see my mate
who has them.
But that shouldnt be a problem,Its just that I think its only fair to ask him first before revealing anything.
Cheers Dave,
Mel.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.76) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 03:03 pm:

Dave,
try this link and type in Herman Griffin.
(www.google.com).
mel.

By Tony Russi (68.18.48.135) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 03:20 pm:

GRahmD, the Movietone LP is actually the budget line re-release of the 20th Century Fox LP "Mary Wells" I think it is minus the last song "Time After Time". Mel, how do u guys get all these unreleased tracks?I think its great!I don't know what happened to Herman Griffin after Mary split from Motown....his name was not mentioned much.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.67) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 03:38 pm:

Tony,
we get the unissued tracks by sheer hard work,but mainly through sheer good luck.
Being in the right place at the right time.
years ago,around the late 60s and early 70s what we would do was spend day after day going through old collections in record shops,market stalls with batches of mixed records of all types,and then hope to drop lucky.
A mate of mine found loads of stuff around Liverpool in the 60s.And as the years passed and hitting the u.s. market that at the time werent clued up about the music we were looking for(which today they know everything).
I remember my Brother and a friend who were big rare/northern soul collectors at the time in 1970,paying 10pounds just for an american record address because it had lots of fast,uptempo dancers that were going big at the time on our all-nighter scene.AND all were very rare at the time.
T he address they paid 10pounds for in 1970 was for a catalogue of u.s.imports(about 20pages)and was called Record Museum and came out of Fort Lauderdale.
I always remember finding it,as he would always hide his sounds and lists from me,(and if I was ever caught,a good punch was handed out)anyway I always,to this day,remember loads of Lee Andrews and the hearts material in it.
Crazy days indeed Tony.
but alas,these days,the scenes gone crazy,
and everyone is wised up to it.
Charging the earth for records.Crazy days back then,but great days as well,especially if you found that elusive sound.
MEL.

By C$ (65.132.77.165) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 05:34 pm:

Randy,

You got it right on. Robert West owned Lupine Records. I heard the incident took place in NY where West and Betty Lavette went to work a deal with Lavette on Atlantic Records but I could be the victim of mis-information in that regard. It's always been assumed that Mary and Herman was together when she left Motown but like you, I don't think this is true. For one thing he had no involvement in her 20th Century Recordings.

By P.J. (12.227.35.125) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 06:11 pm:

I thought Mary's grittiness on 'Bye Bye Baby' resulted from the fact that Berry Gordy made her sing the song 22 times before achieving the sound he wanted by coaxing a hoarseness in her voice.
Smokey, on the other hand, taught Mary to sing his songs in his style ( the repeat after me vocal technique).

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 07:10 pm:

Mel and Tony, thanks for the info on Herman Griffin, appreciated. SDUK.

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.216) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 01:58 am:

In reference to (on this thread):

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:15 am:

My reply:

I remember Herman Griffen. He was a short fellow who seemed intense and very busy buzzing around "taking care of business." I could never catch his eye for any casual lighthearted interaction.

I was aware that he and Mary were married, and it seems to me that I knew them both during that period.

I have a very vague memory of some kind of dark scandal about this business that you describe about Herman shooting someone. That's about it.

Both Herman and Mary were, from my point of view, "aloof." I consider myself to be a very outgoing, friendly person, with an intense interest in other people and always ready for a friendly conversation with the emphisis on humor and wit. All overtures by me toward Herman and Mary along this line went over like a lead balloon. There was simply nothing there.

There were ladies at Motown that were just the opposite. These folks were always fun to stop and chat with.

Raynoma (Liles) (Gordy) Singleton
Rebecca (Nichols) Giles
Fay Hale
Gwen (Gordy) Fuqua
Esther (Gordy) Edwards
Loucye (Gordy) Wakefield
Mary Wilson
Suzanne De Passe
Martha Reeves
And a special mention for that magnificent woman: I can't think of her name right now, but she was Ralph Seltzer's secretary for quite a while, and she stayed on to help Mrs. Edwards at the museum for many years, before she passed away. I am trying to think of her name. I just got it!!!!!!!

Doris Holland! Oh baby, was she a pip!

I am sure that I have missed a few, and I apologize.

Loucye, who died so tragically of a ceribral hemmorage, and I had a really great relationship.

She was a real kitten, as in Eartha Kit, but more sensually smoldering, and she loved to fool around with verbal flurtatous inuendos. She had a razor sharp mind, was all woman, and we enjoyed our constant kidding around, as we would take care of business.

On the other hand, she in no way impressed me as loose or unfaithful. It was as if she had the good sense to use these conversational techniques to add a harmless touch of spice to an utterly proper married life.

I'm sorry that I can't add more about Mary Wells and Herman. I have done the best I can.

Mike McLean

By John Lester (217.40.239.125) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 02:46 am:

Mike..........I posted a picture of Doris Holland on this site some time back........Well, to be honest, David/Ritchie did it for me!!

Doris Holland is also credited on the Xit album but poor Ralph is having what might be termed a "senior moment" cos he can't remember why! lolol.........

By Tony Russi (68.18.48.135) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 08:19 am:

As I previously said, Mary Wells was basically a very shy person.Mary connected with my whole family from the start and told us things she never discussed with other people BUT Herman Griffin was something not mentioned too much or in detail mayby because we were so tight with Cecil Womack and the Womack family. I know Marys kids never heard of Herman Griffin until they were grown. I do remember Mary saying that Sam Cooke had brought it to her attention that she was not being properly compensated by Motown.Mary was also "aloof" about how George Scheck became her manager.Scheck only managed her & Connie Francis and with Mary he was more or less just an "order taker" and often got her overbooked and sued for not showing up.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 08:48 am:

I do remember the marriage story surfaced in the
teen idol magazines when Mary toured England with
the Beatles in the fall of '64 (after leaving Mo-
town) and they always referred to her "tragic
teenage mistake" of marrying at 17 and divorcing
at 19. So, again, Griffin may have gotten the
the ball rolling on the idea to leave the company,
but I am in doubt that he was around when she did
leave. She, for the record, had told me she wasn't quite sure how she ended up on 20th Century
Fox. And no one has ever stated the amount for
the advance that she said--$300,000! That's what
I remember her saying and as my brother previously
wrote, she totallly denied anything about a movie
career being part of the offer.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:29 am:

John Lester,
I still haven't figured that one out.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:44 am:

Herman Griffin died about ten years ago - heart
attack, I think.

If you check the archives you should find a
listing of Herman's records that I did some months ago.

By John Lester (217.40.234.94) on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 10:33 am:

Ralph.

I forgive you!!

hee hee

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:43 pm:

Randy:
Thank you for the info regarding Mary's last days with Motown.
So much "information" has been circulated over the years I personally didn't know who to believe.
According to Gordy's "autobiography" he claimed that Mickey Stevenson told him to "watch Mary Wells closely because Herman Griffin had been feeding some s--t to her head" regarding Motown and royalties. Then when Ichiban issued Mary's 20th Century Fox recordings (under the title Never Gonna Leave Me), the liner notes mentioned that Morty Craft (20th's label proxy) promised Mary a movie career just to get her to sign to the label (he later admitted that it was a lie).

All this goes to show how great talent can be sadly victimized...
Regards,
KevGo

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 01:41 pm:

To KevGo: I also read Mr. Gordy's account of Mary's exit from Motown as well as several others.
They do differ from the story she always told us!
She did say she had to sign an agreement not to
discuss her reasons for leaving which is why she
was never able to make statements in the press.
By the '80s she was able to talk more freely
publicly, but when it mattered she was bound by
the agreement. She NEVER said H. Griffin had
anything to do with it. She never really said
anything about him. However, she DID say that
she was constantly battling with Motown over
payments and always had an attorney working
with her. She said the company would stall her
releases--NOTE: She only had 10 singles issued
over the '61-'64 period and she was the hitmaker.
The Supremes had the same number of singles, yet
were pretty much unknown nationally. I remember
she said "the first time I jumped on Berry I told
him I can go down to the church and sing for free". She said she believed they (Motown) would
get her attorneys to turn against her. She went
through a few of them during her time with the
label.

By TonyRussi (68.18.48.135) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:13 pm:

Hey KevGo: Many of the people that worked on Mary's 20th Century recordings were former Motown,Bob Bateman, Andre Williams...and then writers Mickey Gentile & Jennie Lee Lambert had just done Marys'"Never Never Leave Me" in like Feb/March '65 and by Sept.'65 they were at Motown(check out the Marvin Gaye song on Cellerful of Motown) and Mickey Gentile producedsome of Barbara McNairs Motown stuff.It was a weird thing but I do beleive Mary when she told us "Ya'll know I wouldn't care about being in a movie".Mary was not stupid and I just think Morty Craft was trying to make himself look smart by saying he tricked her into signing by promising film work.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.29) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:13 pm:

Many thanks for all this great info.
A Great insight to lots of info that was totally unknown by myself.
mel.
(This is why I put out the various threads from time to time,TO LEARN!).

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:16 pm:

Randy & Tony:
Thank you for the feedback. Andre Williams is a dear colleague of mine and a legendary writing/production talent.
Could it be possible that BG had a vendetta against Mary Wells because she was one of the first major artists (if not the first)on Motown to leave the label for what she thought would be greener pastures? There are some tell-tale signs of such actions ("Use Your Head" being pulled from radio just when it was rising up the charts. A Chicago newspaper romantically tying Mary to record producer Carl Davis - which caused him grief in his personal life).
I'm glad that Mary talked freely about what she endured toward the end of her life and shared it with you folks so that - hopefully - her story can be told.
Best regards,
KevGo

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:20 pm:

Again, Mary wasn't naive, but so much was happening around the time she left and she was
so busy with the success of "My Guy" (which she
says they told her was NOT a million-seller),
that she couldn't keep up with everything--she
wasn't sure how she ended up with 20th Century
Fox or even how George Scheck became her manager,
although she remembered meeting him in Detroit
and thought he was really hip in his penstriped
suit (he was an older white man). She was, how-
ever, clear that she was leaving Motown. And,
contrary to what Mr. Gordy says in his recollection, or for that matter anyone else, she
said "Berry was crying, down on his hands and
knees begging, saying 'You name it. I'll give you
anything you want'." Most everyone from Motown
remembers Herman walking away with her and maybe
he did, but he was certainly GONE not long, a
a matter of months, after she left. I really
loved her and enjoyed talking with her so much.
I learned a lot about Motown and the music business from her.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:26 pm:

As far as I know Mary told me she could have
married Carl Davis. That came straight from
her! She also said airplay had been a constant
problem because of Berry saying things like
"the black man made Mary a star and now she
wants to run off with the white man", I guess
in reference to George Scheck and 20th Cent.
Fox.

By Nish (66.119.33.135) on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 04:08 pm:

Thanks for starting the thread Mel! and thank everyone who has shared Mary stories. She was such a great mixture of glamour and girl next door and it's so sad that her lovely music was not as successful post-Motown, as it should have been.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:19 am:

In response to KevGo on B. Gordy having a vendetta
against M. Wells for leaving--He certainly tried
to stop her. Personally he claims he was hurt.
Looking at it from the business point of view,
if she were successful upon leaving it could
have triggered an exodus among his other artists.
Therefore, it's very possible he did what he
could to hurt her career. For years she was
basically erased from the Motown history with
the exception of having the hit "My Guy". She
never received any gold records from the company
and said that initially Gordy told her they were
going to invest all the money back in the company.
She agreed to this because she thought she would
profit as well. As time went on she felt she
wasn't being compensated like others within the
company. Also, as far as I know, Motown was the
only company that also managed and controlled the
bookings of its artists, therefore collecting all
the performance fees. She did tell me that years
later someone from the company had told her they
remembered hearing Berry Gordy say, "Whatever it
takes, we're gonna kill Mary Wells' career."

By Common (209.2.55.140) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:37 am:

Hello Randy,

I'm enjoying this thread about Mary. Not much is known about her except the fact that she recorded "My Guy" & that she left Motown under some controversial circumstances. Thank you for setting the story straight on some of the issues as it pertains to Mary. I remember seeing her for a couple of seconds on Motown 25 & thought that it was kinda cold that she was barely given any stage time, despite the fact that she was the first Motown female Motown artist to actually have several hits under her belt during her stint there.

God bless her family & may she rest in peace!

Peace!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:45 am:

Tony & Randy:
Thank you again for the information regarding Mary.

Do you two remember a wonderful book written by former Rolling Stone journalist Gerri Hirshey called "Nowhere To Run" ? She devoted a section of her book to an interview with Mary regarding her career and her music, while alluding somewhat to why she left Motown. The book was written in 1983 and Hirshey interviewed several soul legends - many before they passed.

Regards,
KevGo

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:55 am:

I've heard these "rumours" about Berry Gordy trying to kill off Mary's career for years - I've
no doubt he regarded her leaving as some sort of
betrayal but I don't see how he could have done
much to sabotage her career.

Refuse to send free copies of Motown releases
to radio stations that played her 20th Century
Fox discs ? - that seems too much like cutting off
your nose to spite your face. Berry was far too
much a businessman to try tactics like that.

Did Motown have any distributors that also handled
20Th Century Fox ? I could see that he might have
some leverage there but trying to pressure distributors is a risky business as any number
of owners of defunct labels will tell you.

The most I could see him doing is badmouthing Mary
to promoters - "she never turns up on time" etc.

I'm inclined to believe that Berry's "We'll kill
her career" stance was just words.
Frankly none of the 20th Century releases that I've heard is in the same league as her Motown records. There's also the undisputable fact that as a record label 20th Century had no really effective pop promotion staff - they were even less effective promoting black records. Just think - how many 20th Century hits can you remember ? They released something
like 550 singles between 1959 - 1968 - you can
probably count the number of real hits on the fingers of one hand.

The move to 20th Century was what de-railed
Mary's career - if she'd moved to practically any
other middling to major label history would have
been a lot different. It's a pity she didn't move
directly to Atco in 1964.

By Common (209.2.55.140) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

Hey KevGo:

I remember reading that book in jr. HS. Very good book by Gerri. It also had a nice section on the Tempts during the Reunion tour.

Peace!

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 12:24 pm:

I agree on the 2oth Century Fox issue. However,
Gordy was VERY powerful in the R&B markets and
could possibly persuade radio programmers to
ignore her releases. I also don't think the
material compares well to what she did at Motown
and it's a pity she didn't stay long enough to get
at least five more hits like "My Guy" under her
belt--"When I'm Gone" would've been another big
hit, I believe, as that was to be the follow-up.
Again, Motown was no longer backing or building
her name and they could've exercised their right
to continue to release singles on her and chose
not to. Doing so would've made her an even bigger
star so perhaps that's why they chose not to.
Mary never said anything against anyone at Motown
and actually did like them all--including the
Gordy family.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 12:31 pm:

Yes, I am aware of Gerri Hershey's book. A guy
named Steve Bergsman, I think that's his name,
who lives in Arizona, was going to do a book on
Mary or with Mary before she died. He came to
Florida and did an interview with my brother and
I. I don't think he ever found a publisher.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.7) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 12:45 pm:

Hey Nish,
thanks!
Mel.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:09 pm:

Nish:
Glad to see you read the book. Hirshey is one hell of a writer & I hope she will pen a sequel or update NWR.

Davie, Tony & Randy:
I agree with you about 20th Century Fox. Their glory years wouldn't arrive until the early 1970s (thanks to label pres. Russ Regan & his #1 act Barry White). But at the same time "Use Your Head" did make enough noise on the Pop & Soul charts (thanks to Bob Bateman's wonderful production) to reach the lower 30s. And for a Motown artist to leave the label at the time to find that kind of success can't be too bad.

Regards,
KevGo

By Common (209.2.55.139) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:17 pm:

Hey KevGo,

That was me who said that I read Gerri's book! :o)

Peace!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:33 pm:

Common:
Oops! Sorry about that! Blame my head but not my heart!
KevGo

By TonyRussi (68.18.32.162) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:45 pm:

The reality of 1964 pop radio was no matter how big a black artist was...their record had to be a substantial hit on the R&B stations before automatic pop air play was assured.With that in mind Motown could convince the big R& B stations not to play a new release by a certain artist.I have the deepest respect and admiration for Berry Gordy and all of Motown that I love dearly BUT Mary Wells did get a bad rap from them and constantly had forces working against her. I never heard Mary say anything bad about anyone from Motown personally...she accepted that it was a business thing. She told me at one point she wanted to stayat Motown but things had regressed to the point that she thought they would squash her career if she stayed.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:01 pm:

I think the above can serve as documentation that all is not always nice in the rough and tumble record business.

By TonyRussi (68.18.32.162) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:03 pm:

Sorry for running post together...I'm not computer saavy to say the least.DavieGordon, you hit the nail on the head about if Mary hadgone directly to Atlantic Records because 20th didn't have a clue about promoting rock/soul their biggest hit had been Navy Blue by Diane Renay.Mary did feel that Atlantic paid her properly. I miss her and get teary eyed when I think about her last couple of years.I always feel better when I hear her sing.We had alot of fun with Mary & Cecil Womack in the 70's.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

Tony,

I'm not sure that's true about records having to chart R&B before "crossing over". Okay the more
down home stuff like Stax in '64 probably went that way but it wasn't the same for Motown or
most Northern labels.

Billboard abandoned their R&B chart in 1964
because there was essentially no difference
between the R&B chart and the Hot 100 - all
the R&B chart enties were also entering the Hot 100 at roughly the same time.

I did a comparison check some time ago using as
an example Martha and the Vandellas. This topic
really needs a thread of its own.

I'll post some examples tomorrow when I've had
a chance to look for my notes.

Getting back to Mary, this one's getting more
ands more complex. The impression I always got
was that BG was unaware that there were any
problems which is why he was surprised when
Mary left the label as soon as she reached her 21st birthday. From your post it seems there were
long standing problems between Mary and Motown.

I agree that BG had strong connections with
the R&B deejays - but who needed who most is
probably an unanswerable question.

Sorry if I seem to be disagreeing with a lot
of this thread - just think of me as the
devil's advocate : - )

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:10 pm:

That's cool Davie. This is a forum.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:30 pm:

Davie:
As a former radio DJ and archivist, I can testify that a Top 40 Pop station would add an R&B record only when that particular single showed strong airplay and chart movement. Here in NYC, WABC & WMCA added R&B records as a result of "spying" on WLIB and WWRL's playlist. This was true across the country.

Motown was definitely the exception to the rule because (after years of persistence)their brand of Pop/R&B was universal (read - mainstream)from the git-go. Stax/Volt stood its ground with its Southern-baked funkiness which took awhile for Mainstream America to swallow.

As for Billboard's attempt to intergrate the charts in 1964, the reason why they brought back the R&B charts in 1965 was because A)R&B stations started using Cashbox as a gauge B) The competition was much too fierce for just any Pop and R&B record to make it; and C)Billboard was losing customers left and right in both radio and labels.

Regards,
KevGo

By NISH (66.119.33.167) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:32 pm:

It seems like the decline in Mary's career was multifactorial. There's the Motown vendetta theory, the bad press theory, the label's lack of adequate promotion theory. But her career decline is particularly unbelievable because her post-Motown music seems like a logical extension of her Motown output (It's not like she made a drastic style change), the music she produced was of a high quality throughout the 60s, etc.

Yep, that was Common who mentioned she read Hirshey's book (great!). But, I read it awhile back... highly informative. one day when I actually GET money for my WORK (rather than GIVING money for the opportunity to WORK toward a degree), I will add that to my permanent music book collection.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

Davie Gordon, I know that B. Gordy has been quoted
as being surprised and hurt by Mary being receptive to offers from other labels, but as
I previously stated, she said she was always
having conflicts with them (Motown) and that
they would stall her releases. Again, to be
such a consistent hit-maker, she only had 10
singles released on the label over a 4 year
period. She also had several attorneys working
for her and she felt the label may have bought
them off. So, yes, things were never really
well on a business level between Mary and
Motown.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:46 pm:

Davie Gordon, I know that B. Gordy has been quoted
as being surprised and hurt by Mary being receptive to offers from other labels, but as
I previously stated, she said she was always
having conflicts with them (Motown) and that
they would stall her releases. Again, to be
such a consistent hit-maker, she only had 10
singles released on the label over a 4 year
period. She also had several attorneys working
for her and she felt the label may have bought
them off. So, yes, things were never really
well on a business level between Mary and
Motown.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.8) on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:54 pm:

I don't have anything constructive to add, other than a big thank-you, for all these unheard details. Truly amazing stuff, which makes fascinating - but very sad reading. :o)