By DF (24.168.8.150) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 07:19 am:

Hey Folks,

I'm gonna get some serious disagreement here. So be it. As great as David Ruffin was, I have always thought that the Father of the Modern Tenor voice was the one and only Sam Cooke (seems that he was the Father of everybody, in a lot of aspects). I may not get a lot of differing opinions.

But here's where it gets controversial. Many credit Eddie Kendricks as the forebearer of the modern falsetto. Understandably so! But I saw a TV show about 50s pop music. And there was a video of Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers. They sang a tune (it wasn't "Why Do Fools..."). And I could have sworn that Frankie sounded like he was in his late 20's. But he wasn't. He was only THIRTEEN! The clarity, sense of melody and harmony and the maturity for someone that age was just simply amazing.

Just be informed that this thread is from a true Temptations fan.

"If you decide to make me blue, I'll be in trouble".

By Clay (66.73.176.250) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 08:17 am:

DF,
I think it a matter of taste,like,dis-like,and love.
some people eat steak, while some people prefer no meat at all. You say you're a true Temptations fan,if this is true then continue to be a true fan,without trying to credit someone like Sam Cooke and Frankie Lymon as the forefathers of the modern Tenor singers. There were so many great modern ones before them. A guy who became a GREAT tenor named Cauruso was a bit before Sam, Frankie and had very little influence on either one of them. I think Motown had some of the greatest 1st and 2nd tenor in the world and the proof is in their record sales and worldwide popularity, names like,Michael Smokey, Marvin, Stevie, Eddie, David, Levi,Marv,Lionel, CP, and Bobby to name a few. Don't get me wrong I loved Sam Cooke and Frankies music and they both were extremely talented artist,but my memory of their work never gave me the impression that they were the forefathers of modern Tenor singers. Michael was younger than Frankie when he hit the airways. But,of course we're all intitled to ours taste,like,dis-like and love when it come to any ARTIST. Peace

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.153) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 09:16 am:

One of the reasons I like Eddie Kendricks' solo albums a lot is that in addition to his world-class falsetto, he would sing in his natural tenor more than he would with the Tempts. Of course, when there were 2-3 guys behind him with tenor range, there wasn't much call for him to do that. When you here him move from tenor to falsetto so smoothly, you could really appreciate his talent (the same could be said for Smokey). It is kind of sad that falsetto singing in R&B seems to be going the way of the dodo these days.

I was kind of young when it was first released, and the first time I heard the track "Eddie's Love" was in the late 80s. I remember my immediate reaction to it was "Oh, that's what Prince is trying to sound like."

...and on a humorous note, there was a barbershop quartet group that my parents went to see performing at a local high school a few years back that called themselves "Three Men and a Tenor".

Regards,
Ken

By DF (207.41.14.11) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 11:07 am:

You know what, Clay, You're right in one aspect.

Just like Louie v. Miles. Both are arguably the most influential trumpeters of all time. But I know folk who like Louie over Miles. And vice versa.

And yes, Ken, Eddie's transition from falsetto to Tenor was as smooth as silk! Of all of the falsettos after Eddie (Russell Thompkins, Ted Mills, Maxwell, even Prince), none could make that transition so effectively. The closest to do it may have been Marvin Gaye (no explanation necessary).

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 11:48 am:

The Temps were second to none, but Eddie Holman could switch in and out of falsetto during a song. Though not a Detroiter he made some great records in the 60's, and is revered on the Northern Soul scene over here.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

Two words to add to this discussion:

Clyde McPhatter. In the R&B era, probably the most influential tenor of them all.

By MelsMate (195.219.7.47) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 02:38 pm:

Ritchie,
Right-on to Clyde McPhatter.

By Nish (66.119.33.135) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 02:39 pm:

RITCHIE THANK YOU! Clyde McPhatter is probably the ONE. I mean, as far as bringing gospel inflection into a secular arena to a widespread audience, probably Clyde. Let me pull out my Dominoes!!!! I mean, his melisma is flawless. Voice, pure honey. The feeling in his voice is soaked in soul.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 04:21 pm:

Hey Gang:
At the risk of sounding biased how about the man known as Mr.Excitement- Detroit-born & raised JACKIE WILSON.
Peace,
KevGo

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 05:52 pm:

Yes, Kev - and remember who his idol was? (Jackie was his replacement in Billy Ward's Dominoes..)

By Fury13 (209.69.165.10) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 06:34 pm:

Taking nothing away from Mr. McPhatter, but... props to Nolan Strong. Talk about being able to go to from falsetto to natural tenor without a ripple...

By Nish (66.119.33.167) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 09:34 pm:

Kev, Jackie is the cat's meow. His interpretation of "I'm Gonna Move To The Outskirts of Town" with the Dominoes is PRICELESS.

And Nolan Strong is equally awesome. But he covered "That's What Your Doing To Me." A Clyde tune!

By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

GREETINGS ALL: EDDIE KENDRICKS WAS AN INTREGAL PART OF A GROUP, WITH SEVERAL MEMBERS CAPABLE OF TAKING THE LEAD FOR A GIVEN SONG. EDDIE WAS, I BELIEVE, MORE PROMENENT IN THE EARLY DAYS, BECAUSE PAUL AND DAVID WOULD SWITCH OFF MORE ON THE SECOND TENOR PARTS, WITH EDDIE DOING ALL OF THE FIRST TENOR'S. DAVID RUFFIN, HOWEVER, SOON BECAME MORE THE FOCAL POINT OF THE GROUP...THEN DENNIS EDWARDS. IT'S DIFFICULT TO COMPARE EDDIE TO EITHER SOLO FIRST TENORS, OR FIRST TENORS WHO DID THE LEAD ON VIRTUALLY EVERY RECORDING FOR THEIR GROUP. PLUS, A LOT OF THE TEMPTATIONS MATERIAL WAS PERFORMANCE BASED, AND DIFFICULT TO PERFORM LIVE, DUE TO THE STRENUOUS DANCE ROUTINES THE GROUP PERFORMED. HOWEVER, ALL THOSE MENTIONED ON THIS THREAD WERE GREATS, AND THANKFULLY...ALL HAD THEIR OWN UNIQUE STYLE!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 01:47 pm:

Ritchie:
I'm fully aware that Jackie Wilson admired Clyde - it's just that every time legendary tenors of Rock & Soul music are mentioned, folks forget the contributions Jackie made to the genre (which has been several). His version of "Danny Boy" is considered by some folks to be the definitive rendiiton. No offense - I dig Clyde. But let's not forget Mr. Excitement.

Nish:
I agree with you. "Outskirts.." is indeed a gem.

Peace,
KevGo

By Stingbeelee (155.139.50.14) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 04:30 pm:

When it comes to the early rock and roll legendary tenors, I'll go with the "big four"; Clyde McPhatter, Sam Cooke, Jackie Wilson and Little Willie John. Nolan Strong, Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye and Eddie Kendricks followed afterward. Clyde was probably the first great tenor out of a rock and roll group. Sam probably had the greatest influence on soul music, as he was one of the few blacks that had some control over their career. Jackie Wilson was probably the best all around performer, and had to sometimes sing through dreck that his company had him record. Little Willie John was probably the one who suffered through the least amount of promotion and the one least remembered by the general public. These four could sing the want ads and it would sound good. Frankie Lymon had a wonderful voice (how did they have him sing the ABC's of love) but his career was probably too short.

By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 07:02 pm:

HOPE I'M NOT GETTING TOO FAR OFF THE BEATEN PATH, BUT...HOW ABOUT FRANKIE VALLI FOR GREAT "FALSETTO TENORS"? CAN WE CHALK ONE UP FOR THE "GOOMBA'S"??? WORST "FALSETTO"... BRIAN WILSON OF THE "BEACH BOY'S",,, ALTHOUGH HIS SONG WRITING GENIUS MORE THAN MAKES UP FOR IT!!!STU

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 07:05 pm:

Another name to stir into the brew - Bill Kenny.

By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 07:49 pm:

P.S. TO LAST POST. JUST READ THAT BILLY MITCHELL DIED AFTER A LONG ILLNESS. BILLY MITCHELL, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW, SANG LEAD ON MANY OF THE SONG'S FOR THE "CLOVERS"...AN EARLY R&B GROUP FROM THE 50'S AND 60'S. AMONG THEIR HIT'S..."ONE MINT JULIP", "DEVIL OR ANGEL", AND "LOVE POTION NO. 9". BILLY MITCHELL...R.I.P.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.229.82) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 08:00 pm:

There were numerous great God gifted tenor voices (I think that's how He meant it to be, showing his diversity just like He does with all His creation)and Clay hit the nail on the head, it all a matter of preference, thank God. But, history bears out the fact that there were many great tenors, with exceptional capabilities long before Sam Cook or Frankie Lyman, but no one can deny their talent.

But Detroit sure had a great share of great voices, Marvin, Tony Michale from the Reflections, J.J. Barnes, Abe from the Detroit Emeralds, Robin Miller from Travis are some of the great Detroit area tenors I have had the honor of working with.

Its a matter of preference.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.229.82) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 08:09 pm:

I almost forgot about a session I did at United in the early seventies with another great pop tenor, Niel Sedaka. Till I worked on this project I never realized how good this guy was. Clay, has heard this unfinished project and can comment on it too.

Ed

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 08:17 pm:

Ed,
Good point on Neil Sedaka. when I was young I thought he was a joke. As I got older ( and a little wiser ) I listened to him with more mature ears. Old Neil was OK. a wonderful writer that knew how to put a song across. My most humble apologies Mr. Sedaka for my youthful ignorance.

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 09:01 pm:

Once in the late 70s or early 80s,my wife recieved free tickets to see Neil Sadaka at Pine Nob.I didn't want to go. We went anyway. I was blown away.The guy was great.He brought his young at the time daughter out to sing and was she ever soulful.

P.S. I've played behind Clyde Mc Phatter, and Nolan Strong, and your all right, there all great.
SLAINTE VA,LYNN

By Mark Speck (65.56.216.59) on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 09:18 am:

Another passing in the great tenor department: Louis Williams of the Ovations. He was influenced heavily by Sam and it shows.

Both Louis and Billy Mitchell will be dearly missed.

Best,

Mark

By JoeR (170.148.10.23) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:42 am:

Hi DF...

Long time Temptation fan here(and new poster). There was a different quality in Frankie's voice; for me his was more "full" for a lack of a better term. Eddie (whom I patterned my tenor after) was more silky and had more "treble" than Frankie's. For me, Eddie's tenor is sweeter than Frankie yet they had their own distinctice and successful styles.

I currently sing with doo wop group Earl Lewis & The Channels. We just recently performed with Frankie Lymon's Legendary Teenagers this month and two original members continue to perform; Jimmy Merchant and Herman Santiago along with Frankie's little brother Lewis Lymon (of the Teenchords), Bass singer Bobby Jay and current lead singer Timothy Wilson (of Tiny Tim & The Hits "Wedding Bells" fame).

You can visit the Channels at http://mypages.netopia.com/channels and the Teenagers at http://www.theteenagers.com

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.11) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:50 am:

Lynn Bruce,
Wow,you played behind the fantastic
Clyde McPhatter,that is awesome,do you recall any material he sang,as I am a BIG,BIG,fan of Clyde McPhatters and have a lot of his records,not only by himself but with the Dominoes.
I also like Nolan Strong.What great memories you must have.
many thanks,
MEL.

By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:53 am:

JOER; WELCOME. PLEASE CONTINUE TO OFFER YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS FORUM. WHERE WILL YOU BE APPEARING, AND ANY PERFORMANCES SCHEDULED FOR THE L.A. AREA??? STU

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.11) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:55 am:

Lynn,
Rather than take anything away from this fine thread I have gone over to your thread(Lynn Bruce drums2)and would appreciate anything you recall about the late Clyde McPhatter.
With thanks,
MEL.

By JoeR (170.148.10.23) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:17 pm:

STUBASS -

Thanks so much for the welcome!

The Channels were in LA sometime in 1991, 4 years before I joined. I believe Richard Nader had the group out in LA along with the Jive Five and Johnny Maestro & The Brooklyn Bridge.

I try to keep our schedule updated on a weekly basis. I'll be sure to let you know if we ever come out to LA.

BTW - I'm the baby at 40 years next February.

JoeR - http://mypages.netopia.com/channels

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:27 pm:

JOER; "BROOKLYN BRIDGE" AS IN "THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN"??? WHAT ARE THEY DOING NOW? THANKS FOR THE INFO... STU

By JoeR (170.148.10.30) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:37 pm:

STUBASS -

These guys WORK. Johnny (originally from Manhattan) now lives in Sarasota, FL. or nearby on the Gulf Coast of Florida. He still sounds the same when he sings 'Sixteen Candles' and 'Step By Step' during his days with the Crests. You gotta hear their version of 'Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas' - wonderful!

Out of all the groups from that era, Johnny & The Bridge work year-round along with the Duprees (no original members which stirs controversy) and Little Anthony & The Imperials.

JoeR

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:38 pm:

STU:
Maestro & the Bridge are still performing in and around the oldies circuit, particularly the Northeast (NYC being their home base and regular stomping ground). They cut a CD over ten years ago that was sold whenever they toured.

Peace,
KevGo

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 12:52 pm:

JOER & KEVGO: THANKS FOR THAT INFO...STU

By thecount (64.53.165.115) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 07:21 pm:

HEY Joe,so glad to see you signed our Kontinentals guest book.I wish you could be there too,and all the CHANNELS along with EARL.Just last week LYNN BRUCE and I were at my house and we were trading our band day stories and days of on the road.I put on some doo-wop(what else) and LYNN said his favorite group when it comes to doo-wop was a group he was trying to remember,and as he was explaining the sound and the falsetto,I went and put on the EARL LEWIS and THE CHANNELS,he said,man thats it.In my opinion,the Channels was the best ever GLORIA,so many groups covered it,but today the Channels has it by a million miles.I won a bet not to long ago on who first recorded the song GLORIA,The Mills Bros.Many think it was the Cadillacs,but that was the next to follow.Anyhow,I was at the 23rd.U.G.H.A.celebration on NOV.26&27,1999 when you were ther with the "Rainbows","Emotions","Harptones","Five Discs","The Counts"etc.Joe Cavana and Joe Favolia of The "Emotions,invited me back stage to listin to the "Counts rehearse,and told Ronnie I,this is the COUNT,he is also a memember of U.G.H.A.Vicky Burgess from thr "Harptones said your with THE COUNTS?,I said no mam,I am the COUNT,she said well then you belong here then,and all the groups along with Earl and you of the CHANNELS made me feel so good,and when The Channels walked by me I got those chills that only a doo-wop lover can experience,and a lover of R&B,which brings everyone with that blood line to the forum.Now that doo-wop is starting to find a little more attention here,I think I will be visiting more here,and working on a forum of strickly DOO-WOP.If it goes good here,I'll post some of the pictures of the 1999 event,and the groups.Being we are in the FRANKIE LYMON subject,I have a great video which is very rare called "I Promise To Remember",all about FRANKIE and The Teenagers,A great story and video,some never seen before footage.About 1990,I was at an earlier U.G.H.A. Hall Of Fame show,and RONNIE ITALIANO dicovered that Frankie Lymon grave in ST.Raymond's,I think it was in the BRONX,didn't have a grave marker,Through Ronnies U.G.H.A. activities,money was raised and a marker was bought for Frankie Lymon.The tombstone now sits at the front window of (Ronnie I's)Clifton records.The script on the hesdstone reads,"We Promise To Remember".Ronnies dream is to remember Frankie Lymon and the oyher R&B pioneers.Hope to see you JOE,and hope you can hear us sometime do some doo-wop.5ive of us in the Kontinentals practice doo-wop,and we are currently working on that all time big hit maker by the CHANNELS,"THE CLOSER YOU ARE"(can we borrow EARL LEWIS?)Please visit again soon,and if you talk to Nick Santamaria,from the "CAPRIS,please tell him to get in touch with us.We also have "Moorse Code Of Love " down to a tee also,by the "CAPRIS"
Wow,I can ramble on like this forever,so,so sorry folks.But its do this,do that,doo-wop. "COUNT"

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.71) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 07:43 pm:

Count,
magic,now how about you
writing a book one day!
That would really be something.
your buddy,
Mel.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.81) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:28 pm:

Count,
I Have just been turned on to the Channels
and
The closer you are.
On the Whirlin'Disc label.
Great stuff.
MEL.

By JoeR (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 05:13 pm:

COUNT - Thanks for your kind words! I remember that UGHA performance; the FIVE DISCS and THE EMOTIONS stick out in my mind. Vicky Burgess is still crooning with Willie, Dempsy & Raoul along with Marlowe Murray.

Although I sing with the CHANNELS I grew uo listening to Motown (thanks DAD!) when my folks threw house parties. I remember the first time I saw the Temps on TV was on the TCB special with the Supremes.

So glad to be a part of this cyber-family.

regards,
JoeR

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 05:53 pm:

Count, I just got thru telling Mel the same thing about Earl Lewis and the Channels and I flipped to this thread and see we are on the same wave-length. Still need that falsetto/tenor, give me a call. Better yet lets get together and quench that horrible thirst that develops singing along with the groups...

By thecount (64.53.143.173) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 01:16 pm:

Hey Joe,durring all the rambling on I did,I'am sorry I forgot the most important issue,and that is how great you sounded and looked along with EARL and all the CHANNELS on the PBS doo-wop specials.What was shown on the specials was really great,but all the DVD'S available shows so much more then what was shown on TV.Are you booked for VINNYS NOV.23rd. as I seen on VINNYS?I hpoe so as I'll be there to see also THE WRENDITIONS.On JAN.25th.I see your scheduled for that show,along with THE WRENDITIONS,VITO BALSAMO(from the salutations)THE DUBS,CLASSICS,KENNY VANCE(planotones),ETERNALS,THE EXCELLENTS,SHIRLEY REEVES.As soon as I'am done here,I'am calling VINNY to make my reservations for that date.See you soon Joe.Doo-wop and ITIALA-WOP,is where it's at.I also love those HER-MONY Groups(Girl doo-wop groups).More latter,and love to all.Thanx Ralph for all the things music and doo-wop your allowing here.
"COUNT"

By dowoplady (24.46.200.124) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 02:42 pm:

Count - I musta met you (or at least seen you) many times! I have been to Vinnie's Italia doowop, and have been a ugha member since 1979, having been at all the shows you mentioned! And as to Joe from the Channels - I can vouch he's a super guy and super singer! Joe it's great to see a "familiar" face here! The Channels (both back then and now) are one of THE best groups on the circuit, in talent, stage performance, and choice of songs they sing. Hey, they do their own material, not everyone else's (like many of the doowop groups do on the circuit today)! And they sing to perfection! And the fact that they are all good folks makes it extra special! Anyway, Joe, we'll see you later this month at UGHA for sure! And Count, if you'll be at the Nov. 30 UGHA show, come on over and introduce yourself to us!!!

Your friend in harmony

Nikki
http://www.harmonytrain.com

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 04:08 pm:

AS MUCH AS I LOVE EDDIE AND FRANKIE,THEY BOTH STUDIED AT THE FEET OF THE MASTER...CLYDE MCPHATTER,I DONT THINK I NEED SAY MORE.

By Eli (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 02:04 am:

And, AND ta dah... we must not forget the one, the only Damon Harris who did a darn good Eddie and then some. Also William " Poogie" Hart of the Delfonics. Little Jimmy Scott And John Edwards of Spinners fame.
The world of Gospel had many, and Charles Mc Clain of the Gospel Keynotes and The Gospelaires of Dayton Ohio comes to mind.

By Eli (205.188.209.38) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 02:24 am:

Donnie Elbert and Little Joe Cook of "Peanuts" fame. Matt Covington of the Philly Devotions.

By Counterpoint (68.63.4.162) on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 10:45 pm:

Eddie's voice had a tonal quality that touched the heart of women. It was unique.