By g-wiz (68.43.160.189) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 03:20 pm:

lawrence did some mixing for me at hdh studio's on grandriver around 1976 ,lawrence told me he used to work for motown ,i dont remember seeing his name on any credits or any of the funk brothers talking about him,i saw a news show a few years ago that he killed his wife in la and is doing life,,
my question is what did he do at motown ,anybody know him or have a horn story,
thanks glenn lasiuta

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.151) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

Lawrence Horn was an engineer "PAR EXCELLANCE" at Motown. Lawrence as I remember did much of the Jackson 5 and some of the Diane Ross sessions (both solo and with the group) along with Russ Terrana. A very talented mixer!!!

About 5 years ago the now late Andrew Smith (Funk Brothers Drummer) called me and told me of the trial. He sent some newspaper clippings. This seemed so unlike Lawrence. I worked with him when I was consultant to Tapetronics, a duplication plant doing all of the cassette work for Motown until they were sold in the 90's as well as my earlier times at Motown in the late 60's. Everything seems to be fine with him then. What ever happened, it seems highly unlike Lawrence.

By John Lester (213.123.155.248) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 02:53 am:

Just check almost anything Junior Walker did in the early days.

Lawrence was an engineer, and you can see the result of his work by looking for his check letter "L" on American 45's...

Lawrence also worked with HDH after they left Motown.

We all know about Russ.......we are waiting for his and Ralph's book!!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:12 am:

John,
I know there is a book in my head. If I could just shake it loose......

By g-wiz (68.43.160.189) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 08:28 am:

i was with clarence paul in vegas in nov96 (not sure of the date) ,we were in my room talking about motown i told him he should write a book he said he didnt know where to begin,i told him to get a small tape recorder and each day do a chapter then get a ghost writer,he said was a great idea 3 mos later he passed ,the point is if you have something to say dont wait do it now,

glenn lasiuta

By HW (68.37.217.106) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 09:37 am:

There was a TV film of the L.T. Horn story that focused mainly on the trial. Tragic story. He engineered so so many of the early recordings and continued at Motown for years.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 09:39 am:

Good point Glenn,
I don't think I was aware that Clarence had passed. He was the first producer the Sunliners had.I'm sure he had some stories to tell.

By g-wiz (68.43.160.189) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:56 am:

hi ralph
i first met clarence in 1974 working with clarence and johnny powers on the innervision tracks with the funk bros,clerence gave me the best advice that is still used today,he said if you want to make a friend find out what he does wrong and do it with him,lol

get stared on your book ralph

By g-wiz (68.43.160.189) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:08 am:

ralph
were you with the sunlinners who used to play at the bowling alley on outer dr and van dyke around 1965 or so , i was a regular there on fri and sat nite's what did you play drums,?

glenn

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 01:33 pm:

Glenn,
I played keyboards.I was with the group until 1966. I don't remember playing at any bowling alley though. Maybe this was after I left the group.

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 08:09 am:

Could that have been Ginos Falcon Lounge,or am I getting my streets mixed up?

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.77) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 08:56 am:

I hired Lawarance Horn. If I had not found him pleasing, as he drove up in his 1956 Plymouth sedan, and he applied for the job, in my department, he would never have been heard of, or have been able to do what he did.

I knew Lawrence very well. He contacted me during the period that he was undersuspecion, but not under arrest. He had stored a bunch of out of date recording machines in my garage for about six years without paying a penny. This was under the guise that he wanted to "upgrade" them.

To make a long story short: In my opinion, based on close personal contact with Lawrence, and on the evidence: It is my considered opinion that he is a cold blooded killer.

This is a fact that has caused me to break into tears many times. If I had not decided to hire him, those ladies would be alive today.

Can you imagine how that reality makes me feel?

It makes me feel like I am a victum of the succuss of Motown. What about Gerald MacFarland? What about Beans Bowles?

One day they they were there, next day they were gone. They paid the price. I remember.

None of this means anything.

I think that Beethoven is superior to the Supremes.

I have no doubt that, just as it was in 1900, the time will come again when, in 2100, no one will have ever heard of Motown, but they will still know of Beethoven.

This is as it should be. After all, as Western Electric used to say: QUALITY COUNTS!

Quality counts! Hah! All you fools reading this have no idea about what Western Electric was, or how Bell Labs influanced sound recording as we knew it.

For that matter, the typical teen-aged bopper, if asked about what "sound recording" is, would say something to the effect of "They do it in a courtroom, unless they send the jurists home due to a technicality."

It's all crap!

Mike McLean

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:36 am:

Lynn,
I think they did play Gino's, but it was after I left the band. I seem to remember going there to see them.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:45 am:

Mike,
Have you ever looked at the history of the classical composers we now hold in such high esteem? Don't you realize that they were the " heavy metal " musicians of their times and they were subject to much critisism from the so-called proper musical critics of the time. Think of the possibilities here. 2102..the complete etudes of Jerry Lee Lewis. I'm lovin' it!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:48 am:

Mike,
As far as L. Horn.There was nothing you could have done to change all that would happen. Not your fault. In all honesty, the guy always made me a little uneasy.

By Steve L. (209.100.86.4) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

Mike,
Western Electric appears in just about every Pyschology 101 textbook for the "Hawthorne Effect"
which was noted from their Hawthorne factory in Cicero, Il. In addition, I've seen many movies from the 1930's have the credit "Sound by Western Electric". So I bet at least a few people know a little bit of your reference to Western Electric.
Oh yeah, they invented the vacuum tube & electronic sound reproduction.
Bell Labs - The transistor.
Not all fools...

By OntheOne (67.25.176.86) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 05:32 pm:

Read all about the infamous Lawrence Horn. The link and a copy of the text is below.

http://www.splcenter.org/cgi-bin/goframe.pl?refname=/intelligenceproject/ip-4f10.html

Murder by the Book

By Brian Levin


Recipe for murder

Contract killer James Perry used Hit Man and another Paladin book, How to Make a Disposable Silencer, Volume II, to plan a triple execution in 1993. Hit Man was written under a pseudonym, Rex Feral, in 1983. The Silencer book was also published that same year under a pseudonym. Since then, both books have sold in excess of 13,000 copies each.

Following specific instructions from Hit Man, Perry executed three people in Silver Springs, Md., just outside Washington, D.C., on the night of March 3, 1993. Perry shot both Mildred Horn and Janice Saunders, a home care nurse, three times in the eyes with a modified AR-7 rifle from a distance of three feet. The two women cared for Mildred Horn�s 8-year-old quadriplegic son, Trevor, who was suffocated to death by Perry the same evening.

Perry had been hired to commit the murders by Lawrence Horn. Horn wanted his ex-wife, Mildred, and his son, Trevor, killed so he could reap the proceeds of a $1.7 million medical malpractice settlement awarded to his son after the boy sustained debilitating injuries during a hospital stay.

Perry, a native of Detroit, carefully followed over two dozen instructions from Hit Man to plan and commit the murders and then to flee from the crime scene. He relied on the book�s guidance in making solicitations to and in accepting payment from Lawrence Horn. Just as Hit Man instructed its readers, Perry chose an AR-7 rifle, obscured the gun�s serial number and affixed a silencer to it before shooting his victims. He removed ejected shells from the crime scene and tussled some of the victims� belongings to make the murders appear to be part of a burglary -- again, just as the book recommended. To avoid detection after the murders, Perry followed the book�s instructions to disassemble the gun, file down its components, dump the pieces by the side of a road and flee the scene in a rental car bearing a stolen license plate.


Case dismissed, reinstated

Both Perry and Horn were tried and convicted for murder in Maryland state court. Perry was sentenced to death, while Horn was sentenced to life in prison without parole. After the murder convictions, the families of the victims filed civil wrongful death lawsuits in the U.S. District Court in Maryland to recover damages from Paladin Press.

In September 1996, U.S. District Court Judge Alexander Williams Jr. dismissed the civil case against Paladin Press on First Amendment grounds. While finding Hit Man to be "loathsome ... reprehensible and devoid of any significant redeeming social value," the court threw out the lawsuit because it believed that the book did not fall under any of the recognized areas of speech that are not protected by the First Amendment.

The victims� families appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. They were joined in their efforts by the National Victim Center, while Paladin Press� position was supported by a variety of publishing concerns and media organizations including ABC and The New York Times. In a lengthy opinion, the appellate court reversed the district court�s dismissal and remanded the case back down to the lower court for trial.

The appellate court held that a jury could find that Paladin "aided and abetted" Perry in the commission of the murders, even in the absence of a showing that Paladin had an ongoing relationship or was engaged in a conspiracy with Perry. Paladin�s stipulation of fact that Hit Man assisted Perry in the commission of the murders, coupled with the publisher�s stipulation that it intended the book to be sold to murderers, was enough to establish a claim for aiding and abetting the murders, the court ruled. The combination of detailed instructions, encouraging prose and the publisher�s intent, the court reasoned, could lead a jury to find that Paladin "aided and abetted" in the killing.


Training, not mere advocacy

The Fourth Circuit also held that the district court misapplied the standard for unlawful incitement to the unique facts of this case. In Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969), the U.S. Supreme Court held that political discourse that advocates crime can only be punished when it is likely to incite imminent criminal acts. The court of appeals found that the Brandenburg incitement test was inapplicable because Hit Man went beyond advocating crime to teaching it. Unlike abstract political advocacy about the desirability of violence, intentional and explicit instructions to commit violence are an extension of the crime itself, and thus are punishable, the court ruled.

The court of appeals opinion rejected claims by publishers, booksellers and news outlets that its decision would create new areas of liability for authors and journalists who communicate detailed accounts of real and fictional crimes. According to the court, Paladin�s "astonishing" stipulations that it both assisted Perry and intended its books to be purchased by criminals made the case unique.

Some observers believe that the court�s attempts to narrow the scope of its decision will not stop the precedent from being applied in other contexts. "Although the court was working with a narrow set of unique facts," said attorney David Greene, program director of the National Campaign for Freedom of Expression, "its opinion still exposes for punishment a wide variety of so-called �instructional� speech." Now that the Supreme Court has let the Hit Man ruling stand, courts around the country will have to decide how broadly to interpret the decision.



Attorney Brian Levin is an associate professor of criminal justice at the Richard Stockton College of New Jersey, where he also serves as director of the Center on Hate & Extremism. He is co-author of The Limits of Dissent: The Constitutional Status of Armed Civilian Militias (Aletheia Press, 1996) and the author of a forthcoming book, Hate and Justice in America (Aspen Publications, 1998).

By OntheOne (67.25.177.47) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 09:25 pm:

Another Lawrence Horn link.

http://www.cjr.org/year/99/5/firstprinciples.asp

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.60.127) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 12:29 am:

There seems to be a lot of sentiment to the effect that Lawrence T. (As he liked to be called.) (Horn) was a great member of the Motown creative team.

Killer or not, this means that he belongs on the forum!

I am going to contact the Maryland penal system and try to find out what options exist for creating a conduit that will permit Lawrence to contribute to the forum.

With all the time that he has on his hands, I would think that he could offer vast amounts of information from his memories.

What the Hell! The taxpayers of the State of Maryland are paying for his room and board. Let's see if we can salvage something out of this waste of the taxpayer's money.

Mike McLean

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 01:49 am:

MIKE; WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT A MAN WHO HIRES SOMEONE TO KILL HIS WIFE AND CHILD FOR THE PURPOSE OF PICKING UP SOME INSURANCE MONEY SHOULD BE REWARDED WITH THE OPPORTUNITY OF PARTICIPATING IN A CIVIL FORUM SUCH AS THIS ONE, ANY MORE THAN I WOULD PERSONALLY WELCOME OSAMA BIN LADIN'S DISCOURSE ON THE SONG "DISCO INFERNO". MR. HORN SHOULD HAVE REALIZED THAT WHEN HE ORDERED THE BRUTAL EXECUTION OF HIS WIFE AND SEVERLY DISABLED CHILD, THAT HE GAVE UP ANY RIGHT TO INTERACT WITH A NORMAL AND MORAL SOCIETY. I PERSONALLY HAVE NO DESIRE TO HEAR FROM MR. HORN, AND HOPE THAT HE LIVE'S OUT HIS LIFE IN AS MISERABLE A MANNER AS THE LAW ALLOWS. RESPECTFULLY...STU

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.230) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 02:24 am:

Stu,

I wasn't thinking of the fun he would have, I was thinking of the fun the forum would have learning about his vast activities and involvment in the story of Motown.

It would seem that what is priceless information from the mouth of a "good fellow," is sickening filth from the mouth of a dirty killer.

This seems irrational to me.

However, I agree with you: He turns my stomach. I appreciate your letting me know how you feel.

Perhaps his stories are not worth it.

Mike McLean

By N2U (63.188.32.129) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 02:45 am:

I would love to hear Bin Laden pontificate on Disco Inferno. We would know he's alive and Bush could dispatch the armed forces to get him while he's preoccupied dancing.

Don't forget Stu, Lawrence Horn produced "Shotgun," which is one helluva song.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 03:04 am:

MIKE & N2U: I APPRECIATE YOUR RESPONSE MIKE. I AM CERTAIN THAT MR. HORN COULD CONTRIBUTE MANY VALUABLE INSIGHTS TO WHAT WE DISCUSS ON THIS FORUM AND ENHANCE OUR APPRECIATION OF THE MUSIC...HOWEVER...I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN WE MUST SACRIFICE OUR PERSONAL PLEASURES FOR THE SAKE OF JUSTICE. THANKS...STU ................. N2U...YOU'RE KILLIN ME...STUBASS

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 10:21 am:

I have to agree with StuBass on this. I think Mr. Horn's presence on this forum would be inappropriate.

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.41.84) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

I guess that hangs it. There is no sense having Horn make postings that are deleted by Ralph as fast as they appear.

I am not going to make any further effort toward this idea.

Mike McLean

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 02:56 pm:

Thanks Mike.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.228.73) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 10:39 pm:

I think the Lawrence we all knew would not be the same person today. His actions appear to illustrate that well. I don't think any of us would know how to respond to him. Charity demands we leave this one alone.

Let's just pray for Lawrence.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 11:29 pm:

ED & MIKE; AMEN TO THAT...HOWEVER, I JUST HAVE TROUBLE GETTING THAT FAR PAST THE VICTIMS...STU

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.130) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 12:18 am:

StubAss:

I really think that the proper use of some Caps. would be very flattering: It took me a long time to realize that it was StuBass, and not StubAss.

OK! Lets take a look at the victums:

1. The Wife and Lawrence had been fighting for years.

2. The Son was a "Vegetable," thanks to medical malpractice.

3. The Nanny was not on the hit list. The fact that this totally innocent person was snuffed is an affront to one's sense of fair play of the highest order.

I figure that Lawrence reasoned that his bull headed wife had been unreasonable for years, and the costs of her divorcing him had ruined him.

In addition, he felt that it would be better if his Son were put out of his misery, considering the fact that he was a vegetable.

The above level of felonous thinking is rather typical of the passions that lead to murder in an "ordinary" murder case.

The real tragedy was the fact that Lawrence hired a fool to do the hit. I true professional would never have botched the job such as to kill the innocent Nanny.

Of course, it can be argued that to commit first degree murder is a botch job, period. Just like the justice system's botch job that Lawrence got life, while James Perry got the chair.

It is clear that Lawrence planned, at lenght, in concert with James Perry, to kill at least two people. Why should Perry get death, while Horn gets life?

Is this the justice system punishing Perry for botching the job and killing the Nanny, while being easy on Horn for only wanting two out of the way?

Hog Wash! They both should have gotten the same penalty!

About nine months before he was arrested, Horn and I went to the Rusty Pelican, in Glendale, during happy hour, and he tried to get me to invest in his legal defense. He promised me that when he was aquitted, and he got the money, he would reward me with a very favorable profit on my investment.

I politely declined. Too speculative for this dumb bunny.

Horn had a live-in girlfriend who was devoted to him. She sincerely believed in his innocence. I spoke to her many times, as I tried to deal with getting all those multi-track recorders out of my garage that he had dropped off over the years. I felt sorry for her. It was clear that she deeply loved him, and felt that he was a wronged victum.

There are a million stories in the Naked City. This has been one of them.

Mike McLean

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 12:39 am:

WOW MIKE; THANKS OR THE INFO. TRULY INTERESTING STORY. YOU CERTAINLY KNOW THE FACTS OF THIS CASE WITH GREAT DETAIL...AND SINCE YOU HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH ONE OF THE PRINCIPALS, IT GIVES YOU INSIGHT THAT OTHERS MAY NOT HAVE...HOWEVER, I'M ALSO SURE THAT YOU WOULD AGREE THAT BEING PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN THE SITUATION WOULD MOST CERTAINLY...FOR ANY OF US...CLOUD ONE'S OBJECTIVITY. I APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORT TO POINT OUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE THE POSITIVE CHARACTERISTICS OF YOUR FRIEND (FORMER OR CURRENT), AND RESPECT YOUR POSITION, WHICH MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN MY OWN. LOOK FORWARD TO DISCUSSING MUSIC WITH YOU IN THE NEAR FUTURE. STU........P.S. THE CAPS ARE A BAD HABIT FROM MY NEWSCASTING DAYS...BUT STU-BASS OR STUB-ASS...WHATEVER MAKES YOU HAPPY!

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.130) on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 01:09 am:

Dear Stu,

Thanks for the feedback.

Lawrence Horn should have been put to death for what he did.

As long as tax dollars are supporting him, I figure that his storehouse of memories, from his VAST (i lIkE cApS tOo) involvment in the affairs of Motown, should be made available to the forum.

However, it seems that the matter is closed.

The Lawrence T. Horn story is vast. He was for several years the Recording Engineering Supervisor. He hired Cal Harris, who went on to be the exclusive recording engineer for Lionel Richie and the Commadors, for many, many years.

Up until the point when Brian Holland, Eddie Holland, Lamont Dosier, David L. Clark, and Robert Dennis all resigned from Motown at about the same time, (and formed HDH, at the Tower Theatre) Lawrence was in the creative (mixing wise) "drivers seat" of the Motown hit engine that was pumping out one hit after another, such as "Baby Love," "Come See About Me," and "Shotgun."

I can understand how your loathing of this dirty murdering rAt bAsTaRd would cause you to proclaim the value of ignoring all that neat stuff that Horn could post.

However, I am not one to avoid a bargain on an old jet engine from the aircraft of the Korean War era, such as the F-86 "Sabre Jet" when the titanium can be sold on the scrap market for a profit, even if I loath war.

Horn is in the slammer. His sentance has been pronounced. He is paying his debt to society.

This does not change the fact that he has vast amounts of information in his head that would be of value to the forum.

Ed Wolfrum wants us to pray for Lawrence.

I say: Now that we have him locked in the stall, with a hay bail under his puss, and his udders hanging there, lets hook up our milking machine and get some of those stories!

Love you Stu, and I love the forum!

Mike McLean

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.42.29) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 01:19 am:

Here is a picture of Lawrence, taken in my living room in the house at 15911 St Marys, Detroit.

That wallpaper was selected by my first wife. She is the most jealous person I have ever known. Just because I was interested in the Swinging Movement (wife swapping) does not give her licence to heave a plate full of pork and beans at me just before the second picture was taken.





I hope that you forum fans of the lurid find this interesting.

Mike McLean

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 09:22 am:

Mike,
You never let us down. Thanks for the great pics. Is this the wife that had the sister you fixed me up with?

By cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 09:47 am:

Hey, I came on to this forum because of my love of Motown and because I am a fellow artist. I am by no means a teenager and am aware of the history of sound recordings and engineering. I had no idea that this foum could become so acrid and gossipy. I must say it is interesting reading and I am fascinated. Keep up the "good" work.

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.132) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:48 am:

Ralph,

The image is of Karen.

1963-1971 Karen
My age.
You be the judge.
Jealous.

1973-1991 Susan
10 years younger then me.
Quite good looking.
Spent too much money.

2001-2002 Helen
25 years older then me.
See picture below.
The great love of my life.



It was with the loss of Helen that I started to act silly. I still burst into tears now and then when something reminds me of her.

Mike McLean

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.60.128) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 02:00 pm:

On September 19, 1964 I married Karen. Here is a picture taken that day. Left to Right: Karen's Mother, my Mother, my Dad.



Also taken that day. Left to right: Dad, Mom, Me, Frank Gentile (he married us), Karen, her Mom, her Dad.



As "The Count" would say: "What's this !@#$%^&* doing on Lawrence Horn's thread?"

Mike McLean

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.60.128) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 02:05 pm:

Hold on there! Something went wrong! I'll be back!

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.60.128) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 02:10 pm:

On September 19, 1964 I married Karen. Here is a picture taken that day. Left to Right: Karen's Mother, my Mother, my Dad.



Also taken that day. Left to right: Dad, Mom, Me, Frank Gentile (he married us), Karen, her Mom, her Dad.



As "The Count" would say: "What's this !@#$%^&* doing on Lawrence Horn's thread?"

Mike McLean