By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 01:04 pm:

JUST CAUGHT THE SUPREMES "REFLECTIONS" CUT DRIVING INTO WORK. HEARD IT SO MANY TIMES BEFORE, BUT CRANKED UP THE BASS LINE. NOT TECHNICALLY DIFFICULT, BUT WHAT FEEL...IT COULD ONLY BE ONE...

By padgburyman (195.93.49.10) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 01:40 pm:

Hey Stu,

Talk about feel, I am trying (so hard) to learn the bass line to 'What's Going On'. The notes are oh so simple, but the 'feel' is something else!

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 02:48 pm:

I forgot the guy's name who mentioned it, but, yet another seemingly simple part with MASSive, FAT feel that I find not easy to cover is "Don't Mess With Bill". REFLECTIONS is a fave of mine as well Stu.

In addition, I've long worked like a demon playing on INNER CITY BLUES. Only years later was I told it's 2 Bassists! Got my chops together on that ditty.

Man I love playin bass.

By John Lester (217.40.233.99) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 03:25 pm:

I would lay my life on Jamerson doing the Supremes' Reflections......

Wot! Who said that aint worth much!!!!

LOL

By Bradburger (172.180.218.168) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 08:05 pm:

The bass on Reflections is Jamerson.

According to Dr Licks's SITSOM book the track was cut in LA and he overdubbed his bass on it.

Apparently he was a bit miffed as to why he & the rest of the Funks didn't do it in the first place!

Cheers

Paul

By Caleb (209.244.237.224) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 09:48 pm:

Basswork on Reflections is complete badness.

By Flytoo (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 08:54 am:

Jamerson's bass playing is complete badness period! I'm trying to learn Bernadette but I'm not having much luck. Does anybody know if there is a tab sheet available? I've got the Dr. Lick's book but I still can't figure it out. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:25 am:

GREETINGS ALL; SPEAKING OF THE REFLECTIONS TUNE...IN ADDITION TO THE BASS KICK...LARRY AND PADAGBURYMAN BY THE WAY...I BELIEVED THAT I "HAD THE FEEL"...WHO KNOWS BUT PERHAPS I WAS TOO STUPID AT THE TIME...AND AT THAT TIME SAW JAMES JAMERSON AS JUST THE CAT PLAYING THE MOWTOWN SESSIONS...NOT THE TRUE LEGEND HE HAS BECOME...BUT THAT RAMBLING ASIDE...CAN ANY ONE TELL ME THE TRUE SOURCE OF THE "QUASAR" SOUND THROUGHOUT THE SONG? WAS IT A SLIDING , AMPLIFIED STRING INSTRUMENT (GUITAR PERHAPS) OR SOME EARLY FORM OF SYNTHISIZED ELECTRONICS...OR A COMBINATION OF BOTH? I'D APPRECIATE THE ANSWER...STU

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:27 am:

Where are you flytoo?
I'd be happy to consult on this.
You may want to check out Bassland.net
If Bob Lee hasn't posted anything (see Jamerson link), write him privately.

You've heard the new SITSOM CD? Where the line is solo'd.

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:28 am:

Stu,
I'm guessing a Bob Moog device.

By SteveS (68.41.251.33) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 12:31 pm:

Stu,

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was a Theremin (a device which is a whole story in itself) which was also used on Good Vibrations.

SteveS

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 12:48 pm:

STEVE; I HEAR THE SIMILARITY. NEED TO CHECK OUT "PET SOUNDS" TO LISTEN FOR THE DEVICE. GREAT ALBUM ANYWAY...MAY EVEN SNEAK A LISTEN TO "GOD ONLY KNOW'S"...BEAUTIFUL ROCK BALLAD...STU

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 01:02 pm:

Stu,
The sound you're wondering about was actually a signal generator used for testing electronic equipment. My brother came up with that one.

By SteveS (68.41.251.33) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 02:54 pm:

Ralph,

That makes a lot more sense. The Theremin is a really wacky gizmo, and I probably hallucinated reading that it was used on Reflections.

SteveS

By gabriele (213.45.200.162) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 02:56 pm:

hi,everybody...i like too a lot "reflections"and the main reason why i love it so much its that super-funky bass line...i think if you have a so big groove and beat on the rhythm you could do anything on it,you already have a big part of the song...i bet it would b good to here it only bass and drums...

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 03:46 pm:

RALPH; THAT MAKES SENSE. PLEASE THANK MY "MAIN MAN" RUSS FOR THAT INFO. STU

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 03:48 pm:

"Reflections" was one of the songs I had in mind when I said I'd like to hear a whole cd in the style of "Bernadette" and "...Hangin' On" on the SITSOM soundtrack. Others off the top of my head-both the Gladys and Marvin versions of "Grapevine" (the Gladys version has one of the all-time top ten Motown basslines); "Someday We'll Be Together" ; "Needle In a Haystack" ; "Reach Out.." etc etc
Steve K.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 03:51 pm:

You're welcome Stu.I had mentioned on some thread that my brother's mind was basically an audio cartoon. The Reflections effect proves it.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 06:30 pm:

Wow Ralph, I've always wondered about that effect. I would like to hear that track stripped down ...

Wouldn't it be cool if you could hear stripped down tracks right in Motown's studio a, sort of a visitor's guide to how they put the music together?

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 07:39 pm:

Sue,
I think that would be a good lesson for the uninitiated. Isolate any given vocal track, especially background vocals, and you'll hear all sorts of things. With my sessions you would hear me talking to and cueing the girls at the appropriate places. Isolate Marvin Gaye's vocal track and I assure you you would hear him chewing his gum like a mad man. Things like that.

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:46 pm:

Ralph,
Great info about Marvin Gaye & gum chewing! Maybe that's the secret to great singing...
-Steve

By testdummy (165.121.215.226) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:55 pm:

test

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:57 pm:

I was once recording at Sunset Sound in Hollywood in the mid-80's. A 2nd engineer and I hit it off. He took me upstairs to studio B. Proceeded to throw on the original 24 track master of a Stevie Wonder HIT (title i don't remember, coulda been Boogie on Reggae Woman). We didn't have a lot of time, but, I listened to Stevie's tracks solo'd, specially his Moog Bass line. THAT was a unique experience...one in a million.

We also heard a John Entwistle (bassist from the who) solo project. It had 4-6 bass lines on it. It was a mess, course we were just ridin faders.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:36 pm:

Or the BRAND of gum Steve.

By padgburyman (195.93.49.10) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 01:56 pm:

Flytoo

Can't help with Bernadette, but try www.mobass.fsbusiness.co.uk for tabs you won't find on the big tab sites. They are laid out nice too, but there aren't many.

Best of luck


Geoff

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 03:36 pm:

Flytoo:
I was kind of disappointed at first that Dr.Licks book didn't have tab (the James Brown book does). But now I'm glad it doesn't. Tab is an interpretation by someone of how something was played; which fret, which string, open string, etc. It is a rewarding experience to try to figure out on your own how Jamerson played a line. You'd think, "How'd he do that?!!", then sit down and figure out the possibilities. I guess it just ends up a bit more serious study than just learning the line. It might even force you to change your playing technique.

Stripped down tracks:
I'd personally would prefer remixed rather isolated tracks. Part of the genius of the rhythm section was how what they played fit in with the whole. So having specific instruments (bass!) at the forefront of the mix would keep it in context. Might be more commercially feasible too,

Background vocals:
I want to hear "Dancing In The Street" background vocals. Who did the great arrangements for that, or are those parts written by the songwriters?

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 06:12 pm:

Larry-
Boogie on Reggae Woman is one of my favorite songs! I guess that really was a treat.
-Steve

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 07:02 pm:

Steve,
Yeah, Stevie's material (specially the older stuff) is in a class by itself. One man and his machines and his multi-inner voices. His handicap served to increase his sensitivity to the inter-relationships of sounds/instruments etc. Again, his moog bass work was just way out of control, but, in the mix was phukkin groovin.

I remember thinking, there's NO WAY I could play that stuff on 4 strings. I'd have to learn Key's to get that. It was an experience I'll simply NEVER forget. It was a blessing to have been let in on that stuff.

The lesson for me??? Same lesson as today...
If you relate with another person, a new person with true respect and warmth, GOOD things can come back. I can be a hermit artist type, but, I wasn't that night, and I was instantly rewarded.

Wild.

By HW (68.37.217.106) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 08:30 pm:

Some great stuff re Jamerson and a few corrections and notes:

- Research for the Supremes box set (11 years after Allan's book so don't blame him) confirms that REFLECTIONS was cut first in Detroit, not LA.
- It was THE HAPPENING that had been recorded first in LA, but HDH were dissatisfied with the results and brought it back home for the real deal. It was completely re-recorded at Hitsville.
- It is GREAT to finally know what the hell that sound is in REFLECTIONS. The original backing track doesn't have it - it was overdubbed at a later stage.
- Check out the 2-CD Deluxe Edition of the What's Going On album if you haven't already: it includes an instrumental remix of the song WHAT'S GOING ON, leading off with the bass line alone.
- Unless I missed something (and if I did, apologies) I am not sure Bob Babbitt agrees that INNER CITY BLUES features two bass players. It's just him.
- Many Marvin Gaye masters are the most difficult to reconstruct mixes on because of his incessant gum-chewing, particularly in the 70s and particularly on background vocal overdubs.

Just thought I'd pitch in...

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 08:43 pm:

QUESTION FROM FELLOW BASSIST TONY BLANCHARD TO ME...I CAN'T ANSWER. ON "TEARS OF A CLOWN"...CERTAIN RE-MIXES HAVE AN OVERLY BUSY JAMERSON FEEL, AS OPPOSED TO STANDARD TRACK...SUPPOSED TO BE BABBITT...WAS THAT BUSY BASSLINE REMOVED FROM THE ORIGINAL TRACK??? DOES ANYONE KNOW, OR EVEN UNDERSTAND THIS QUESTION??? STU

By larry (12.141.160.25) on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:02 pm:

HW,
I'd love to hear from Bob Babbitt on Make Me Wanna Holler (Inner City Blues).
One has to really get in the zone to get close to the performance and feel. Listen close in headphones. Sounds like 2 parts in the verses. Either way, for me a real test in stamina. Hittin' the odd minor 3rd then instantly jumping right back into the 4-5-7 bubbly shit is WILD.
Hoo Loard.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 03:50 am:

That weird sound in reflections.Was it also used in 'forever came today'?? are there any more examples on that sound on motown records of that era??

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 11:25 am:

Soulboy:
On another thread I mentioned the "phasing" effect used on the Supremes' 1970 hit "Nathan Jones." Also check out the sound effect montage on the Four Tops' "(In These) Changing Times" (1971) and the echo effects on the Temptations' version of "Smiling Faces Sometimes" from "The Sky's The Limit" LP (along with some kick-a-- bass guitar work!).

KevGo

(PS-Note to HW - did Jamerson play on the Tempts' Sky's The Limit sessions? Please advise)

By Bradburger (172.179.125.194) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

Thanks for clearing that one up Harry. It always sounded like the rest of the track may have been an LA recording and when I read Dr Licks book I assumed I was right!

However I stand corrected.

I guess I was also thinking of "Love Is Here & Now Your Gone." Wasn't this cut in LA with Jamersons upright overdubbed on it?

Cheers

Paul

By HW (68.37.217.106) on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 09:58 pm:

Sky's The Limit was done in Detroit and produced by Norman Whitfield. We can pretty much surmise who's playing bass, unless anyone else knows different. We know their names ain't on the record and definitely not on the tape boxes.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 11:01 am:

HW:
Thanks for the feedback regarding Sky's The Limit. Is it any wonder that the Funks aren't listed on the album jacket but the label made sure the small photo of Norman (with Barrett Strong) was prominent on the back lower left corner!

Go figure....

KevGo

By BassLand (63.207.60.116) on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 04:05 pm:

I spoke to Bob Babbitt some time ago about "Inner City Blues". He told me (in response to my question about ICB, MMWH,) that he did the line in two passes of the tape and tha tis the reason that the bass appears to be played by two different players playing alternate phrases of the verse.

On the Whats Going On (Deluxe edition) Jamerson recreated the ICB bassline perfectly (to my ears anyway) on the Live in Washigton D.C. performance. He actually did better on that song than some of the things that featured him on the original recording. It prompted ne to question if both bassists were playing on the studio version. It was Babbitt playing twice.

By HW (68.37.217.106) on Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 11:21 am:

Great, thanks on that one.

A note to let everyone know that the annotations for Babbitt's credits in the WGO Deluxe Edition has a small but crucial error: it says he is the bassist on Mercy Mercy Me and Inner City Blues. Since the album was recorded in sequence, it was supposed to say that he is the bassist on the tracks Mercy Mercy Me THROUGH Inner City Blues. Meaning, Jamerson plays on the first half of the album; Babbitt's on the second half.

This is corrected on the forthcoming 'regular' CD of the album.