By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

One thing that has come out of the creation of the webisodes for me has been the confusion regarding where things were recorded.

Latest dilema is a good example.

Tony Micale says "Romeo" was recorded in Chicago. Other people say United Sound.

Is there a possibility that the backing track was done at USS.

When did the practice of recording bits here and bits there commence anyway?

I am interested in the economics of it too.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.151) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 07:54 pm:

Regarding Romeo & Juliett...

I remember, and so does George McGregor, doing that session at GW with Bob DeOrleans. The 4 track master had a GW log on it when I did a stereo mix on it just before GW closed for myself and Russ. So it must have been done there as there were many session with Universal and Bell Sound logs in the library. When I talked with him a few months ago, Bob DeOrleans remembers doing the rhythm session and training me on that session, as well, and neither of us remember doing it in Chicago. That was over 30 years ago so we may be wrong but with so many people, George, Bob ect. remembering the session, I think it was done at GW. Like Columbus did was done at GW as Dennis, George and I all remember that one.

Regarding session moving around...this was very common. Many session moved from GW to United to Terra Shirma. The Ike Hays sessions were done at both United and Terra Shirma. Marvin Gaye worked at United on many occasions and brought the tapes back to Motown. Artie Fields reports he did many sessions for Berry at his place as well. Time was at a premium and so were the Funk Brothers, so if you had good engineers, which all of the major studios did, it was "catch as catch can." This became even more common when the major studio had 8 track, 1 inch machines. Danny was at Pioneer then and so they became a major player as well. Sessions were moving all over the city. In fact it was common all over the country. Don Davis used to do many Stax rhythm session in Memphis, overdub Dennis and Babbit here, and do the mixing here and cut the disc in Memphis.

On many occasions I did sessions on the coast and mixed at United and cut disks at GM. Session moved all over then.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:54 pm:

The sessions followed the musicians around the country. The transition from singles to albums increased recording budgets around the same time there was a significant drop in the cost of flying. Producers could fly the musicians around and record wherever it was most convenient.

By Tony The Reflections (152.163.188.68) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:07 pm:

Romeo voice tracks were cut in chicago at RCA. and the band tracks were cut at United Sound.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:14 pm:

Tony:
Thanks for the feedback. What's happening with the Reflections? I saw you & the guys do your thing on PBS and you were magnificent. Could you please share your "reflections" ? By the way, I'm dear friends with Sonny Sanders and I know he would get a kick to hear from you & the group.
Regards,
KevGo

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:29 pm:

Tony,

Thanks for dropping in.

While you're around can I ask you about a film
from 1965 or so called "Wild, Wild Winter" (or
something similar). I've read that the Reflections
were in the film but I've not seen it and don't
know if it's THE Reflections or another group.

Do you remember anything about it ?

Marshall Crenshaw's excellent "Hollywood Rock &
Roll" book would probably tell me but I can't
find my copy.

By thecount (64.53.165.90) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:51 pm:

DAVIE,the movie your thinking of is "WINTER A GO-GO.Kool movie for during the times of all those beach party and Frankie Avalon movies,muscle beach party,beach blanket bingo,etc.but the groups in these are who we sometimes refere to here on the forumFunny you should mention the movie as I just watched it a few weeks ago while I was going through my early drag race movies and putting all my DET,DRAGWAY movies on video.If you go to www.thevideobeat.com. they might have winter a go-go.Tell them the count sent you.
"COUNT"

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:26 pm:

Shown backing the Reflections in the movie is the Nooney Rickett IV. Nooney, originally from Indianapolis, moved out to California, and made two beach movies in 1964 - 1965.

Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:31 pm:

Nooney was also briefly a member of L.A. rock band LOVE , ca. 1970 ( the "False Start" lp). Jeff , do you know if he's still around?
Steve K.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:47 pm:

The Reflections are in a movie? Wow, how did I not know that as a kid? I thought I saw all the rock movies shown on TV ...

I just saw on that site the count cited that Marv Johnson is in a movie too -- whoa!

By thecount (64.53.143.173) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:36 pm:

WAKE UP AH LITTLE SUSIE WAKE UP,were you sound asleep and missed the movie?The movies over its 4oclock and your in trouble deep.If I can get my ol lady un mad at me,I will have her scan the picture of the Reflections in the studio shot of the movie for you.I have it in a frame,but can remove it.What are we gonna tell your momma,what will we tell your pa?(oohhh-la-la)
"COUNT"

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 09:40 am:

Count, Jeff

Thanks a lot and Count, I'd love to see the photo
of the Reflections you mention.

Can't get the Everly Brothers out of my head
now : -) it wouldn't be too bad except they're fighting as usual.

Nooney Rickett - used to have his Dimension single
of "The Last Time" (the Staple Singers song that the Rolling Stones nicked ) - I'd like to know
what he's doing now.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.45) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 02:53 pm:

The Reflections were yet another group that I got into early on regards the Rare/Northern soul scene,Just like Romeo and Juliet,brings back great memories,I would just like to say,Thanks for those memories fellas.MEL.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:49 pm:

Davie:
Hold up..."The Last Time" was originally by the Staples???? When did they record it? I thought I really knew their discography and you blow my mind with this bit of info. Please clue me in...
KevGo

By thecount (64.53.143.173) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:49 pm:

HERE IS THE "REFLECTIONS".Had to reduce it quite a bit,the typing under picture reads.
columbia pictures presents WINTER A -GO-GO
staring JAMES STACY,william wellman jr.
beverely adams,anthony hayes,jill donohue,
duke hobbie and TOM NARDINI,with the Nooney Rickett four and THE REFLECTIONS
featuring the SKI-HONEYS
produced by RENO CARELL
directed by RICHARD BENEDICT-columbiacolor.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:55 pm:

Count:
Great shot..thank for sharing.
KevGo

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:12 pm:

KEV: "This May Be The Last time" was recorded in '61 or '62 (pre-Stax) by the Staples. It kicks.
Steve K.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:47 pm:

Thanks...
KevGo

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 12:04 pm:

I received this from Babbitt. Thought everyone might enjoy it.

First, run an ad in ROWFAX. Then, have a Belmont intern screen about 1000 tapes and CDs. Next, have creative meetings. Hold at least a hundred songs for a few months, and then cull it to fifteen or twenty. As you go, trim it down to eleven or twelve, but don't make any promises, because a couple of these songs will probably get bounced by songs that you write, a song that your ex-girlfriend wrote about your relationship, or songs your friends bring in at the last minute.
Spend about a month on pre-production, making sure that everything is completely planned out, so that no spontaneity is necessary, or possible, in the studio. Since there are probably no "first singles" there, write one with the five or six "connected", outside, hit-songwriters. If that fails, always cover an old hit. Line up extra studio musicians to overdub esoteric instruments, so that it will be a slick record, and sound exactly like everything else out there.
Next, book the most expensive studio you can find, so that everyone but the musicians and the artist get paid lots of money. The more expensive, the more the record label will take the project seriously, which is very important. Book lots and lots of studio time. You'll need at least forty-eight tracks to accommodate all the room mics you'll set up for the drums, all of which will be buried by other instruments later, anyway, and for the added keyboard tracks, even if the artist's band never had a keyboard player. And, you'll need lots of tracks for the BGVs, even if the artist's band only has one singer.
Then, record all the instruments one at a time, but make the drummer play to a click track for every song, so the music never has a chance to breathe whatsoever. That way, you can use lots of MIDI gear. Do multiple takes of each song. Use up at least thirty reels of two-inch tape. Take the best parts of each take and splice them all together. You might even use a hard-disc recording system like ProTools or RADAR, then transfer it all back to analog two-inch. Spend at least two weeks just compiling drum tracks like this. you'll need to try at least a half-dozen snare drums and crash cymbals. If you really do it right, the entire band will never have to do a good take.
Now, start overdubbing each instrument, one at a time. Make sure that everything is perfect. If necessary, do things over and over until absolute perfection is achieved. Do a hundred takes if you must. This is, of course, done with the "guest" musicians.
Don't forget to hire someone who is good with samples and loops to get a little bluegrass/hip-hop feel. Better get some turntable scratching under the mandolin track, too.
Be sure to spend days and days just experimenting with overdub sounds, different amplifiers, guitars, mics, speakers, and basically trying every possible option you can think of to use up all that studio time you've booked. No matter how much time you book, you can easily use it up this way. Everyone involved will think they're working very hard.
Make sure you rent lots of expensive outboard gear. mics, expensive compressors and high-end preamps so you can convince yourself and everyone else how good it's sounding. Charge it back to the artist's recording budget, of course. Make sure that you have at least two or three compressors IN SERIES on everything you're recording. Any equipment with tubes in it is a sure bet. the older the better. The best is early-1970's-era Neve equipment, old Ampex analog recorders, and WW-2 vintage tube microphones, since everyone knows that the technology of recording has continuously declined for the past thirty + years. Don't forget to get some old "ribbon" mics, too.
Spend several days on the lead vocal tracks, then put the compilation track into ProTools and pitch correct it. even if it ruins the singer's style and inflections. radio wants perfect vocals, and as long as we have this equipment, we MUST use it. (Sorry, Willie Nelson)
Make sure that, by the time it's finished, everyone is absolutely, totally sick of all the songs and never want to hear any of them again.
Uh oh. guess what. ??? Now, it's time to MIX IT!!!
Better get someone with "fresh ears", who has never heard any of it before, to mix it in a $4,000.00 per day room with full automation. Make sure he is pretty famous, and of course, you have to fly to LA, someplace else, to do this, because there simply are no decent remix studios anywhere else. Make sure he compresses the hell out of everything as he mixes it. Compress each drum individually and then compress an overall stereo submix of them. Make sure to compress all the electric guitars, even though a distorting guitar amp is the most extreme "compressor" in existence. Compress everything else, too, and then compress the overall mix. Then, take the reverb off and add stereo chorus to give it a stereo feel. Spare no expense. Spend at least two weeks on it. Then take it back to Nashville and pay someone else to remix the whole thing on ProTools.
Then, get some New York coke-head mastering engineer to master it, and make sure he compresses the hell out of everything again and takes away all the low end and makes it super bright and crispy and harsh so it'll sound really LOUD on the radio. (Too bad about all those people with expensive home stereo setups)
OH NO!!! Your A&R guy just got fired!!! Guess what. it looks like this record will never be released. Oh well... Let's get started on to the next project.
First, run an ad in ROWFAX. Then, have a Belmont intern screen about 1000 tapes and CDs. Next, have creative meetings. Hold at least a hundred songs for a few months, and then cull it to fifteen or twenty. As you go, trim it down to eleven or twelve, but don't make any promises, because a couple of these songs will probably get bounced by songs that you write, a song that your ex-girlfriend wrote about your relationship, or songs your friends bring in at the last minute.
Spend about a month on pre-production, making sure that everything is completely planned out, so that no spontaneity is necessary, or possible, in the studio. Since there are probably no "first singles" there, write one with the five or six "connected", outside, hit-songwriters. If that fails, always cover an old hit. Line up extra studio musicians to overdub esoteric instruments, so that it will be a slick record, and sound exactly like everything else out there.
Next, book the most expensive studio you can find, so that everyone but the musicians and the artist get paid lots of money. The more expensive, the more the record label will take the project seriously, which is very important. Book lots and lots of studio time. You'll need at least forty-eight tracks to accommodate all the room mics you'll set up for the drums, all of which will be buried by other instruments later, anyway, and for the added keyboard tracks, even if the artist's band never had a keyboard player. And, you'll need lots of tracks for the BGVs, even if the artist's band only has one singer.
Then, record all the instruments one at a time, but make the drummer play to a click track for every song, so the music never has a chance to breathe whatsoever. That way, you can use lots of MIDI gear. Do multiple takes of each song. Use up at least thirty reels of two-inch tape. Take the best parts of each take and splice them all together. You might even use a hard-disc recording system like ProTools or RADAR, then transfer it all back to analog two-inch. Spend at least two weeks just compiling drum tracks like this. you'll need to try at least a half-dozen snare drums and crash cymbals. If you really do it right, the entire band will never have to do a good take.
Now, start overdubbing each instrument, one at a time. Make sure that everything is perfect. If necessary, do things over and over until absolute perfection is achieved. Do a hundred takes if you must. This is, of course, done with the "guest" musicians.
Don't forget to hire someone who is good with samples and loops to get a little bluegrass/hip-hop feel. Better get some turntable scratching under the mandolin track, too.
Be sure to spend days and days just experimenting with overdub sounds, different amplifiers, guitars, mics, speakers, and basically trying every possible option you can think of to use up all that studio time you've booked. No matter how much time you book, you can easily use it up this way. Everyone involved will think they're working very hard.
Make sure you rent lots of expensive outboard gear. mics, expensive compressors and high-end preamps so you can convince yourself and everyone else how good it's sounding. Charge it back to the artist's recording budget, of course. Make sure that you have at least two or three compressors IN SERIES on everything you're recording. Any equipment with tubes in it is a sure bet. the older the better. The best is early-1970's-era Neve equipment, old Ampex analog recorders, and WW-2 vintage tube microphones, since everyone knows that the technology of recording has continuously declined for the past thirty + years. Don't forget to get some old "ribbon" mics, too.
Spend several days on the lead vocal tracks, then put the compilation track into ProTools and pitch correct it. even if it ruins the singer's style and inflections. radio wants perfect vocals, and as long as we have this equipment, we MUST use it. (Sorry, Willie Nelson)
Make sure that, by the time it's finished, everyone is absolutely, totally sick of all the songs and never want to hear any of them again.
Uh oh. guess what. ??? Now, it's time to MIX IT!!!
Better get someone with "fresh ears", who has never heard any of it before, to mix it in a $4,000.00 per day room with full automation. Make sure he is pretty famous, and of course, you have to fly to LA, someplace else, to do this, because there simply are no decent remix studios anywhere else. Make sure he compresses the hell out of everything as he mixes it. Compress each drum individually and then compress an overall stereo submix of them. Make sure to compress all the electric guitars, even though a distorting guitar amp is the most extreme "compressor" in existence. Compress everything else, too, and then compress the overall mix. Then, take the reverb off and add stereo chorus to give it a stereo feel. Spare no expense. Spend at least two weeks on it. Then take it back to Nashville and pay someone else to remix the whole thing on ProTools.
Then, get some New York coke-head mastering engineer to master it, and make sure he compresses the hell out of everything again and takes away all the low end and makes it super bright and crispy and harsh so it'll sound really LOUD on the radio. (Too bad about all those people with expensive home stereo setups)
OH NO!!! Your A&R guy just got fired!!! Guess what. it looks like this record will never be released. Oh well... Let's get started on to the next project.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 12:10 pm:

Sorry it copied twice. Don't know why.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 01:22 pm:

Ralph

I thought that was part of it... I laughed like hell when it all started over! Leave it as it is - it works!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 01:43 pm:

Ritchie.....LOL....You're right. It fits.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.37) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 02:23 pm:

Ralph,
Hope you dont mind me asking,
Can you give us all an up-date regards the project your involved with by any chance Sir.
I Hope things are going well for you!
Many thanks Ralph.
Mel.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 03:30 pm:

Mel,
Thanks for asking.The mixes have been in the hands of John Rhys the last few weeks. I received a phone call from him last week. He informed me that he thought he had done all that could be done regarding mastering, and would be sending me a copy to review. I am expecting this copy any day. I'm not sure what happens next Mel. The original plan was for a November release but that is history. Generally Christmas is not the best time to try and release new product so maybe after the first of the year. At any rate it is in the hands of John Rhys and I trust him to do what is best. Meanwhile he has suggested that it is time for Teddie and me to get back into the studio. He's right. We haven't been since last Summer. Meanwhile I have been contacted by a production company to produce a band they have signed. Kind of a funky, jazz type band. That is supposed to start in about a month so I may be setting myself up to get buried in the studio. Oh my poor old bones......

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 03:39 pm:

Ralph

Thanks for the update - sounds good. As do the funky Jazz outfit.... mmmmm - tasty. Keep us posted - hope it comes off. Er... I once played tambourine with Incognito, a fine funky outfit, but my session days are long past!

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.28) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 03:52 pm:

Many thanks Ralph,
it goes without saying
all the best for the future months ahead Sir.
Mel.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 04:08 pm:

Thanks guys.I'm doing all I can.