By SteveS (68.41.249.207) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 07:42 pm: |
This past weekend I was visiting Joe and brought the SITSOM soundtrack with me - he had only heard the abbreviated promotional version. I was mostly curious to get his reaction to Bernadette and You Keep Me Hangin On. The interesting thing was that it almost seemed easier for him to identify Robert and Eddie than to find his own part (although I think this was just Joe being modest and trying to deflect the spotlight yet again). He did finally admit that the incredibly fast triplet stuff in Bernadette was him. He confirmed that this was how he knew the tunes - no vocals or sweetening, and he really wasn't familiar with the finished products as we know them. He's told me this before, so I had brought some other tunes along to play for him. The one tune he recognized himself on was Your Precious Love - that's him doubling Jamerson. I played It's a Shame and he wasn't sure who was who, although he thought the intro was probably him and Robert.
One other interesting tidbit - I played I Was Made to Love Her for him. He didn't know Carol Kaye and had no comment on the tune. However, he said that Jamerson told him about a "girl bass player" on the west coast who could play absolutely anything. Jamerson was very complimentary toward her.
It's strange to consider that this music has so much emotional content for all of us, who grew up listening to it, while the guys that made it heard it in a relative vacuum, not knowing if the thing they were playing was destined to be a hit or confined to the Motown "cellar". In any case, it's great to see them finally get their due.
Steve
By Millie (68.40.198.72) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 10:11 pm: |
Steve,
The intro to "It's A Shame" was done by Dennis Coffey.
By Caleb (209.245.114.229) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 11:05 pm: |
Millie,completely because it sounds alot like Robert White.
By mhc (172.170.186.192) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 11:18 pm: |
I don't have the record with me to check out, but the way I remember it, it has to be at least two guitars on that intro.
By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 11:21 pm: |
I was just going to say -- very common at Motown, it's almost always at least two guitars doubling each other. I asked Dennis one time when "It's a Shame" came on a friend's car stereo, "isn't that you?" He said yeah. It's probably him and Robert.
But I think -- and Dennis is here so he can talk obviously -- but he often is only credited with the wilder stuff he did, when he did some very lyric work too.
By john c (12.81.192.89) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 02:34 am: |
The old board had a long discussion on It's A Shame intro, the conclusion was definitely 2 guitars. They just blend so well, it sounds like one on a casual listen. The guitars on You Keep Me Hangin' On are great. Steve, did Joe say who played what on that one?
By SteveS (68.41.248.127) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 05:15 am: |
John - He was only going by the sound of the guitars and not specific recollection of any of the sessions, but he thought that You Keep Me Hangin On sounded like him and Robert on the octaves and Eddie on the ringing chord, although he and Eddie could have been reversed. That doesn't narrow it down much, does it?.
Sue, Millie - didn't mean to take issue with Dennis on It's a Shame. I'm was just passing on Joe's off the cuff reaction to the tunes, and the fact that the finished versions all sound brand new to him today, compared to the rough instrumental mixes he heard in the studio 30+ years ago. If Dennis says he played on It's A Shame, I'm sure Joe would not argue with that.
By the way - Joe also commented on The Flick, which he didn't think he played on. After Eddie's solo, he said "Gee, I never heard Eddie cut loose like that. He sounds good!".
To me, the most interesting thing about all this is that the guys really didn't have rigid, predefined roles - they all played everything, and were so versatile that it's difficult for them to identify their own parts in the mix.
Steve
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 10:43 am: |
Steve S
What you say about the non rigid pre-defined roles must be correct, These guys spent a very long time with each other, so i guess like all pro-musicians they would have learnt quite a lot off of each other, and assimilated this into a style of their own.
That fast triplet rythym in 'bernadette'almost sounds like a mandolin being played. You can hear a similar kind of style being played on the intro to 'do you love me' and on 'cloud nine' on of the guitar parts sustains a very fast rythym for quite a long period of time. Is this the work of joe also???
I have tried this style , and i can honestly say it's a very difficult skill to master.
The style is similar to what you sometimes hear in European folk music.
By SteveS (209.219.207.3) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:28 am: |
Soulboy,
Yes, from what I can gather Joe was sort of the designated hitter on parts that required heavy chops (maybe Ralph or some of the other folks that were there would be in a better position to comment). The amazing thing is that 30 years later he still has some serious chops. On the SITSOM soundtrack you hear him doing tremolo on Do You Love Me and Cloud Nine. I comented on this on the old thread. Not many guitar players today can play a sustained, even tremolo on the high strings.
Steve
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:37 am: |
Steve,
If Joe was some sort of designated hitter in the studio, I really can't say. I think Dennis would be better qualified to answer that one.It is true, Joe is an amazingly gifted musician. However I think we can all agree that the funks were all amazingly gifted.I think in some way they were all designated hitters and stood up at the plate to do what was asked of them.
By SteveS (209.219.207.3) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 04:15 pm: |
Ralph
You're absolutely right. I didn't mean to overstate my contention. I was just responding to Soulboy in reference to picking chops, which are sort of a specialty of Joe's (a la bernadette). On the other hand, I don't think you'd catch Joe playing the great blues / funk licks that tended to fall to Eddie (e.g. the Flick). They were all DH's!
Steve
By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 04:32 pm: |
There are two guitars on the "It's A Shame" intro for sure - they're panned full left and right on the stereo mix.
PS - how come it's tomorrow already? (It's still Thursday the 17th here!)
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:02 pm: |
FWIW I don't remember anything but at least THREE guitars on almost everything.
I also remember a Tom Baird production at Golden World where only Joe had been called and Tom changed his mind wanting a full funk brothers guitar treatment. Joe overdubbed each of the other parts in single takes as both Tom's and my jaw hit the floor.
By Larry (209.244.72.65) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 01:15 am: |
Bob,
Yet another cool post. So Joe was a one take dude?
I'd heard he played with Bird and Miles and other heavy Bop jazzers. That had to have been in NY.
Know anything about Joe's other work?
By Sue (152.163.188.68) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 08:35 am: |
Larry,
The playing with Bird and Miles was when he played in the band on Soupy Sales' nighttime talk show here in Detroit around 1955 ..there's footage of Joe playing guitar and smiling (what else?) on TV on Soupy's show in the Standing in the Shadows of Motown movie. Bird, Miles and Coltrane all appeared on Soupy's show ...some local show, eh?
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 10:37 am: |
The funk brothers were ALL one take dudes. They had to be because they were normally playing as an ensemble and the cost of everybody's salaries was about $30 a minute figured in today's currency.
A major part of why music isn't as good as it was is economics. In 1965 the cheapest way to make a competent sounding record was to hire the best ensemble of musicians you could find. Today, the cheapest way is to hand some kid a computer.
By Dennis Coffey (64.12.97.7) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 06:04 pm: |
Hello everyone. Joe, Robert and Eddie were all fine players and Joe and Eddie still are today. We all got along and could play whatever parts we needed to get the job done. As far as chops, we all had them. That was part of the job requirements - tremolos, sustained rhythms, whatever. We played all day and sometimes all night too. This gave us the chops. I did play on the intro to It's a Shame. There were usually three guitars on every session and once in a while four. We usually recorded three or four songs per three hour session. We always tried to make it easy on each other and we had fun too!
Dennis
By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 06:24 pm: |
Amen, Bob and Dennis.
But Bob, the computer-generated music isn't touching people, isn't selling, and won't last. So it ultimately is a short-sighted business decision.
Take the cost of the Funks and of course the singers, throw in some pop and lunch, and then stretch out how long that music has lasted. A pretty good bargain.
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 10:52 pm: |
Sue, It's VERY short-sighted and anything they've saved now has to be spent on promotion. Ellen and I were watching some M-TV tonight and I couldn't help thinking it's little wonder many kids think music is just a bunch of hype and a rip-off because Madison Avenue appears to have taken it over.
By Larry (64.156.144.246) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 03:48 am: |
I've got to believe that what started as frosting is losing its taste by the hour.
Have faith brothers and sisters.
Kids can feel what I felt when I first heard the Beatles or Led Zeppelin. Only a hop, skip and a jump to the source: R&B, Motown & Jazz.
Have Faith!
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 07:34 am: |
Larry
What you say about kids liking the music is correct,in my experience they do,But peer pressure dictates that they should only like the current music scene. I can well relate to this as when i was a teenager it was seriously unhip to buy older records.With the benefit of age and experience i think they get past this.I was a little too young to experience motown in it's heyday,but as the records were constantly being played by DJ's on radio programmes for years after, it was something i could not ignore.
By HW (68.37.217.106) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 08:15 am: |
I will send Joe Messina and the rest of the Funks a few copies of the SITSOM soundtrack.
BTW - many of the original tunes had 3 guitar players. I will check out "It's A Shame" as I have heard the basic tracks before the horn and vocal overdubs. Thanks Dennis for confirming your part on that one.
By Larry (63.209.95.190) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 12:52 pm: |
Dennis,
"It's A Shame" is one of my all-time fave tracks with just about the hookiest intro ever.
What a kick it must be for you to have been a part of it. I'm humbled.
The track deserves its own string. This thread say's the old forum had one. I'd like to read that. Jamerson is so badass on this track. You can never pin him down he's moving and dartin' all over.
Richie, yeah it's plain the intro and re-intro are 2 guitars: L-rhythm R-lead. While the lead gets trimmed as the song progresses and the horns start to pickup its theme, both guitar parts continue throughout the song.
Smokin, happy, tuff track. Love it.
By bmiller360 (64.169.101.172) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 02:50 pm: |
...as a very involved "observer" of the "Funks", a bit of my own observations. Each of these terrific players put their own strong stamp on the "Motown Sound", but each had very different abilities. Dennis was a terrific studio guy and artist and has the distinction of being Messina's "other" student, other than yours truly!( or maybe I was the "other" one)...well......During my days of conducting for a very talented artist of the day, Paul Anka, I was able to actually include some "Funks" in the road group......Earl Van Dyke and Robert White. Earl, of course, was in a class by himself, but since he wasn't a guitarist, we'll save him for another time. Robert was a "time-locking" dream. Not a huge amount of chops, but it just doesn't matter. He had talent and a fabulous time feel. That alone would make him a star in my eyes. Eddie Willis was a true funk-master. His most important strength to me was, among other things, those incredible ("dee-bone" as Joe used to call it) real life licks and earthy feel. What a joy to have seen him and heard him last month in LA. Very classy guy, and born with that "only Eddie Willis sound like that" feel.
Lastly, Joe Messina, who had more raw chops than anyone I've ever known, and I've known many. (i feel a bit like a hooker with that last "i've known many) but I digress......Joe was in a class by himself, and it wasn't just the fast fingers. He knew his music inside and out. Completely self -schooled to a level that I've known many conservatory-trained colleagues fall short of. Every so often one of these freaks shows up, and for me that was Joe Messina. Always modest and kind, I feel that I know his playing as well as anyone (including Josie), but again I digress. I've played, arranged and conducted with what many feel are the most skillful musicians in the world, here in LA.. Joe would have been a leader out here. The only reason I'm going on about this is that, to set the record straight, each of the "Funks" guitar players deserved their place in that elite group, but I have to say, and I think the other guys would agree, between his extrordinary sight-reading, amazing ears, chops and most important, musicality, if we're talking about world-class ability, Joe was in a class by himself. Also, for whatever it's worth, I can for-sure say that at my own peak as a guitarist, he kicked my ass, and for that there is NO ARGUMENT!!!!!!!
I love all of you "Funk Guitar Players"
bruce
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 02:58 pm: |
I agree that kids can feel the difference. The kids I meet are into the widest variety of music imaginable. It extends way beyond the bounds of the casino-like atmosphere of M-TV.
Our challenge is educating kids about popular music and finding ways for those who want to perform to be able to earn their way to the top using MUSICAL talent.
By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 03:18 pm: |
I COULDNT AGREE MORE WITH MY "BRO'S" ACESSMENT OF HIS GUITAR HERO...JOE MESSINA. AS A KID OF NINE OR TEN YEARS OLD, I REMEMBER SCHLEPPING ALONG WITH MY DAD AND BROTHER TO HIS GUITAR LESSONS WITH JOE, USUALLY BETWEEN REHERSALS OF THE OLD SOUPY SALES LATE NIGHT T.V. SHOW. I REMEMBER THAT PERPETUAL SMILE THAT JOE ALWAYS HAD ON HIS FACE... A MAN WHO TRULY ENJOYED HIS CRAFT. JUST A FOOTNOTE...BRUCES SON HAS BECOME AN ACCOMPLISHED GUITARIST IN HIS OWN RIGHT AT A VERY YOUNG AGE...A LOT OF BLUES STUFF, AND HAS BEEN RECOGINIZED NATIONALLY. JOE MESSINA PROBABLY DOESNT EVEN KNOW OF HIS INFLUENCE ON THE CAREER OF THIS "RISING TALENT". IM SURE ITS NOT THE ONLY CASE OF JOE MESSINA'S INFLUENCE ON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION OF GUITAR GREATS...OUTTA HERE...STUBASS
By Larry Rott (63.209.95.190) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 03:22 pm: |
Here here Bob.
Bruce,
Helluva post.
Thanks for sharing.
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 07:29 am: |
Bmiller
Interesting post, did you work with the funks during or after or even before their days in detroit.
By Dennis (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:23 am: |
Hello, everyone. I worked with session guitarists and musicians in Detroit, LA, New York, Mussel Shoals, Nashville, Chicago, Miami, London, and everywhere else in between. Plus I was usually at Hitsville everyday when I lived in Detroit. What everyone seems to be missing is the friendship and teamwork we shared. Thats what made the guitar section at Motown work. We all helped each other play whatever parts were needed to make it all happen. We had our specialties but we split up the parts between ourselves to make our jobs easier and to create great records. I never saw that anywhere else.
Dennis
By Larry (64.156.157.221) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 01:14 pm: |
Dennis,
Great point. It is a shame how ego's and competition have taken the fun and magic away from the music.
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 01:36 pm: |
Larry,
Good point. A great example of egos run amok is the somewhat recent wars between the West and East Coast rappers. What a disgrace to the music busness. Can you imagine Joe Messina doing a " drive by " on Dennis Coffey??
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 02:54 pm: |
That's one of the main lessons i,ve learned since i have been involved with this forum. The funks were not just ace musicians but they certainly seem like great people to just be around,the lack of ego and self shows through in the music.
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 03:11 pm: |
On a slightly more negative note it's almost criminal, that despite the wealth of guitar talent, these people have been virtually ignored by the music press especially the guitarist magazines.
There's a vast amount of lessons to be learned from the style's of Robert,Joe,Eddie and Dennis.
I only hope that in the near future some enterprising individual recognises this.(Dr licks type instructional video perhaps??)
By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 03:20 pm: |
RALPH; ALTHOUGH THE THOUGHT OF A "DRIVE BY" SHOOTING IS CERTAINLY OUT OF THE QUESTION...I CAN IMAGINE JOE MESSINA HURLING A LOADED WAH-WAH PEDAL AT THE COFFEE RESIDENCE! STUBASS
By SteveS (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 03:47 pm: |
Bruce,
Thanks for the incredible post. You said it about a million times better than I ever could!
SteveS
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 04:39 pm: |
I've believed for a very long time that the extraordinary lack of ego was a major component in the music's ability to break across boundaries. We were sharing the joy of being together instead of trying to impress or attract awe. You CAN FEEL the difference.
By Clay (66.73.180.126) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 02:20 am: |
Ladies and Gents,
There is not and never will be a Record Company like Motown. Paul Riser said it all, without the FUNK BROS there never would have been a MOTOWN. There are Rappers and others who have enough money to Air Condition a Cotton Field,but they can't replicate the The sounds of Motown's,writers,artists,musicians,engineers,the techs and the superfine host of folk that made that company run like a Sherman Tank. I was there and consider myself one of the Lucky ones who got the chance to share the space with so many Legends. I've had the pleasure of working with all the Funk Bros and what I learned from them I can one day use that knowledge in Heaven. Peace
By Larry Rott (209.245.65.213) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 05:24 am: |
Clay, Bob, Dennis, Ralph, Bob, Harry and so many others (Motowner's and fans alike),
It's a blessing that this site is here for you all, and that a 'common language' (a passion) has brought you together and kept you here.
To David and Lowell who's passion has attracted those 'who were there'. A Blessing.
Soulfuldetroit is truly a haven.
I'm not surprised in the least that the topic of this thread JOE MESSINA has led to conversation on Love, Passion, dropped Ego and Teamwork.
MOTOWN
By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 11:15 am: |
To: Dennis Coffey,
I've been a lifelong fan of your work since "Scorpio" and "Taurus" as well as the Motown sessions. Could you please elaborate on a few points -
1) What was it like working with a 20 year old Stevie Wonder producing "It's A Shame" with you on guitar?
2) How did Jack Montgomery's "Dearly Beloved" come to being? Did any of the Funks play on that record? Why didn't this become the hit it should've been? (Scepter was no slouch in the record field).
3) When will your excellent Sussex sessions be available on CD? Do we have to beg Clarence Avant repeatedly or is that catalog in someone else's hands.
Looking forward to your reply!
KevGo
By StingBeeLee (155.139.68.10) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:43 pm: |
Soulboy
Most of the music press have ignored the Funk Brothers, although I do remember a couple of years ago a guitar magazine having the top rhythm sections of all time and picking James Jamerson/Benny Benjamin and the Funks as number one, with Booker T. and the Mg's number two. It's a shame that the Funks are not front page news here in Detroit as they should be. If Bruce Springsteen comes here, he gets the front page of the entertainment section. Over the years, the Motown and the other great singers out of Detroit have been relegated more and more to the back pages, whereas Britney, Cher, the Rolling Stones get the front pages. If you want to read about Little Willie John, Jackie Wilson, the Contours, Spinners, Four Tops, Martha and the Vandellas, and etc., you better read it somewhere else. Now if you're accused of something, like Aretha not paying her bills, then you get front page treatment; and people were furious, and I mean furious when they read the Aretha article. It's shameful that so many Detroit singers get very little press here. Only Sue and the Michigan Chronicle keep up with the singers out of Detroit. Dennis, I remember at house parties here in Detroit we would do the funky worm during the drum break in Scorpio. We would all get on the floor and wiggle and move our legs back and forth!
By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.38) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 05:18 pm: |
Hi Kevgo. I believe Stevie ended up playing drums on the Spinners session because he was the only one who could play what he heard in his head. When Stevie heard something and asked you to play it, he wanted you to play it exactly. Stevie heard everything - very amazing and talented guy!
Mike Theodore and I were asked by Steve Mancha to do the arrangements on Dearly Beloved. I don't think any of the Funks were on that record. I don't know why it wasn't a hit. 20 songs from my Sussex years will be out next spring on Right Stuff records owned by Capitol/EMI. I gave them the info for the liner notes two weeks ago.
Dennis
By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.151) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 05:22 pm: |
One of the great things about the Detroit music business in the 60-80s was the mutual respect and deep friendhip that the musicians and engineers had for each other. It continues today with those here in Detroit from that era. Not only did we make music together, we hung out together. Russ and I were close friends. Danny, Bob, Henry Root, Mylan-the gang us us would get together on Mike's boat on weekends. We were all close friends. I was particularly tight with Andrew Smith, and that friendship lasted 37 years. We spoke almost every week. During his last week on earth we spoke daily. I still miss him much. Great people, great friendships!!! That's what really counts in life. God has been good to us all.
Ed
By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 06:22 pm: |
Dennis:
Hooray! Your Sussex catalog will finally be available! I can't wait!
A dear colleague of mine named Hal Wilson was the photographer for your "Scorpio" LP and he told me about coming to Detroit for the photo shoot (and how he had to find your studio in Detroit!).
Thanks for the Stevie perspective. To me, he is a de facto member of the Funks in many ways.
Thank you again for your feedback.
KevGo
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:24 am: |
Does any one have any info on Joe's Telecaster??It's not the usual tele neck,Can anyone offer a reason why this was used over the standard fender neck, i always thought the standard fenders from the 50s/early60s era were among the funkiest sounding instruments on the planet.
By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 07:27 am: |
Above, Soupy Sales' TV talk show was mentioned and I believe Soupy was also a comedian & singer. I know he had a 45 released by Motown and I also have an earlier UK 45 by him (no doubt recorded in Detroit) but can anyone give me the full sp on the guy & his career.
By David Meikle (213.122.37.154) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:24 am: |
A pic of Soupy sits close to the start of the Tera Shirma story.
What do you remember of him Ralph?
By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:20 am: |
Soupy Sales was a comedian with a sort of outrageous, slapstick side to him, although it was all done in a sort of hip, tongue in cheek way.
We baby boomers mostly remember his "Lunch with Soupy" show, which started in Detroit but went national (like all our good stuff!).
I didn't even know he had this nighttime talk show in the '50s til fairly recently.
On the "Lunch with" show he had a famous cast of supporting characters you wouldn't see, only hear including White Fang -- done by a brilliant guy who worked for Channel 7 in Detroit ...he was famous for getting and giving pies in the face, and for one time telling kids at home "kids, go to mommy's purse, get the dollars out and send them to Soupy!" His two sons played in bands, including for some time with David Bowie.
By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 09:45 am: |
The neck is from a Fender Jazzmaster guitar. It's not standard, but it's an easy enough modification...just remove 4 bolts & put on the new neck. Maybe he liked the Jazzmaster neck & feel, but liked the sound & layout of the Telecaster. Maybe Joe will pop in to tell us.
-Steve
By Craig Weiland (170.20.11.59) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:09 am: |
RE: Joe Messina's guitar. It is a Jazzmaster neck on a Tele body. Joe says the main reason is that he likes the binding on the Jazzmaster neck which a standard Tele neck does not have. The binding makes for smoother movement up and down the neck. Joe says the Jazzmaster neck just feels better, a "cleaner finished board" as he puts it.
Also, and I found this interesting, is that he uses flatwound strings on his guitar instead of roundwounds. Joe was still able to get a crisp, trebly sound on those backbeats using the flatwounds.
I've played his guitar many times and it does feel great to play and sounds wonderful.
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:24 am: |
Soupy's afternoon kid's show was probably watched by more adults than kids. I think the whole purpose of the show was to see if Soupy and the cast could crack each other up. They may have had a script to follow but it was all pretty much ad libed once things got out of control. There was always the famous " knock on the door " where some unseen character would be at Soupy's back door. Once without Soupy knowing what was to happen there was the famous knock at the door and when Soupy opened the door there was ( out of sight of the camera ) a naked woman.
You can well imagine the entire crew falling apart at this point. It was a great show. The very young Sunliners ( actually the Glo Worms at this point ) would work with Soupy several times. One time at some Christmas show at a Detroit high school Soupy needed to go to the men's room before the show started. He asked us guys ( holding our instruments ) to show him where it was. We did and then he made us play a song while he used the urinal.
By Craig Weiland (170.20.11.59) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:39 am: |
JOE ADDS THAT HE FAVORS THE TELECASTER BODY BECAUSE WITH THE TELE PICKUP HE CAN GET A CRISP, CLEAN JAZZ SOUND WITH THE LOW NOTES COMING OUT ESPECIALLY CLEAN AND CLEAR. AND THE TELE PICKUP IS PERFECT FOR GETTING THAT CRISP BACKBEAT TONE.
By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 06:43 am: |
Returning to the Soupy Sales thread, anyone know how many records (45's) were released on him and were they all straight singing or did he also have 'comedy' releases ???
By Millie (68.40.198.72) on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 05:56 pm: |
Dear JSmith,
I know Soupy pretty well, and doubt that he ever recorded any serious singing songs! That's just not Soupy...mostly everything he did was of a comedic nature. However, at my advancing age, I could be wrong...I usually am!
By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 02:16 am: |
Millie,
I did a search on Soupy's 45 releases (US) and came up with at least 13 of them, 1 on Brunswick, 3 on Capitol, 5 on Reprise and 1 on Motown ("Green Grow The Lilacs"). I know the Originals & Joe Harnell did 'straight' versions of "Lilacs" and always assumed Soupy's version was similar but he could well have changed the lyrics slightly to make it a 'comedy' version. The UK 45 I have by him came out here in the mid 60's on HMV. It's titled "The Mouse" and appears to be a 'straight' dance record but if I listen more closely to the words I bet they will prove to be a bit strange. Many of his releases seem to be comedy based, but one titled "Soupy's Theme" (on Reprise) may well prove to be a nice Detroit instrumental (unless it is just the theme tune from one of his TV shows. CHEERS.
By JSmith (212.39.231.20) on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 02:20 am: |
Forot to mention, the "Mouse" came out on ABC in the US. He had at least 3 45's released on the label. How come Chicago based labels such as ABC and Brunswick (although their head offices were in NY) released stuff on him ?? Were his TV shows syndicated right across the US on just broadcast on local Detroit Stns.
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 09:29 am: |
Soupy was originally broadcast just locally in Detroit. These were the best shows. When his popularity grew and he was " discovered " by all the celebrities that wanted a pie thrown in their face, the show was moved to New York and shown nationally. The NY shows lacked the spontaneity of the Detroit shows and didn't last all that long as I remember.
By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 10:01 am: |
John,
Re Soupy Sales on ABC - maybe ABC was the TV
network that produced his TV show. The label
was an offshoot of the TV company.
By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:25 am: |
John:
Brunswick released Soupy's "Break Your Back" single as well as an album while he was in the Big Apple. The label was run by a fellow Detroiter Nat Tarnopol (Jackie Wilson's manager) who was also headquartered in New York City. At the time Brunswick was trying to develop a line of comedy recordings that included Soupy Sales and Slappy White, among others.
KevGo
By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 05:05 pm: |
Joe or any of the guitar geeks ...
Who's playing that great lead on the Four Tops' "Ask The Lonely"?
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 12:07 pm: |
Sue
That lead on 'ask the lonely' sounds as if it may not be joe as that isn't a 'telecaster' sound, its a bit more 'twangy' i relise this doesn't narrow it down to much. Perhaps Harry W or one of the other guys may know.
By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 12:56 pm: |
No that's helpful, that would narrow it down to Robert White most likely. I'm pretty sure our Dennis C wasn't doing sessions at that point, and it doesn't have the distinctive Eddie Willis "chink" ...so most signs would point to Robert I think ...
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 01:28 pm: |
Sue
I tend to agree with you on this, allthough if you think about robert white's 'my girl' riff, the sound is not similar. what makes a guitar sound or style incredibly difficult to recognize is that on all electric guitars since the fender broadcaster (1948), they have multiple pickup configurations, the telecaster has three different positions, the stratocaster five. On large gibson guitars like Robert white's L5 there are many different available on that.
My guess is that if this was a gibson then the bridge pickup was used, unlike 'my girl' where i
can only speculate the neck pickup was used to achieve that super-mellow sound.
The riff itself has all the hallmarks of being a written piece rather than something instinctive.
By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 01:36 pm: |
Was Eddie Willis using a Gibson Firebird at that time? The bridge pickup on the Firebird is definately capable of the Strat-like sound on that intro (I would have guessed it a Fender Strat, but I'm not sure if any of the guys were using that at the time). I can't imagine that tone coming out of an L-5, but with the proper eq who knows? Good question...
Steve K.
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 02:28 pm: |
I once heard that the firebird is capable of producing that cutting tone similar to the fender guitars. I cannot comment on this as i am far more familiar with fender type sounding guitars than those of the gibson variety.
Dennis Coffey used a firebird on many sessions. Perhaps he could comment on the sound of the firebird without effects.
By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 02:35 pm: |
Dennis -- yoo hoo ... what's your guess as to who's playing the signature guitar riff on "Ask The Lonely"?
By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0) on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 03:17 pm: |
Gibson Firebirds are solid-body guitars like the Fender Telecaster and Stratocaster. Solid-body guitars usually have a sharper tone and it is likely that Gibson introduced the Firebird to compete with the Fender innovations, even copying the Fender headstock with all the tuning pegs on one side.
On the SITSOM web site it says that both Eddie and Robert also played Gibson ES-335s. This is a semi-hollowbody design similar to B. B. King's "Lucille". In the hands of a good player it is capable of a wide variety of sounds and could have been used on "Ask The Lonely". Listening to the song, though, I would still guess a solid-body (either Eddie's Firebird or Joe's Tele). I think we need someone who really knows to tell us!
- Gary Rosen
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 09:35 am: |
I have spent some time trying to breakdown and analyse this song. It is apparent that at least 3 guitars are present on the recording.(no surprise)
1. One Playing a conventional chord rythym pattern.
2. One Playing the occasional backbeat allthough it sounds a different style to what was usually
played there's more reverb/echo to the sound.
3. The lead, particularly the first three notes to the intro must be two guitars playing an octave apart,or a twelve string of some type.there is absolutely no way i can achieve this sound by playing on single string. The nearest i could get to it was by playing an octave. (two strings). Overall not a difficult song to analyse when broken down into it's individual components,but the guitar parts are well arranged and thought out.
By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 09:53 am: |
Good stuff soulboy. I'm not a guitar player so forgive the everyday jargon ...but to me the lead line has a kind of jangling, piercing tone to it, which would lead me to Joe Messina, his guitar sound would often cut right through ...
By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:19 am: |
I'm really enjoying these "who's playing what"
threads. I find that they're making me listen more closely to records I've loved for most of my life. I just wish all those people who dismissed
my love of Motown at school - "oh, it's just good for dancing" - could read these posts.
I've often suspected that one of the reasons that
the Funks were never given the attention in the music press they deserved was that they show up
many rock "guitar heroes" as amateurs in comparison. All those nights playing in Detroit
jazz clubs and bars counted for something - it's
called learning your craft.
By Dennis Coffey (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:08 am: |
Hi Everyone. I'm not sure who played on Only the Lonely. I do know Eddie Willis had a Firebird until it was broken and then he got a 335. I still have the Gibson Firdbird I used on all of my Motown sessions. The sharp backbeat sound of my Firebird would cut through almost anything on a record. I thought it sounded sharper than a Fender. We all played jazz and funk in clubs around and in Detroit. Of course that was when you could actually play three to five nights a week in the same club for one or two years. Now everyone does one or two nighters at a different club each weekend and most of the musicians in Detroit have day jobs. I feel sorry for the young musicians trying to learn their craft this way. I don't think it is any better in the other cities either. I think musicians spend a lot of time moving from club to club and setting up. This takes away from the time they could spend playing and rehearsing. In the old days, you took your instrument to the club and plugged into your amp which was already there and played four or five sets. Your PA was already set up as well.
Dennis
By larry (12.141.160.25) on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:18 am: |
Davie,
I had the same revelation a while ago. I got 'prepared', lights out, eyes closed, headphones on, and those old cool songs took on a new life completely.
I may take it for granted being a musician and being into recording for many years. Anyone who's mixed a tune is INTO focussing on individual tracks throughout the entire song and of course how they relate to other tracks and to the sound as a whole.
The Motown stuff is KILLER under the 'cans'.
Dennis,
You describe it perfectly. Nowadays, looking for a gig, you got Tuesday's at Joe's, Thursday's at Molly's, Sunday's at.... (you get the idea).
By PhilH (203.221.52.121) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 03:20 am: |
Dennis,
It's great to hear that your stuff is coming out on CD. Although I've been buying records and CD's for over 30 years now, "Scorpio" and your other records all somehow passed me by (though I do vaguely remember the cover for "Finger Lickin' Good"), and it's only from reading your book over this past weekend that I found out that you were on "Band Of Gold", one of my long-time favourites. Now, here's hoping that Capitol's remastering is as good as Universal's!
It's also great to see so many "insiders" here, I'll definitely be visting often!
Cheers,
Phil
By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.230) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 06:03 am: |
Thanks to this forum, I have connected Joe to one of my all time favorite shows, the Soupy Sales late night show.
If I had known that Joe was present on those great shows, I would have been kissing him so much that Motown would have gone broke.
Mike McLean
By Phillysoulman (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 01:04 pm: |
Amazingly, as I am reviewing this thread, It's A Shame just came on the radio on the Felix Hernandez show!!!
There are two guitars, one doing the main melody and the other doing kind of a "rolling" strumming effect and the combination is awesome.
As a novice, I was raised on Motown especially the guitar parts. I learned all of the intros and the chords to al the hits at the time.
We must not forget Marv Tarplin and his classic intro on Tracks Of My Tears and Cornelius Grant on the classic Losing You intro.
As an addendum to the commentary on the interaction of the guitar players, I will add that in Philly it was quite the same in that we were all interchangeable insofar as our parts were concerned, although our tones and strings varied, we could still duplicate each other's style!!
Early on there were three guitarists that were usually Norman Harris, Roland Chambers and myself, but as time went on it was mostly Norman and myself.
Norman was the "mellow man" with the Gretsch Switch-o-matic "fat" axe with "telephone pole" flat wound srings.
I played a variety on axes. A Les Paul on most of the early stuff like Backstabbers , For The Love Of Money, I'll Always Love My Mama, The Love I lost, T.S.O.P., Love Is The Message , If You Dont Love Me By Now , Love Train, etc Bad Luck, and most of the Salsoul stuff and most of the BHY stuff such as Disco Inferno...to mid to late seventy stuff. I also had an Ibanez "Bob Weir" double cutaway blond axe with a sculpted body with fancy- schmancy pearl inlays sorta like the one that Kevin Eubanks sometimes plays on The Tonight Show. I used that on on Teddy Pendergrass'
late 70's stuff like I cant hide from myself and Get Up Get Funky Get Loose where my axe is prominent, doubling the bass line in the verses.
Love TKO and Close The Door and all of those "Sexy" ballads were the Les Paul.
Someone stole the Bob Weir one from my car cutting the convertable top while I went in a store for no more than FIVE MINUTES!!
I was not a Srat convert till the early nineties.
I have some oddball axes such as a Wurlitzer stereo "Fender Type" axe with a toggle switch that says "Jazz" or "Rock"!!!!
I also have a Wurlitzer 12 string in candy apple red.
I have a Fender Jazzmaster that I acquired from
Doc Wade of the Trammps, that needs some work. also a Gibson 335.
I wish that I would have kept all of the guitare and amps that I had throughout the years. I could opened a museum!!
I do have a fifties original tweed fender Vibrolux that was used on The Twist and Mashed Potato Time, Bristol Stomp and other early Cameo Parkway stuff by Joe Renzetti!! I sort of ADOPTED it. Could it be that Paulie might have helped me on that one, when it "fell off a truck" Capice????
By STUBASS (206.135.204.2) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 01:20 pm: |
PHILLYSOULMAN; YOU'VE CERTAINLY PLAYED ON SOME GREAT TRACKS. IMPRESSIVE LIST OF CREDENTIALS! SPEAKING OF GREAT GUITARS NO LONGER IN OUR POSSESSION, MY BROTHER ONCE GOT A BRAINSTORM TO TEACH ME GUITAR SINCE I HAD LIMITED MY PLAYING TO BASS. HE GAVE ME A CLASSIC WHITE STRATOCASTER FROM THE EARLY 60'S. AFTER ABOUT THREE LESSONS, AND HIM GOING OUT ON THE ROAD...I DECIDED THAT MY GUITAR PLAYING DAYS SHOULD COME TO A PREMATURE END. I ALSO NEEDED A NEW BASS AMP AT THE TIME, SINCE I WAS PLAYING THROUGH A RUN OF THE MILL 15 INCH MAGNATONE, WHICH DID NOT MATCH WELL WITH MY FENDER JAZZ BASS..THUS, I TRADED THE STRATOCASTER IN ON AN AMPEG B-15. GREAT AMP...BUT I SURE WISH THAT I STILL HAD THAT STRATOCASTER...AND MY BROTHER STILL WON'T GET OFF MY CASE FOR DISPOSING OF MY JAZZ BASS...STU
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 01:47 pm: |
Philly soul man
The whole motown catalogue contains quite challenging guitar work, which has tended to be overlooked in favour of heavy rock music, it is a shame because guitarists worldwide could learn a lot about the intricate chords and rythyms that were used,i know that i have learnt a lot from them.
The Philly stuff is also in the same category,i particulary like the wes montgomery style octaves
that were played. It gives the records a completely distinctive sound.were these played on the Les Paul or a hollowbody?
If you have a preference, What gauge strings do you prefer??
By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 02:04 pm: |
Bobby : Along with the Funk Brother guitarists, I always admired the interlocking guitar grooves youse guys in Philly worked out. One of my favorite examples is William DeVaughn's "Be Thankful For What You've Got". It's amazing to me that each guitar part is doing something interesting and yet none get in the way of the vocalist. Do you have any special memories of that session?
Steve K.
By JimJazz (205.188.209.38) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 04:01 pm: |
Ref. Joe's jazz credentials, there is a shot of him from the mid-forties playing with Milt Jackson at Club Sudan in "Before Motown".
By Eli (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 04:18 pm: |
Soulboy, the octave parts were usually Norman Harris playing a Gretsch switch-o-matic hollow body from the late fifties I believe with thick flat wound strings, usually La Bellas( the thickest gauge) To me they felt like telephone polls but Norm loved 'em.
There are exceptions, as in Hope That We Can Get Together Soon by H.M. and the Bluenotes featuring Sharon Paige where I played both the Wes stuff and the wah wah part. There are quite a lot of other ones where I double as in For The Love Of Money where I play that wah-wah part and the fuzz octave accents doubling Ronnie's bass against Anthony Jackson"s phased bass line..
Ninety nine and 100% percent of the time the chinks were me even when I overdubbed them.You just had to have 'em. On the sitar stuf as in You Make Me Feel Brand New, sometimes I did the figure on the basic track and overdub the chinks and sometimes vice-versa according to the way I felt and the time of the day, usually in the A.M.
Just recently I was debating putting chinks on some of my new stuff but I played so many of them over the years, I felt as though I were turning Asian(no disrespect, only a studio joke, guys)
The grmier the strings on the sitar the better. I even played the resonating drone on some dates, I forget which ones. I even, on occasion made my guitar into a quasi sitar, of sorts.
For the most part, our sessions were fun and magical, except when the "producers" were from the outside and we felt as though we were being exploited. Those "producers" usually never knew what they wanted. Some of them would even say "just play something!!" Can you imagine that??
These clowns were commanding good budgets for that time and inept at best.
Makes you wanna open a hardware store.
"Quick, someone hand me a hammer and some 1/4 inch flat head nails, please!!!"
As for the string guage I prefer, it usually is 10's light gauge boomers.
LT... Regarding the Be Thankful session,
there was a company called Omega Sound/Sound Gems
who were a bunch of slime balls who used to advertise in the back of song magazines where it would read something.."Send us 1500 dollars and we will record your song"
The day of the session there were three acts each with one song a piece who each sent in their cash.
The first on was an obese woman who must have weighed in at close to four hundred pounds, the second was a run ofthe mill male group and voila..the third and the piece d' resistance was William DeVaughan who just knocked us out with his Curtis Mayfield thing. He sat on a high stoll with his acoustic axe and showed us the song and we ran it down in one take. The vocal was recorded in the booth at the same time and what you hear is what we got. It was a "monitor mix"
They did several quick mixes took it to NyC and the rest is a mystery beacause ol' William quit the biz to become Witness. I heard that he is back again though.
John Davis produced but Allen Felder directed it and sould have gotten co-producers credit.
By Ed Wolfrum (66.167.190.77) on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 08:05 pm: |
Eli, in Detroit we used to call the "JUST PLAY SOMETHING" sessions by KNOW NOTHING producers, Fishing Expeditions!!! As in "The FUNKS and I went on a Fishing Expedition today."
Ed
By Fenderman73 (24.189.41.194) on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 11:18 pm: |
Hey Phillysoulman, Did you play on "Dont Let The Green Grass Fool You" By Wilson Pickett? Also what kind of amps did you use with your Les Paul in those days?
Sean
By CyberCowGrrl (68.83.141.27) on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 01:50 pm: |
Joe sends a personal message to folks about music and education, that you may want to share with children you know.
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/culdesac/Stars/funkbroJoeMessina.html
best,
CyberCowGrrl
By Eli (152.163.188.68) on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 02:19 pm: |
Hey Ed,
Fishing Expeditions!! I like that.
Espescially the "song sharks" who were involved with tha afformentioned session!!!
Sometimes I felt like pulling out my hair dealing with those bozos. But professionalism prevailed an we just grinned and bared it all.
I know that the Funks had this "code" language that they used to talk about stuff unbeknownst by the "producers"
I was first aware of it when Babbitt and Andrew started recording with us in Phily and thay started talking this pig latin kinda thing and I quickly sussed out that it was a code thing"
By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 09:35 am: |
OK no offense to everybody else, but I want to hear from Joe ...
Have you gotten used to giving interviews on the road? What was your favorite town to visit promoting the film?
Did you put the guitar back under the pool table? (Hope not).
By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 12:00 am: |
Congratulations Joe Messina on the Grammy nominations.
By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170) on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:32 am: |
Congratulations Mr Messina. This is long overdue for you and your colleagues.
By outsider (63.88.160.101) on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 04:08 pm: |
When a recoard was made over 30 years ago and as all the people on this forum seem to say that at least 3 players on this tune. thr only fair thing to say would I was one of the player on this song. not "yah that was me"