By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 10:14 am:

IT'S HERE!!! in my hands, i can't believe it,
Us poor souls in the UK have had to wait a little bit longer for the soundtrack release than those lucky people in the US!!

By Ritchie (80.5.197.24) on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 10:16 am:

Well worth the wait, though - eh?

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 11:30 am:

I finally picked the soundtrack cd up this weekend. It's amazing -every bit as good as the film trailer led me to hope it would be. The instrumental mixes of "Bernadette" and "You Keep Me Hangin' On" are thoughtfully and lovingly produced. I would definately be up for a 2 or 3 cd set of similar mixes. Also, if Jamerson is the greatest bassist ever, Babbitt has to be so close behind there's no space between them. this soundtrack is a real showcase for Bob and all the Funk Brothers.
Steve K.

By john c (12.81.193.148) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 02:13 am:

I've had my CD for a couple weeks now and thought I add my 2 cents. I too loved the instrumental mixes, which along with What's Going On's "The Foundation" has been a revelation. The Funk Brothers are great. However, with a few exceptions (What Become's.. ,Shotgun), I think the vocal performances just made me appreciate the originals more. I never have liked Bootsy's singing, but he did seem to be in the spirit of things and my kids love Cool Jerk. Favorite bassline is Do You Love Me which seems to be an improvement over the original if that's possible. It really moves!

The CD raised a few questions for me:

The movie will probably fill me in, but why was Cool Jerk included? Did any Funk Brothers beside Bob Babbitt play on the original? And did Junior Walker's All-Stars not play on Shotgun? Will the "single" be credited to the Funk Brothers? Is that the J.Geils Band Seth Justman who arranged the What Become's ... great break? Where was Dennis Coffey? Where is it on the charts this week?

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 08:32 am:

To tell the truth I think Dennis should have been in on the session also. BUT I AIN'T ONE TO GOSSIP,SO YOU AIN'T HEARD THIS FROM ME.

By HW (68.37.217.106) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 08:53 am:

The Funks played/moonlighted on Cool Jerk - that classic bass line on the single is Jamerson.

Jr.'s All Stars originally played Shotgun but the song was about to get trashed - until Gordy told the Funks to pitch in.

J. Geils' Seth Justman is the brother of the film's director Paul Justman.

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.153) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 09:07 am:

I think there was a Babbitt story on the old board about he and Jamerson both believing it was themselves on the Cool Jerk record.

Regards,
Ken

By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 10:12 am:

I have now listened to the SITSOM soundtrack, and i am still very impressed. The high point for me is on 'ain't no mountain' where the whole band stops, the piano then come's in and the song changes key for about the last minute ,together with what seems like a gospel choir singing.
The CD is worth it for this moment alone, but that doesn't take anything away from the other performances, which are brilliant.
Chaka and Joan Osbourne sound as if they should have been with the funks from day one

By Steve L (209.100.86.4) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 10:17 am:

I was wondering why a Boston guy like Seth Justman
was hanging around in Detroit. Now it all makes sense.

I think that Jr. Walker played sax & sang on "Shotgun" with another All-Star singing with him, but the tracks would have been recorded by the Funk Brothers at least that's what I have been led to believe. It would have been more consistent & efficent to record with the in house musicians. In that way Jr. Walker could come off the road & record his tracks quickly. I also think that the All-Star organ player provided the bass (via footpedals) during live performances. Can anyone verify this?

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 10:33 am:

Harry,

Thanks for the answers. Allan Slutsky credits Babbitt in SITSOM Book with Cool Jerk, though. And as Ken said, Babbitt also claims to have played that line. Also, thanks for telling your story on the temporary board. Keep it up!

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.153) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 10:45 am:

One more thing about Seth Justman... while he is indeed a "Boston guy", Detroit was nuts for the J. Geils Band (and vice versa) and was more or less their second home. It was no accident that they recorded so many of their live albums at Detroit venues like the Cinderella Ballroom, Cobo Hall, and Pine Knob.

Regards,
Ken

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 11:57 am:

Babbitt was working in a band with me whan cooljerk was recorded.We learned the song because he came from the session and showed the band the song almost as it was released.So take it from there Babbitt!!!

By HW (12.110.192.128) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 12:37 pm:

whoops, my bad - I wrote it quick when I was just back from a quick trip to Philly. SORRY BABBIT!!!!

By StingBeeLee (155.139.68.10) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 01:29 pm:

I just purchased the SITSOM soundtrack and I was completely blown away by the instrumentals on the CD. I was listening to the CD on my way to a golf outing and when Bernadette came on I almost ran the car off the road!!! I have collected Motown records for a couple of years, and this CD is about as good as it gets regarding the funk brothers. I hope they come out with a CD full of the instrumental tracks with the instruments isolated as on SITSOM.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 01:57 pm:

An interesting thing about musicians is that, perhaps unlike athletics, they'll frequently just keep on getting better with age. It also doesn't seem to matter very much how often they still play. The musicianship I saw and heard in SITSOM surpassed my memories from the late '60s and I just sat there and cried.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.78) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 02:03 pm:

Never a truer word said Mr.Olhsson,regards musicians getting better with age.MEL.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 03:00 pm:

Bob,
very moving post.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 03:17 pm:

True. My teenage children can't understand why I have tears in my eyes while listening to the CD. Hopefully, they'll learn one day.

By StingBeeLee (155.139.68.10) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 03:47 pm:

Listening to the soundtrack just confirms that all of them were virtuosos at their instruments. When you study music history, usually you read about Jamerson and Benny Benjamin, but shoot, they were all stunning players. How do they compare to the wrecking crew in LA, the All for one crew in New Orleans, the Muscle Shoals/FAME crew in Alabama, Booker T. and the MG's in Memphis, the Riley Hampton crews in Chicago, the MFSB crew in Philly? I believe that most people agree that James Jamerson and Benny Benjamin were the greatest rhythm section in rock history. I'm partial because I'm from Detroit!

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 08:51 pm:

StingBee...

I'm with you on Jamerson. For me, he doesn't really 'play' a part. It's more like he's "breathing" his parts. And they're not really parts because he flows the whole damn song so well.

He's Jazz, RB, Soul, Pop all at the same time.

Man never played the same bar twice yet never lost the flavor of the section or tune. Brilliant and sensitive nuance in just about every bar he played.

Man's a genius and in a class by himself.

Larry

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.151) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 12:29 pm:

Hello Gang:

The Cool Jerk rhythm section was BABBIT, Johnny Griffith, Dennis, Eddie Willis, Don Davis, Bobbie Hall, George McGreger and Mike Terry and was cut at Golden World's studio. It was one of the last outside sessions done at Golden World. George and I were recollecting that Don Davis announced after the session that the studio was now owned by Berry. I knew that this was happening as Berry had been by GW on numerous times but I was surprised that the sale was final then. I was working at Theme Productions as well as GW then in
preparation for the sale to Berry. Ollie told me that Berry was committed to that session by its prior booking. I ended up working at United soon thereafter.

Both the vocal OVDs and mix on COOL JERK were at United with United's then Chief Engineer Bill Beltz for Ollie. The mono disc references and masters were also cut at United by Jimmy Siracuse himself. How about that!!!
I know that, as he was training me on the United disk lathe (with a Grampion Cutter Head) at that time.

Danny Dallas was hired from Special Recordings soon after that session and we both worked with Ollie often.

I did another session with Ollie, after "Cool Jerk" with the same rhythm section on the Capitols, at United Sound called "We got a thing that's in the groove." Does anybody know what happen to that project?

Ed

P.S. I concur with both Ken and Bob ...the guys are as good, or better than they were 30 years ago!!! By the way I got a chance to hear Dennis Coffee's new project last week...Just wait!!!

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 12:53 pm:

Hi Ed,

Thanks for all the background info. on "Cool
Jerk"

"We Got A Thing ..." was used as the title track
for the second Capitols album. I'll see if I can lay my hands on the track listings for their
albums and post them on a separate thread

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.24) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 01:09 pm:

MrWolfrum,that was the very first record that I ever heard by The Capitols,We got a thing thats in the groove,as a youthful punk around 1970ish.Still have the sound today,thanks for the memory jerker.MEL.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 03:18 pm:

Ed:
Thank you for the 411 on "Cool Jerk." I have both the mono 45 and stereo LP - the mono single kicks ass! The Capitols even did a great version of Barbara Lewis' "Hello Stranger" which was the flip side of "Cool Jerk" - what a funky arrangement!
Regards,
KevGo

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 04:58 pm:

Speaking of the 'Cool Jerk' session, isn't George McGregor the guy who drummed on "Just Like Romeo & Juliet?" That's got to be one of the most 'heard but not HEARD' drum parts of all time. It's really creative and nowhere near as straightforward as casual listeners might think. Maybe George is the next 'unsung' Detroit musician that needs some serious props. Is he still around?
Steve K.
ps Davie - I have the 'We Got A Thing.." lp if you need some info

By StingBeeLee (209.104.137.225) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 07:04 pm:

I agree, Larry, about Jamerson, and Bernadette on the SITSOM soundtrack confirms it. I have collected Motown and Detroit soul records for over twenty years and have waited for something like this to come out. Even after listening to these records over and over, I have never, never, never heard the Funk Brothers like this, my mouth hit the floor. Bernadette is stunning, transcendent, breathtaking. They play today as if they have turned back the hands of time. Thank You, HW, from the bottom of my heart.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 07:10 pm:

George is definitely still around Detroit. And he is one of the best drummers around and deserves all the props we can give this extremely talented man. When I last talked to John Rhys he mentioned that George was going to be doing some things with him but that's all I can say about it for now.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.151) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 09:07 pm:

Yep, Thats the same George McGregor on both Cool Jerk and Romeo and Juliett...He is a wonderful drummer and a great guy too. Besides R&B, he is one of the best POP drummers I have ever worked with. A truly talented man.

By Sue (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 09:09 pm:

"Just Like Romeo and Juliet" is one of those tracks that just doesn't age, it sounds as fresh today as it did when it came out. Thanks for the story, Ed ...

By STUBASS (205.188.209.38) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 10:16 pm:

GREETINGS THREAD; SPEAKING OF "COOL JERK" AND THE CAPITALS, DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT GROUP AND THEIR LEAD SINGER...I THINK HIS NAME WAS SAM GEORGE. I MET HIM ONCE AND ONLY REMEMBER HE HAD A BIG DIAMOND RING WITH A HUGE CLUSTER OF DIAMONDS WHICH MAY HAVE REPRESENTED HIS ENTIRE ROYALTY CHECK

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 10:46 pm:

"Jazz, RB, Soul, Pop all at the same time. "

They ALL, along with rock and roll pretty much come out of the Chick Webb band of the 1920s and '30s. James and all of the Motown musicians are an integral part of the "east coast swing" school of American music.

What you hear are those roots, the impeccable sense of where the time lies. I never knew exactly what to call it until recently but it's "that swing" that's missing in so much contemporary music.

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 11:38 pm:

I believe Sam George was murdered in the late '70s or early '80s. I think one of the other members passed in the 80s as well
Steve K.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 09:27 am:

Here's the track listings for the two Capitols albums

"Cool Jerk" Carla / Atco SD33-188 1966
COOL JERK (Don Storball)
MY GIRL (Robinson - White)
I GOT MY MOJO WORKING (McKinley Morganfield)
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE (James Brown,Johnny Terry)
IN THE MIDNIGHT HOUR ( Cropper, Pickett)
GOOD LOVIN' (Clark, Resnick)
LOVE MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND (Deon Jackson)
ZIG ZAGGIN' (Don Storball)
DOG AND CAT (Don Storball)
HELLO STRANGER (Barbara Lewis)
TIRED OF RUNNING FROM YOU (Don Storball)
THE KICK (Don Storball)
Prod. Ollie McLaughlin

"We Got A Thing That's In The Groove"
Carla/Atco SD33-201 1966

KNOCK ON WOOD (Cropper, Floyd)
HOLD ON I'M COMING (Hayes, Porter)
OPEN THE DOOR TO YOUR HEART (Darrell Banks)
LET'S GO GET STONED (Ashford,Simpson,Armstead)
WORKING IN THE COAL MINE (Allen Toussaint)
WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN (Carter, Wright)
WE GOT A THING THAT'S IN THE GROOVE (Don Storball)
WILD THING (Chip Taylor)
IT'S BOOGALOO TIME (Storball, Griffith, Greene)
I FEEL ALRIGHT
TIRED OF RUNNING FROM YOU (Don Storball)
I GOT TO HANDLE IT
Prod. Ollie McLaughlin

Missing writer credits would be appreciated,
I can then include them the details in a listing
for Ollie McLaughlin's labels

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 10:25 am:

Davie; the missing writer credits are as follows ; "I Feel Alright" (Jimmy James) and "I Got to Handle it" (Barney Browner). The Capitols' "Wild Thing" is a trip.
Steve K.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 10:49 am:

Thanks Steve

I've never heard the second album - can't imagine
what "Wild Thing"'s like : -)

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 01:33 pm:

Bob,

I first head of Chick Webb in Scorseses' Taxi Driver, but, apart from Ken Burn's documentary I don't know much about his music. Any recommended recordings? And are you saying some of the Funks played with Chick??

Also, know that Swing-ability is still the litmus test of a fine rhythmic musician. I'm playing Bop with a young drummer for a young crowd. The buzz in the club is still about SWING.
Those who can Do, those who can't play Rock.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.63) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

Hey Larry,it dont mean a thing,if it aint got that swing.MEL.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 03:26 pm:

Shoo-Bop, Shoo-Bop, Shoo-Bop, Shoo-Bop!
Shoo-Bop, Shoo-Bop, Shoo-Wow.....!

(all rights reserved, copyright Edward Kennedy Ellington)

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 05:09 pm:

I think Chick Webb pre-dates most of the Funk Brothers by quite some time. He died way back in 1939, but was highly influential, and is regharded as one of the finest Jazz drummers of all time. Buddy Rich once said of his playing, "every beat was like a bell." His band commemorated their residency at the famous Savoy Ballroom with the now-classic "Stompin' At The Savoy." He's also notable for launching the careers of Ella Fitzgerald - and Louis Jordan.

BTW, there's a lovely pic of the hunch-backed Chick at the drums, with a gorgeous young Ella at the mic.

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79) on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 05:56 pm:

Davie; I don't know how into splitting hairs about writer credits you are, but I just noticed some slight differences on that Capitols' lp. First, the song is actually 'It's GOOGALOO Time', believe it or not. That's what they sing too, it's not just a misprint on the jacket and label. They don't really explain what a 'googaloo' is, though. Storball's not listed as a writer on that , either. Also, "Open the Door..." is credited to Murphy Lawrence and Darrell Eubanks, which surprised me because on a compilation cassette I have, only Darrel (Eu)banks is credited. Also, "When A Man..." is credited to Calvin Lewis and Andrew Wright.
Like I say, I don't know how much of a stickler for that stuff you are, but if you're going to list it for posterity somewhere, I thought I'd let you know what the lp credits say.
Steve K.

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 11:37 am:

So were getting the to old cliche that rock musicians can only play rock,eh. In detroit in the 60s& 70s almost every bar that had a band made that band stick to mostly rock or find another job. Most of the musicians I worked with, or sat in with,or went to hear, were like chameleons,they could play what ever anyone would pay them money to play. You played rock to feed your family and pay the bills you played jazz for fun. Of course there were jazz clubs around town,but they didn't pay well and there weren't a whole lot of them. The strictly jazz musicians thought they were better,but when they sat in with a bar group, they didn,t have the drive needed to push the band,we thought they were great,but the owners thought different. When I was young in the fiftys,I loved do-wop,Jimmy Reed,and all gospel music. But when an old 30s or40s movie would come on with Jimmy Launceford or Chick Webb band playing I would be glued to the T.V.That was the best!!!!
Of course this is just my opinion.
If you go to the Jackie Wilson thread in the archives you can read a story I wrote about the holier than thou musicians that thought rock musicians were an abomination on mankind.
Those that can do those that can't play rock,INDEED!!!!

By Larry (63.209.95.190) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 01:28 pm:

Lynn,

With all respect, my subject was swing-ability. That it's alive and well with younger kids.
I wasn't cutting rock players, the "chameleons" or the ones that don't have the Funk and can't swing. I respect ALL good music and musicians.

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 04:44 pm:

Larry ,let me buy you a drink ,your cool!!!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 04:53 pm:

Lynn

Are you still coming to Scotland in the next year or two?

David

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 05:10 pm:

David,were talking about 2003,the month is yet to be determined. spring or fall,most likely.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 05:35 pm:

Please don't make it end of May! 'cause we might pass ech other over the big pond.

Sincerely, looking forward to meeting you.

David

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 08:04 pm:

I totally concur with Bob. As groundbreaking as James' bass playing was his style was rooted firmly in swing. It's more obvious, of course, on shuffle type songs like Marvin's "How Sweet It Is" and the Tempts' "My Baby" but it lies at the heart of his impeccable feel and groove.

As for Larry and Lynn, it's not really "rock vs. swing". Rock was rooted in swing bands like Louis Jordan and Bill Haley (interesting to hear the Jordan-Chick Webb connection) and good rock players rock AND swing.

- Gary Rosen

By Lynn Bruce (64.53.143.164) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 09:05 pm:

Gary I have to agree with you and Bob also,when I hear Louis Jordon,Jimmy Launceford,and the combos of the late 40,s/early 40s, and groups like Ike turner had when he was younger in the 50s, I hear where we came from.
Lynn

By Larry (65.59.24.187) on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 11:09 pm:

Lynn,
Scotch rocks or whatever you got left.
L

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 01:41 am:

Interesting stuff about Cool Jerk, I did'nt know till recently that it was the Funk's playing on it. I bought the album in the UK at the time it was released here, on Atlantic. They were called the Three Caps. I've also got an instrumental version of Cool Jerk somewhere, have to dig it out and have a listen now I know who's playing on it. Regards, dave.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.49) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 08:26 am:

Soulie Dave,good inst.you mention there.Wasnt it called Cool Jerk 68 on the Label?I Have Cool Jerk on English Atlantic as The Capitols and on Atlantic import as The Three Caps.Regards Mr.Don Storball,I Had some of my Valtone records out and on the Clarence Jackson Demo copy of If it dont fit,Dont force it(vocal)it states under Clarences name,Produced and Arranged by Don Storball who also produced and Sung `Cool Jerk.Cheers MEL.

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 01:31 pm:

MEL&THEN SOME The instrumantal version of Cool Jerk I have is on an old 70's compilation LP of mainly Atlantic stuff, hence no label info.

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 01:54 pm:

MEL&THEN SOME, And its in the loft. I think it just says Cool Jerk - The Capitols, But i'll check next time i'm up there. Thanks.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.151) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 02:09 pm:

Mel,

Cool Jerk was produced by Ollie McLaughlin and written by Don Starball. Don did not produce Cool Jerk. There is enough revisionist history going down without our need to change it.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.68) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 02:37 pm:

ED,sorry,I was just stating what it says on the actual Valtone record Label in front of me.So they have obviously messed up big time there.MEL.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.68) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 02:46 pm:

ED,by the way that is exactly what it says directly underneath Clarence Jacksons name in bold lettering.It just shows what kind of things must of been going on then.Just look at the chaos that could of occured,thanks for putting me straight.MEL.SoulieDave,thanks for the reply.

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 02:17 am:

MEL and All, Talking about instrumental versions or backing tracks of songs. Sometimes I like to listen to the musicians and the groove they are putting down without the distraction of the lyrics If i can. I am not a musicain and hav'nt a clue how to play any instrument but I know what sounds good to me. (they all sound good to me). One song I would love to hear without the words is "YOU'VE BEEN IN LOVE TOO LONG/MARTHA & VANDELLAS" It has a heavy bass driven beat/groove/funk whatever to die for. I'm assuming Jamerson (65). MEL, dig it out, turn the volume up and tell me if you aggree. I could dance all night to sounds like this. regards. Dave.

By HW (68.37.217.106) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 10:17 am:

It's interesting to hear what 'works' without the vocals. Allan Slutsky and I were convinced tracks like My Baby Loves Me would be the bomb as an instrumental. The guys play GREAT of course, but as a listening experience it wears thin after the first couple of times. If I have time in the studio we'll get to 'You've Been In love Too Long'

By Flynny (213.1.136.216) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 01:10 pm:

Don Storball also co-wote (along with Mathews & Bennett) a track called "I won't cry" for Tony Daniels on Beval Records...it's also published by Storball Publishing.

Mel - the stock copies of that Clarence Jackson 45 also have the instrumental take on the flip...which yes is a slightly later recording (or alternate?) of "You've got it and I want it" by Andre Williams on Ric-Tic and "Determination" by the Fabulous Apollos also on Valtone.

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.153) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 01:23 pm:

While reading the lastest postings in the Joe Messina thread, I was thinking that "It's a Shame" would be a perfect candidate for the deconstructionist treatment afforded Bernadette and You Keep Me Hanging On on the SitSoM soundtrack.

On the other hand, of all of the great vocal tracks layed down for Motown, G.C. Cameron's lead has to be one of the Hall of Fame moments, and the backing vocals are right up there, too. Maybe it deserves an a capella track, as well.

Regards,
Ken

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.54) on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 07:12 pm:

soulieDave,I Agree with you entirely mate.You cant beat a good old frantic beat and like yourself I am a total novice when it comes to being musically gifted.But like to think that I know a good record when I hear one.I have been delving through loads of sounds that would maybe sound good as an instrumental.Youve got me at it now mate.Imagine say Tell me its just a rumour or Baby hit and Run,just for starters.And thats just off the top of my swede.Catch you later Dave.Flynny,Im in full agreement m ate,I was just stating to Dave what is on the C.Carter Label.Ill keep my gob shut next time.Always the rarer of the 2,the issue with the great instrumental on the flip.Dated around 1972 or thereabouts(the record is upstairs so if the dates wrong,wow)but has the unmistakable 60s 4 beats to the bar that moves it along.MEL.

By soulie dave uk (62.254.64.5) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:42 am:

HW and MEL thanks for the response about instrumentals. HW, good point about a lot of them losing their interest after a few plays. Though one that has stood the test of time in my view is Agent oo Soul (inst) leaving the haunting backing singers on the record here and there sounds great. MEL, "Tell me is just a rumour" (inst) is on Celarfull and sounds great. Ginger Taylor played "just a little missundrstanding" (inst) the other week at a North East soul night. that sounds great too. Regards.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.98) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 03:18 am:

SoulieDave,IDidnt know they cut insts of those I mentioned.So many great inst. around.Regard the OO Soul,I Had it by John Schroeder,Sonny Stitt,Edwin starr,apart as others.I Have a lot of inst.Bari Track,Sop it up,Suzys Serenade,Uptight,All of our Days,Working at the go-go,All turned on,6x6,Soul stomp,True Patron of the arts,Rat Race,Little Queenie,Billys Bag,Al Kent,The Belles,Rnb Time,Triumphs,Markeys,South Like West,Rinky Dink,Sounds of Lane,Detroit Land Apples,Sons of Moses,TKOS,Marketts,Kaddo strings,Freddie McCOY,Jesus Dave,better stop There as I am getting carried away slightly.Catch you later,MEL.

By David Meikle (213.122.184.45) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 04:05 am:

Sidra's Theme takes some beating.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:21 am:

I just received my cd and played it. Excellent stuff and I cannot wait to see the two showings of the movie in London in November!

With reference to the instrumentals. I have been analysing the Motown sound since I was fifteen years old and first was aware of a relationship to these hit records at that time. The 'Standing' bass book I bought around 1992 (?) was the biggest step forward for me as it gave me a history lesson, musical notation which I can read a little and 2 audio cassettes. That book made me buy a left-handed bass guitar! I tried to learn a few notes and struggled, but now with a right-handed one, which I picked up in February this year, I am starting to improve. My point is this music has entered into another dimension. As well as retaining its appeal to the radio stations and having an 'oldie' value, it appears in movies, nightclubs, disco's and for us Brits, we hear it in its most obscure form in Northern Soul venues and associated radio programmes. In addition, I am sure there are hundreds of people who want to know more about the sound. Because I like to think I am a little musical, the instrumentals on the cd are of immense importance to me in my quest to 'see how they did it'. Allan S, you must have sat down for hours and hours trying to pick out those bass lines for the book? And look now; who would have thought 13 years later you would be on the Internet discussing a movie soundtrack with the world, which is of great commercial interest to those who have invested in it. I feel the educational value of these instrumental mixes is important today, for both young and old interested in making good quality music, in addition to those fans who just love an alternative mix. Whether a release could be packaged in such a way that it gives an educational flavour to the cd, i.e. includes original hit single versions along with the instrumental, plus notation, history, technique studies and the like. I know I shall be still trying to learn in 20 years, but should such a cd be available, I would pay handsomely for it. I could not care less whether it was budget at a tenner or thirty quid, I would buy it for many reasons.

When I visited the Motown museum in 1999 I bought the 'Motown, the music and the story' educational material in the box. Segment 5 is called 'arranging and playing the Motown sound' and in it is a copy of 'Someday -we'll be together' hand written sheet music. It clearly shows Gil Askey arranging for The Supremes and all the musical parts. According to this: 2 alto/2 tenor/1 bari sax were used. For me, the dimension I am in justifies the purchase of any material available that helps me with my musical studies about the Motown Sound. If 'Standing in the Shadows' number 2 and 3 come out, I will go and see them. I feel there is money to be made with this angle and I am convinced it will encourage many to pick up a musical instrument rather than plonk away with a loop in a sequencer! Call me old fashioned, but the inspiration this music has is heavenly and I feel so privileged to mention these points here on the forum to those who could organise something of this nature. I am available for consultations!!!!!

By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:42 am:

Carl
That's precisely what i think! I like to analyse the music, chord patterns,structures, rythyms etc
There's a whole load of musical information in there just waiting to be explioted, whether you play bass,guitar, keyboads,drums,or just about anything else. I don't think it's ever been taken seriously by anyone to date,(except doctor licks) it's about time someone woke up to this fact.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:26 am:

Agreed soulboy - whether it could be a serious venture who knows, but I am sure Dr. Licks will agree, his products sell and hopefully well enough to release other products in future. His passion has helped me tremendously with my studies and look what he has done for us with the film. Thank god Elliot Productions had faith in this, but the spin offs could be interesting in years to come from other areas. If I had the clout I would suggest to people like Jack Ashford, for example, if he would be interested in a biography tv programme about him! The TV channel resides within our company in London. The movie could be the stepping stone to the accompanying tv series AND supprting DVD's, for purchase privately with the 'extras' They could do all the Funks, get it in the can forever! Cue Paul Elliot/Dr Licks!! I know it is none of my business, but they say, 'your business is my pleasure' and it is also part of my life. I could go on forever. I have some idea about production, but I know nothing about copyrights and things like that. It can and will be done one day, it just takes that magic touch to get it started.

Just played Barbara Mcnair/On a clear day, from the album 'from Broadway to Hollywood' - great great stuff. Current or what?

By Larry (64.156.145.224) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:41 am:

Carl and Soulboy,
You guys are right on the mark. The music is deceptively deep and worthy of study. What I find interesting after all these years of hearing the Motown hits with their immediate hooks in the Vocal Melodies is the foundations in those songs.

You get instant access with the melody, then you hear the band is tight, but, you almost take it for granted because the Melodies are so infectious. Throw some headphones on and WHAM! the great arrangements, the guitar work, strings etc. and the impeccable feel and choices in the rhythm section are a Study in themselves. Rockin' quality Productions, Arrangements and Performances. The whole shmeer!

I'd never heard Motown in headphones until recently. The sh_t cooks. Goosebumps! That's why this hardcore music fan/player has such renewed respect for what those folks did and how I've never heard it duplicated since.

The foundations of these tracks, The Funks... well, what more can be said? It's magical. I'll crosspost comments, but, that Magic comes from Love and Knowledge and Teamwork like Bob Ohlsson, Joe and the others have said. Course to find that Joe Messina played flats on a stock tele body with Jazzmaster neck, well, I dig that info and where else can you get the inside scoop but SD?

Motown was a phenomenon, like the Beatles.
Until it gets duplicated, we'll still be talking about like it happened yesterday.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:56 pm:

I am stictly an amateur but, i was curious what i sounded on guitar like playing along with a funks track. So with a piece of software i have, i proceeded to record myself along side several tracks. Two things were immediately apparent on playback. I could not duplicate the machine-like precision even on playing a backbeat. The second lesson i learnt was that the balance or the mix was crucial to the whole sound.
Anyone who thinks this stuff is easy to play think again, you cannot hide behind distortion or
time-delay effects, it's got to be sounding clean and precise!

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:18 pm:

It's no big deal really. Make sure you got big ears, can play to a metronome and put in 4 hours a day for 5 years. A little Jazz Theory or part-time work in a Classical Orchestra can't hurt.

Yeah, these guys were MONSTER players. Best of the best. It's great you're trying to play along to them. You're settin' yer sights high!

By john c (12.81.196.138) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 02:02 am:

Got my Slow Gold transcription software out and read in the instrumental tracks, slowed them down and compared them with Dr.Licks transcriptions. Mr. Slutsky did a great job. Especially considering the original mixes and (probably) no phrase samplers to work with in the 80's.

By Larry (63.210.116.131) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 02:08 am:

Cool John. I own NO Dr. Licks stuff. Gotta check it out.

Totally off topic, but, to our Northern Soul brothers and sisters in Manchester, UK:
There's Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin On" ehh?

15 quakes hit Manchester in 24 hours
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/nmhp-home_news-99198-4

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:19 am:

Larry/John C - well, here I am with track 4 of the SITSOM CD playing and looking at Dr Licks bass book of the same name, page 128 to be precise and working out how all this came together. Bernadette was never a favourite of mine, but it is now! I can clearly hear the 'harpsichord' style instrument in the background for the first time. I first step recorded the bass line from 'Ain't no mountain high enough' into my Yamaha V50 in 1992.From then on I was hooked. I even bought a bass guitar, realising that electronically I would rather have the real thing. The ultimate pleasure is to close my eyes, listen and go to studio 'A' and be part of that energy. Who would have thought all those years ago, that today we would be paying homage to our heroes in this way on the forum, with the very technology that has complicated music a little. I recommend the Dr Licks bass guitar book 100%. The photos, stories and music are superb.

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:27 am:

Carl,

I didn't care much for Bernadette either, but it was the first Jamerson bassline that blew me away. I could hum the line at work all day, but it was sure hard to learn to play. Next month's Bass Player features Jamerson, just in time for SITSOM!

By Larry (64.156.144.171) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:58 am:

Carl,
If you're into Jamerson and a bass player and want to get blown away, listen to
The Spinners "It's a Shame".
Stevie's "For Once In My Life".
" "Thank You Love".
With my renewed love and exploration of Motown (thank you SD), I realize even the seemingly simplest songs (eg. My Guy) upon close inspection reveal such nuance that as I've said before, the guys out of this world, top of the heap (IMO).

I also notice that to emulate can be dangerous (for me). I start to lose my own voice out of sheer awe of his talent and my intense studying to duplicate him. I got (((deeply))) inside his tracks and honestly I'll say, it was scary.
Mad Genius??? Absolutely!

You know the saying "Knowledge can be dangerous".
Not to compare, but, do I really want to meet G-d?
Mmmmmm, nah...I'll wait my turn.

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:22 pm:

Carl and Soulboy,

Jamerson wasn't just about "chops". Listen carefully to the bass on songs like "Don't Mess With Bill" and Marvin Gaye's "How Sweet It Is". James' groove is a mile wide and his tone is *five* miles deep! That's as much a part of his sound as the pyrotechnics on "For Once In My Life" and "Bernadette". With all his technique, he never played just to show it off, every note meant something.

Of course, *all* the Funks are cooking on these sides. In spite of what some (well one anyway) have said in this thread, the Funks could get as greasy and funky as Stax/Volt or James Brown as they showed on sides like "Shotgun" and DMWB. That they could then turn around and create such timeless pop masterpieces as "My Girl" and "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" is a tribute to their talent, versatility and soul.

- Gary Rosen

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:31 pm:

That word emulate always worries me...

The funks were building on the FOUNDATION of swing exactly as the bop players and early rock players were. Remember than dancing is a big part of the musical context. You danced the same "swing step" to early Motown that you did to Chick Webb and Louis Jordan. This is another part of what's different today, most of the kids I see aren't doing any specific dance steps.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:27 pm:

Right on Gary. Great records you picked and so well put about 'Deep and Wide'. Yeah, everything about his playing is unique and every note counted.

Bob,
I used the word emulate. Only in the sense of copping someone's lick to figure out the how and why, maybe learn something about left hand technique or position. I wasn't talking about losing one's uniqueness - just in case that's where you were going.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 12:29 pm:

Larry, I meant to add a smiley after my remark about emulation!

I don't believe one can EVER really lose one's uniqueness but that's probably a double-edged sword. What's important to me is the focus that makes music vivid. If a person is afraid of being themselves, what comes across is fearfulness diluting their music. On the other hand, hearing James TURNED us all into James in a sense. I'll never forget the expressions that crossed his face as he played and I've often suggested that players adopt some of his attitudes. In other words, don't try to play like James, go ahead and BE James building on his foundation.

My greatest personal lesson from working at Motown was learning how to expand my identity to include others rather than getting caught in the trap of defining myself in terms of how I'm different.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 05:13 pm:

Profound words Bob. If I get you right, your outlook asks 'how can I incorporate instead of differentiate'? It's all a balance isn't it?
Thanks Bob.

OT, where is Rolling Stone Magazine's review of SITSOM Soundtrack? Paul? Anyone?

By Paul Elliott (209.204.150.192) on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 10:35 pm:

Rolling Stone Magazine's review of SITSOM Soundtrack --

The review is in the current edition (issue #908, Oct 31, on page 148): "Women in Rock" is the cover story. The reviewer had nothing but nice things to say, but ended up giving us three stars (out of five). I would have given it five, but that's just me!

I believe that there is a larger article on the film coming out in the next issue or so. I'm definitely looking forward to it -- hope they like it!

-Paul

By SteveS (211.130.66.158) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 03:01 pm:

Here's an different perspective on the soundtrack. I'm in Japan right now traveling by car with business associates. They typically listen to what appear to be bootleg collections of American oldies. Their perception of Motown is somewhat vague - everything from Chuck Berry to the Platters to the Temps falls under the Motown umbrella, and they never realized that Motown was associated with Detroit. I had the SITSOM CD with me and put it on in the car. I told them the story behind it but it didn't seem to mean much to them. However, they can't stop playing the CD. The really interesting thing is that each time they play it they repeat track 4 (Bernadette) at least twice and all sing along with the bass part. So, they aren't familiar with Jamerson or the Funk's, or even Motown, when you get right to it, it just sounds like real good music to them. Fortunately, I stuffed my suitcase with CD's which I will give to all as gifts. I hope the movie comes here eventually so they can get the bigger picture.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 03:31 pm:

That's a great story Steve-San!

By padgburyman (195.93.49.10) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 04:11 pm:

Yes, is Jamerson the star player? Bernadette sends shivers down the spine.

Not so sure about 'The Flick'. It has a definite groove, but it does not convey any form of hit material (to me).

The rest of the CD is 'top notch' (eh Mel?). Just sit back and enjoy it. Do not worry about a thing.

Padgburyman

By Larry Rott (216.23.183.2) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 04:55 pm:

I got my Rolling Stone and the following email was just sent to their Editors:

I've been a subscriber for a while and I'm a bit outraged at your lack of coverage of this new release.
It doesn't even appear on your CD reviews section online.

You guys need to pull your heads out of your *&#@%.

Paul McCartney, John Paul Jones, Sting and every other fine Bass Star were all influenced by James Jamerson - the mad Genius at Motown who along with the Funk Brothers WERE the Motown Band.

You guys give a blurb on the CD, 3 stars and that's it???
It shows just how Rolling Stone is a mirror reflection of the Mediocre, re-hashed b.s. the population has been having to suck on for years.
That RS couldn't pay proper Homage to the 60's soul-funk-RB extravaganza coming out of Detroit makes me sick.

Cancel my subscription immediately.

Signed,

Acct# R0307R102

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 05:22 pm:

my 2nd and last email (rant) to Rolling Stone:

Don't you guys realize this is The Funk Brothers Final Hurrah???

They coulda been front cover material, Reminding everyone about Jazz roots in Rock,
Bands that stay together make Great music, A Dynasty created in Detroit in the 60's,
From the land of the MC5 and the first punk Iggy.

You missed the boat big time. Is it too late to make amends??

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 05:29 pm:

Larry,
very well done pal. A few months back I let my subscription to Rolling Stone lapse because I felt they had kind of lost what they once had. Other than a few well written ( and generally on a subject unrelated to music ) articles, it became tedious for me to thumb through twenty pages of slick advertsing to find anything at all to read.I really do feel that Rolling Stone's taste in music has, like most of the listening public, been dumbed down.Too bad.

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 05:36 pm:

Ralph,
almost infuriating at the neglect of this important work. From the Funks to Dr. Licks to the Film... and only a blurb in RS w/no tie-in to the film, the website. Hack job.
I'm reminded, as my old buddy who died recently once quoted (Alan Watts?)

"Expect nothing, live frugally on surprise".

Well not this time around!!!!

By HW (12.110.192.128) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 06:09 pm:

My attitude is, considering Rolling Stone's editorial outlook at present, and the market/age realities of their readership, it is a miracle they covered the movie and reviewed the soundtrack at all. So while I am left a little bewildered it didn't get over the 3-star hump, I still tip my hat to them for making the space in a very crowded entertainment world to preview the movie (twice) and to give the soundtrack a little visibility, plus a photo of Chaka Khan that anchored the album review on the page to boot. All this months and weeks before the movie is out.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 06:39 pm:

They weren't exactly enthusiastic about us the first time around either and we frequently were held up as the perfect example of manufactured pop music. I think this was because we didn't make a good enough "outlaw" story and they were a lot more into writing compelling fiction about "the scene" than honestly turning people on to great music. Ironically Rolling Stone was almost the beginning of lifestyle marketing which is what spawned the seriously manufactured musical dreck we are inundated with today.

By SITSOM or DIE (216.23.183.2) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 08:22 pm:

Bob,
The irony indeed. I'm turnin into a cranky old bastard about the RS hack job on our beloved SITSOM. No offense Harry.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 09:08 pm:

ATTENTION: THIS THREAD IS GETTING LENGTHY. tIME TO CLOSE IT. PLEASE CONTINUE ON THE NEW STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN-THE MOVIE THREAD....THIS THREAD IS CLOSED......../////===**************&&&&&&&%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

By Ralph Terrana (ralph) (209.240.198.62) on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 09:17 pm:

I mean...STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTWN SOUNDTRACK-2 sorry...a little tired tonight