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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 73
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mad colorful, great album covers, and so on... Thank God they relied on the flix, cause the writting was horrific and spastic... Enjoy...

http://www.djsportal.com/en/pi oneer/index.php?id=salrec

Peace!
Isaiah
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1537
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thats nice.
It would have been really nice if the artists and all involved were PAID for those records!!
NO ONE made a fu***ng dime from all of that stuff except the principles in the company who are billionaires!
Even us musicians got bullshit pay for all of those sessions that we did for them.
No even union scale and NO benefits!!
There are lawsuits galore relative to get monies owed but the statute of limitations circumvents any monies owed pre-1996!!!

All that glitters is NOT gold....except of course for the principles!!
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2230
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 5:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah: good link there!! Man, I reminisced looking at all of those covers. I'm fortunate in that I have about 75% of those records & LPs. Some of them I've never heard of. It brings back some real good memories of growing up in that mid to late '70s era. In my opinion, that was that last really good era to party in & to grow up in. We know all too well what happened, starting in 1983 or so. Those Disco days was nothing but pure unadulterated fun, when a man could go up to a woman & not get a bunch of attitude. God, I wish that I could go back there for a vacation every year!!!

Bobby: You show us the other side of the coin. Talk about exploitation!! The thing that gets me about all of this is that back then, no one knew from CD re-issues & I doubt that anyone really thought that that music would have the impact & staying power that it's proven to have.

It's amazing that they can get away without paying anyone royalties or anything. If it were me, I would be livid to see so many people getting fat, while the atrists get virtually nothing for their efforts. Trust me, I'd hire Paulie, Ralphie & Joey Three Shoes to do some gentle persuading here.

I notice that you said that the Statue Of Limitations is in effect here. But, I know for a fact that there is much of this material being bootlegged like crazy. I guess that much of it is aided by the fact that much of it is manufactured outside of the U.S. There are record stores here in N.Y.C. selling BLATANT bootleg copies! This crap has been going o for far too long & it shows you that the business can be such a nasty one. A few folks get fat, while the artists whom we loved may be living a hand to mouth existence. It must be so disheartening for many of them to hear their music lauded & played incessantly, while they receive ZERO compensation. That's got to be a bitter pill to swallow.

And they blame it all on illegal downloading....

BULLSHIT!!!
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Manny (manny)
6-Zenith
Username: manny

Post Number: 434
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.124.51.48
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 7:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Submarine, Salsoulful friends!

Hey, Isaiah,
Thanks for give us this interesting link. I have "lost" more than one hour of work reading the biographie of Vince Montana and his interwiew! (Smile!).
Very nice picks, specially the one of Vince and Charo (what a sexy woman!). Also, very good remembrances only seen the album covers as "Jingo" by Cándido Camerón or "Sing Sing" by Gaz.

I see a Lp cover by Tierra, a group that in another thread i say that i believed that recorded on Salsoul (or were distributed by) and somebody says to me that never recorded for this label. There are (or was) two different groups called "Tierra"?

There are some times in this web-site that says "Gold-Mine" records when the correct is "Gold MInd" (two diferent labels).

Sorry to know what happened with the royalties theme, etc. as explains Bobby Eli and also Vincent Montana in his interwiew... the dark side of the "celestial" world of music from the point of wiew of the simply aficionados!

Also in a biography by Joe Bataan, he tolds "Salsoul" is a title of a song writed by him (in his Mericana Records period) and in this web-site seems as was Vincent Montana the "inventor" of the word.

I'm not sure about you exactly says refering to CD re-issues, brother Juicefree. I have some original Salsoul albums re-issues in UK Charly as "Charly-Salsoul" (licensed by Bethlem Music). And appart from these i have, the booklet contains advertising info about many other albums (all by Salsoul Orch., Loleatta Holloway, Instant Funk and others, appart from compilations).

Peace and (Sal)Soul Food
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 76
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 8:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Thats nice.
It would have been really nice if the artists and all involved were PAID for those records!!
NO ONE made a fu***ng dime from all of that stuff except the principles in the company who are billionaires!
Even us musicians got bullshit pay for all of those sessions that we did for them.
No even union scale and NO benefits!!
There are lawsuits galore relative to get monies owed but the statute of limitations circumvents any monies owed pre-1996!!!"

Bobby, sorry about you guys not getting paid, but to do all of that work, and continue to go back and get your heads bumped by these folks, says to me that you all weren't organized in that so-called union... We've discussed this at this board a zillion times, and few, if any, ever call the artist on how they could be cheated so unmercifully so consistently... I am a believer that there exists more than one side to a story, and it seems the artists wont tell the FuLL story...

Most of us everyday working folk work for large corporations and small, municipal and private institutions, and we get our money every week or bi-weekly for the work we put out... I cannot see how a Union fails to get their people paid, and nobody is in court all the way up to the damned Supreme Court of the United States... I have, myself, taken a Union, as well as the company I worked for to the National Labor Relations Board regarding retro wages, and such, and no court case was needed once this federal agency got involved...

My point is that there are avenues, particularly when one has the consultation of decent attorneys, to get these issues resolved without Paulie Three Shoes, and all that(smile!) How you gone get'cha money from Paulie once he's gotten it for ya, anyway???(smile!)

Like I said, I just think those musicians failed themselves by not organizing their resources better, organizing their union in a way that would secure for them a good collective bargaining agreement from the label owners, and from the industry themselves... If they would've organized so that no one who played on those records were non-union, for example, this would stop the label from usurping the union's power by hiring non-union people...

Problem in that industry is that folks are off on their own little ego trips, and nobody wants to organize their resources to protect the whole... As a result, these horror stories shall continue happen... That's entertainment...

Peace!
Isaah
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2240
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's up Isaiah!!!

You bring up a pretty good point as regards the union & the organization. Now, I was no musician but, let me tell you what I think may have happened here.

Back in the day, we knew some neighborhood brothers who put out some records & these brothers were just so happy to have a record out, that they'd have done it for free.....IN THE BEGINNING, that is. The business smarts came AFTER the burn process. By that time, the contract was already signed (usually without the benefit of counsel) & that was always one-sided in favor of the company. That's probably why we can't find so many of those artists of the 60s & 70s. The taste of the music industry was probably so bitter that they want no reminders of it.

Now, as for the musicians, I think that it was just another session for most of the fellas. I just don't believe that they thought for one minute that Disco would have lasted as long as it did, or it's popularity would be a huge as it still is. As such, it was probably something done to get together & jam & put a few quick dollars into their pockets. Then when I read how the musician were paid by the session, while many artists got paid only AFTER all of the recoupables were accounted for, I guess that it must not have seemed like such a bad deal at the time. Then, let's not forget that old mantra "We're a family. We're building something great & don't worry, I'll take care of you". I wonder how many label heads have said those words to their musicians through the years? Hmmmm........

Then, when you consider the case of the Stax House geniuses. Those guys weren't even aware of their popularity while they were cutting all of that great music. They spent so much time in the studio that they didn't realize that they were the true stars of the sound & ad-hoc (and uncompensated) arrangers & producers at that. It wasn't until they travelled to Europe in 1967, that they learned just how important they were. It was there that they learned that they had fan clubs & that EVERYONE knew their names. Then, they found out that they had been by definition, producers of the music & weren't receiving a production crdeit, nor the salary. There have always been an abundance of musicians. They probably figured that if they didn't go along with the status quo, there'd be someone willing to take their place. They figured that no one really knew who they were. In later years, once they learned their true value, they branched out on their own & many acheived great success on their own.

That's my take on it.

Sometimes the learning curve can be a bitch!!!

(Message edited by juicefree20 on September 06, 2004)
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 78
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, feelin' ya, and I understand that, yes, the learning curve is motha, but to continually keep going on back in there after the initial knockout punches you absorbed, and not learn how to box a little better??? Inexcusable in any walk of life... Babies fall down, and they get up, brother(smile!) Are we saying that this particular group of folks are just dumber than most folks??? Well, yo, that's what I'm gathering from the constant excusese for why I got robbed and burned...

You're absolutely right about the thousands of artists who went back to just working a decent job, and feeding thier families... That was far more gratifying than all of the fame, which didn't put any food on the table... That, again, is an untold story of the industry... Those who survived the wickedness of this industry, rarely do I hear these folks complaining... Can't stop a steppa, as my dad used to say...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2250
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know Isaiah,

Back in the '60s, my cousin came back from Vietnam & tried to break in as a songwriter. He used to come home with all kinds of promo 45s & I remember him coming home with Terry Staffords' "Suspicion". Why I remember him with that particular record, I do not know. Anyway, he told me stories about how dirty the industry was, how you sometimes had to sell your soul & your first born simply to get one FINGERTIP in the door. I heard some stories about many artists whom we discuss here & the picture was usually unflattering.

Whedn I later became a DJ, I saw that even on a small scale level, just how dirty the business could be. Even at my extremely modest station, I was totally disgusted with it all & eventually walked away from it. I sat at record pool parties with hopped up distributor, who acted as if they were the goose that laid the golden egg. I watched artists who made public service announcements snort enough coke to finance a 3 family home. Then there were the women who just wanted to say that they knew the DJ, as though I was a big deal, when I wasn't. Oh, sometimes the fringe benefits were lovely & that I'm certainly not complaining about :-)

I saw the old "you scratch my back" game played far too often. I received the phone calls pressuring me to report lousy songs to the radio stations that I gave feedback to. Then, there were the girls that were candy to be passed out for favors, either to artists, distributors or both. There was a large degree of kissing ass & the need to continually watch your back from assorted "friends". For my part, I wasn't down with that & it was time to exit stage left.

On every level, the music industry can really be disgusting!
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1544
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We session musicians received "X amount" person which we played on, but it didnt amount to a hill of beans when compared to the double scale that PIR and most of the other companies paid us.

We saw it as "pocket money" ath the time and as an adjunct, a side dish if you will to our 'real bread and butter'.
The biggest problem was that none of those sessions were logged with the AF of M, which negated any future pension benefits stemming from those sessions, and there were MANY!!
Our pension would have been DOUBLED if those sessions were logged.

Although Salsoul put out many records which were deemed as classics, it would have been nice for the powers that were , to have had CLASS and paid their artists their deserved royalties instead of having people like the great Norman Harris being literally broke at the time of his untimely passing.
Oh, and by the way, they were "kind enough" to pay for his funeral.
They probably dectucted the expense from any purported bogus royalty statement!!!!!
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2252
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eli,

And therein lies the problem. Somehow, I get the feeling that it wasn't standard procedure for the musicians to check those logs back then. Was that the case?? Somehow, I just can't see those musicians checking those logs & I get the sense that it was pretty much on the up & up for the most part. However, those unscrupulous folks probably knew that the musicians trusted them & took advantage of the situation. Either way, a pox on them.

(Message edited by juicefree20 on September 06, 2004)
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Alain Nguyen (soulgems)
3-Pundit
Username: soulgems

Post Number: 57
Registered: 7-2004
Posted From: 172.196.143.165
Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 3:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's an ugly cover for one of my favorite Salsoul LP.anvil band
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mike s (mike_s)
4-Laureate
Username: mike_s

Post Number: 161
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.93.33.7
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 12:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobby...
what a shock to hear abt Salsoul. Seems like Motown have had all the bad press re payments but there were many worse.
When you say that Norman Harris was practically broke when he died, well. I am speechless.
One thing- I ain't buying any more Salsoul material again!
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DavidS91 (davids91)
2-Debutant
Username: davids91

Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 1:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Norman Harris was practically broke? How could this be? Even if he was cheated out of money as a session player, he wrote so many incredible songs, that he had to have a lot of money being generated from ASCAP for his writers royalties. I'm amazed to hear that someone as prolific and talented as Norman Harris wouldn't have been set up financially for many lifetimes considering the amazing amount of work he did during that period. Wow... I am sorry to hear this... The man should have been a billionaire!
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.199.17.78
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 4:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sadly, the people who should have paid the producer/weiters, kept most of the money for themselves, AND the main "lawyer" was playing both ends and was double dealing and was the primary cause of the lack of distribution of whatever little monies were available at the time.
The company you speak of even bought them gifts and deducted the cost from whatever monies they decided not to pay them!!!
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DavidS91 (davids91)
2-Debutant
Username: davids91

Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 198.81.26.46
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This breaks my heart. As a kid I envisioned all of the musicians in Philly producing and playing on each other's albums. I can remember seeing an album produced by Norman Harris, with Bobby Eli and the other musicians playing on it, then seeing an album produced by Bobby Eli with other members of MFSB backing him. Even Thom Bell (perhaps the most accomplished producer of them all) would still do the arranging for Gamble and Huff long after he had made a name for himself as a producer/arranger.

It seemed like a big club where all of the people involved would help each other out and where egos never got in the way of the music. At least that's how it seemed to me when I used to read all of the credits and see everyone playing on everyone else's recordings.

And as I got older I just figured that the main people involved were well compensated for their success. After all, achieving a hit record is no easy task, and when you can achieve hit after hit after hit, you'd think that the money would be flowing as well. To think that one of the absolutely most talented guys in Philly at the time wasn't set up financially for many lifetimes is a real crime.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1631
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.163.57.173
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 4:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh yes, we most definitely helped each other out,and had a blast doing so.
There were never egos involved, just a lot of love.
We were all very good friends and I sure miss the ones who have gone, as we all had such a wonderful experience together making great and timeless music.
It is a shame though, that the powers that were, were for the most part stingy when it came for renumeration.
The musicaians were paid properly because were were needed, otherwise, "faggedaboutit"!! .
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2559
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 7:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to digress here, but I've never heard of this LP or group. Bobby, what I want to know is this: Who is this young lady & where has she been all of my life????

hambone

Seriously, who was Hambone & what did they record? I've never heard of them.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1638
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.53.177
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear ya, Juice!!
Hambone was probably one of Salsoul's tax writeoff "acts".
I never heard of them either.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2574
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 5:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey,

I'd have bought THAT Lp for sure. Hambone indeed!!! Someone needs to send out Leonard Nimoy in search of that cover girl!!!

Come back Hambone, come back........


PLEASE!!!!
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mike s (mike_s)
5-Doyen
Username: mike_s

Post Number: 188
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.93.33.7
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 6:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought the toy animals looked cute too!
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2612
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes they do in that plushy kind of way! Now that you mention it, the one with the dress is rather attractive.
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mike s (mike_s)
5-Doyen
Username: mike_s

Post Number: 194
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.93.33.7
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 6:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Careful Juice!
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Blue Magic/Tammi Terrell (byron_woods)
1-Arriviste
Username: byron_woods

Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eli, How about a tribute album to the music of Norman Harris? That Cat was Bad!
Peace,
Byron Woods
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1699
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.163.59.192
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Byron,
Thats a GREAT thought.

He was my best friend and colleauge, and an al around 'mr nice guy" who would give you the shirt off his back, and of course,sat along side me in the studio for countless sessions, and he sure deserves the accolades and I will most certainly do my best to make it happen.

BTW..
How's your wonderful cd doing?
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Blue Magic/Tammi Terrell (byron_woods)
1-Arriviste
Username: byron_woods

Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eli, It's doing well! Thanks for asking! Please keep me informed about this project! I am Looking forward to some "Live" grooves with VP soon.
Peace,
Byron
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1701
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.163.59.192
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Byron,
Maybe, God willing we could hook up at some point.
I could easily come to Chicago and collaborate on some stuff if you'd like!

(Message edited by phillysoulman on October 03, 2004)
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Blue Magic/Tammi Terrell (byron_woods)
2-Debutant
Username: byron_woods

Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eli, Brother that would be a dream come true! If you get a chance check out my web site:
www.byronwoods.com
Sign on the guest list.
Peace,
Byron Woods

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