| Author | Message | ||
  zaya (isaiah) 3-Pundit Username: isaiah Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Not to offend the many Northern Soul lovers at this website, but many of the obscure records and songs oft discussed at the website, and that I've heard, leave me wondering what is all of the fuss about??? Those that I've heard sound terrible, and leave me no doubt as to why they failed to draw the postive attention so many at SDF seem to believe they should've... Quiet as it is kept, I have heard my opinion echoed by a bunch a folk who post to the site, but never post their thoughts on any of the rare and obscure records and songs discussed here... I guess, like myself, there's a political decorum they've kept up so as not to offend anyone... It's all about personal predelictions in music, truth be told, and I am, here, just expressing mine... But gimme Southern Soul any day, any time, over what has been described here, as Northern Soul... I believe that there's a damned good reason why many of these records DIDN'T succeed initially, and that some are caught up in something which really must be explained to be understood, because I just don't get it... Peace! Isaiah | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 249 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Isaiah makes an interesting and thought provoking point. Many of these records bombed in the U.S. when they were released here. What is it about them that makes them collector's items now? | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 429 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.26.201 |
I have also wondered what are the criteria for a Northern hit. I have had a few myself, but for the life of me I could not figure out the attraction of these records. | ||
Vonnie (vonnie) 4-Laureate Username: vonnie Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Good post zaya, Maybe someone from the UK scene can explain what it is that makes these cuts so appealing. Ralph brings up an interesting point, "these records bombed here in the states". Is there something that we in the states should be more tuned into, are there some nuances that we are not focusing on? | ||
Richard Felstead (felstead2001) 3-Pundit Username: felstead2001 Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 128.40.91.183 |
Yes, it is an interesting subject, and one I don't mind telling you I'm not an expert on, but as far as I'm aware, many of the acts and groups were just not good enough to make it on to the Motown label. Most other labels rejected them to,so in time a second class type of soul evolved. It became known as Northern. That is what I have been led to believe,happened. Over the years though there have been some Northern gems that have crossed over to the Southern Soul scene. One that springs to mind, off the top of my head, is "Love Don't Come No Stronger" - Jeff Perry. Total class. Some I agree are total dross. People pay some stupid money for some of this stuff though, simply because few copies were printed. We all know though, that rare doesn't always make it good. That's my spin on it. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.4 |
As one of the main people involved in researching details of the more obscure records it may surprise some of the newer members of the forum that for the most part I'm equally mystified by why some pretty mediocre records become hugely popular on the northern scene. You may have noticed that I don't very often comment on whether a record's "good" or "bad" because it's all a matter of personal taste. Some stuff I love sold millions, some of it a handful of copies. Some of the stuff I love you might hate and vice versa. My interest from a research point of view is try to uncover the background to hundreds of artists who never got within sniffing distance of having a hit. I might personally think that one, or all, of their records is junk but somebody else is interested enough to ask about them. If I know something about the artist I'll post the information. My feeling is that some of the records benefit from being heard loud in a club where you're surrounded by people of similar musical interests. That experience is different to hearing the same records at home on a decent stereo or on headphones. I don't attend a lot of clubs like that - usually when I do I'll hear a few records I know and like, a few I know and dislike, a few that I've never heard and think are either competent but unexciting and very occasionally something I've never heard and think "I have GOT to have that!" Somebody's got to preserve what little knowledge there is about these artists - no matter what you or I think critically of their work they still made a contribution to the development of the music and deserve at least that much acknowledgment. Critics can argue the respective merits or value of the music itself till the cows come home - in the meantime I've got work to do. Davie | ||
Joe Moorehouse (joe_moorehouse) 1-Arriviste Username: joe_moorehouse Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
I'm not from the UK, but as an avid collector of Northern-Soul-style records, I can at least explain my attraction to the style. There are thousands--perhaps tens of thousands--of records that have been played on the Northern scene over the decades, and I'm sure even the most avid follower of it would agree that lots of them have been lousy. For my part, I have virtually no interest in the big city beat ballad stuff, nor in the early 60s R&B records that have a niche in the scene. But I think tons of the straight-ahead 60s midtempo and uptempo soul is incredible. Since this is a Detroit site, I'll focus on Detroit records as examples: I think the product put out on Ric-Tic, Golden World, Thelma, Solid Hit, Palmer, Impact, etc., can stand with anything recorded anywhere in the 60s. The players are absolute pros (often the Funks and other equally studlike musicians), the arrangements superb (Mike Terry and Dale Warren were awesome!), the production generally excellent, and the writing as good as anybody's. Surely heroes of the Northern scene like the Volumes, Emmanuel Laskey, JJ Barnes, Pat Lewis, Rose Batiste, etc., etc. were outstanding performers. I listen to these records--hundreds of them, just from Detroit circa '64-'68--and hear vibrant, exciting, perfectly executed soul songs that should have been big hits. I think it was a true golden age, and there was more great material recorded than radio had room for (especially with people like Ray Coniff and Ed Ames clogging up Top 40). Also, it was a lot harder for these tiny independent labels to get widespread airplay on a record--no matter how great--than it was for the majors. And even the majors (RCA, MGM, Mercury, etc.) cut loads of great soul that didn't hit. That said, not everything is wonderful. Some records may be famous more for their rarity than their quality, and I've heard plenty of awkward arrangements, muddled production, and singers who couln't hit the notes. I do think that people who collect rare independent music of any kind tend to develop a tolerance over time for primitivism--they start to hear the positive things in records that may just sound incompetent to those who focus more on major label hits. ("Yeah, it sounds like it was recorded in a tin can and the bass player can't keep the groove, but the hook is great and the singer sounds like he's trying to blow the roof off the joint.") Long live the Northern Soul scene. And everything else. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.4 |
I should have added that relatively few of the artists discussed on the forum would strictly speaking be classed as "northern" by card-carrying northern soulies. The Van Dykes ? Helena Ferguson ? Faith, Hope and Charity ? Sometimes, Isaiah, I get the impression that you know a lot about black history and have strong political views but not a lot about the lesser known black artists and that you regard parts of this forum as concentrating on irrelelevant minutiae. You may well be right. You're preaching to the converted here in talking about Curtis Mayfield's influence on black music - I'd be very surprised if anyone doesn't agree that he was a giant -finding out about Curtis' career is a hell of a lot easier than finding out who Helena Ferguson was - that's what the value of this forum is - it's one of the only places on the web that you can mention a name like hers and get some sort of feedback. for what it's worth I'm also a member of other forums that specialise in Southern soul - my musical tastes are wide enough to appreciate what's good in most areas not just Northern. Davie | ||
Mark Speck (mark_speck) 2-Debutant Username: mark_speck Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 199.183.105.128 |
I'm not from the UK, but I AM into Northern and I'd like to tell you what appeals to me about this genre. My interest in Northern (as well as beach music, popcorn, garage rock, et al) is to hear older music that isn't overplayed. I get very tired of the retread oldies on the local oldies stations and try hard to seek out non-hits, regional hits, etc., that are just as appealing as the overplayed crap. I've heard quite a few Northern tunes I don't like, some of which are quite beloved in the UK (and I'd probably get a verbal and/or physical slagging should I dis any of those!). On the same token, I've also heard many great Northern tunes, stuff that just blew me right outta the water. I agree with Davie that the proper place to hear these tunes is in a club atmosphere (and though I haven't been to the UK as yet, I've managed to experience the Northern club scene from visits to Toronto, San Jose, and Detroit, and hope to check out the New York end of things eventually). And since no one has mentioned it yet, I think I should bring this up: the term 'Northern' has nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to do with where the song was recorded! It has to do with the fact that the music is popular in the North of England. Many records recorded in the Southern US have received spins in the North of England (some Joe Simon tunes, "Tearstained Face" by Don Varner, among others). There is a soul scene in the southern portion of England, but their preferences in the music (tempo, etc.) vary somewhat from the northern contingent, as far as I can see. I hope I didn't confuse anyone with the last couple of paragraphs. Best, Mark | ||
Manny (manny) 4-Laureate Username: manny Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.124.11.211 |
Isaiah (or Zeke or Zaya) is here again playing his role. His role as simply Isaiah at 100%! In other words, "provocatiing" in a positive, educated and inteligent way, simply (this is the way I understand it) as a revulsive for reconsider some things we can consider "obvious". Grace to your "provocative" thread, I have search a definition about Northern Soul: Rare Soul, was called after "Northern Soul" by british journalist Dave Godin. But, IMHO, the classifications are sometimes unconfortables. For example, some folks says �I don't like Philly music because is too much sophisticated. I loikes more Southern (or "Deep" )soul�. What is "Wilson Pickett In Philadelphia!? And some Philly Int. acts as Johnny Williams or Anthony White? This is "deep" or "uptown" soul? If we believe in classifications dogmatically, we can missed many treasures of our taste! Also I asked myself, a)-I'm a Northern Soul Fan? b)-I'm join many hours SDF to find Northern Soul information? The response is: a)- I'm a MUSIC fan and is possible that a tune touch my heart and this tune was by a well known artist as Wilson Pickett or a very rarity as Frankie Redmond or Johnny Rootman Henry. b)-Many songs that becomes my particular soundtrack was Philly tunes and I saw here some Philly legends. In addition to this, here we can speak friendly and free of jazz, fussion, Motown, Stax, Philly, Salsa or kachachoff if is considered relevant or interesting in a determinate moment or context. This made so great this site: Southern, Eastern, Northen, Western of Music are well represented by a great "multi-taste" family. Peace & Soul Food | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 250 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Mark, There is a Northern Soul scene in San Jose??? I live an hour away. Sometimes the things I DON"T know amaze me! | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 998 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 56.0.96.18 |
Isaiah! great thread! Bobby E, Richie & Davie, finally, some honest responses, without a hint of indignance. I appreciate the honesty of you fellas, because, I too never quite understood the hype. there are many fine examples of this genre & when it's good, it's excellent. On the other hand...... I've been checking out CDs, sites & from listening to these fellas, I've come to the conclusion that it's similar to a secret society. The fans found the most obscure music, the most obscure artists & adopted them as their own. I never had any responses to Northern Soul because the way that I see it is like this: The fans created this specific genre that reflected their taste & preference of music. As I'm usually for the underdog, I feel that it is almost noble the way that they've embraced so many singers who many of us have never heard. So, although I would rate 95% of N.S. as not worthy of mentioning, the fact is that this is their genre & they have every right to wax poetic about it. After all, it's their music, they embraced it & created their heroes. For them, it's all good. If they want to pay ridiculous prices for obscure music, well, ok! I don't get it but, no problem. I've never been a collector of rarity or obscurity, I'm a collector of good music (IMO at least). This whole rarity race seems to be done just so an individual can say that he has something that the others do not. Somehow, I don't think that they care whether the record is good,just as long as they acquire it. Davie & Joe: I think that those were pretty good posts regarding this. I think that it gives a bit more insight into this phenomenon. | ||
Richard Felstead (felstead2001) 3-Pundit Username: felstead2001 Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 128.40.91.183 |
Some great postings here. I too, have nothing against Northern Soul. It was embraced by people from the north of england, as they could relate to it more than some of the stuff that I was getting into at the time. In the days of the "Wigan Casino" northern soul as I understand it,was discovering oldies that were rare, while most people in the south of the UK, got fixated on what new material that would be being brought back from the states circa mid to late seventies. Thus the two scenes were both headed in very different directions. Northern for the most part,looked back, while the soul scene in the south wanted new and current material. There were occasions when promoters tried to embrace both genres at an "all dayer", but I gather those events were usually disasterous, as the music was so different, and neither crowd cared much for the others taste. I will go out of my way to listen to some dj's that play northern soul, in the hope that I will be converted, but it doesn't usually happen. Having said that I have heard many a track from an artist I can't even remember the name of, that I thought deserved success, as the production and the voice was just right. They just didn't get the breaks, for all the reasons that Joe went into. It is just a matter of taste, and even though I admire the Northern scene for what is, it was just never my taste. | ||
zaya (isaiah) 3-Pundit Username: isaiah Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Davie, a couple of things... Number one, should we reward mediocrity, and place it alonside excellence in it's importance? Yes, I do talk about Curtis Mayfield rather than lesser known, and lesser influential artists because I think HIS contribution to this music is greater than theirs, and worth a legitimate discussion... That doesnt mean I don't think highly of a lesser known, less influential artist, it just means there's more to discuss about an artist who is of great influence... Now, imagine for a moment, where this music would be were it not for the artists of Curtis Mayfield's magnitude and magnanimity??? There wouldn't be much left for a discussion, now, would there? As for my discussions on Black History, as you called it, this music doesn't exist without it... If it does, then you tell me how??? It is all very much intertwined for those who live it, and do not simply go for trips to the museum/record shops to examine it, and leave at closing time(smile!) Davie, once you've examined the history that made this music possible, I guarantee ya, it will make your listening experience that much more powerful... Juice, Soul-Manny, and Richard, I agree with your assessments, it is about personal taste, and to each their own... But this is a discussion board, and if everyone agrees on everything, and no one plays the role of thought provocateur in these discussions, are we really having a discussion, or a popularity contest?(smile!) I want a discussion, whether my ideas are agreed with, or slammed is irrelevant, as long as people feel it is worthy of a discussion... Otherwise, why even have a DISCUSSION BOARD??? Peace! Isaiah | ||
Richard Felstead (felstead2001) 3-Pundit Username: felstead2001 Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 128.40.91.183 |
There is one aspect of this scene I have never admired much. It's the exclusivity of it all, which some interpret as snobbery. I'm not one of those, so there's no need to ball me out, but as a dj on a station, if I play or promote a track either old or new, I want my listeners to be able to get hold of it, if that's what they want to do. With some of this music, there could only be 45 or 50 copies of a particular track in existence. The listeners have no chance of getting hold of what they what. It can be a little elitist. The price of some of these so called "gems" is often ridiculous. I also know that certain dealers will hold on to certain tracks, create a little buzz about them, then put a few "out there" at some of these record fairs. It's all a bit clique for me really. Just a personal opinion. I'm just going to put my tin hat on now, and watch out for flying bullets. :-)) | ||
Joe Moorehouse (joe_moorehouse) 1-Arriviste Username: joe_moorehouse Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
I think it's worth adding here that people associated with the Northern scene have done a tremendous amount of research over the years, and their efforts have been an almost daily benefit to me. They have also done the hard work of rescuing hundreds of hours of old studio tapes and acetates that otherwise would likely have been thrown away or never heard by fans like me. Not everything about the scene is perfect, but NS fans have taken more care with this little corner of American culture than Americans were apt to do for a very long time. Not to say that there weren't always Americans who loved the music, but it was--and still is--mostly Brits who were interviewing the artists, playing the records, and getting the word out. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 253 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.182.209 |
I'm just a fan of music. I like something about thousands of the so-called Northern Soul records. There are also hundreds that I can't stand. I don't think the percentage of what I like out of so-called Northern Soul i=at any given level is any different from soul in general. Even the definition of Nothern Soul has changed over time. The way I understand it, originally their scene in Lancashire and nearby areas of Northern England were playing the more obscure Motown recordings. When they ran out of those, they added all uptempo/heavy beat Motown-clones or style copies. Eventually, they branched out to all "stompers"-fast uptempo beat cuts. They even included songs by white pop artists which also had that beat (such as Margaret Whiting-UNBELIEVABLE!!!). Hypothetically, even if a Lawrence Welk record had that beat, with the remaining instruments being traditional Polka instruments, they played it on the Northern scene (as long as it was hitherto unknown). After being played on the scene for awhile, it would no longer be in demand. They were constantly looking for "new" rare, uptempo soul to play. When they ran out of "undiscovered" stompers to play, they turned to add mid-tempo soul records I think this started in the late '70s-if memory serves. Still, dancebility was the criteria. Personally, I have mixed emotions about the NS scene. Having scads of Brits come to USA and scarf up millions of soul records and bid up the price caused me to end up spending a lot more money on average for filling in my collection. On the other hand, their work also probably saved a lot of vinyl records from being melted down; brought out a lot of information about obscure labels, producers, artists, etc; made a lot of re-issue pressings (albeit many were bootlegs). But a lot more good music is available to people to hear now than would otherwise (including the efforts of Kent, Grapevine and the like). They helped the careers of many soul artists. Many of the big NS collectors also like all or many of the other soul styles. What I don't like was the exclusivity of the "Big Players" bidding up the originals so high, DJs playing them under "cover-up names", and some collectors not letting the sound be heard by others. As a student of soul in general ('60s in particular, and focusing more on Detroit and Chicago labels and artists), a lot of what I like most is considered Northern Soul. So, I'm very glad we also have people who discuss soul from a Northern Soul point of reference, as they have knowledge of a lot about Detroit, Chicago and other '60s soul that I am very inerested in learning about and discussing. The fact that I consider hundreds of so-called NS records as not worth considering, doesn't make me want NS discussions on SD to stop. | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 431 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.236.55.162 |
About two years ago, my old friend and label owner Thaddeus Wales rang me up to tell me that 'some guy from the U.K.' rang him up to ask him if he had any copies of "Nothings to good for my baby by" the Springers which was on the Wales label owner by Thaddeus, and he was willing to pay him $350.00 dollars oer copy if he had any. Thaddeus just happened to have a box of 25 and the bloke sent him the money overnight for all 25 records at $350.00 per record. Thaddeus was overjoyed, as he is now retired and the cash came in handy. I found out shortly thereafter that the records were worth over $4000.00 a piece!!!!! Thaddeus got ripped off royally by this bloke. | ||
Soul-Brother (soulbrother) 4-Laureate Username: soulbrother Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.234.191.47 |
Wow.. that's a lot of words.. to a great thread...and one that has got me on my soap box many times..I have been into soul for 40 years..it's simple..if the voice has soul why label it...BUT.. a lot of Northern Soul was merely a beat..from some white pop singers..even some of the black artists played nowaydays ...are not that soulful.. if it don't move me...it ain't soul!! That doesn't mean to say there are only poor records played.. far from it...but as someone said.. the DJ's trying to play a rare track can mean playing poor songs sometimes. (Soap Box is worn out by now...) Another point made.. surely the name Soulful Detroit does not limit us to the Detroit Music..again.. only a name...we do like putting things into boxes.. Barry | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1003 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
What's up Isaiah!! I agree with what you're saying to me. I feel that this is definitely a good thread here. I would love to hear from some of the diehard N.S. fans. I would like to know exactly what is it about these songs that place them on par with the established hits. Most of them when played side by side, suffer in comparison. So, what I'm wondering is what are the standards that they use when assessing the quality of a song, i.e., what is it that they get about these songs that so many of us don't get. Ike brother, I wish that I had something pertinent to add regarding the whole scene. As I said, I love some of it. Most of it, I simply don't get. I would really love to hear from true N.S. fans. To me, it's still a bit like La Cosa Nostra. | ||
Soul-Brother (soulbrother) 4-Laureate Username: soulbrother Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.234.191.47 |
Eli.. with regards to your point about the records Thaddeus sold..whoever paid that amount later was not in his right mind..pity the poor soul!! They should issue a warning with some 'rarities' ..NORTHERN SOUL CAN BANKRUPT YOU! Barry | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1007 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
I guess that if someone is offering you something that's too good to be true, it would be wise to check your wallet & fingers to see if your rings are still there. | ||
steve w (steve_w) 1-Arriviste Username: steve_w Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.174.207.84 |
Good Thread. People forget that new releases were played on the Northern scene in the mid 70s it wasnt all old stompers Skullsnaps "my hang up is you",produced by George Kerr, Phil Perry belting out "hung up on your love" with the Montclairs Lou Raglands "since you said you would be mine" and the still fabulous "7 day lover" by James Fountain all got played at the time of release when all these got played side by side with traditional 60s at places such as the Ritz all dayers here in Manchester in the 70s it was a great time Juice: all the above records I would compare against the hits of the day its just that with no promotion and airplay they bombed. where else would these records get played back in the day? take the northern anthem "A Little Togetherness" by the Younghearts, what audience or club was Billy Jackson thinking of when he produced that record? He must have gone in the studio to make a smash, bet he didnt think it would be thousands of miles away though, it would be interesting to see a few of the records that people have scratched their heads in bewilderment and muttered what do these brits see in these records. I have a feeling this topic is set to run | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 259 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.198.181 |
Tell all your friends with old non-hit '60s and '70s soul records not to sell them to anyone, before attempting to at least find out what the ballpark range of their going prices are. They could post the names of their records here, and someone (without a vested interest in "stealing" them from their owner) will likely be able to give them a ballpark idea, or direct them to someone else who might be able to help. Even if none of us knows what is currently "Hot" and commanding specific rates, we should be able to tell the owner whether or not he's got an extremely rare record that is likely to be below a hundred, in the low hundreds, high hundreds or in the thousands of Dollars or Pounds; or inform him that what he has is only worth in the tens of Dollars. If no-one here knows specifically about the record, we have access to other people who likely do. I don't think any of us here, want to see a retired artist or producer sell of old keepsakes for one-tenth of what they could bring them. | ||
Ady(soulful.ady) (soulfulady) 1-Arriviste Username: soulfulady Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 158.125.1.114 |
Robb,good point you just made,there will always be someone trying to rip someone off,ok if your collecting for yourself you don't want to pay over the top. Some dealers just want to make a fast Buck or 2,which places a lot of great music out of the reaches of many soul fans. Also record dealing is a living for some. Ady | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1015 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Hey Steve, what's up. I agree with what you're saying regarding those songs. In fact, the Hip Hoppers have caught on to The Skull Snaps big time. Yes, the songs that you mentioned are quality songs. As i said the ones that are excellent are just that. But the ones that aren't excellent..... You know what I mean. I agree with you, I think that this has the makings of a long thread. It's already an excellent one! Robb: I agree with you regarding knowing the worth of ones collection. Fortunately, there is a wealth of information these days. No one should ever be ripped off nowadays. | ||
Tony.C. (tonyc) 2-Debutant Username: tonyc Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.93.33.10 |
Yeah ,once again a good thread Isiah-i,ve enjoyed reading all the comments,from both sides of the pond.But as someone living in the U.K.and having spent 30yrs. listening to,loving and buying this genre of music i would like to air my views.Withoot wishing to upset anyone i would not think to give my opinion on Baseball(World Series?-how many country,s take part?)as i don,t fully understand it,it,s the same as the U.K.Northern Soul scene,granted most ofour playlist comes from U.S.released music-1960-1990 but that is not the Be-All and End-All our all Nighter and rare soul scene is based on travelling round the country meeting new and old friends,hearing sounds you haven,t heard 4 years,reminiscing etc.I meet people i have not seen 4 20yrs,atb 4 a.m.in the morning and there 1,st words are not -How,s your wife?-but more likeley to be -Have you still got-Edward Hamilton-Baby don,t you weep om Mary Jane1005---I KID YOU NOT!!!.About 25 yrs ago i was talking to someone at an all niter(see!we,ve got your spelling creeping in!)and he said Tony how will we ever explain this to the Yanks or anybody?Now at least through sites like S.D.we can try.Here,s another thought while we have spent time in the U.S.since about 1969 looking 4 rare records to keep this scene going we,ve contributed to the U.S.economy(hotels ,taxis,etc!)i now offer any s.d.ers in the u.s.the chance to come here and try the N.S.first hand.Accomodation provided by me-Tony.C.-Mel and then some,and loads of others.I also agree that not all of our so called N.S.classics are that ---some are crap(imho) 1)we were made 4 each other-Terrible Tom. 2)How to make a sad man glad-Capreez 3)Take me home--Donna King i could go on ,but the U.k.northern soul scene is like so many other things -Don,t knock it until You,ve tried it. P.S.longest thread i,ve ever posted ,i hope i,ve not bored u all 2 much.LUV AND STUFF.-Tony.C. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1017 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Nothing boring in your post Tony. Isaiah created this thread with posts like yours in mind. You're speaking about the experience of Northern Soul. As many of us don't understand it, I for one, welcome your experiences regarding it. That's the point, sharing information. If you have more that would futher explain it, please feel free to edify us all. Peace! Juice | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 252 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Absolutely Tony. Juice speaks for me also. For all my time associated with Soulful Detroit, I really don't know all that much about the Northern Soul scene. | ||
Soulaholic (soulaholic) 4-Laureate Username: soulaholic Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.41.40.105 |
Hello All: The simple fact is Music is recognicent to an individual, they can relate to or they do not by the personal experiences they have had in their lives. At this time in Northern England this music was the lifeblood of many individuals. (I believe that the reasons as to why this was so should be told by a person who lived the experience at that time in history). The only comparison I can make is how Rap has been adopted by middle class white youths in America today. Now add into this mix that the northern scene was pushed by a set of individuals that where trying to out perform one and other with rare tunes in their sets. So this factor dictated what type and what tunes where going to be played. To say one artist or tune is better than an other is up to the individual to decide, when an enough individuals agree on a certain artist or tune then it is considered a so called classic and that artist has the ability to effect the over all sound. Yet on the same topic if that artist was never to be heard their will be someone else who would have taken their place. So I guess I am saying that Northern is just a British take on what we in the states considered to be soul. Where it differs is that the scene in the US continued to develop and the law of the jungle applied, if it's good it gets played. Who where the artist that affected the scene, they where determined by their consistency of output with great product (music that many individuals related to) or they had a tune that was so relatable to that many individuals more than the norm took to it and it moved outside of the scene and was recognized by the many as a hit. The UK scene as it appears to have been to me was based on the concept of stay within the time period and find unheard of tunes that fit the parameters of the sound and timeline. With these constraints you can only have so many songs that are going to be considered hits and a lot of filler type of material. So here is where the Northern scene has a limiting factor, as the number of unknown tunes winds down it is harder to find those truly rare gems that fit all the criteria need to be a classic. So the cream of the crap gets played for the sake of having something new to play to the crowd. In essence the decisive factors that made Northern the wonderful thing that it is have now become the same factors that have limited its growth. You cannot go back in time and recreate the magic from back then in the UK and the US looks at it and does not fully relate to it because we where on out our groove at that time and from that point after as soul developed in the 60�s and 70�s over here. So the end result is that it has become a parody of it self when tunes that never would have been played back in the day are the movers and shakers for the scene today. That�s just my take on the whole deal, IMHO. I for one am glad that the Brits loved Soul music to the point that it was the focus of many a young persons being at that time and their life. For Music is a form of expressing individual�s thoughts and feelings and that is something that is just not done enough in this world. Now for the matter of them coming to the states and trying to sneak away with our roots of classic soul as the US had its nose pointed toward the future. That is another matter all together. LOL | ||
Carl Dixon (carl_dixon) 2-Debutant Username: carl_dixon Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 82.44.203.80 |
It was the early seventies for me. The pirate radio stations had been closed down, local radio was selling Mrs. Bloggs Elna sewing machine to anybody that wanted it for a fiver. The national station(s) were playing Gary Glitter, Barry Blue, Status Quo, Bay City Rollers and the like. The discos had an edge and played dance music. Certain songs filled the floor and others emptied it. It's for you/Three dog night - filled the dance floor, as did, Long train running/The Doobie Brothers, The Locomotion/Little Eva and One minute every hour/John Miles. But something else happened. The DJ's wanted to keep us on the floor and experimented. They found that a certain beat and orchestration kept our attention. Each time, for example Ooh! Pretty lady/Al Kent was played, more people danced, until it was an anthem. These records tended to be American and on lovely colored unusual labels. On further investigation there was a trend with writers, producers and groups. The clubs reputation was now based on which DJ's played which record. Go to 'Baileys' and hear 'Stay close to me/5 Stairsteps' or go to Annabellas and hear 'At the top of the stairs/The Formations�. The clubs had different nuances or �terroir�. The size of the dance floor at Baileys was massive. Bags of room to dance and forget about purchase invoices, RORO trailers travelling to Europe by North Sea Ferries and profit sharing. The records became collectable and were unavailable because they had never been released here or had been deleted by the UK record company, hence the quest to find them. Remember, no CD�s, Internet, MP3�s. In searching, I found coloured labels that matched records I had heard and I took a gamble and bought them hoping they were as good. Many of the times, they were. Other occasions they were poor, but had a little spark of magic and were so different to songs I heard on the radio. I started to buy records from �Soulscene� in Telford. �5 for 100 7� vinyl soul records. Things like �The love of my woman/Darrell Banks� were in there. That�s interesting; the back beats sound like Motown. I wondered whether it could have been the same musicians! The DJ�s played a massive part in all this even getting records on national release and in the charts because of their efforts in clubs dotted around the north of the country. These days there are experts still searching the archives for the missing hidden gems that will be released, with good notes, on CD in the future. This is from my perspective and why I still like to hear the oldies and indeed anything else that has that sparkle. Quite frankly, if it was written, produced and recorded today, it would be a bonus, because it would mean somebody somewhere is appreciating the skills and talents of those involved in the 60/70�s and carrying on that style of music. Indeed, there is someone on the forum who is in his early twenties, a Detroiter and has been contemplating such a venture. He has the same ambitions as others 40 years before him. I hope to be around to celebrate his success and endevours. | ||
Dennis Coffey (dennis_coffey) 2-Debutant Username: dennis_coffey Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Hello everyone. The record buying public uses subjective opinion to make record buying choices. There are many great records that didn't strike the public fancy and many great records that did. Don't overlook the fact that records are an expression of the people who created them not of the people who buy them. I have played on many northern soul records who were not hits here in the states but were well received in the UK. Everyone involved in making these records were serious about the music they were making at the time. The fact that these records did not make it over here does not change the fact that they made it in Europe and the UK. We don't have to get it. We buy the records we like and they buy records they like. We also buy many of the same records and have a lot of the same musical tastes. Those of us who make records also appreciate people who buy our records where ever they may be. | ||
Destruction (destruction) 3-Pundit Username: destruction Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 199.173.225.2 |
Time for a little comic relief. Pre-1989, I rarely saw the term, Northern Soul in my music readings. Once I got on the internet, I nealy peed me pants discovering all the wondrous sites and newsgroups and irc chat groups devoted to music. When the net noir group broke on AOL, 75% of the discussions revolved around music, particularly soul music. Anyways, I began seeing titles on the net associated with Northern Soul. A lot of those records, I recognized neither the artist, nor the song. But, then I started recognizing a few artists, the Manhattens, Dyke and the Blazers, Chuck Jackson. Then a few titles like Sally Go Round the Roses. So I put 2 and 2 together and came up with my own definition. Northern Soul must me Soul music that was non Motown and Stax that was popular or originated in the Northern and Eastern parts of the U.S. like Chicago or Today records in N.Y. That lasted a few months, then I started seeing artist like Wilson Pickett and the Contours on some N.S. playlists. So I decided to find out exactly what it was. As an aside, I was keenly aware of American Jazz artists being immensely popular in places like France and Japan, but until the net, I had no idea of Soul music's huge, devout, and extremely knowledgeable international audience. I must admit that it still stuns me at times. | ||
Weldon A. Mc Dougal III (weldon) 4-Laureate Username: weldon Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.80.162.3 |
Amen, Dennis, Weldon A. Mc Dougal III | ||
Charise (mistrivia1) 4-Laureate Username: mistrivia1 Post Number: 76 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 198.81.26.46 |
Dennis Coffey!!!! That's basically what it boils down to! Never thought I'd get the chance to say it but I will now, I love your music!!!!!  | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1023 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Hey Ree Ree! How ya been? | ||
motownboy (motownboy) 2-Debutant Username: motownboy Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.124.69.113 |
The essence of "Northern Soul" is NOT geographical or determined by a song's record label (there are many Motown & Stax songs considered "Northern Soul" classics). "Northern Soul" is (generally speaking) uptempo "FEEL GOOD" music. The "ideal" Northern Soul song would have an infectious beat/rhythm with a strong melody and orchestration (not to mention strong vocals) that makes one want to get up and dance\ or at least tap their feet. I think the attraction to "Northern Soul" is that it is fun and not "jaded" in the way most R&B/Soul music has been since the mid 1980s. There is a lot of great "NS" music as well as a lot of not-so-great stuff. I think the wish to find more great rarities has unearthed a lot of medicore tracks......but the good ones are REALLY GOOD!!! I guess what I find sad about it is that, as someone who is American and grew up here in the US, we (as an American culture) don't appreciate and respect our Soul/R&B heritage as much as other countries like the UK do..... | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 134 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
It is interesting that those who say they don't like most of what they have heard have failed to name names (records). Let's have the names of the records which you don't get and some of the ones that you do. Thousands upon thousands of excellent records have been played and enjoyed on the NS scene. There has been dross but realistically what do you expect over a period of 35 years! The Northern Soul scene has been a wonderful phenomenon. From one who was there David | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
Reference Thaddeus being ripped off. His record was worth $4,000 when there were perhaps two copies around. Once more appear, the price falls. With "27" now on the market, $4,000 per copy shrinks dramatically. We also need to remember that what the guy in the street gets for his records can never match what a trader gets. | ||
Soulman (soulman) 1-Arriviste Username: soulman Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.79.74.121 |
Why do people try to complicate matters over something a lot of them dont understand The Northern Scene is about going out and having a GOOD time if not GREAT time with people who have a similar taste in music in most cases in a safe environment and listening to as the late Great Edwin Starr used to say feel good music.Ts not just about the music the social side is also very important,its a melting pot if all classes of live and i am PROUD and Glad TO BE A PART OF A very SPECIAL sCENE,yOU ARE A LONG TIME DEAD GO OUT AND Enjoy it.Dave Leedham. | ||
Tony.C. (tonyc) 2-Debutant Username: tonyc Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.93.33.10 |
HEAR!HEAR!Dave,just as i said earlier on in this thread,the N.S.SCENE is an experience,a feeling,the music is the main part of it but there is and always has been so much more. | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 136 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
Here's 4 vocals by Curtis Mayfield played on the Northern Soul scene. "You've been cheatin'" "Can't Satisfy" "You ought to be in heaven" "Little young lover" If it was recorded in the sixties and you could dance to it then that was the original "concept". Most of the music was by Black artists. As time moved on the scene had to keep looking for more of that genre. That's when the rarity kicked in. JF20 declares that "95% of NS is not worth mentioning". If he knows what he is talking about, this means that 95% of all recorded dance music in the sixties was crap. | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
Our British friends will remember the early seventies debacle between Dave Godin and Tony Cummings. Dave embraced the scene, visited it, wrote about it, loved it. Tony who wrote for Record Mirror, was editor of Black Music magazine, wrote a book on Philadelphia etc etc; regularly tried to put down the Northern phenomenon even though he'd never seen it. Once he did his views changed completely and you can find his revelations on the "Strange world of Northen Soul" dvd. David | ||
douglasm (douglasm) 4-Laureate Username: douglasm Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.113.12.67 |
Good thread, and very interesting, especially to someone (me) who didn't understand the scene. BUT... ....over the past couple weeks, while I was packing up the record collection for a move, and in looking over the obscure stuff I have that nobody else either wants or remembers, I'm glad a Northern Soul scene is out there, if only to bring to the light of day music that has been hidden by the gloom of night. I don't like a lot of the NS music I've heard talked about, but then, a lot of people don't like the stuff I've lugged about for years, saying this after carefully unpacking my Dorians single on GM. The fact that I don't like a certain type of music doesn't matter. Other people DO, and more power to them. As an aside, to me the discussion of music I have no or limited knoledge about is what helps keep SD the interesting site it is..... doug | ||
Soulman (soulman) 1-Arriviste Username: soulman Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.79.34.119 |
David Meilke and Tony C well said you know what you are talking about because you are part of the scene not on the outside looking in,as for 95 percent not being worthy what a joke of a comment,34 years of been on this GREAT scene and i have heard nothing like that amount of so called Northern Soul records,criticsm is accepted if right IF.Look what David has wrote about the Cyrtis Mayfield tracks and try to criticize them.ONE MANS MEAT IS ANOTHER mANS POISON.dAVE lEEDHAM | ||
DyvaNaye (westside314) 6-Zenith Username: westside314 Post Number: 428 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 209.212.74.212 |
No arguement on what 'Blue Eyed Soul' is and how terrible some that music is? There will be good artists, bad artists and in between artist in soul music, it is up to the discrimnating ear and taste buds to know what they like. It does appear that N-S music had 'bombed' over here, but sometines the music was good and the artist was not given a fair 'shake'...then it did fabulous over seas. Now they are collectors items and the shame sometimes falls back on us for failing to support an artist at times... Of course, thisis not the final answer on this, but get on some of the 'Blue Eyed Soul' that was not exactly pleasing to the ear...B-E-S artist did not have the struggle of having to go over seas to 'make it'...they made out here and was accepted because the could put the 'stank' twist on a song to make them sound 'afrocentric' or 'rhythmic' and was accepted as 'equals' in the world of 'American' soul. etc...etc...etc... Peace, DyvaNaye | ||
motownboy (motownboy) 2-Debutant Username: motownboy Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.124.69.112 |
I guess from some of the postings on this thread, it must be hard for some to understand that U.S. Soul/R&B from the 1960s & 70s which was overlooked and forgotten could be embraced and appreciated by another culture and country. Here is something quite interesting, KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) has been using Northern Soul classics in their latest TV commercial campaign in the UK.......These are some of the songs thay have used: FRANK WILSON - DO I LOVE YOU JACKIE WILSON - THE WHO WHO SONG MARLENA SHAW - CALIFORNIA SOUL LAURA GREENE - MOONLIGHT MUSIC AND YOU LITTLE MILTON - MORE AND MORE MAJESTICS - FUNKY CHICK BOBBY GARRETT - I CAN'T GET AWAY FLIRTATIONS - NOTHING BUT A HEARTACHE YOU CAN GO TO THE LINK BELOW AND SEE THE ACTUAL COMMERCIALS!!! Just scroll down a bit (fourth of fifth ad) to the KFC ads and click on the still picture from the video in the right-hand column..... You will be asked to pick which "player" (QuicK-time, Windows Media or RealPlayer) you wish to use. Here is the link: http://www.whatsthatcalled.co. uk/html/advert_id.php?show=19 The JAckie Wilson, Marlena Shaw, Little Milton, Laura Greene, Flirtataions commercials do work, the Frank Wilson doesn't (DARN!) | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 77 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.4 |
Hi Isaiah, "Number one, should we reward mediocrity, and place it alonside excellence in it's importance?" - I don't think I said that we should. We're talking about artists who for the most part were not rewarded financially or critically. If they gain some sort of popularity on the Northern or hard core collector scene it's very rarely of any great financial value to them. My point is that their existence and as far as can be traced, their history, should be recorded. It's up to the listener whether they're good or not. "Yes, I do talk about Curtis Mayfield rather than lesser known, and lesser influential artists because I think HIS contribution to this music is greater than theirs, and worth a legitimate discussion... That doesnt mean I don't think highly of a lesser known, less influential artist, it just means there's more to discuss about an artist who is of great influence... Now, imagine for a moment, where this music would be were it not for the artists of Curtis Mayfield's magnitude and magnanimity??? There wouldn't be much left for a discussion, now, would there? " I'm not sure there's going to be much of a "discussion" about Curtis. Some of Curtis' titles will be mentioned - some people will mention another that they think is an under-rated gem. Is anybody going to say that he think he's over-rated and undeserving of his acclaim ? I doubt it. "As for my discussions on Black History, as you called it, this music doesn't exist without it... If it does, then you tell me how???" How do you manage to infer that I think that black music has nothing to do with the social and political history of black people ? That is so obvious it surely doesn't need to be spelled out. I didn't realise you'd find the term "Black History" objectionable - in your posts about a possible Scottish connection to gospel music you mentioned a few books which are, in all probablility, only known to those deeply interested in the subject - I don't know what other term I could've used. "It is all very much intertwined for those who live it, and do not simply go for trips to the museum/record shops to examine it, and leave at closing time(smile!) Davie, once you've examined the history that made this music possible, I guarantee ya, it will make your listening experience that much more powerful... I regard those remarks as condescending - you have no idea how much history I've read in general or in the more specific area of the history of black people in the US. I've probably read more than you think - I am interested in more than matrix numbers. You also imply that only "those who live it" which I take to mean US citizens of African origin are the only people qualified to understand, appreciate or comment on black music. The music this site was set up to cover is almost without exception by black performers but to ignore the influence of the overall US culture and the direct participation of many white people as writers, producers or musicians seems to me to be willful blindness to the fact that everybody in the US. and to a lesser degree the rest of the world, has common influences from the mass culture of the TV age. Are you seriously trying to argue that the Black Culture, that you are you rightly proud of, existed in isolation. If it was true I'd probably agree with you but it's not. Davie | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 78 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.4 |
Hi Isaiah, "Number one, should we reward mediocrity, and place it alonside excellence in it's importance?" - I don't think I said that we should. We're talking about artists who for the most part were not rewarded financially or critically. If they gain some sort of popularity on the Northern or hard core collector scene it's very rarely of any great financial value to them. My point is that their existence and as far as can be traced, their history, should be recorded. It's up to the listener whether they're good or not. "Yes, I do talk about Curtis Mayfield rather than lesser known, and lesser influential artists because I think HIS contribution to this music is greater than theirs, and worth a legitimate discussion... That doesnt mean I don't think highly of a lesser known, less influential artist, it just means there's more to discuss about an artist who is of great influence... Now, imagine for a moment, where this music would be were it not for the artists of Curtis Mayfield's magnitude and magnanimity??? There wouldn't be much left for a discussion, now, would there? " I'm not sure there's going to be much of a "discussion" about Curtis. Some of Curtis' titles will be mentioned - some people will mention another that they think is an under-rated gem. Is anybody going to say that he think he's over-rated and undeserving of his acclaim ? I doubt it. "As for my discussions on Black History, as you called it, this music doesn't exist without it... If it does, then you tell me how???" How do you manage to infer that I think that black music has nothing to do with the social and political history of black people ? That is so obvious it surely doesn't need to be spelled out. I didn't realise you'd find the term "Black History" objectionable - in your posts about a possible Scottish connection to gospel music you mentioned a few books which are, in all probablility, only known to those deeply interested in the subject - I don't know what other term I could've used. "It is all very much intertwined for those who live it, and do not simply go for trips to the museum/record shops to examine it, and leave at closing time(smile!) Davie, once you've examined the history that made this music possible, I guarantee ya, it will make your listening experience that much more powerful... I regard those remarks as condescending - you have no idea how much history I've read in general or in the more specific area of the history of black people in the US. I've probably read more than you think - I am interested in more than matrix numbers. You also imply that only "those who live it" which I take to mean US citizens of African origin are the only people qualified to understand, appreciate or comment on black music. The music this site was set up to cover is almost without exception by black performers but to ignore the influence of the overall US culture and the direct participation of many white people as writers, producers or musicians seems to me to be willful blindness to the fact that everybody in the US. and to a lesser degree the rest of the world, has common influences from the mass culture of the TV age. Are you seriously trying to argue that the Black Culture, that you are you rightly proud of, existed in isolation. If it was true I'd probably agree with you but it's not. Davie | ||
FRANCIS T (francis_t) 1-Arriviste Username: francis_t Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.92.67.209 |
Some intersting postings.The comments about the $4000 Springers record was correct,prices reflect rarity and the price would have no doubt have fallen.And, of course with a price on offer of $350 more could have turned up, maybe in a band members garage or somewhere.- and a subsequent price drop for the "rip off" dealer who chanced his cash on the first deal. Its good to read a thread that doesn,t put down the northern soul scene too much.Like somebody else has said what makes a record is sometimes more than the music itself.It may be the influence of the deejay who first played it,where it was played,whether the artists has a history,or some case is so obscure to it gets noticed,or maybe the label its on.U.S. dealers often describe records as northern just because of the label,Golden World,Ric Tic,etc. At the end of the day classic northern sounds stand out above the dross and remain classics. Kev Roberts TOP 500 NORTHERN SOUL book,does a reasonably good job in pointing out the best stuff. On balance I think the northern soul movement must have been of more benefit to the artists and label owners ,than of detrement to it.With many major labels releasing CDs somebody must be earning something!Not to mention the artists given a chance to visit Europe.I realise the original point related to what northern soul is ,but I thought an overview would be of interest Regards FRANCIS T | ||
zaya (isaiah) 3-Pundit Username: isaiah Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 134.74.44.245 |
Davie, perhaps, on another thread I will engage the inferences you made in your posts, but I'd prefer to keep this thread focused on it's subject, which is Northern Soul... Remember, I sadi zippo about "Black History" - which is World History - until you threw that jab at me...(smile!) Being a counter-puncher, myself, I could not resist the opportunity to jab back... I am glad others on this thread have not veered off into something else, and have given me some food for thought - particularly, Mr. Carl Dixon and Tony C.... I appreciate their comments, as well as, yours Davie - believe it or not(smile!) Peace! Isaiah | ||
Carl Dixon (carl_dixon) 2-Debutant Username: carl_dixon Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 82.44.203.80 |
I also notice that many Northern Soulers stay very loyal to the music. Now collecting CD's to maybe replace their worn out vinyl, visiting special weekends where performers appear from the States (The Velvelettes in October - I've got my tickets!!)and going to clubs to support their interests. I met Sid Barnes here in London and asked him where he got the influence for ' I hurt on the other side' - he told me it was a bad time for him, and no doubt that record sums up his feelings at the time. Motownboy - the url for the commercials is great. I rang the add ageny and thanked them for a great campaign. They have been on SoulfulDetroit and read a few posts for definate, because I did it on the phone with them! | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 276 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 204.108.65.10 |
Isn't it amazing, that an extremely rare record that was pulled back by Berry Gordy, because he wanted Frank Wilson to concentrate solely on producing (and not a singing career), was heard by literally millions of people in The UK (likely mostly non-soul fans)!!!! A record meant to NOT be heard by the public, was heard by Millions on a KFC commercial!!! (Message edited by Robb_K on May 24, 2004) | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1031 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Good afternoon all! Now, I don't see what the problem is. I actually was learning something here. My comments overall were stating my overall ignorance of the scene & I was sincerely listening to those who have first hand knowledge & understanding of it. Actually, I thought that everyone was disseminating some very good knowledge regarding the phenomenon & I was enjoying their perspective. Now, I didn't get into calling out any specific artists or songs, as that would only turn folks defensive. Once folks start becoming defensive, there is no exchange of knowledge. It becomes a back & forth thing with folks defending their position, as opposed to informing the rest of us about the appeal of the music. That is why I refrained from naming names. I'm not interested in bashing certain songs, I'm trying to understand the whole scene, as well as the music. No David, because I said that 95% of N.S. wasn't worth mentioning, in no way implied that 95% of ALL 60s music isn't worth mentioning. The music co-opted by Northern Soul is not a reflection of popular Soul, Pop, Rock of the 60s. At least, not here in America. Northern Soul is Northern Soul. I wouldn't dare compare Northern Soul to the sounds of Stax, Atlantic, Chess, VeeJay, James Brown, etc. The songs that Northern Soul went crazy over were not close to being 95% of the music that sold, or was played then...not here in the U.S. at least. That is why I asked to hear from those who were there & understood the phenomenon. If you look at the list of the top 500 N.S. songs, are they reflective of 95% of the music that charted or received airplay in the U.S.? To my knowledge, it was not & from what I've read on other websites regarding N.S., it was this very obscurity that fueled the scene, hence the "cover up" phenomenon.. i.e. the Do I Love You "cover up" (Otis Clark, Eddie Foster, Frank Wilson), etc. I don't believe that 95% of any popular music could be regarded as not worth mentioning. To give Northern Soul the same weight as the Popular R&B/Soul from the labels & artists that I mentioned is ludicrous. Maybe overseas that was the case, here in America...NO WAY. I still stand by my opinion that 95% of it wasn't worth mentioning...for ME. That's MY personal taste & if I chose to listen to more, I could easily raise that to 96-97%. For anyone to tell me that my personal taste is a joke... is a joke itself. Soulman, you need to check yourself on that one. Just because the scene is great, doesn't mean the music is. Soulman: You also made a remark regarding how some people try to complicate matters over things that they don't understand. Please re-read that remark & tell me how it sounds. Do you realize how that sounds to us "outsiders"? We're trying to reach out & understand YOUR scene & you're knocking us for doing so. You're actually discouraging us from understanding your scene. That sounds pretty elitist to my ears, not to mention exclusionary. I don't think that's fair at all. David & Soulman: You chose to focus on my 95% remark & not my other remarks. I readily acknowledged that this was a scene created overseas, from an overseas sensibility. I even gave credit for the fact that they embraced these artists, who may have never gotten a moment in the spotlight. You both chose to overlook the positive things that I stated, to focus in on an arbitrary number that I threw out. A number that is not fact, but simply my opinion. Doesn't sound quite fair to me fellas. I didn't knock specific songs & as I realize that it's a matter of taste, I wasn't trying to rain on anyones parade. But Soulman, as you have chosen to direct your remarks to me, I CAN tell you what I REALLY think. Believe me, it would make my 95% remark look like childs' play. That is exactly what I was trying to avoid. I was interested in hearing about the overall scene, not flaming the genre. But, if that's what is preferred, as opposed to an educational discourse, well...ok. I have no problem with that either. I just preferred to learn, rather than to get into a bashfest. I was learning a lot until you chose to focus on the 95% remark. Nah, before I do that, let me ask you this... are you interested in informing me & others about the scene & perhaps showing me the error of my ways. OR... would you prefer for me to sit here & dissect each song, measure by measure & point out why I don't care for them? Think about that & let me know. I thought that the idea was to educate those of us who don't know & understand. If I'm wrong, show me where I'm wrong. However, if folks really want me to name songs, I will accomodate you. I don't see what it will accomplish , but, if you insist, I'll do so. (Message edited by Juicefree20 on May 24, 2004) (Message edited by Juicefree20 on May 24, 2004) | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 282 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 204.108.65.10 |
Juice: The very definition of Northern Soul (that it's popular songs can't have been the most popular hit songs played on the radio, keep most of them from being in your 95% of the most popular soul songs. Northern Soul DJs and dancers at clubs DIDN'T form a conspiracy to choose and like the worst of soul records. They picked the songs best suited to fast and mid-tempo dancing. The NS hits played most run the gammut of all fast and mid-tempo soul records that were not hits in UK in their initial release. Of cource, the ballads and slowest mid-tempos (especially the latter when they didn't have accentuated beats), can't be NS by definition. But the NS hits range from relatively little-known songs by well-known artists, to unknown songs by little-known artists on unknown or little-known labels. I like a lot of NS songs, am lukewarm about many others, and dislike some. I like soul in general, and I don't think NS is the bottom of the soul barrel. I consider it a reasonably representative cross-section of the fast and mid-tempo soul songs from 1965-1972 (I can't speak for the NS songs after 1972, as I don't know most soul of any kind from after 1972). The songs by Roy Hamilton, Major Lance, April Stevens, The Andantes, Cissy Houston, Gene Chandler, and other popular artists who had NS "hit" were great singers. Their songs that became NS hits were rarer, or just had not been played in UK during their initial release. They were not of significantly lower quality than those artists' hit songs. All the popular Motown artists who had previously unreleased songs debuted on the Northern scene, were quality singers. The desireability of those songs is that they were never heard before. Take a look at the list of songs by artist that I placed on the "Northern Soul Artist" thread. It provides a decent cross section of NS songs. It will give you some idea. | ||
zaya (isaiah) 3-Pundit Username: isaiah Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Juice and RobbK, thank you both for the excellent sum-ups on the Northern Soul scene... I can't say I will ever like the music on the scene, but I will understand why folks are into the scene, and love it... As Dennis Coffey says, it is not for me to "get it", but for those who are into the scene, and have "gotten it..." I think that was an instructive statement for all of us at this board who rail against the HipHop/Neo Soul scene... It aint for none of us who revile it to "get it."(smile!) Peace! Isaiah | ||
Flynny (anoraks_corner) 3-Pundit Username: anoraks_corner Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 213.122.0.242 |
Into the pot... Don't know if y'all aware, but the Northern Soul scene is/has always consisted of 90%+ white folk, with but a few black faces in the UK crowd. First and foremost, this is DEFINIATELY not down to racial prejudice, I can assure you...and note the average NS event's playlist consists of probably 85%+ black artist recordings. Comparisons have been made in the past between the ghettos/folk within the US where these kinda recordings emanated from, and the working-towns/folk in the UK where the scene did/does flourish, in order to try and explain it's popularity...maybe there's some kind of fellowship, who knows?! Lyrical content is often based around being in love, heartbreak, I'm gonna make it someday kinda topics, which is relevant to all walks of life, so don't think a finger can be pointed in that direction as the definitive common link. No hidden agenda here, but am curious as to whether you US guys'n'gals were aware of the make up of the NS crowd and it's distinct lack of black faces...strange don't you think? | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1037 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Hi Flynny, I understand your point & I definitely have noticed the make-up. With the racial make-up a given, I was never offended by it. As I said, it was a happening that was started by those who loved that style of music. As such, I never felt a need to be angry about it. Honestly, I think that it's great. I'm all for seeing unsung artists getting some exposure & a shot at the spotlight. Anything that gives them that opportunity is great in my opinion. I think that it's great that they have love for Soul music. I can't be angry about that. I think it's absolutely wonderful that they are as passionate about the music & the artists as they are. As I said, they chose the style of music, songs & artists to pay homage to. That is why I never knocked specific songs & artists. It is their music & as such, I don't feel that it is my right to lob verbal missiles at what they've created. Whether I understand it or not, it's not my goal to shoot anything down. It's my goal to understand the scene. I say may they keep on keeping on! I would only add that I wish that some wouldn't be so defensive & that they'd take the time to enlighten the uninitiated. I see nothing wrong with a request such as that. Do you??? | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 286 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.195.48 |
One other thing that should be considered here is that the NS fans don't necessarily like the SOUND of the super rare records better than that of the most "danceable", or "fun to dance to" big hit songs. They'd just get a bigger kick out of hearing and dancing to these rare sides much more than hearing and dancing to songs they've heard already hundreds or thousands of times. It doesn't mean they only like those rare "stompers" both well made and poorly made. I'd bet that MOST NS fans, if they were honest with themselves, would admit that they like the big hit soul records that Americans think of as having high quality singing and production values. I doubt if any of them would dislike "This Old Heart Of Mine" by The Isleys, or "Every Little Bit Hurts", or "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things" or even "Rainbow" by Gene Chandler. It's just a matter of what is interesting to hear because one hasn't heard it before, or only a few time, and how one can enjoy dancing to it. After all, they way I understand it is that the scene started by playing mainly Motown hits. They wanted something new, so then went after the rare Motowns that hadn't been played in UK. THEN, they went after uncommon soul that sounded something like Motown. THEN, they went after rarer soul that had a good dance beat. As the years passed, and there were less and less "new" old records to find, they moved to a wider number of different beat styles, and some lesser quality cuts, if the beat was right, and also got to hear previously unreleased cuts, as the NS suppliers made more contact with original label owners. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1040 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
I hear that Robb. I also read about Ian Levine & his love of N.S. I'd like to know why some artists have such bad things to say about him. There are a few artists who will nearly rip your head off at the mere mention of his name. Does anyone have any thoughts on this??? | ||
Soul-Brother (soulbrother) 4-Laureate Username: soulbrother Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.234.174.193 |
Juice, I was on tour in England with Phillip Mitchell, we got to hear of a VCR set Levine had planned about Northern Soul and was gonna release...some artists lyp-syncing, DJ's and others remembering the old days. Phillip had been filmed by the Mississippi with a steamboat background..one of the best clips in the film. He had never been paid for this and confronted Levine at the show he attended.Levine gave some weak excuses and called me after Phillip left as there had been talk about a lawsuit.Phillip and I agreed that we would let it go as I had heard that Levine has stopped the project. Six months later.. I heared that a DVD set wass on the market.Still no sign of payment from Mr.Levine!! Barry | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 142 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
JF20 You continue to miss the point. "No David, because I said that 95% of N.S. wasn't worth mentioning, in no way implied that 95% of ALL 60s music isn't worth mentioning. The music co-opted by Northern Soul is not a reflection of popular Soul, Pop, Rock of the 60s. At least, not here in America. Northern Soul is Northern Soul. I wouldn't dare compare Northern Soul to the sounds of Stax, Atlantic, Chess, VeeJay, James Brown, etc. The songs that Northern Soul went crazy over were not close to being 95% of the music that sold, or was played then...not here in the U.S. at least. That is why I asked to hear from those who were there & understood the phenomenon." I am telling you that most of the danceable music recorded by Black (and some White artists) during the sixties has been played on the Northern Soul scene. This includes many dance records from all the labels you mention above. Even James Brown and "There was a time". Many of the tunes played on the scene were hits, minor hits, local hits in the USA. They were rare to us mortals in the 60's however as the United States seemed like a million miles away. The scene has been alive for over 35 years. During that time the rarity came into the equation in a big way. This was fuelled by the need to keep things fresh, the excitement of finding someone else's work (eg Mike Terry), the pleasure of hearing sounds that you couldn't hear on the radio, the creation of the jigsaw and many other things including the camaraderie and atmosphere. I regard most of what has been played in the quality venues as excellent. I would also like to say that many of the artists have visited these shore and received some sort of remuneration and also a huge amount of kudos. An example can be found on Dave Flynn's site. http://www.capitolsoulclub.hom estead.com/SidneyBarnes.html Edwin Starr even moved to the UK as a result of the NS scene and made a damn good living from it. Finally I can understand Dave Leedham's frustrations at some of the above postings becuase they are so way off the mark. And remember too that hundreds of thousands of people can't all enjoy listening to rubbish. David (who loves all forms of 60's Soul Music and who has impeccable taste ) | ||
Soul-Brother (soulbrother) 4-Laureate Username: soulbrother Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.234.174.193 |
After my last show(see thread-Vintage Soul Radio Show #140) a listener called...he was once a 100% Northern Soul fan.. but has been converted to 50-50 now..likes some of the deeper stuff as well. His comment about the show.. 'Barry.. if you'd played the first 6 tracks at a Northern Soul event you would have filled the floor' Now.. I just play what I think is real soul.. but evidently I've turned into a Northern Soul DJ... lol... Barry | ||
Soulman (soulman) 1-Arriviste Username: soulman Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.79.197.212 |
Juicefree im not knocking anyone for trying to understand the scene but to start your thread off by saying 95 per cent of the music is not worth mentioning doesnt sound like anyone who is too interested in the scene yo begin with,and yes some of the music is not worth writing home about.Please do let us know what you realy do think and by the way my remarks where to you as it was you who made the 95 per cent remark.Im not the best in the world at putting pen to paper i would rather face people and give them my opinion i have tried here and i dont mean to upset anyone but at the end of the day its anout going out and having a good time,you dont always have to understand it.Look at my web site www.daveleedham.topcities.com and tell me if you see one miserable face on any of the photos its people ENJOYING THEMSELVES on a very special scene.And by the way Juicefree if you ever wish to come to the UK look me up and i will show what the scene is about .having a good night out IN MY OPINION,dAVE lEEDHAM. | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 147 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
You've got it Barry. Northern Soul is basically sixties Soul Music that you can dance to :- Some of which were hits in the USA.... "Stop her on sight" "The Duck" "Monkey Time" "Cool Jerk" The rarities followed and were tried and tested until virtually everything had been explored. But what do you do when you run out of "new" 45's. You hit for master tapes/acetates. Then you return to those which weren't played much at the time of their discovery. The Northern Soul scene has virtually catalogued a significant and important part of African American music history. The Modern Soul scene is doing the same thing. It is also based in England and features mainly 70's recordings. We deserve better than what is thrown at us on this thread. David (who was there ) | ||
motownboy (motownboy) 2-Debutant Username: motownboy Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.170.49.72 |
As I said way up back in this thread: From the postings here, it must be hard for some American music fans to understand that U.S. Soul/R&B from the 1960s & 70s which was overlooked and forgotten could be embraced and appreciated by another culture and country. Unfortunately, we as Americans have a general tendency to "forget" our roots and heritage only to embrace the "latest trends", and then quickly discard those as well....... | ||
roger (roger) 4-Laureate Username: roger Post Number: 74 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.35.87.17 |
Hello everyone. Here is my take on all of this. If it weren't for the NS scene I would never have become aware of such wonderful records as "Please Let Me In" by JJ BARNES, "Do I Love You" by FRANK WILSON, "Come See Whats Left of Me" by BOBBY HUTTON or "If You Ask Me" by JERRY WILLIAMS. I could list a lot more of course, but those are ones that immediately come to mind. I would never describe myself as being specifically a NS fan, but there is enough there musically to interest me and I have spent a few ( although in retrospect not nearly enough ) enjoyable nights at NS events. If I'm having a quiet day at home playing music then I'll play a mix of R&B/Soul/Funk/Jazz/Reggae/Danc e/Disco etc. but you can guarantee that a good proportion of my selections will be ones that are popular on the NS scene. As has been mentioned in some of the previous posts, it is "Good Time" music, and should simply be regarded as such. It is probably very confusing for our forum friends on the other side of the Atlantic to truly understand how the scene came about, Carl Dixon in his post on Sunday at 4.05 A.M. struck a chord with me, as it matched how I remember the late 60's/early 70's in the part of England I was living in ( Sheffield ). There was very little music worth listening to being played on the radio, the BBC and the London based media were telling us that we should all be listening to "Progressive Rock" and that going to "Discotheques" and dancing to "Soul" music was a fad that had died sometime in 1967. Were they wrong or what!! If you went to any "youth" club near where I was living in 1969/70, or the "under 18 nights" at The Top Rank Ballroom in the centre of Sheffield, at least 80-90% of the music played was "Soul". It wasn't quite NS as the term is now understood .. you would be likely to hear things like "Soul Sister Brown Sugar" by SAM & DAVE, "I Got a Feeling" by BARBARA RANDOLPH, "Saturday Night at The Movies" by THE DRIFTERS or "Land of A Thousand Dances" by WILSON PICKETT rather than total "obscurities", but the principals were already laid down .. if you were going out you wanted to hear "good time " music, have a dance and have a good time!! As well as these places there were also a handful of venues scattered around Yorkshiire, The North West and The Midlands where people who were particularly keen on "soul" music would go to hear less well known sounds. The term "Northern Soul" didn't even come about until 1972, before that it was known as "Rare Soul", and the whole point of such venues was that you would listen and dance to records that were little known. In fact, I don't know if it still happens, but some people would take along a record or two and ask the D.J. to play them. This brings up a constant dilemna of Americans trying to understand what is NS and what is not. In order to know that you would need to know what was considered "rare" in the U.K. in 1970/71!! Not easy unless you lived here. Robb_K mentions "This Old Heart of Mine" by THE ISLEY BROTHERS, I agree that it would not be termed NS by a U.K. NS fan, yet it has ALL the ingredients of a "Northern Soul Classic" .. the reason is simple .. it had been a huge hit here, charting originally in 1966 on first release then hitting the Top 10 when it was re-promoted in late 1968. The same can be said of the following :- "I Can't Help Myself" by THE FOUR TOPS, "Nowhere to Run" by MARTHA & THE VANDELLAS "Barefooting" by ROBERT PALKER "Rescue Me" by FONTELLA BASS "Roadrunner" by JUNIOR WALKER "Get Ready" by THE TEMPTATIONS "Ain't Nothing But a Houseparty" by THE SHOWSTOPPERS "Give Me Just A Little More Time" by CHAIRMEN OF THE BOARD and a whole lot more .. Attempting to put this in a U.S. perspective, Soulaholic hosts some "Soulful Detroit" get togethers where people bring along records to play .. I've seen his reports of what was played posted on the forum .. a good 50% of the records I've never heard of. I'm sure that if someone were to turn up with copies of "Want Ads" - HONEY CONE, "The Love I Lost" - HAROLD MELVIN, "Backstabbers" - O'JAYS, "Keep On Trucking" - EDDIE KENDRICKS, "Everybody Plays the Fool" - MAIN INGREDIENT etc. etc. then no-one would be in the slightest bit impressed. I'm sure that most people at the meets like these records well enough, but they are well known so it would be a bit pointless travelling miles just to hear them. As for a lot of the records that have gained NS exposure "Sounding Terrible" or being "Not worthy of Mention", I'd like to point out that what is/was most important was/is the beat-rhythm. Specific styles of dancing have evolved over the years that NS fans in England do to "Northern Soul" records .. the beat has to fit the dance .. and not the other way around. In my opinion records like "Talking Loud and Saying Nothing" by JAMES BROWN, "Its Your Thing" by THE ISLEY BROTHERS, "Respect" by ARETHA FRANKLIN, "Tighten Up" by ARCHIE BELL are great records to dance to .. but I would not expect to hear them at a NS event as the rhythm is wrong for the dancing. So, to sum up, IMO some NS is absolutely fantasic, a lot is very very good, most of the rest is O.K and the odd few I would rather never hear again. Most of it would never have had much chance of big commercial success in the U.S in the 1960s if only for the sheer volume of releases, and the quality of the competition. And on that note .. I shall sign off .. Roger | ||
Don (don) 5-Doyen Username: don Post Number: 179 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.75.164.103 |
How I found out about NS was from few Top 40 cover bands that toured the UK and other places and they we're ranting and raving about NS, Allnighter, Rare Soul, Casino Wagan and etc. So for yrs I kept this in mind. Until I came across The SD by chance, by just simply typing either Ric Tic or Golden World and I've been here (actually in oo,o1) since. Cause I always to know about this company and some of the artist from all over the Detroit regions, and had the oppurtunity and pleasure to meet and from other regions too. As to the question of NS. I have to give them credit for keep soul music going after all this time. And also credit is due to David M and staff for including NS and what it's all about. Cause I've been hearing so much about this scene for like 10-12-15 yrs now. So this is an learning experience for me and an valued one. My understanding is it was started and or was based on Motown. Well, I can understand that to a point, but NS folks has got to know that there is nothing wrong with uptempo dance music, but can try and bring down the tempos, they shouldn't have any shame on playing ballads either. Who could dance for long periods to uptempos is beyond believe. This is only my opinion and my views may not be shared by others. I think when all the so call B and C songs that's being labeled as quote on quote "obscure". Well, I think it had a lot to do with individuals in it's golden era like in radio for not pushing the so-call obscure stuff, by pushing and pushing more of the popular stuff, and that's when it got totally confusing later and NS and other's just took whatever singles that somehow got lost to the public's memory, and adapted it and made it as their own. Maybe some soul recordings we're done in bad taste all though I heard a large percentage that we're quite excellent. And I tend to blame quite to a degree DJ's (and others) for not playing the lost and forgotten r&b dusty's, that never gave nor paid no never mind to-which is sad but true. I'm from Chicago and the only artists I hear are Tyrone Davis, Dells, Chi-Lies, Impressions, Jerry Butler and Billy Butler (I'm surprise they still rotate his music), Flamingos and Gene Chandler and a few others to name a few. But that's not all the music that came out of Chicago. Not putting down these artist, I got more to my liking than that. Like, NS and others that play alot of popular, obscure and unreleased stuff. I tend to listen to AM and FM college radio, cause these DJ's dig deeper into finding and spinning more of the lost and forgotten sides even the lp stuff as well. And there's 2 more FM stations I'll listen to as well but pretty soon I'll be favoring the newer station and forgetting about the other one that plays dusty's on Sat & Sun mornings. I think when some companies that sell classic r&b and blues tend to be ridiculous when they put a huge price tag on selling compliation, which is a bit much. I've done some study on some countries and I can see where they come from and what they go thru to maintain a business, and what I too looked into is greed and selfishness for the most part. If no one has a credit card then what? Whatever happened to mail orders? | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1046 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
DaviD M: I thank you for trying to educate me regarding Northern Soul. If I come off sounding dumb, it's only because when I read about Northern Soul & have checked various Northern Soul sites, they're not talking about those popular songs. Nine out of ten times, I've seen them talking about the true obscurities & even the songs that some sites post for download, are those rarities that I keep mentioning. I didn't arbitrarily pick out a percentage, I picked that number based on the songs that they mention & songs that I've downloaded from those sites...songs that were raved about. Now, I'm all for anything that brings people together in the spirit of fun & togetherness. If it's paying respect to Soul & R&B, I can't be angry at that. I just rarely see them mention all of those great 60s R&B/Soul hits. So, maybe I'm wrong from the context of what I've read at these sites. Perhaps those songs are their favorites & does not accurately portray the overall Northern Soul scene. If that's the case, my bad. I'm just speaking of what I've been exposed to on those various sites. Rarely if ever do I see the songs that you've mentioned ever discussed there. Believe me, I'm well aware of the many artists who have moved overseas & were able to make a living there when no one stateside would give them the time of day. I never did like the American tendency to dispose of so many of our Soul/R&B heroes. I've spoken of that in many, many posts in this forum. As such, I definitely respect the whole scene there. In fact, I've stated that I found the embracing of those artists, to be noble. Soulman: I have more than a few of the Kent Northern Soul CDs. Trust me when I tell you that as a former DJ, nothing is greater than discovering a great undiscovered oldie. I can't describe to you the feeling I got when I discovered Stay Baby Stay by Johnny Daye on the Stax Box Set, not to mention all of those great unreleased Motown songs from the vaults. I already know the hits, I like discovering those songs that didn't make it to my region the first time around, I cherish that. Again, if my 95% statement is off base, it's only because of the frames of reference that I've been given. I'll get back to you later because I do appreciate both of you taking the time to explain this to me. There are many more serious issues in the world that you could be turning your attention to. I sincerely appreciate both of you taking the time to discuss this with me. Regards, Juice | ||
Soulman (soulman) 1-Arriviste Username: soulman Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.77.126.54 |
Hi Juice there is no malice or bad feeling meant towards you but ours is a much misunderstood scene I remember a British magazine stating that it was despised by some ,misunderstood by most,but alas it gives great pleasure to fans and artists alike.This year at the Prestatyn Weekender i had the privilege to meet Detroits Melvyn Davies and if you could have seen his face when he came off stage you could do nothing but feel for him,he was over the moon,a postman by day and a musical hero to the people of the Northern Scene he could not believe it,Dennis Coffey was another one,Brenda Holloway said she is treated like a Queen when she visits the UK,what they give they can not believe what they get back and that alone sums up our scene not all elitists and people prepared to pay crazy prices,Dave Leedham. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1063 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Soulman, I simply appreciate you taking the time to explain the scene to me. It must be as frustrating as trying to teach French to a chimpanzee I appreciate the love that is shown artists there. As you mentioned, Edwin Starr loved it so much that he moved there. I've heard of many artists who did likewise. I've read the statements of artists who have raved about the support that they've received in the UK. Personally, I feel sad to know that so many US artists have to travel thousands of miles in order to receive acceptance that they don't receive at home. How could I ever frown upon that??? I thank both you & David M for taking the time to discuss this scene that is so dear to your hearts. When Isaiah started this thread, comments like the two of yours is what I was hoping to read. I've heard the slights, I wanted to hear the other side explained in a reasonable, rational manner. That is what I got & I thank the two of you for standing up for what you love & expressing it all in a understandable manner. Much appreciation! Juice BTW, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'm gonna take you up on your offer. As we used to say when we were kids: "no backsies" | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 291 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.31.68 |
Juice: Part of the reason people don't discuss the merits of the hit songs is similar to the reason they don't want to drive 100 kilometres to hear them. They talked a lot and heard a lot about them when they were out during the '60s and '70s. Their main interest is in discussing and learning more about the relatively "newly discovered (by them) records or songs" which they are hearing and dancing to in the clubs. The fact that big hits are not discussed on these sites has no bearing whatsoever on the relative ranking of those hits vs. the NS rarities in the taste of those NS (and SOUL) fans. Life is short. People want to hear and dance to new tunes (they can still hear the old ones at home. They want to talk about and learn about new things (not rehash old discussions for the thousandth time). If they want to talk about the hits, they know they can go to a "general soul site". | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1064 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
What's up Robb, I can understand that. I still have the mentality of a DJ. Nothing pleased me more to find a great song that no one else was playing. It was great to have someone come up to me and gush over a song that they never heard anywhere else. It was a great feeling indeed. I also felt great when I finally found I Love You by Otis Leavill. I only remembered the melody, couldn't remember the words to save my life. This was a double find, as the way I discovered the song was that the seller was actually selling the flip, I Need You. So, I found the song that I'd been looking for for over 20 years & as a bonus, I discovered a beautiful ballad as well. That is a GREAT feeling & I fully understand what you mean!!! | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 293 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.18.77 |
Yes. And some more proof of the NS people not abandoning discussion of "general soul" just to talk about danceable obscurities, is their frequenting THIS SITE, among others. They feed their interest in the discussion of Northern Soul on the NS sites, and talk about general soul and Motown here, and maybe general soul on some other sites. I imagine that the Northern Soul fans talk about "general soul" about as much on their sites as we talk about "Pop" music on THIS SITE. It's a tangential topic, which can pop up at any time, but represents only a small portion of what is discussed. If you only looked at SD a few times, and looked at but a few threads, you'd be hard pressed to find much discussed about pop music. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1069 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Robb That is true. The conversations definitely lean to Soul here. I've seen other sites where that may not be the case. To be honest with you, in the beginning, I thought that N.S. was quite comparable to the Carolina Beach scene. Do you find any correlation between the Beach scene & Northern Soul?? I've found that the music & artists discussed were quite similar in many cases. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 295 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.18.77 |
Now you're getting it a lot more. Just as most of the artists who sang songs that were classified as "Northern Soul" also sang a lot of other songs that were NOT, artists who sang a lot of "Beach" songs, also sang a lot that were NOT. Producers and their artists usually want to record a variety of styles of music for various reasons. First they have to cover the kinds of songs the artist LIKES to sing. Secondly, they want to appeal to the widest audience, and don't want to get pigeon-holed into a small box of what the artist will be known for. If people group themselves together and appreciate only certain styles of songs later on, and some of that artist's songs fall in that category, it's usually just a coincidence. As Major Lance once said: "It's The Beat". He sang some NS songs and some Beach songs. Is he a Beach artist? Is he a Northern Soul artist. Chuck Berry recorded a couple of standard blues songs. Was he a Blues artist? The Drifters had a couple of NS songs and some Beach songs. Will Chuck Berry be discussed on a Blues forum. Probably, once in an extremely long time, when his Blues songs are discussed. Probably the Drifters' Beach records will be discussed a lot more on Beach fora (forums)than their other records. That won't mean that the Beach fans don't like their other records. As to many of the same artists being discussed on both types of forum, I'm not surprised (based on my comments above). But, I can't really comment on which songs might be considered both Northern Soul AND Beach, as I don't really know much about "Beach Music", having spent NO time on the US East coast. I've spent some time in Belgium (where there are a lot of people who like Beach music-or, at least-soul from that era with the same beat). But, unfortunately, my cousins and friends there aren't into that scene. From what I do know, I'd make a guess that most of the Northern Soul and Beach records DON'T fall in BOTH categories, as they seem to be two distinctive beats. I don't think that most of the Beach music fits Northern Soul-type dancing. But, I'm by far not the best qualified on this to speak for Northern Soul, and DEFINATELY don't know enough about Beach to say much. I'm sure there are others on SD who will answer your question with some authority. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1079 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
From what I'ved read over the years, Beach music seems to be more appropriate for "Shagging" as they would say. As regards Beach music, I've seen a lot of artists like Chairmen Of The Board, The Tams, Otis Leavill & The Drifters discussed. I would have to go back to my website notes for more accurate knowledge regarding the two. I'd love to find out the differences between the two. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 299 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.180.199 |
I remember back in the '70s when Northern Soul was mostly fast "stompers", while Beach was all mid-tempos. A lot of the mid-tempo "Chicago Sound" records, as well as a lot of mid-tempos from The South were Beach, also a fair amount of NY and Philly cuts. But, later, in the '80s when Northern Soul branched into mid-tempos in a big way, I think there was some crossover created. Maybe we should start a "Beach" thread, so we can attract some Beach experts to answer this question? (Message edited by Robb_K on May 25, 2004) | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1082 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Robb, That's a great idea. I thing that you're correct regarding the tempo. I seem to remember that songs such as I Love You 1,000 times were popular with the beach set. Now that you mention it, the Beach songs did seem to have a mid-tempo lope. That Chicago style beat with a touch of a swing to them. Robb, what have we wrought?? | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 154 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
http://www.northern-soul.com/u knsevents.html http://www.northern-soul.com/m odevents.html These two links are an inexhaustive listing of NS events in the UK as we speak. I think the volume of events provides another insight to the extent of this phenomenon. Quite amazing. (Message edited by david meikle on May 26, 2004) | ||
FrankM (frankm) 1-Arriviste Username: frankm Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.154.189.113 |
Northern Soul is a scene of many sides rather than a sound. There are new records being played at certain clubs but not anywhere near as the many new releases that are played on the beach music scene. The bulk of Northern soul fans around these days picked upon the scene in the late seventies and can now afford to indulge in their hobby by buying CD's, records and going to the clubs. At either end of the age spectrum are the original fans from the sixties who just loved soul and R&B and their grandchildren brought up on their parents' records and who can recognise a dance beat, who prefer the orginals to the the sample laden remakes and who like the underground feel of the scene. Isaih mentiuoned Curtis Mayfield. The Impressions were of course known to UK soul fans in the sixties but unlike other contemporary groups did not have a hit in the UK till the seventies. Thus to a lot of current NS fans "You've been Cheating" is a bit of an obscurity and is increasing in value ($50) as well as being very popular on club dance floors. Anyway if you want to catch a flavour of the scene without leaving your computer head for www.radiomagnetic.com/archive/ rnb.php If you click on a reflections show you will hear me playing and commenting on records, reading out the names of some of the clubs that play Northern.You hear some live sets recorded at clubs and catch what UK DJs actually play and you can gasp at some of the prices being paid for 45's when I run down the top ten highest priced Northern soul singles on e bay. You may also wish to check your garage after you get your breath back. One bit of the debate that has been missed out so far has been the general British admiration for other Ameican art forms such as jazz and films, certain types of written fiction and clothing design. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.2 |
Hi Juice, You wrote - "I already know the hits, I like discovering those songs that didn't make it to my region the first time around " That's the Northern Soul scene in a nutshell - and exactly why there's less discussion of records that were hits than those that weren't. Hi Isaiah, You're quite right - I was getting away from the point. Maybe your role as "Thought Provocateur" was "pushing buttons" :-) Actually I DO believe you appreciate my comments - just as I do yours - it's just that we see things different ways. If I ever get to New York or you get to Glasgow we can meet for a few beers and poke holes in each other's arguments - I get the feeling we'd both enjoy the evening. Peace ! Davie | ||
Vonnie (vonnie) 5-Doyen Username: vonnie Post Number: 173 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
This is a really informative thread, and my thanks to all who have given me a great lesson on the subject of NS Music. I had no clue on the origins of the NS Music scene, and this thread has cleared up some of my misconceptions. I'm especially grateful for the link that FrankM posted to RadioMagnetic, I've bookmarked it in my favorites. I listened to some of the songs, and I find some of them to be quite enjoyable . | ||
Soulman (soulman) 1-Arriviste Username: soulman Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.79.54.132 |
If at all possible try to get hold of the book The In Crowd by Mike Ritson and Stuart Russell,in my opinion it gives as good a picture of the Northern Scene as anything.It would be good to hear peoples opinions after they have read it,Dave Leedham. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1097 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
David M, Davie, Robb K, Soulman, Frank M, et.al. Thank you for pulling the veil off of Northern Soul & for allowing me to peek inside. I found your information to be great, informative & extremely interesting. You have opened my eyes to the various nuances of Northern Soul & I appreciate you taking the time to inform this neophyte about your world. Your efforts have been greatly appreciated. I guess that when all is said & done, it's all about fun, camaraderie & one hell of a good time! | ||
Dave Rimmer (dave_rimmer) 1-Arriviste Username: dave_rimmer Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.44.242.200 |
Juice, You just 'Got it' "I guess that when all is said & done, it's all about fun, camaraderie & one hell of a good time!" | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1104 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
David M, Dave R, Soulman, Robb K, Davie, Frank M, et.al: Thanks for helping me to understand! It sounds great to me. I must say that I've never heard of any problems at those many functions. No problems at all, you guys must have a hell of a lot of great memories, not to mention some great stories as well! Thanks again for the insight! Juice | ||
Mark Speck (mark_speck) 2-Debutant Username: mark_speck Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 199.183.107.166 |
Ralph--there really isn't a NS scene in San Jose. It was just a two-day event held a couple of years ago by some of the LA folks who are into Northern soul. It was held at the Cactus Club, which appears to be a concert club along the lines of the Beachland Ballroom or Grog Shop here in Cleveland. For any of you who want to check out a huge selection of NS sounds, go here: http://soulclub.org Best, Mark | ||
Mark Speck (mark_speck) 2-Debutant Username: mark_speck Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 199.183.107.166 |
WHOOPS! That should be http://the.soulclub.org Sorry! Best, Mark | ||
Carl Dixon (carl_dixon) 3-Pundit Username: carl_dixon Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 82.44.203.80 |
All I can say is listen to 'The Vonettes/Touch my heart' at number 34, on this list: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/e lliot.s/whats_spinnin_1.htm and read Sandy's history right here: http://www.spectropop.com/Sand iSheldon/ What can conceivably beat this rhythm and great record? Sorry, did someone say Cubase or error correction? Not likely�.. | ||
Don (don) 5-Doyen Username: don Post Number: 193 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.75.160.203 |
I once corresponded with a guy that was into NS. And he was telling me how bored and frutrated he was with it. I suggested to him why don't he create a playlist and mix the popular songs with the obscure stuff with the rare and unrelease sides, when he's at his radio and club gigs. I don't think I'm rearranging the way NS'ers like to hear their music, I was only trying to help with variety. Maybe it'll work maybe not? | ||
Soulman (soulman) 1-Arriviste Username: soulman Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.77.122.123 |
Thats What Happens At Most Venues. | ||
northern soul (gogs) 1-Arriviste Username: gogs Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 62.31.108.98 |
hi all i'm from Scotland (no it's not part of England) i am a northern soul d.j. as stated in one of the previous posts ns got it's name as it was popular in the north of England but it soon spread through-out the U.K. even now in Edinburgh we have at least 6 ns nights every 2 months, all of which are well attended, proving it is as popular today as it was in the 70s. true many of the reccords are very rare but just as many are available on re-issues or bootlegs for aprox $20, not a lot of money, plus there are loads of ns compilation cds around making the music available to all. remember an item is only worth what some-one is willing to pay for it. |
