| Author | Message | ||
  Rodmann (rodmann) 4-Laureate Username: rodmann Post Number: 164 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
What are your favorite Non-Motown recordings that attempted to get that Motown sound? None of the other record labels could do it exactly like Motown but I actually find some of the copycat records more enjoyable than the real thing. Here are some of my favorites in no particular order: DON'T BE SORE AT ME - The Parliaments YOU HIT ME LIKE TNT - Linda Jones WHISPERS (GETTIN' LOUDER) - Jackie Wilson TIGHTROPE - Inez & Charlie Foxx GONNA HAVE FUN - Ike & Tina Turner DEAR LOVER - Mary Wells | ||
DyvaNaye (westside314) 6-Zenith Username: westside314 Post Number: 424 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 209.212.74.211 |
Hi Rodmann: I wont say rip off in this particular case, but a 'close facsimile thereof'to the folks at INVICTUS-HOTWAX. I feel the same way about them as I do Motown and its no real wonder why. 'The soundtrack of my life' peace, DyvaNaye | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 990 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Well even though we know better, I still have to rate Higher & Higher by Jackie as the best Non-Motown song ever (Even though we know who played on it, don't we???) Then there's The '81 by Candy & The Kisses & Can't Satisfy by The Impressions. | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 317 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 80.14.113.239 |
One that I recently discovered through a DVD is Billy Ocean's "Love Really Hurts Witout you"... You'd swear he recorded that in Studio A with the Funk Brothers... complete with Tambourine and all... this was before he hit the dance scene with 'Stay The Night' or 'Nights (Feel Like Geting Down)' Wonder B If you mess with the 'fro, you gotta go! | ||
Rodmann (rodmann) 4-Laureate Username: rodmann Post Number: 165 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
Sorry guys, I guess "Rip-Offs" is a little harsh. Motown Soundalikes would have been a more appropriate title for this topic. When I said that "none of the other record labels could do it exactly like Motown" I just meant that they couldn't get that Motown Sound. I didn't mean to suggest that non-Motown labels and artists didn't release any fine material because they most certainly did! Juice, I've ALWAYS hated Jackie Wilson's 'Higher & Higher'. Ughh! LOL. It sounds like something that B.J. Thomas should've recorded. Not an ounce of Soul in that record. And Rita Coolidge's remake is even worse!  | ||
Rodmann (rodmann) 4-Laureate Username: rodmann Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
Dyva, you are right about Hotwax/Invictus! I was just listening to Freda Payne's 'Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right' (one of my favorite songs by her) and it sounds like a funkier version of The Supremes' 'Stop In The Name Of Love'. Most of the Hotwax/Invictus material did sound like Motown stuff but the vocals and tracks were slightly funkier. (Message edited by Rodmann on May 21, 2004) | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 185 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Tina Britt--The Real Thing | ||
Don (don) 5-Doyen Username: don Post Number: 174 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.75.180.238 |
Hi Dyva and Rodman, Invictus-Hot Wax we're the same people that created The Motown Sound to begin with. When The HDH split came and the fellas started their own label, I guess they wanted to try their material on other new artist. I liked The Honeycones, Freda Payne, Laura Lee, 1OO% Proof and Chairmen Of The Board. I have heard of 8TH Day and House Of Glass but I was used to hearing the records by the artist I mentioned already. Maybe when you both speak about HDH's company probally sounding alike like Motown, I wonder? People used to say the same thing about Ric Tic-Golden World also. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 993 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Rod: I don't know about Higher & Higher having no soul. I would imagine that a fellow by the name of Jamerson would've disagreed with you. I must say that you are the first person whom I've ever heard utter such words. Well, ok, different strokes. That was one of Jackie Wilsons' most soulful songs ever. No syrupy backgrounds, no cloying strings. Just a burbling bassline that never quit & some bad ass horns. I guess that it depends on your idea of soul. Tell me, what version is superior in your mind? One last question: B.J. THOMAS?????? Come on Rod. Tell me that you're just trying to mess with me a little. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 186 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
The Want of a Nail--Todd Rundgren | ||
Rodmann (rodmann) 4-Laureate Username: rodmann Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
Juice, isn't ANYTHING soulful compared to Jackie's early 60's material? 'Higher & Higher' sounds like something that Elvis would've performed in one of his movies. It's that go-go/'It's Not Unusual' beat and over the top hook that turns me off. I'm not saying that you can't like the song but it's always been one of my least favorite even if Jamerson did play on it. I'm sorry if I offended you Juice but some Pop-Soul tunes rub me the wrong way. All you did was answer the topic that I started. I should've kept my comments to myself. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 997 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
What's up Rod!!! Hey, no harm, no foul. Bro, you have every right to say that you didn't like the song. No offense taken at all. I was just surprised to read that you didn't like it. I wasn't upset, just surprised. I welcome your comments as that's what we're here for. There's absoltely nothing wrong with you saying that you didn't like the song. And you are 100% correct about his early 60s sides. The arrangements were more worthy of Pat Boone than Jackie Wilson. I respect your opinions about this, keep doing your thing, you said nothing malicious! Juice | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 248 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.25.89 |
"My World Is On Fire"-Jimmy Mack "Lucky To Be loved By You" and "Don't Lead Me On Baby"-Emanuel Lasky "I'll Steal Your Heart","Happiness is Here" and "Challenge My Love"-Tobi Lark "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet", "Let Me Know" and "I've Gotta Get You Back"-Mary Love "That Was My Girl", "Heart Trouble", "Don't Be Sore At Me" -Parliaments "You Succeeded" and "World Without Sunshine"-Sandra Phillips "Me Without You", "Everlovin' Boy", "I'm Sorry", "Use Your Head"-Mary Wells "Hurting"-Erik & Vikings "You're my Only Temptation-Roz Ryan "I Need Love"-Willie Jones & Chimes "Just Call On Me"-Eddie (Frank) Wilson "Pulling Petals From A Daisy" and "Don't You Tell A Lie"-Patti Gilson "Good Idea"-Theresa Lindsey "Be" and "Daddy please"-Adorables "Open The Door To Your Heart", "Our Love Is In The Pocket", "Somebody (Somewhere)Needs You" and "Angel Baby"-Darrell Banks "And That's A Natural Fact"-Dynamics "Just One More Time","Lonely No More","Poor Unfortunate Me","Please Let Me In","Say It","Deeper In Love", "Baby, Please Come Back Home", "Sweet Sherry", "Our love Is In The Pocket","Sweet Honey Baby" "Snowflakes"-J.J. Barnes "A Lovers' Quarrel", "The Touch Of Venus", "Love Belongs To Everyone","Love's Like Quicksand" and "How Can Something Be So Wrong (And Always Feel So Good"-Sandy Wynns "So Much Love In My Heart", "This Heart Of Mine" and "I'll Come Running"-Artistics "In A Bad Way" and "Can't Get It Out Of My Mind"-Freddie Gorman "Baby Mine"-Thelma Houston "Mr. Heartbreak" and "Dream Girl"-Herman Griffin "Just like You Did Me"-Yvonne Vernee "I'll Love You Forever"-Holidays (Edwin Starr) "There's Something The Matter With Your Heart", "That's What I Am Without You"-Cynthia & Immaginations (& Imaginary 3) "Geni" and "When I'm In Your Arms"-Terri Bryant "Girl Crazy", "Poor Unfortunate Me" and "Eternally"-Charmaines "Come On And Be My) Sweet Darlin'"-Jimmy "Soul" Clark "Just Say You're Wanted "And Needed)"-Gwen Owens "If You Ever Walk Out Of My Life"-Dena Barnes "Same As Before","I Never Loved Nobody (Like I Love You)" and "Take My Heart And Soul"-Orthea Barnes "I Just Can't Leave You" and "Hit And Run"-Rose Batiste "No Part Time Love For Me"-Martha Starr "I Can't Go On" and "I Need A Love Like Yours"-Deon Jackson "I'll Never Forget You" and "Till The End Of Time"-Metros "Casanova", "Just Loving You", "Woderful Nite" and "Hey Boy!(Take A Chance On Love)"-Ruby Andrews "Gotta Give Her Love", "I Just Can't Help Myself", "One Way Lover" and "The Trouble I've Seen"-Volumes "Fence Around Your Heart"-Monitors "Since I've Lost You-Clay Hunt "I Let Myself Go" and "I Wish I Had Listened"-Geraldine Hunt "Behind Locked Doors"-Witches & The Warlock "I'm The Playboy"-Pyramids "Let Me Be Your Boy"-Wilson Pickett "Never Let You Go" and "I'll Never Forget You"-O'Jays "Right Back Where We Started From"-Maxine Nightingale "Can't Stop Loving You Baby" and "Hey!"-Barbara Mercer "She's My Beauty Queen'-Joe Matthews "Goose Pimples"-Shirley Scott "You Hit Me (Like TNT)"-Alice Clark "Run one Flight Of Stairs" and "My Bad Boy's Coming Home"-Gloria Jones "His Love Is Amazing"-Sharon Soul "He Loves Me" and "He's The Right Kind Of Guy"-Chalfontes "My Heart Is Calling"-Magnificents "Sad, Sad Feeling" and "Love's Gonna Do You In"-Autographs "My Kind Of Girl"-Prophets "Loving You Takes All Of My Time" and "Headache In My Heart"-Debonaires "Just A Boy's Dream" and "Don't Let Love Let You Down"-Phonetics "Hit And Run Lover", "I've Gotten Over You" and "You Never Answered Me"-Sonnettes "Don't Bug Me Baby"-Debra Dion "You Just Don't Know"-Broadways "You're My Leading Lady"-Tommy Frontera "Shy Guy"-Uptights "I Cried For Your Love"-Donald Richards "I Can't Make It Anymore"-Spyder Turner "I'll Get Along"-Al Gar(d)ner "Stop That Girl" and "I'll Keep Believing"-Barbara Lewis "Dance Little Girl"-Cavaliers "Any Two Can Play It"-Barbara & Lyrics "I Got To Have You"-Horace Turner "I Just Can't Leave You"-Tony Hestor "My Baby Knows How To Love Her Man"-Ballads "Ain't Gonna Do You No Harm", This Man In Love" and "Adam And Eve"-New Wanderers "Give Me Love"-Tootsie Rollers "You Won't Say Nothing" and "If You Can Stand Me"-Tamala Lewis That's How Heartaches Are Made" and "Lonely In Love"-Bobby Hutton "Band Of Gold","Deeper And Deeper" and "Cherish What Is Dear To You"-Freda Payne "Ecstasy" and "Love And Desire"-Patrice Holloway I'm sure I'm still forgetting some. I don't think Mary Wells' Atco songs sound anything like "The Motown Sound", neither do Jackie Wilson's Carl Davis productions. Both sound like Carl Davis' Chicago Sound. Jackie Wilson's Gordy Carlo songs and "Am I The Man"-(written by Bob Hamilton) sound more like Motown to me. I didn't bother to list Marv Johnson's later UA songs written by Motown writers but produced and arranged by New Yorkers ("The Man Who Don't Believe In Love"), or Harvey Fuqua's Harvey and Tri-Phi songs that are close to the early Motown sound. | ||
john dixon (john_dixon) 3-Pundit Username: john_dixon Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Nice call, Jimmy Mack, on Todd Rundgren's "The Want of a Nail", which was a duet with Bobby Wommack. Did anyone see the recent film "Camp" about a summer camp for budding performing artists? Cliched storyline but fantastic musical numbers make it very much worth the rental. The final big show/climax of the movie is based around a goosebumpy group rendition of "The Want of a Nail". I always thought that Fontella Bass' "Rescue Me" sounded like Martha & the Vandellas. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 187 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Thanks John-Ive been debating watching that movie but Want of a Nail might make me!!I had no idea per Womack--havent heard in a long time but just remember Todds voice--does Bobby solo or harmony? | ||
john dixon (john_dixon) 3-Pundit Username: john_dixon Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
Jimmy, I haven't heard it in awhile. I had the cassette, "Nearly Human", but I've stashed away all those pesky cassettes (trying to forget that particular, brief pre-CD era. In my mind the timeline goes straight from vinyl and 8-tracks to CDs!) If I remember correctly, Bobby took a verse and sang on the choruses too. A terrific song. | ||
Kdubya (paladin) 2-Debutant Username: paladin Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 206.185.64.23 |
I'll Love you Forever/The Holidays I Like Your Lovin Do You Like Mine/Chi-lites She's not Just Another Woman/8th Day Man in Love/Fantastic Four Everythings Alright/Fantastic Four All the songs by The Dynamic Superiors Jealous Kinda Fella/Garland Green I'm sure theres many more these just came to mind as I was going through the thread. Have a great day ............ Kdubya | ||
rovereab (rovereab) 1-Arriviste Username: rovereab Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.77.161.94 |
Back In Love Again - Donna Summer | ||
motown_david (motown_david) 2-Debutant Username: motown_david Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.93.33.10 |
Anything that the fabulous Nella Dodds recorded on the Wand label, especially her cover of Come See About Me. A revered singer for me. David. | ||
Rodmann (rodmann) 4-Laureate Username: rodmann Post Number: 170 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
OK, that's cool Juice. You caught me in one of my moods when I felt like being blunt here on the forum. I've learned the hard way that there are certain songs, record labels and music figures that you just don't critique here at SDF no matter how gently you do so. Lately I've been on my best behavior and I've bit my tongue quite a few times. LOL.  Robb, I totally agree with you about most of Mary Wells' Atco material and Carl Davis' productions having their own wonderful sound but there were some exceptions. Mary's 'Dear Lover' sounds like a mid-60's update of one of her early calypso inspired Smokey Robinson productions. And Jackie Wilson's 'Whispers (Gettin' Louder)' could easily pass for a Four Tops tune. Personally I prefer the "Chicago Sound" to Motown material. Labels like Chess and Brunswick made some excellent commercial style Soul without begging for Pop/Top 40 acceptance the way Motown did. Everything that came out of Motown was always top quality and excellently produced but the songs could sound too smooth sometimes. Chicago productions and even Motown soundalikes still had enough grit to please ALL Soul music fans. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 263 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.178.61 |
I hear you Rodmann. Those two songs have basic melody and beat structures that are similar to some of the Motown recordings, but I hear Chicago Horns and Chicago strings and Chicago guitars, and Chicago arrangements, and I don't hear the separation or the many track feel that the Motown songs of that period had. They just sound like Chicago recordings to me and not Motown. You know what I'm trying to say? Even the Motown records recorded in Chicago, arranged by Riley Hampton sound like Motown records, not Okeh records. The Motown producers wanted things done a certain way, that seems to have a different overall sound from what Carl Davis wanted. Probably a few of the earlier Mary Wells and Miracles records arranged by Hampton in Chicago sounded like Chicago records, but I can't think of them offhand. I WILL admit this: there were some crossover productions. To me, "So Much Love In My Heart", "This Heart Of Mine" and "I'll Come Running" by the Artistics on Okeh, all sound to me as if they were recorded in Detroit by Motown. I had thought that theses were done in a session for which the Funks had hopped in the car and gone to Chicago to moonlight, as Jack Ashford had mentioned they did several times. I was told by someone here that that couldn't have happened, as Columbia would not allow musicians NOT IN THE LOCAL UNION to work in their studio. It's still hard to believe. The strings and horns sound like Motown's. The arrangement also does. The mixing sounds like Motown's to me. Of course, Barrett Strong was involved, and knew how to make the Motown sound. And, arranger Sonny Sanders also had experience in recording with Motown, and arranging in Detroit. Carl Davis was listed as producer, but I'm sure that, in this case, he was only the "Executive Producer". I'd be willing to bet (from the Detroit sound of the songs-unlike any other of Carl Davis' productions) that Strong and Sanders ran the session. It is also interesting to note that all the other Okeh Carl Davis (e.g. Chicago-based)productions from this period were arranged by Johnny Pate and Riley Hampton. Sonny Sanders was still arranging some records in Detroit at this time, and more importantly, his arrangements still sounded like Detroit records (even on Okeh). To me, he didn't start sounding like pure Chicago, until moving to Brunswick with Carl Davis. To me, both Motown and The Chicago Sound had hard-edged recordings and lighter stuff that tended towards the more poppish end. I don't think the Four Tops'1966-67 songs and Norman Whitfield's Temptations productions were more poppish than Mary Wells' Atco Carl Davis productions. I don't think Jan Bradley's Mayfield written recordings are more edgy than Blinky's "I Wouldn't Change The Man He Is" or Junior Walker's, or Shorty Long's Vocals. I think both Motown and the Curtom-Jalynne-Billy Davis ensembles ran the full gamut of "poppishly light" to edgy. I like most of what both cities produced, for different combinations of reasons (elements). | ||
Michael/Cleoharvey (cleoharvey) 2-Debutant Username: cleoharvey Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 4.172.90.88 |
Len Barry's- "1,2,3" The Toys-"A Lover's Concerto" The Four Seasons- "Let's Hang On" The Foundations-"Give Me Just A Little More Time" | ||
zebop (zebop) 3-Pundit Username: zebop Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
Diana Ross-"Chain Reaction" Phil Collins-"Two Hearts" ABC-"When Smokey Sings" | ||
Rodmann (rodmann) 5-Doyen Username: rodmann Post Number: 171 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
Great post Robb! I see what you mean about the Chicago horns and strings on 'Dear Lover' and 'Higher & Higher'. Like I said in my first post, "None of the other record labels could do it exactly like Motown". I'm glad that we do agree that the song structures on those two tunes are very Motown sounding. Of course Motown had it's share of soulful material and the Chicago labels had their share of Pop-Soul recordings (Rotary Connection, Jan Bradley, etc) but wouldn't you agree that Motown's primary sound (during the 60's and early 70's) was more Pop than Soul? For every 'Stay A Little Longer' by Yvonne Fair and 'I Can't Get Next To You' by the Temptations there were 20 Pop songs like 'Tears Of A Clown'', 'The Happening' and 'The Love I saw In You Was Just A Mirage'. IMO Chicago's 60's output as a whole had a more IN YOUR FACE soulful sound to it. And even the most soulful Norman Whitfield productions to come out of Motown weren't straight ahead Soul compared to the things that Little Milton was putting on wax for Checker or an Etta James on Cadet. I've always considered Motown (during the 60's) a Black Pop label. The sort of songs that I put on when I want something light to listen to. When I want the undiluted Soul I reach for my Little Milton, James Brown, Syl Johnson and Johnnie Taylor recordings. Here are a few more slightly "Motown Sounding" recordings IMO: THE SHOOP SHOOP SONG - Betty Everett FROM THE TEACHER TO THE PREACHER - Gene Chandler & Barbara Acklin | ||
luvhangova (luvhangova) 1-Arriviste Username: luvhangova Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
It May Be Winter Outside(but in my Heart it's Spring)- Love Unlimited Right Back Where We Started From- Maxine Nightengale | ||
john c (john_c) 2-Debutant Username: john_c Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.2.233.107 |
This song had it's own thread a while back but I'll mention it again Right Now Not Later - Shangri-La's ...vibes, sax, tambourine, ELECTRIC bass - very atypical Shangri-La and not produced by George Morton. | ||
SDF (handsome) 4-Laureate Username: handsome Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 170.118.158.14 |
Here's one off the top of my head: Patti La Belle & The Bluebelles-You Forgot How to Love (kinda mimicks the Supremes, "Come See About Me") Handsome | ||
SDF (handsome) 4-Laureate Username: handsome Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 170.118.158.14 |
The Royalettes-It's Gonna Take a Miracle Handsome | ||
roger (roger) 4-Laureate Username: roger Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.35.87.17 |
Hello Everyone. How about "Sweet Understanding Love" by THE FOUR TOPS (A.B.C. records) or "Thank You" from MARTHA REEVES (Arista). Both make me wonder why they ever left Motown to begin with. I've just seen Wonder B's post from last friday mentioning "Love Really Hurts Without You" by BILLY OCEAN. This was recorded in London and was a huge hit in the U.K. back around 1976, and was, I agree, an unashamed attempt to recreate the classic Motown sound. Roger | ||
Reese (reese) 3-Pundit Username: reese Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.15.168.229 |
ITS CRAZY BABY by Ike and Tina Turner LAST MINUTE MIRACLE by the Shirelles and Linda Jones. | ||
Livonia Ken (livonia_ken) 3-Pundit Username: livonia_ken Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 136.1.1.101 |
Well, the terms rip-off is a bit harsh, but it's probably safe to apply it to the songs where a settlement or court decision has subsequently attached them to the Jobete catalog such as: Can't Satisfy - The Impressions 1-2-3 - Len Barry Roll With It - Steve Winwood Regards, Ken (Message edited by Livonia Ken on May 24, 2004) | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 445 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.162.126.179 |
123--Len Barry Cant satisfy--Impressions More Love-Bob Brady At the top of the stairs--Formations Aint nothing but a party--Showstoppers Happiest girl in the world--Nella Dodds Real Thing--Tina Britt The 81--Candy and the kisses This time its love--Tymes | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 194 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Love Dont You Go Thru No Changes On Me, Sister Sledge--very Motown in ways tho with a harder edge-the Motown-esque music intro just knocks me out--; and what about Nothin but a Heartache by Flirtations? | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 285 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.195.48 |
Rodmann: I'll agree with you that the majority of the hardest-pushed songs and artists at Motown starting in about 1964, and accelerating in 1966, were more poppish. They did have blues and bluesy R&B before that: Singin' Sammy Ward, Mabel John, Eddie Burns, Barrett Strong, Chico Leverett, Gino Parks, Andre Williams, Amos Milburn, Cornell Blakely, Herman Griffin, Pete Hartfield, Wyatt "Big Boy" Shepherd, Eugene Remus, Henry Lumpkin, early Contours, Little Otis (leased from One-Der-Ful out of Chicago). Chess was built on Blues. Little Milton was a blues singer, trying to earn a living by selling R&B and "crossover records", just like Bobby Bland and B.B. King's later material. Naturally, the had a higher percentage of harder-edged material. Yes, I agree that the Chicago '60s soul scene was more hard-edged on the average than Detroit, and that was because Motown so dominated Detroit's market, and the other big Detroit soul labels followed Motown's lead down that same track. Detroit R&B was rooted in The Blues, just as much as Chicago's, but Motown's phenomenal success and crossover experience took most of the most successful labels in that direction. In Chicago, it was different. Blues was still very hot into the early '60s. Many of the artists, producers and musicians were rooted in The Blues, some even still involved in it, a bit. McKinley Mitchell, Harold Burrage, Syl Johnson, Tyrone Davis, Bobby McClure, Jamo Thomas, Etta James, The Knight Brothers, Johnny Moore, The Radiants, The Valentinos, Dells, and many more had a bluesy feel to their singing and material. I've been told that "Rescue Me" and "Safe And Sound" by Fontella Bass sound like Motown. I don't hear it. I guess I listen for different things. To me the sound of the instruments and the mixing is much more indicative of a production style than song structure. Good producers should provide their artists with a decent variety of different song styles (structures), to keep them fresh, show their versatility, and appeal to a wider range of listeners. That doesn't mean that they can't have the same highly-professional and highly talented musicians "crank out" all their sessions in a manner that makes them identifiable. I loved the "mechanical sound" of Motown that produced "It's Been A Long, Long Time" by The Elgins, as well as "This Old Heart Of Mine" by The Isley Brothers, "Every Little Bit Hurts" by Brenda Holloway and "Just The Way You Are" by Marv Johnson. I like most of the work by the Chicago artists you and I mentioned, too. I'm not sure I would say that the Motown cuts on average are "less soulful", but just that they pushed their poppish style artists more. SDF Handsome: To me, "It's Gonna Take A Miracle" by The Royalettes doesn't sound anything like a Motown record. It sounds to me like a New York poppish, heavily orchestrated production, like Little Anthony's 1964-65 songs with Randazzo & Weinstein (The same writers and producers as The Royalettes had. To me, their stuff is a little closer to Gamble and Huff than Motown, but sounds a lot more like NY than Philly, nevertheless. Motown didn't have ANY slow, operatic songs like that that I can remember. Maybe to me the sounds of the players on their instruments is the most important feature. The vocal styles varied among the NY groups over the same range as the Philly groups, L.A. Groups, Chicago groups and Detroit (and Motown) groups. The thing that set them apart in styles for each city was the styles of the producers, arrangers and session players, which tend to gel together, somewhat in each city. To me the Chicago producers and arrangers in Chicago, sounded more like each other than they did like their compatriots in the other cities. The same seemed true in Detroit and Philly. Part of it may have been a lot of people in Chicago emulating Curtis Mayfield, Carl Davis and Bunky Sheppard, a lot of people in Detroit emulating Motown, a lot of people in Philly emulating Gamble and Ross, Gamble and Huff and Bobby Martin. The best producers and arrangers also picked up styles from each other (by osmosis). Good tunes and tune phrases (segments) tend to stick in one's ears (without one remembering where they came from). Perhaps the other major factor is the most important: the style of the particular major group of regular session players in each city. They got used to playing with eachother, and developed their own styles. In addition, the producers tended to use those musicians taking advantage of their strengths. So, that also helped develop distinctive sounds for each city. If I hear an Andre Williams production in the mid sixties (when he bounced back and forth from Detroit to Chicago), I can almost always tell if it was a Chicago or Detroit record (or recording). To me, "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" by Mary Love" sounds a LOT MORE like Motown in its song structure, phraseology, and instrumentation. But that's probably an unfair comparison, as it is a Jobete song, written by L.A.'s Jobete office. I would then use "Lucky To Be Loved BY You" by Emanuel Lasky. But that was produced by Don Davis, who had been at Motown; and was probably recorded using some Motown session players, along with other regular Detroit players who were well-used to jamming with them. So, for a better example of a completely unrelated production, I'd use "You Succeeded" by Sandra Phillips. It was a New York record, on a Sue subsidiary (Broadway). It was produced by New York people, none of whom had been at Motown, or connected to Motown (Juggy Murray, Sidney Barnes and J.L. Jackson). There was a loose connection, in that they all had worked with both George Kerr and Bob Bateman, both of whom had honed their trade at Motown, and did good jobs emulating the "Motown Sound". As a matter of fact, another song from that session "World Without Sunshine" was a little better example of capturing "The Motown Sound" than "You Succeeded", but I didn't use it for the example, as it was a Jobete song, written by George Kerr and (Motown/Detroiter) Tom Kemp. Both songs did a fantastic job of capturing "THe Motown Sound". Richard Tee was the arranger. He worked a lot with bothe Kerr and Bateman on their New York recordings which were clearly aimed at sounding like Detroit. These records, to me, sound MUCH, MUCH more like Motown than The Royalettes. But then, I think the criteria we are using for comparison are very different. That's what makes dicourse interesting. I'd be interested to hear why you think the Royalettes' song sounds like Motown. | ||
Randy Russi (randy_russi) 4-Laureate Username: randy_russi Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 169.139.180.100 |
Felice Taylor's "It May Be Winter Outside" on Mustang, produced by Barry White to sound like the Supremes Tootie & the Bouquets on Parkway--"The Conqueror" (sounded like Martha & Vandellas) The 81--Candy & the Kisses The In Crowd--Dobie Gray | ||
Rodmann (rodmann) 5-Doyen Username: rodmann Post Number: 178 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
I was pretty upset the other night Robb. I wrote this long post explaining the difference between the Motown sound and the New York Pop-Soul of Teddy Randazzo productions like 'It's Gonna Take A Miracle'. By the time I got ready to post it you had already beaten me to the punch! LOL. Randazzo's productions were totally unique IMO. They had that New York sound to them but they were more aggressive than the things that artists like Chuck Jackson, Dionne Warwick and Maxine Brown were recording for Sceptor/Wand. You were right on when you pointed out that they were closer in sound to Philly than Detroit. Somewhat similar to the sort of things that Barbara Mason and Dee Dee Sharp were recording at the time. I wish that Randazzo's productions had been even more successful then they were so more people would've tried to mimic it. His records like 'It's Gonna Take A Miracle', 'Goin Out Of My Head' and my favorite 'I'm On The Outside (Looking In)' were very elegant but still had an R&B sound to them. I think that Mary Wells' 20th Century producers tried to get that sound on songs like 'Never, Never Leave Me' and 'He's A Lover'. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1112 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
What's up Robb, I think the closest that Motown came to that operatic sound was with Every Little Bit Hurts by Brenda Holloway. Soulful as hell, but had a little someting different from other Motown Ballads of the period. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 306 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.16.205 |
Yeah, Juice, Brenda's vocal on "Every Little Bit Hurts" is a little operatic, but extremely soulful, and also the Funks' powerful track combined with Brenda's powerful vocal created a unique sound. It's no wonder that it was such a smash hit-and is still so loved by fans today. If you play that song to a kid nowadays, I'd bet they'd say "Wow!-Hey! That's not bad!" (Which is about the best accolade you might expect from a kid today for a '60s song). Whereas, if you played "It's Gonna Take A Miracle", you'd probably hear "Dad (or Mom-or Grandpa with geezers like me)....Did you REALLY listen to stuff like that??? Meaning that Randazzo and Weinstein's operatic style is dated, and doesn't stand the test of time as well as Motown's Funk Brothers' music. I'm not putting Randazzo-Weinstein's stuff down-as I loved the Little Anthony and Royalettes cuts. They're just more dated, more because of the music and arrangements, than because of the strength or weakness of the vocals. I would have liked to hear The Royalettes do some more soulful-style singing with, say, Jerry Ragovoy or Van McCoy. Their cuts on Warner Bros. and Chancellor were also very lightweight and girls groupy. Their most soulful stuff that I know of, was done in the late '60s on Roulette Records. But, even that was done with girls group sound veteran, Herb Bernstein,- so didn't take full advantage of their soulful singing capabilities. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1129 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Robb, I'll tell you what. I'm glad that Niecy made her version. She definitely added a different feel to Gonna Take A Miracle. The Royalettes version is almost proper in their delivery. I can imagine royalty sitting down at tea, listening to some of their songs. I love those songs, they're just a bit lightweight for my taste. Now Little Anthony had the voice to make those songs dynamic. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 308 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.201.245 |
Don't get me wrong, Juice, I love The Royalettes' "It's Gonna Take A Miracle". And, as you said, they did a great job of singing on it. Lot's of emotion. I really feel it when I listen to the record. I bought ALL their '60s records. I just would have liked to see more variety in their material, to help bring to the public their singing abilities and versatility. If Tammy Montgomery (Terrell) had stayed only with Florence Greenberg at Scepter/Wand for her whole career, we wouldn't have known what a great singer she was. The Royalettes' MGM albums-ALL the songs from an EXTREMELY NARROW genre. Not ONE fast song-or mid-tempo, or slightly bluesy song. ALL THE SAME. That was the same also with all their MGM single cuts that weren't on albums. What were the producers thinking? Even Little Anthony and The Imperials' Randazzo-Weinstein productions had a variety of song tempos and styles (albeit all with their patented heavy orchestration). Sure, you've gotta go with your strengths, but, hey! Give the record buyer a little hint of what the artist can do. Nobody wants to hear 12 carbon copy songs in a row! | ||
Rodmann (rodmann) 5-Doyen Username: rodmann Post Number: 179 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.223.169.197 |
If you played ANYTHING recorded before 1990 for a young music fan they would say "Did you really listen to stuff like that?". The average young music fan IS NOT magically going to fall in love with a song like 'Every Little Bit Hurts' just because it supposedly featured The Funks and James Jamerson on bass! I've always thought that West Coast musicians were used on 'Every Little Bit Hurts' anyway. The Royalettes' 'It's Gonna Take A Miracle' is an elegant Pop song. Even though it's an elegantly "proper" Pop song it's not as saccharine as several Motown songs I can think of ('The Love I Saw In You Was Just A Mirage', 'The Happening', 'Tear Of A Clown', 'In And Out Of Love', etc). Obviously The Royalettes record "stood the test of time" because it's inspired several remakes over the years by artists like Laura Nyro & LaBelle, Honey & The Bees and the hit version by Deniece Williams. Deniece gave an OK vocal performance but production-wise her remake is a sick joke! Teddy Randazzo gave The Royalettes a full orchestra and Deniece got what sounds like a small band and a few string players. The original got a much better production. Here in the Midwest (Chicago) Teddy's productions for Little Anthony & The Imperials have held up fantastically. 'Hurts So Bad', 'I'm On The Outside (Looking In)', 'Going Out Of My Head' are Oldies Radio staples that have been covered many times. I'm aware that this forum is on a site called Soulful Detroit and I'm all for The Funks getting as much props and love as they can get but I just wish that the love could be spread around a little more evenly. Chicago, Philly, L.A., New York, Muscle Shoals, etc all had their share of great artists, songs and musicians. Carol Kaye, Richard Tee, Earl Young, Norman Harris, Lenny Pakula, Riley Hampton, Chips Moman and several others were excellent musicians who were involved in just as many hits (If not more) than The Funk Brothers! WHERE'S THEIR LOVE? | ||
Soul-Brother (soulbrother) 4-Laureate Username: soulbrother Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.234.162.16 |
Amen Rod!!! Barry | ||
Kdubya (paladin) 3-Pundit Username: paladin Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 206.185.64.23 |
"Flash Message", over the holiday I was playing The Impressions greatest hits and I swear those guys were channeling the "Four Tops" on their classic hit "You've Been Cheatin" right down to the Sugar Pie honey bunch strings.......it was scary...but a good record none the less...... | ||
Arcadia (arcadia) 3-Pundit Username: arcadia Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 4.237.17.136 |
One Bad Apple - The Osmonds ABC - The Jackson 5 If that doesn't qualify as a Motown rip-off I don't know what else would. So many people thought that was Michael Jackson singing the lead (including yours truly, until the middle of the song). |
