| Author | Message | ||
  zaya (isaiah) 2-Debutant Username: isaiah Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
...and zero to do with Africa(smile!) Enjoy! http://www.news.scotsman.com/i ndex.cfm?id=961062003 ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------ Black music from Scotland? It could be the gospel truth DETAIL COPIED FROM OTHER WEBSITE HAS BEEN DELETED BY MODERATORS. THIS IS NOT ALLOWED. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 934 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
What's up Brother I!!! Well, I really don't know what to say about this. I need some time to digest all of this. If it's true it kinda shoots all of our previously held beliefs straight to hell, doesn't it???? Couldn't you just imagine James doing a split in a Kilt??? (Message edited by Juicefree20 on May 18, 2004) | ||
Ron Murphy (ron_murphy) 3-Pundit Username: ron_murphy Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.42.90.140 |
WOW zaya very interestering and deep,thanks very much for posting it. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 939 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Brother I!!!! Do tell me, where do you come up with these things Bruh??? I would have never thought to look twice at something like that! | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 5-Doyen Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 398 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.236.27.134 |
 here it is | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 946 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
The original Soul Brothers. I think the song they were cutting was called Bagpipes With A Feeling or Blues & Bagpipes. I guess that these fellas really did have a BAG of their own!!! Man, this theory just screws my head completely around! I've got to read it again, there goes 43 years of what I thought I knew, up in a puff of smoke. WOW!!! | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 947 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Imagine the possibility....The Ku Klux Klan linked to Soul music..... INCREDULOUS!!! So, if this is true, what do we call the music now??? | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 264 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.48.89.178 |
This is absolutely unbelievable! (just a way to express my feeling) because it could be believable if he clearly shows and records the Scottish singers are singing in the same way... Truly remarkable article really... fascinating... Thanks a lot Zaya Wonder B | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) Moderator Username: david_meikle Post Number: 120 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
This is a fascinating article and one which should be taken seriously. I just wish there was no link to slavery. But there is. David in Scotland | ||
zaya (isaiah) 2-Debutant Username: isaiah Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
Morning folks!(smile!) Now, professor Ruff has still yet to explain the presence of the Scotts in the english-speaking Caribbean, Australia, and Africa, and yet no similar gospel style as that perfected by Blacks in the United States(smile!) As most African descended folk arrived in this hemisphere from West Africa, and had had little to no understanding of Christianity as practiced by Europeans, they learned the religion and psalm-singing from Europeans(the Scotts, if you like), so there's nothing particularly new about his "research..." In fact, in a multi-cultural African environment, in which various African ethnic and cultural groups were joined together, those Africans learned different things from one another... Throw into that mix, the Native American or Indigenous cultural borrowings, and one could say they're contributions to African American culture must be studied as well... I think Professor Ruff advanced an argument that has been made already a thousand times over, and the fallacy in the argument is that no where does it mention that he studied, first, the African influence, which requires a helluva lot more than going to Africa to "find my cultural roots."(smile!) As I said, many African ethnic groups were lumped together to ultimately form one group, and all of those groups must, therefore, be studied before reaching any conclusions... That is what research is all about, and it is painstaking stuff... For years it was believed that African American speech was learned from the Scotts, the Irish, the English, and then researchers like Franz Boas began to do field research in Africa, and found that the grammatical structure of African American speech draws from Western-Central African language families... Ironically, language and speech is where the Soul in American-style Soul Music is found, and Professor Boas' research is more than 100 years old... I am wondering whether Professor Ruff ever took the time to study Boas, and other's, research??? Addtional flaws in Professor Ruff's arguments would include such things as, call and response practices found in all of the popular musics of Blacks in this hemisphere - even those who speak spanish, french, and dutch - but yet not found in Scottish psalm-singing... The rythmic patterns found in African American music(hemispherically)which Europeans are only, now, keeping step to, is another problematic issue in his research(smile!) This must be explained in context before I reach any conclusion that Professor Ruff's conclusions are valid... That they are worth discussing, sure, but taken so seriously as to dismiss as hard fact??? Nope... By the way, Jazz and the Blues, are also under critcial study by Caribbean scholars as having their origins there, so, apparently, Black folk in America, as Stevie Wonder might put it, 'you haven't done nothin'' in the musical arena(smile!) Peace! Isaiah | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 276 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 80.13.241.86 |
Absolutely right Isaiah... one point of view or angle of research connot sunddenly take preeminence over what has been said, studied and witnessed for many years... it's just another stone to build a castle... All this can be speculations until really proven, but it sure is an interesting idea... I would love to know more about Scottish singing (about which I am totally ignorant! LOL) and why or how it may be similar in some respects to African American Gospel... Anything new is worth investigating and why not. One side can't hold the whole truth though and there are multiple factors that have been coinciding together to form what we know now... Wonder B | ||
Eva (bigswede2002) 3-Pundit Username: bigswede2002 Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 130.237.171.253 |
Hi Zeke, Nice to see you back! Concerning Professor Ruff's "groundbreaking" discoveries, I was also a bit surprised when his findings were presented as something new and sensational! It's been quite a while since I found quite a few articles, sites etc. online, which explain the link between the practices of "lining out" in White and African-American churches. From what I have gathered, lining out songs was common in the churches of Colonial America and is still common today in some Southern "white" congregations (just like the "Sacred Harp" singing that is common to both races): http://earlyamerica.com/review /fall97/sing.html http://www.museum.msu.edu/muse um/tes/gospel/aframgospel.htm Eva | ||
Eva (bigswede2002) 3-Pundit Username: bigswede2002 Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 130.237.171.253 |
Hi again, I just realized that direct quotes from other web sites might not be allowed here, so I'll give the URL for the web site with the article I quoted just in case (I'm so sorry, moderators!): http://www.thegreatseparation. com/newsfront/2003/09/black_ya le_prof.html Eva | ||
Eva (bigswede2002) 3-Pundit Username: bigswede2002 Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 130.237.171.253 |
Hi again, Here's a fine web site on both "lining" songs and the shaped-note singing tradition: http://www.folklife.si.edu/97f est/likeariv.htm Eva | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 4-Laureate Username: ~medusa Post Number: 94 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.79.164.164 |
I can very well believe this, due to the fact that as I've once stated, our 'original' culture and times of antiquities were all destroyed and/or hidden...and if I may say, just about every country had a hand in slavery, so this doesn't surprise me at all. I would love to hear what Scottish Gospel sounds like. ...and so it is, when you're plucked up from the root of your natural origin, you have no other choice, but to take on what's around you, or you die. I'm quite sure everyone knows that christianity wasn't a religion to Africans, unless they were taught by mercenaries/missionaries or until they became slaves to the people of christian religions. ex: thte slaves were taught to speak a language that their tongues weren't designed to speak, believe in a god they'd never seen, a way of life that they've never experienced...yet, they weren't allowed (by these christians) to learn to read...and again, so what do you do??? There seems to be those (mass media)that desire to discredit our greatness as a people and will take it and run with it everywhere...I've yet to see anyone tell about us before the captures and the slave ships... I can't speak for others, but as a decendant of the ascendants of the Mother Land, there's always been rhythm and song...and I'm quite sure that every country that had a hand in the tricks, trades, conquer, divisions, and slavery of the African Nations (and it's benefits) also took and stole that which was good, and that includes what we call music...our music...and all the crumbs of life that we as a people received, we somehow turned them into loaves of bread, by adding our spices...Let the music play | ||
Lynn Bruce (lynn_bruce) 2-Debutant Username: lynn_bruce Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.41.119.244 |
Our Detroit St.Andrews society(I'm a member) has our annual Highland Games the second saturday of august at Greenmead on 8-mile and newburgh rd. in Livonia.We have people that are African and Scottish blood in our society. We have a huge celieh(sp)(party) the night before on friday there. If you want to get in touch with your roots on both sides and see the similarites you should make the party. You can,t believe how kick-ass the Scottish rock/gaelic bands are that play for it.(think Avarage White Band) God bless America& Scotland,Lynn P.S.May those rotten son of a bitches that formed the ku klux clan burn in hell forever and all members past and present!!! | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.1 |
Hmmm - I first read about Prof. Ruff's theories last October when I was reading a newspaper at Glasgow's Mitchell Library which was running a month-long exhibition to coincide with Black History Week. A day or so later BBC Radio Scotland broadcast an interview with him during which examples were played of recordings of Gaelic religious choirs and US gospel choirs. I couldn't see the much similarity myself but maybe part of that's down to the fact that the Scottish choir were singing in Gaelic and the use of a different vocabulary and part of me's trying to figure out what they're singing. BBC Radio Scotland usually archive their programmmes for internet users but I don't know whether or not the programme would still be accessible. I had thought about mentioning it on the forum at the time but decided against it in case in provoked another slanging match. How did you come across this, Isaiah ? Davie | ||
Nosey (nosey) 4-Laureate Username: nosey Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.153.113.238 |
I'm Progressive Primitive Baptist and we sing our hymns in the lining out nature. | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 195 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.42.211.240 |
Davie Gordon - What Country are you? Could you find that radio show for us? I want to hear it. Thanks! | ||
Soulaholic (soulaholic) 4-Laureate Username: soulaholic Post Number: 159 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.41.40.105 |
Interesting articles that relate to this topic links are listed below African Music in a Social contex article. http://www.acslink.aone.net.au /christo/histmain.htm Article listing many African Tribes and the Art they produced. http://users.pandora.be/africa n-shop/tribe_info.htm History of Black Gospel Music http://afgen.com/gospel1.html African American Gospel Music Resources Chicago library http://www.chipublib.org/008su bject/001artmusic/gospel/gospe lmusicpage.html Negro Spiritual . Com link http://www.negrospirituals.com / Large Gospel Music link site. http://www.bfactormusic.com/go spelmusic/ | ||
Lynn Bruce (lynn_bruce) 2-Debutant Username: lynn_bruce Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.41.119.244 |
Sis,I believe Davie lives in Glasgow,Scotland,from his past postings. | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 197 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.42.211.240 |
Thank you Lynn Bruce, one of my favorite neighbors. Hopefully, I will see you soon. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 235 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 204.108.65.10 |
I worked in West and Central Africa, and I have heard the "call and response" singing which is traditional there. If the slaves learned the Scottish call and response style of hymn singing, that might be the most pallatable form of singing the English words that they could adapt for use in their worshipping in the (new-to-them) Christian religion. It is analagous to the Mayans of Central America accepting the blood sacrifice ritual imagry of Jesus Christ, as letting of blood as an offering of fealty to their gods was what they were used to. If the African slaves had only the White Christians' forms of Christian worship as models for what they could use, naturally, they would gravitate towards those forms which are most similar to the ways of their own former cultures. I submit that they must have also been exposed to other European forms, but most gravitated to the style most comfortable to them. African-American speech has been heavily influenced by the African speech forms of the slaves, but as they are speaking the foreign English language, the particular dialects of English of the Europeans among them had to be an influence, as well. The same must be true for the forms of worshipping. it had to be a mixture of African and European forms. But no one in the dominant European culture can be accurate by saying that most of the influence came from Europeans. That can not be so. | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 286 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 80.14.145.76 |
Yes and no Robb K because I lived in West Africa for 12 years and in the French West Indies for 2 (and my wife is from Martinique) and how can one explain that there is no gospel singing in the french carribean. After all they also came from the same area of Africa... Mind you I am not saying that it's the European (or should I say United KIngdom solely and the english language in itself) who are responsible for this form of expression. I am merely asking this question (and wondering like I always have), why black people in France don't sing the way african americans do? Wonder B | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 236 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.200.212 |
The French Christian singing didn't offer their slaves the call and reponse form as an option, because it wasn't in the French Christian singing tradition. Uniquely African forms of worship taken into the slaves' form of Christian worhip would likely not have been allowed by the White masters, as they wanted to squash any attempt of the Africans to continue their own culture. The Sots had no problems with the Africans adopting the Sottish Christian form of singing. The Brazilian slaves adopted Portuguese Christianity, but also melded into it beliefs related to their previous beliefs in West Africa. Umbanda and other ritualistic religious sects are interwoven with Christian beliefs. Saint worship was used to hide the continued worship of the various natural spirits in the Catholic countries. I assume that also occurred in the French Carribean islands. I've never lived in the Carribean and don't know how the descendents of the slaves sing in church, but I imagine their singing is based on singing French colonial forms with a heavy African-based underlying accent or style? I imagine that the people from Curacao and other Dutch Carribean islands who are professing Christians, worship in a way similar to the normal Dutch Reformed Church, but do it in their own style coming from their linguistic and ritualistic history. I know their Dutch speech has a heavy Afro-Carribean underlying accent. | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 287 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 80.14.145.76 |
Thanks Robb K for the perfectly logical explanation... In the french WEst INdies they speak Creole (which strangely enough is almost the same creole found in Reunion Island and Mauritius (on the other side of the globe) and creole is a dialect using old french words with minor differences between islands... Haiti (french speaking which also speaks creole) This old french is of course seriously twisted by a special accent LOL Nothing to do with African accent in french though. And a lot of local idiomatic expressions (very colorful!) Most of the bands in these islands use Creole as the main language in their music & songs (Kassav being the main name which came from Martinique & Guadeloupe where the music is called Zouk), as in Haiti where the main music form although a bit similar for a non trained ear is called Compass... Wonder B If you mess with the 'fro, you gotta go! (Message edited by Wonder B on May 19, 2004) | ||
Destruction (destruction) 2-Debutant Username: destruction Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 69.139.236.125 |
Maybe Colin Powell is the missing link in all this. | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 4-Laureate Username: ~medusa Post Number: 96 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.79.165.76 |
Soulaholic~~~~Good Work~~~~~~Thanks!!!! | ||
Soulaholic (soulaholic) 4-Laureate Username: soulaholic Post Number: 161 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.41.40.105 |
Information is Power Medusa, thanks: The more we teach our children this fact by demonstrating the act of reading and listening to what other have to say the greater we are tied to them and their journey through life even after we have passed on to our rewards what ever they may be. lol Teach a child through example is the greatest act we can perform during our lives. imho. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.2 |
Sis, I checked the Radio Scotland website - it seems that only the previous seven days programmes are accessible through the web. Anything over a week old probably still exists somewhere on the BBC's computers but isn't available to the public. The address is www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland You could try e-mailing them telling them you're interested in the programme ( I wish I'd taken a note of the detailsd at the time) - they might be able to help. Good Luck ! I was looking over this thread again and just noticed Isaiah wrote "Now, professor Ruff has still yet to explain the presence of the Scotts in the english-speaking Caribbean, Australia, and Africa, and yet no similar gospel style as that perfected by Blacks in the United States(smile!)" Isaiah, do you know where Scotland IS ? Or who the Scots (not Scotts) are ? davie (Message edited by Davie Gordon on May 20, 2004) | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.2 |
Sis, I did a bit of searching and came up with this - it's from the website of the Free Church of Scotland - their response to Prof. Ruff's speech. www.freechurch.org/robbo.html the Church's website also has a message board where's there's some discussion of the topic - if you key in "Salm in Salem" in the search box it should bring up the messages. If you told me a year ago I'd be looking at the Free Church's website I wouldn't have believed you !;) Davie | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.2 |
Another one www.gaelicpsalmsinging.com davie | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 199 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.42.211.240 |
Davie Gordon - Thank you so much for that information. I know what you mean about looking for the Free Church. I don't want to go around saying that DMeikle is my long lost cousin. (LOL) | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 200 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.42.211.240 |
Wow, that last link "Gaelic Psalm Singing," is right on time. Thank you so much Cousin Davie. | ||
zaya (isaiah) 3-Pundit Username: isaiah Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
"Yes and no Robb K because I lived in West Africa for 12 years and in the French West Indies for 2 (and my wife is from Martinique) and how can one explain that there is no gospel singing in the french carribean. After all they also came from the same area of Africa..." Wonder B., there is a very simple explanation to your question - as long as you're willing to accept a simple truth: there was no such thing as "gospel" music until a man named Thomas A. Dorsey(Georgia Tom) coined the phrase, and, yes, invented the genre by writting it's seminal, and best known song, Precious Lord(Take My Hand)... Dr. Thomas A. Dorsey was a former bluesman, who wrote Precious Lord upon the untimely death of his young wife and child... He used the blues idiom and style to create his masterpiece, and coined it a gospel song... Unfortunately, the phrase is misused as a one-size-fits-all description for Christian music... As a purist, as one who respects Dr. Dorsey's legacy, I never refer to Christian music sung in the hymmal style of the Presbyterians, or any such denomination, as Gospel music... I never refer, either, to Jazz as Classical music, or R&B as Rock, because picking a cherry from a tree does not mean you've got the tree, just one of it's fruits... That, I believe, is where the Professor erred in his hypothesis... The blues does not derive from Gospel, but the reverse... The creator of the genre was, himself, a Bluesman, not a preacher... Further muddling this history are the same bourgeosie African American church folk who, first, rejected Thomas Dorsey's brand of music as the "devil's music." Out of shame, I believe, African Americans continue to refuse to admit that their spiritual musical style could have derived from the UnGodly Blues... In my humble judgement, Professor Ruff actually exposed himself as among that ilk by apologizing to the Scottish community for having a hand in a creation NOT of their making... Now, if Professor Rudd were to compare, say, jubilee singing, or the negro spiritual to Scottish Psalm-Singing, he'd not have an argument from me, but Gospel is a whole other animal, completely, and that because it is derived from the Blues... Once more, Jubilee singing and Negro Spirituals are not the Gospel... They are the hymn songs you'd hear in any presbyterian church... Now, Wonder B., wouldn't it be better to compare, say, the Jamaicans, Barbadians, Trinidadians, Grenadians, and the Guyanese Blacks to African Americans when trying to determine what the Scottish influence is???(smile!) We all speak english, but only ONE does Gospel - even with the Scottish influence(smile!) Why??? You will find your answer by re-reading this post, or simply by accepting the fact that the Blues is the foundation of Gospel music, not Scottish hymn singing, or French hymn singing, or even African American hymn singing... Finally, each group of African descendents created their own musical culture out of their own unique circumstances, just as did European groups... They surely borrowed whatever they felt useable, but no group takes whole cloth from another, and "influence" can be used in a dangerous fashion when used as it has been by Professor Rudd... Knowing Black people as I do, if we are proud of one thing we do, and have done, on this earth, it is our ability to make music, and dance to the music we've made... Reading Alan Lomax's The Land Where The Blues Began, I chuckled to read about the contempt the Black musicians held for the Whites who hired them to play the square dances, how they derisively called it "hillbilly" music... I don't know what would make someone in their right minds think that African Americans would trash their own sound, and cash it in for some classical music, or Scottish hymns, but to each his own... By the way, I am not trying to insult anyone by these statements, I am simply expressing one part logic, and one part personal pride in my own culture... I know that just gets under some folks skins, but...too bad... Unlike Professor Rudd, I don't feel the need to apologize about African American culture... It's beauty has been tried, tested, and found true... Peace! Isaiah | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 237 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.183.150 |
Isaiah: It is true that there were Scots in the Carribean, and the British colonies in Africa, but no African slaves were brought to Australia. In the Carribean, the Scots may not have been concentrated enough to have their own churches; and therefore, their type of psalm singing wouldn't have been exposed to their slaves. The same may have been true in the British African colonies. It's possible that in the Southern North American British colonies there were enough areas with concentrations of Scots to have Scottish churches in such numbers that their influence on the slaves could be strong enough to eclipse that of the more staid Church of England styles. The latter wouldn't likely have been embraced by the slaves as their style bore no resemblance to their African traditions. The Aboriginies in Australia had no tradition of "call and response" singing, so that style of Scottish psalm singing wouldn't have been attractive to them. Also, wasn't Church of England very dominant in Australia? In addition, I'm not sure that large numbers of Native Australians were forced to adopt Christianity. Wonder B.: The speech accents in Mauritius and Reunion being similar to that in Guadeloupe and Martinique is no surprise to me, as the bulk of importation of African slaves to French colonies in the Carribean and Indian Ocean occurred most heavily during the same centuries. The French spoken by the European colonials may well have been similar, as I believe their French colonists tended to come mainly from the same French provinces (the maritime provinces of Bretagne, Normandie, Picardie, Provence (Marseilles, Toulon)Isle De France (Paris). The patois in those colonies would have been dominated by the dialect from the dominant (in numbers)place of origin, or if none was dominant, a mixture of forms from all contributing dialects, from the early period of colonisation. The new colony dialect develops from that base, and over the years, strays farther and farther from the mother tongue, having its own identity. When new emigrees arrive from the mother country, they start speaking like the colonials. Eventually, that colonial patois becomes a different dialect, and after a several hundred years, can become a different language (such as Latin imposed upon Celto-Iberians in Spanish Galicia and northern Portugal became Portuguese, while the same latin imposed upon the pure Iberians of Spain became Spanish. That same Latin imposed upon the southern French in Provence and Languedoc became Provencal, more directly related to Catalonian in northeastern Spain, than to the Northern French dialects, which were based on the much purer Celtic strains trying to make the Latin sounds. I got way off topic here. Basically, the African Slaves would not have been allowed to worship as they wished, using strictly African forms. They were forced to adopt their masters' Christian religion. In the case of those slaves who were subject to owners in Scottish dominated areas, they could adopt a "comfortable" worshipping style that was accepted as no threat by their masters. I assume that in subsequent centuries, when all the slaves had been Christian for a long time, the comfortable Scottish psalm singing style took over, as it was the best fit to the remnant ofAfrican traditions. Le Francais Canadien was based heavily on the dialects from Bretagne, Normandie, Picardie and Artois from the 1600s. The Afrikaans Language (or Dutch dialect-to some) of The Union of South Africawas based heavily on the dialects of North Holland (Amsterdam, Haarlem) from the 1600s. The speech of the Zulus and other South African tribes speaking Afrikaans sounds like South African Zulus and other tribes speaking 1600s North Holland Dutch, but making the sounds of their own languages in situations where the sound in 1600s Dutch didn't exist in their African language. Sounds and phonemes unique to "Ebonics" exist because the West African slaves didn't have given sounds in their native languages for those given sounds in English. In those cases, the unique "Ebonisms" represent the closest approximation the Africans could make to the sounds that hadn't existed in their language. I have noticed that phenomenon in Dutchmen (who have never spent time in an English-speaking country, and had not listened to a lot of native English-speaking people or recordings. They pronounce th as "t", as th is not a native sound in Dutch, and in borrowed words, "th" is pronounced "t". Also "d" at the end of a word is pronounced "t", and so is also when they are speaking English. The sound "sk" did not exist in several of the West African languages of a majority of the Western Hemisphere African slaves, however the "x" sound did. That is the origin of many African-Americans pronouncing "ask" as "axsk". I am sure there ARE at least subtle differences between the Indian Ocean French patois and the Carribean, as the African slaves in the Carribean came from West Africa, and those of the Indian Ocean came most from East Africa I believe,-not so?). Every situation in history is unique. The formation of groups of people considering themselves a "people" or nationality with its own traditions happens because of a different combination of circumstances in each case. There is an unique combination of circumstances as to why the "call and response" gospel style developed in southern USA, and I believe this theory of the Scottish Psalm singing could well be PART of the answer (certainly not ALL of the answer). | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 4-Laureate Username: ~medusa Post Number: 104 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.249.244.222 |
Good Post Isaiah...and that's the Gospel truth, and I betcha! (smile) | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 239 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.183.150 |
Yes, Isaiah, the last paragraph of your last post says it all. The slaves in southern USA may have borrowed something from the Scottish hymn singing, but they combined it with rhythms and note patterns and other elements from their African cultures, and made it into their own, unique artform. The certainly didn't borrow the whole style (lock, stock and barrel) from the Scots. The same must be true of the Carribean, Brazilian, Guyanian and all other African slaves cultures and colonials. ALL cultures build upon their past as a basis, and add elements from their continuing experiences. | ||
zaya (isaiah) 3-Pundit Username: isaiah Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 149.174.164.24 |
Thank you, Shuga Brown!(smile!) RobbK, with all due respect to you, let's presume that your theory is true, that the concentration of Scottish churches were more plentiful in the Southern United States, than in other British Colonies... Are we to presume that Black slaves down in Carolina, Georgia, Alabama were allowed to attend church serivices with the masters in 1863, and Martin Luther King himself couldn't get into one of those churches in 1963??? It is nice and palatable to believe that so, but history tells us it is not so... Even in the northeast, Where Richard Allen established the African Methodist Episcopal Church(AME)in Philadelphia, free Blacks were not allowed to worship in equality with whites, but we should suspend our consciousness, and the accounts of historians to believe that African Americans down in the south, under slavery, were worshipping in churches with Whites???(smile!) RobbK, actually, there are quite a few great books on this subject, such as Lawrence W. Levine's, Black Culture and Black Consciousness:Afro-American Folk Thought From Slavery To Freedom, Dr. Robert Farris Thompson's Flash of The Spirit:African & Afro-American Art & Philosophy, and Dr. Melville Herskovits's, The Myth of The Negro Past... Its important to read these books, all written long before this latest hypothesis by Willie Rudd, rather than speculating as folk are doing here... Herskovits and Farris Thompson even devote their books to examining Black culture hemispherically, so that the speculation done here comes into sharper focus... It starts to get silly if you can't prove there were more scottish churches in the British Islands than there were here... Another great book to read, though more of a study of African philosophical thought, is Jahnheinz Jahn's, Muntu: African Culture and The Western World... Try reading these works, and see if you still believe your postulations... Peace! Isaiah | ||
zaya (isaiah) 3-Pundit Username: isaiah Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 149.174.164.24 |
Also, RobbK, I must claim ignorance about Scottish Call and Response... I have never heard of that until now... Is there some hymn singing you can refer me to so that I could listen to it??? Peace! Isaiah | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 241 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.19.138 |
I see your point, Isaiah. I never even thought about how the slaves would have had the masters' religion and forms of worship taught to them. No, I hadn't assumed that the slaves worshipped with the Whites in their churches. I assumed that the European religious leaders taught the religion to the slaves in "lessons", as the Spanish did to the Native Americans in their colonies. But THAT implies that the Reverends brought their Churches' choirs to the slaves to teach them how to sing in their style? I can picture a single church man teaching songs to the slaves, but not bringing a choir to perform for them. You made a good point-THAT doesn't make much sense! But why, then would that African-American make the statements and assumptions, he made, if the Scottish psalm hymn singing is NOT call and response style, and sounds only very loosely (if tthat) like the bulk of African-American Gospel Music? I have to admit that I've never heard singing in Scottish Churches that sounded like American Gospel music. The Presbyterion Churches whose music I've heard did NOT have "call and response" style singing. Being as I haven't been exposed to the results of studies on this subject and the related facts, I can't comment about whether or not Ruff's theories are true or not, only whether or not they COULD be true, based on the "findings" of his research. I didn't account for the possibility that his "facts" and findings were grossly inaccurate. From reading his article, I just assumed that the Scottish psalm hymn singing sounded very close to US Gospel music as we know it. If it doesn't, his theories make no sense. And then, i have to wonder WHY DID HE WRITE THAT??? Thanks for the references to the research on the subject. | ||
Carl Dixon (carl_dixon) 2-Debutant Username: carl_dixon Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 82.44.203.80 |
Interesting - but what about the Welsh connection to all of you in the USA: http://www.rhondalee.com/index .html?target=tfc_us.html and if you have ever wondered where the name 'America' came from, you are in for a shock (go to number 3): http://www.britannia.com/celti c/wales/facts/facts1.html | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.4 |
Sis, you're very welcome. I'm glad you found those links interesting. davie | ||
Lynn Bruce (lynn_bruce) 3-Pundit Username: lynn_bruce Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.41.119.244 |
Zeke,if you go to Davie Gordons post about half way,he gives a web site www free church ect.---I heard a sample of the singing on there. It has a strange effect on a person.Kind of a lonly sound | ||
BankHouseDave (bankhousedave) 3-Pundit Username: bankhousedave Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.93.33.10 |
A thousand years ago, there was a black king of Scotland called Kenneth the Niger. Maybe he handed them the gospel...?http://www.100greatblackbriton s.com/bios/niger_val_dub.html | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 75 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.2 |
Dave, I think I just might have read about this at some point in the last forty years if there had been any truth in it. Oddly enough they don't claim that that "King Dubh" was black - maybe they don't know that the Gaelic word "dubh" means black. I'm afraid I regard a lot of these "facts" with a great deal of scepticism. But .. I'll check my history books and report back. Davie | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 273 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 204.108.65.10 |
The Kings of Scotland came from the ancient Scots clans. They needed tthe approval of powerful Scots chieftans first, later "lairds" (Lords)-e.g. the aristocracy, to actually be named King and to rule. I find it difficult to believe that a man of African descent could be chosen and anointed as King, and approved enough to actually rule. There were a lot of Kings in northern Europe who were called "The Black". It usually meant that they were "nasty", always referring to their character, and NOT their skin colour. | ||
Shawn1 (shawn1b) 4-Laureate Username: shawn1b Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.30.14.5 |
RUBBISH!Our music comes from our homeland mother Africa !The Words may have come from whites but that about it !Shawn | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.2 |
Dave, After referring to a lot of books, about 30 actually, I can't find one shred of evidence to say that Kenneth III was black. God knows where they came up with the name "Kenneth the Niger" - he was Celtic as were his predecessor kings. His genealogy as quoted in that site is correct but I can't figure out how they managed to arrive at the conclusion that he was of African origin. The system of appointing Celtic kings was that the king could nominate his successor but the the next king was chosen from a group of people whose great-grandfather had been a king. That's why kings were sometimes succeeded by their brothers, not by their sons. There's also the fact that "Niger" is Latin not Celtic - as most European schoolboys know the Romans never conquered Scotland. I can find no history of Scotland that refers to him as "Kenneth the Niger". Very curious. Davie | ||
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau) 3-Pundit Username: sudi_kamau Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.117.198.35 |
Virtually no aspect of black culture in the U.S. is completely untouched by European culture. It would be silly to think that black church practice would not be influenced by one European culture or another. Has anyone noticed the preponderance of plagal and authentic cadences in use in black churches and even in commercial Gospel music? They and the Western tonal scale that we use came no more from Africa than the English in which we sing. If Scottland happens to be an important source of European influence, so be it. But it's just as silly to pretend that Gospel music (which really only dates in it's commonly known form back to the early 20th Century) and its precursors owe their form and substance entirely, or even primarily to a European platform. That's like saying Jazz is of French or Spanish origin because Storyville musicians were influenced by quadrilles and flamenco music via Creole culture. Blacks have had to reconstitute a culture after being physically displaced, ethnically shuffled and admixed, and culturally suppressed. We have done so using a lot of European materials, but according to a framework that has been African to the extent that we have been able to retain cultural memory. Without that African framework, Gospel wouldn't be Gospel, it would be Scottish hymnody as practiced by blacks. I think that Gospel is different enough from Scottish hymnody to make this apparent. As for the presence of Scottish references in the Ku Klux Klan, it might be worthwhile to investigate the alleged roots of the second incarnation of the Klan in particular in Scottish Rite Freemasonry, via the pro-Confederate Knights of the Golden Circle. The actual "Scottishness" of the Scottish rite is a somewhat murky issue, but I imagine that the rite has succesfully cribbed quite a bit of symbolism and lore from Scotland, if nothing else. Some people also tie the Knights of the Golden Circle, founded by George W.L. Bickley in Cincinnati in 1854, to Skull & Bones, founded in 1832 by William H. Russell, Alphonso Taft and others at Yale, where Professor Ruff works. Scottish Rite icon Albert Pike is cited to much debate as the common link between all these nefarious groups. I suspect that Professor Ruff is partly motivated to overstate the Scottish-origins case by a desire to please his masters there in the land of Skull & Bones. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 193.122.21.26 |
Sudi, personally I'm not convinced that Scottish influences had a great deal of influence on the development of gospel - I tend to think that it was a conveniently intriguing journalistic "hook" to publicise his theories and lecture tour. Maybe that's a bit harsh but I thinks that suspicion's unavoidable. I don't know a great deal about the Ku Klux Klan - I find their philosophy repellant and had little interest in trying to find out more. I've read quite a few reputable books on the slave trade and always had the impression that there were few plantation owners of Scots origin - I'm not saying this in any way as an apologist for any that were involved. It's just that in my readings most of the names of plantation owners were more English than Scottish. There's also an interesting piece of info. I've just come across relating to the failed Jacobite rebellion of 1745 when Scottish Gaelic-speaking Highlanders backed Bonnie Prince Charlie's attempt to regain the throne of the UK for the Stewart dynasty. The outcome of the failure of the rebellion was a century-long policy of deliberately wiping out Gaelic culture by means of forcible removal of Gaelic-speakers from farms and homes where they'd lived for centuries. Thousands emigrated, in the main to Canada but some must've ended up in the US. The piece of info I was referring to was that of the over 3600 Highlanders taken prisoner after the Battle of Culloden hundreds were executed (by hanging, drawing and quartering) and over nine hundred were deported to the West Indies to be sold as slaves. Could it be these Gaelic-speakers that Ruff refers to - it seems more likely than Gaelic-speakers being slave-owners. Gaels were, for the most part, subsistence farmers or fishermen - hardly the type to have the financial means to set up as plantation owners. There's also the aspect that up until the Union of the parliaments in 1707 when Scotland and England were united as one political unit Scots shipping in US territorial waters were treated as enemies by the colonial government. Sorry if this getting too far away from the topic of the roots of gospel - it's just I find this intriguing and will have to see if I can find out any more. Davie | ||
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau) 4-Laureate Username: sudi_kamau Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.117.198.35 |
Interesting, Davie. One thing is for sure: Scotland has given us Scotch, and that's a good thing. | ||
BankHouseDave (bankhousedave) 3-Pundit Username: bankhousedave Post Number: 45 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.93.33.10 |
Curious as you say, Davie. Maybe he was descended from the furious Formorians, who came from Africa and ruled over Ireland before the Celts arrived.... | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 322 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.197.220 |
Sure! That makes perfect sense! His ancestor came across The North Channel of The Irish Sea from Ireland to Kintyre along with The Scots! | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 4-Laureate Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.5 |
Sudi, Scotland also gave you SoulfulDetroit ! Lowell from Detroit gives us the benefit of both his technical and artistic talents but the germ of this site was from Glasgow. Dave, I'll have to own up to never having heard of the furious Formorians - I take it Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy was one of their direct descendants ? :-) If you'd like another figment of somebody's imagination the "real" origin of the Scots is that we're all descended from some daughter of Pharoah Ramases II who brought the biblical chunk of stone known as "Jacob's Ladder" to Ireland then to Scotland where it eventually became the Stone of Destinys. The only thing that's certain, to use an old Scots saying, is that "We're all Jock Thomson's Bairns" Translation for non-Scots : "We're All God's Children" Davie | ||
Lynn Bruce (lynn_bruce) 3-Pundit Username: lynn_bruce Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.41.119.244 |
Another fact: There are more United States presidents of Scottish blood than any other nationality. I know that a keg of single malt scotch will get my vote. p.s. Make that three kegs if he or she is a republican!! | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 489 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.62.135 |
 | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1252 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Fellas, This is very interesting & informative reading. This is like going to school, this is some deep info here. Thanks for the insight fellas, this is good conversation, great!!! | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 328 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.201.217 |
Are you allowed to use "Jock Thomson's" name IN VAIN??? | ||
Bob Olhsson (bob_olhsson) 1-Arriviste Username: bob_olhsson Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 209.247.222.110 |
"how can one explain that there is no gospel singing in the french carribean." There were few or no poor whites in the French Caribbean. Poor whites had no musical training other than from black music teachers whose education (or parents' education) had been financed by slave owners. It was an amazing musical synthesis of West African and European folk music that happened within the context of a common social class rather than race. |
