| Author |
Message |
 
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 201
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:33 pm: �� |     ���  |
OK gang. Here it is. Have at it!!! Just don't jump on the furniture!!! Oh great...now I have to figure out how to correct the incorrect title... |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 152
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:40 pm: �� | ��� |
I think you can delete the thread since you started it. |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 202
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:44 pm: �� | ��� |
OK Sis, I got it. Now I need to correct the spelling of the new thread. |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 203
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:45 pm: �� | ��� |
I started a new thread Juice. The other was too long. You can still click on to the old one at the top of this thread. |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 204
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:47 pm: �� | ��� |
What the Hell happened to Juice??? |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 826
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:49 pm: �� | ��� |
I only hope that all who post here are interested in having dialogue, not drive by postings, or, getting upset regarding anyones choice of topic. If a individual is not interested in dialog, it would be prudent for them to simply refrain from posting, or come up with their own fresh thought. Just an idea! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 827
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:51 pm: �� | ��� |
Ralph, I deleted my post, as I refreshed the forum, the situation became clear. Sometimes my browser lags a bit behind! I'm still here! |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 205
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:57 pm: �� | ��� |
OK...I'm back and everything is corrected and in working order. Like getting used to a new car behind the scenes. Juice..glad you're back. I thought I somehow zapped you son. I would never forgive myself. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 829
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:10 pm: �� | ��� |
Nah Ralph, everything's cool. Thanks for not zapping me. I might have ended up in the the sequel to "The Lost Order Discussion" thread 
By the way, what happened to R&B anyway???? Is he still there??? |
Stonewall (stonewall)
5-Doyen
Username: stonewall
Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.237.94.114
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:21 pm: �� | ��� |
A Message to ALL of the S.D.F. "Soap Boxers":
I've never been to "The Soap Box" before and, trust me, I have intentions of returning. I heard a bit about "S.B. #1". Notice: This is a "drive-by-posting" (what a clever term, "J", very witty, I luv it). I'm only here to say that to instill a tad more comaraderie on the SDF Board, please activate your e-mail addresses with your name so that if someone wants to communicate with U privately or relate something that is inappropriate for the public board, they have the opportunity to do so. U may be very glad that U did!
Please join Soulaholic, Dyva Naye, Soul Brother, Ralph and Stonewall ("SDSRS"), who already have activated their e-mail linx. In fact, that's how U got in touch with me via e-mail on the "SDF Classic Forum", right Juice? So, U all can go to: "Edit Profile" and simply remove the mark from "delete e-mail". Then, U all can get back on your soap boxes. U'll find me in one of the SDF music divisions periodically!
|
Sue (sue)
3-Pundit
Username: sue
Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:46 pm: �� | ��� |
Reading back over the postings from this evening, I'm not sure why anybody's mad.
It bothers me tremendously that G.W. Bush talks of nothing but God and prayer and religion. I find it offensive. I feel that, if he really had sincere beliefs, he wouldn't carry them on his sleeve like that.
Plus he inserts religion where it doesn't belong. And there are many aspects of life, like science and medicine, where religion is holding us back. The day that I agree with Nancy Reagan -- whew -- but she's absolutely right about stem cell research.
It's medieval, the way the Bush Administration has forbidden the use of stem cells, all in the name of his conservative religion. I don't want him thumping his Bible over me or the health of my loved ones. |
Sue (sue)
3-Pundit
Username: sue
Post Number: 69
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:50 pm: �� | ��� |
P.S. Juice -- If a loved one is sick, do you want to use logic and science, in the form of medicine, to heal them, or do you want to just sit and pray?
I have put forth a pleading meditation or two myself in such a situation, but I want logic and science to be applied first. |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 154
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:52 pm: �� | ��� |
What about the Catholic priest who said his members cannot take communion if they vote for a candidate who approves pro-abortion. I believe he wants them to go to confession and admit who they votes for.
GEE WIZ!!! As the Violinaires sung "I Don't Know What This World Is Coming To." |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 832
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:01 am: �� | ��� |
You know what scares me about that Sue. It seems to me that everything that man has created for good, ultimately is used for evil. Think about it. Man originally created spears for hunting prey & for protection against animals. That was good. However, man also realized that if those spears could kill animals, it could also kill other men. Man created guns for the same noble purpose only to be used against other men.
Then there is how stem research would be used, not to mention who would benefit from it. Would it available for all, or, just a select few?? It bothers me a bit when I read reports of scientists cloning animals & threatening to clone humans as well. I can just imagine how this could be perverted by our Govt.
What do you think? |
Sue (sue)
3-Pundit
Username: sue
Post Number: 70
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:12 am: �� | ��� |
But that's the very nature of life, just about anything good we have could be used for evil.
You can hurt someone whacking them with a stalk of broccoli. So what? That's the challenge of being human, we have to always resolve to do better, to do right.
See my thing is, ethics and morals are important. But I don't believe that religion has a monopoly on these things. And people would have you believe that.
If we taught ethics in school, how could anyone object? There would be no religious slant, just an emphasis on doing right by your fellow man, being truthful, etc.
Should we shut down hospitals because not everybody gets the same health care, paid for by health insurance? No, we try to do better, fix the system or chuck it and make a new one.
Similarly, we need stem cell research to find cures for so many diseases. There is no downside to that. The way it is now, nobody benefits.
How can that be good? |
Bless You (bless_you)
2-Debutant
Username: bless_you
Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 66.41.19.9
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:15 am: �� | ��� |
Juice, I actually agree with you on stem cell research. There is the potential for a sort of "Brave New World (Aldous Huxley) type scenario. I just find it sad that you assume it would be OUR government that would use for evil, rather than the corrupt European Union, or a host of others. My opinion. Ultimately, the government should not have a say in this if it does become something used in medicine. If it is kept to a free market approach, then that would bode better than if any government had a hand in it. It is definitely a strange thing to ponder, isn't it? |
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 71
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:21 am: �� | ��� |
Sis,
I absolutely agree, about that Catholic priest who won't give communion to anyone who is pro-choice.
Remember when John F. Kennedy had to promise that the Vatican would have no sway over him should he become president? Back then religion was seen as a more private matter. It would be a bad thing to have a religious leader wielding power over a politician.
Yet now we have Bush inserting his religion into every aspect of his presidency. |
Bless You (bless_you)
2-Debutant
Username: bless_you
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 66.41.19.9
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:25 am: �� | ��� |
Sue, your concern is valid, but again, why are you more concerned about Bush's religious posturing than that of Al Qaeda???? Honest question! Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, but I just have to wonder...
|
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 833
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:27 am: �� | ��� |
Hi Sue!
When I spoke of logic & science, I was referring to the many debates regarding evolution & how man "evolved" as opposed to being created by a Supreme Being". I was speaking about all of the great thinkers who try to tell us that we evolved from apes, even though apes still exist. That fact would seem to be a argument against evolution, if we actually evolved from apes, they should be extinct.
My point was that man is arrogant to a fault. Some actually think that they're doing these wonderous things by themselves, totally disregarding the idea of a Creator. I would think that if there were no Creator, there'd be no science. It is because of our Creator that we have the knowledge to create so many wonderous things.
In the same vein, as our Creator gave us the ability to do these great things, I'm all for taking advantage of it! I'm not the type of person who would lay bleeding to death, while saying "I don't need a doctor, God will help me." Of course common sense must prevail. However, I do believe that great medicine & great prayer can work wonders. I think that they work hand in hand.
I also believe that everyone has a right to believe as they choose. I've yet to find a religion whose doctrine I've agreed with 100%. I don't believe that any religion can claim to know it all. In fact, I believe that religion tends to create more problems than it solves. There are simply too many sects & as we well know, this leads to much disagreement & strife!
What do you think?? |
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 72
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:32 am: �� | ��� |
Religion definitely causes more problems than it solves. It's tribalism, your God vs. mine, red vs. blue, the farmer vs. the cattleman, you versus me.
When in fact we are all human.
The trouble with religion is, too often the religious person believes his/her way is the ONLY way. When does religious passion become fervor, and then fanaticism?
How can people kill in the name of religion? But it's just an extension of, you MUST believe what I believe.
|
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:35 am: �� | ��� |
As for creationism, Juice... many things are hard for us to fathom as humans, that doesn't mean we should explain them away in a supernatural way.
It could also be that it's something humans just haven't figured out yet. |
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau)
3-Pundit
Username: sudi_kamau
Post Number: 42
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 172.161.12.244
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:35 am: �� | ��� |
Sue,
Of course I generalize. As long as these posts are, it's not like I'm writing a treatise where I have room and time to painstakingly qualify every opinion. Consider that enough Americans fit the bill to have supplied Bush with 60 and 70 percent approval ratings while he perpetrated these crimes. That didn't change until things started going like wiser minds insisted that they would. They still haven't changed enough, and now it's too late.
The same minority of halfway decent Americans votes against the grain in all the polls - skewed though they may be. You seldom see a majority of Americans come out on the side of common decency in these things. |
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:37 am: �� | ��� |
Bush lost the popular vote, and this way pre-9/11, pre-Iraq.
So yes, Americans voted the right way then, and will again. |
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 75
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:39 am: �� | ��� |
If Nader hadn't siphoned 5% of the votes away, Gore would have had a healthier lead and the Supreme Court debacle wouldn't have happened.
You're taking the actions of a minority and applying them to a majority of Americans, that's what I mean by generalizing. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 834
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:58 am: �� | ��� |
I remember a Government that once infected minorities with Syphillis, without their knowledge & without any form of treatment. This same Government, without the subjects knowledge, allowed them to walk around as Typhoid Mary's as it were, to see what would happen. This was the handy work of the USA.
There was a Government who once planted "operatives" in the middle of peaceful demonstrations to incite mayhem, as an excuse to bust some hippies heads. This Govt was the USA & the war was Vietnam. Another just war...hmmm! The old axiom: He who forgets their history is doomed to repeat it is most appropos!
There was a Government that allowed people to be attacked by dogs & sprayed with water hoses, right on the 6:00 news. Why, because the people dreamed of equality & dared to speak up for it. The people who they treated this way were not Nazis, Viet Cong, Iraqis, Iranians, Russians or, Al Quieda. The Govt that allowed this was the USA & the people whom they treated that way were its own citizens.
There was a Govt, who allowed people to be beaten & mistreated, due to their sexual orientation. There was a famous spot here in NYC, where officers, sworm to uphold law & order, beat its own citizens, BECAUSE of their sexual preference. The Govt who allowed this was again, the USA.
All of these deeds were perpetrated, by the Govt of the USA, which was designed to protect its citizens freedom & safety.
I don't think that Bin Laden had a thing to do with those atrocities. That was home grown n the fertile soil of America. That why I would assume that our Govt would do something corrupt. Its history preceeds itself.
If some don't understand these facts...... I'm not going to bother arguing, much less try to convince anyone of the obvious.
(Message edited by juicefree20 on May 15, 2004) |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 835
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:07 am: �� | ��� |
Frankly, knowing what America knew about Reagan & Bush & their fine work during the 80s, I don't see how anyone could believe that those were glory days. I'm not going to cite a laundry list of what they did wrong. Anyone who was around then should know.
Also, knowing what we knew about George Ws past,
I don't know how the election was ever close enough for him to win in the first place. |
GOAT (goat)
3-Pundit
Username: goat
Post Number: 64
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.228.133.120
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:13 am: �� | ��� |
Damn Juicefree! You forgot about the gov't spreading small pox through blankets "given" to Native Americans! The whole reason for doing so was so the less Natives, the more for the gov't.
..and Bush is in Iraq for WMD! LOL. The U.S.A is notorious for using WMD's. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 836
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:17 am: �� | ��� |
Given the relatively few examples that I cited above, I find it interesting that there are still those who think that our Govt is pure. I find that absolute power corrupts. Our leaders are drunk with the elixir of the Gods....Power. They're no better than any one else. As though Europe, Japan, or anyone else is to blame for how the USA treats its own citizens with contempt.
Trust me, someone's probably keeping a dossier of the net & one day, using the Patriot Law, may severely clamp down on our right to have discussions like this. When the other shoe drops, we'll see how wonderful everyone will think things are then. We'll see! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 837
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:20 am: �� | ��� |
Amen to that GOAT! |
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau)
3-Pundit
Username: sudi_kamau
Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 172.161.12.244
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:44 am: �� | ��� |
Juice, I expect retroactive punishment for threads like this. As totalitarianism asserts itself more fully, the standard operating procedure is to scour the actions and statements of the past looking for people who don't shape up as happy campers. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 840
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:47 am: �� | ��� |
Now here's something very eerie. In todays Post, there's an article about how an accused operative of Al Qaeda, got Nick Bergs' e-mail password in 2000, while they were in school in Oklahoma.
It seems as though Berg gave his password to another student, who passed it along to the 911 operative.
We all know what happened this week. Now, that's ironic as hell. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 843
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:59 am: �� | ��� |
Sudi, now that would be patently un-American, wouldn't it? ASounds like the mark of the beast to me. ccording to some of our more informed drive by type folks, our Govt is simply incapable of such actions. How dare you be so hateful
Now that I read certain things & think about it, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we had a plant amongst us already. I don't know why, but some folks make me a bit suspicious. Wanna know something else, I don't trust them, how about you?
(Message edited by juicefree20 on May 15, 2004)
(Message edited by juicefree20 on May 15, 2004) |
Soulaholic (soulaholic)
4-Laureate
Username: soulaholic
Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.41.40.105
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 7:32 am: �� | ��� |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL:
Are you so self engaged that you believe every post is a response to something you stated???
Please, ask a question of an individual before you decide that degrading them verbally is your best retort!
I have now read your diatribe on the beliefs of others and based on your predisposition of ignoring viewpoints of others. I can only conclude in my opinion that the correct quote I would have posted if I was responding to your thread would have been �Ignorance is Bliss�. For when an individuals deliberations are focused on the quest of self-actualization and fulfillment by the means of derogating an others viewpoint, then that individual has lost the capacity to maintain control over their ability to interact with decorum and intelligence.
To quote you GGGG:
"it takes a rude and slithering type of individual to throw out snide remarks without any reasoning behind them."
"And futhermore Soulaholic - you appear to be such a leech/coward that you don't post to All"
Does this seem to be indictative of the type of behavior you are complaining about"
So to paraphrase the response that the lord gave to the crowd that wanted to cast the stones - Neither do I condemn thee: go and post to responses correctly.
|
zaya (isaiah)
2-Debutant
Username: isaiah
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 7:34 am: �� | ��� |
Susan Whitehall, it was a religious decree that sanctioned the enslavement of millions of Africans, who brought their religions here to the so-called "new world", making it possible for the creation of samba, salsa, and soul(smile!)
And wouldn't'cha know it, all three of these national popular musics have, as their kernel and core essence, religious inspiration... In fact, not one of them would exist without it, so religion is inextricably bound to what has become the politics of our world... The 4/4 rhythm used extensively in R&B and Jazz, or African American music, has it's roots in the Obatala rhythms of the Yoruba... As a drummer, I'm sure Sudi can expound more on that, but my point is, this music discussed on this board has a religious base and core, therefore, to suggest it should not be a part of the discussion because of Bush's and others misapprehension of what religion is about, flies bluntly into the face of what I understand religion to be about... Religion is a way of life, a way of living, not necessarily connected to a central God figure...
I am not a man who subscribes to any particular religion - even the African religions... But I respect people's right to worship whatever God they choose, and without recrimmination... We can discuss their religion ad nauseum, as long as they aren't proselytizing me... The reason Bush's religion comes off as a disgusting ruse is because the man doesn't believe a word he's saying... His true religion is the accruing of dollar dollar bills, y'all - just like his daddy... He's a fool who fools none so blind as himself... His so-called church-based initiatives are for the true believers, who believe in the same things he believes in: making money hand over fist without having to work for it... And he, nor they, represent the true spirit of religion...
Again, those who deign discussions of religious philosophy to the periphery of a political discussion are telling me that they are just b.s.ing me about loving Dr. King, a clergymen who used his religious principles to lead and mobilize as Jesus and Ghandi had done... There are other numerous examples, such as the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth, who without his practice of the radical social gospel down in Birmingham, Alabama, we'd still be drinking out of white and colored water fountains... This is a fact, Susan Whitehall... You can expound all you like on logic, reasoning, science, and politics, but none of that prevailed down in Alabama and Mississippi 35 or 40 years ago... Politics stood in the way of people's freedom much as Bush's does today... I tell you, I'd much rather discuss religion, and how it can be utilized to bring about some change in this world, rather than completely negating it from my discussions...
Peace!
Isaiah |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.80.109
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 10:27 am: �� | ��� |
Morning All,
Soulaholic you wrote:
"I have now read your diatribe on the beliefs of others and based on your predisposition of ignoring viewpoints of others. I can only conclude in my opinion that the correct quote I would have posted if I was responding to your thread would have been �Ignorance is Bliss�. For when an individuals deliberations are focused on the quest of self-actualization and fulfillment by the means of derogating an others viewpoint, then that individual has lost the capacity to maintain control over their ability to interact with decorum and intelligence."
Naturally, I thought that what you posted twice after my first post on 5-14-04 - was in direct response to what I'd posted - and I'm sure some saw it the same way.
When I first posted - I started by saying that I was going to take a different angle on "What's Going On", in the world - America, etc.. I never responded to what anyone else had written. I was offereing up my own take, and I wanted to go in another direction. That is my right.
I responded to what Sue wrote about religion being brought up in this thread - because there again - I felt she was responding to what I had written.
Your two responses were:
"To the ignorant even the words of the wise seem foolishness" - Euripides
Sue:
"All I can say to that is Amen before this becomes a filibuster!"
Now to me - both of your comments were concerning my first post on yesterday. I asked you to speak directly to me if you had an issue(s) with anything I wrote - because you should have the decency to do so. And if you would have elaborated more - may haps we all would have understood for sure - who you were directing your response to.
And no I am not so self indulgent as you call it. Are you? Remember - you cracked on something I wrote. I never cracked on anything anyone else wrote until you - Soulaholic.
I still stand by everything I said to you because IMO - you were hitting and running - by making snide remarks on something that I posted and evidently believe in. If I am a fool for believing like I do - I don't need you to hip me on about that. God will hip me on about any of my foolish or non-foolish beliefs.
We all have the right to believe like we wish to believe - so instead of you trying to alert the entire board on how foolish I sounded - you should have related to me that you felt I sounded foolish. That is the respectful thing to do - and not go around "hitting and running", like a snake does, because in essence what you're doing is calling me out - cracking on my intelligence - my beliefs and my identity.
You don't even have the decency to accept that evidently that is how I truly feel about things - and that I have the right to feel thus.
Where have I tried to get anyone to think like me? Where have I belittled someone for his or her beliefs? And - other than how you communicated your so-called "viewpoints", can you point out in any of my posts where I belittled another for theirs. You can't, because I play fair. What are you talking about w/that BS - anyway?
Some people know themselves and their own minds. They can feel whether there is a chance or not that they would be willing to change their minds about something or lean a different way. We all make up our our minds. I am not a leader or a follower. I think for and by myself, but I am willing to keep an open mind always - other than about my God.
Lastly - I still say that our days on this earth - and living with our so-called freedoms are in a decline. God is my religion. He is "All I Need To Get By." "Can I Get A Witness?" I'm sure some know what I'm talkin' 'bout.
Matter-of-fact - take the word religion and throw it out for all I care. What did God call "it", and whatever "it" stands for? Who knows? All I know is that I believe in God and I am truly blessed by Him. He gets all my praise, and man gets no true praise from me. He gets credit.
|
Soulaholic (soulaholic)
4-Laureate
Username: soulaholic
Post Number: 150
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.41.40.105
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 10:45 am: �� | ��� |
Good Morning GO_GET_GONE_GIRL:
Once again I did not respond to you post. I was responding to a post that had started over on the American Idol thread that had turned into a geopolitical discussion. That had been asked to move over to the soapbox thread.
The post I made was not directed at you no matter how much you believe it fits your topic.
The truth is I skip post about religion.
I was not posting to you and do not want to make comments on anyones religious beliefs.
I am sorry if you felt it offended you some how the intention was never there. It was a comment once again to another post!!!!!
Ralph this just demonstrates how confusion and misunderstandings can quickly occur when subjects about politics and religion are the focus of a thread.
|
GOAT (goat)
3-Pundit
Username: goat
Post Number: 65
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.228.129.141
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 10:55 am: �� | ��� |
Here's a question. After reading GGGG's remark to Soulaholic, why is it that many "americans" think that the world is the U.S.A.?
Taken from GGGG's post: (Not jumping on you GGGG )
"When I first posted - I started by saying that I was going to take a different angle on "What's Going On", in the world - America, etc.."
Remember folks, the planet is made up of many people with many different viewpoints on what is going on around them. Respect how they view things, and understand where they are coming from.
I find it sad that many (no not all) "americans" cannot view the world through other peoples eyes.
But the question remains. Why? |
zaya (isaiah)
2-Debutant
Username: isaiah
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 11:10 am: �� | ��� |
GoGoGirl, how you doing, ma???(SMILE!)
Rectify if I'm wrong, but in Soulaholic's defense, I believe his comments to be a carryover from some of his very powerful and eye-opening comments on the American Idol, Shame, Shame, Shame thread started by Vonnie... I don't know what has gone down since that time on the original Soapbox thread, but immediately upon seeing his Euripides quote, I knew it was related to what HE had previously written in that thread... In other words, there are some folks who believe that no matter what corroborating evidence to the effect that Bush or other Government officials are corrupt ne'er-do-wells, they will ever follow the party line... I hope this will clear things up for you and he, and nip any future problems between you and he, in the bud...
Peace!
Isaiah |
Soulaholic (soulaholic)
4-Laureate
Username: soulaholic
Post Number: 151
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.41.40.105
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 11:15 am: �� | ��� |
Thank-You Zaya:
Isaiah, if you do not mine I would like to call you Izzy just every now in then. Your words remind me of a very close and dearly departed friend form my youth who name was Isaiah.
There now I have done it and it's over, thanks for the indulgence and clarification on the matter and R.I.P. Izzy.
|
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 11:33 am: �� | ��� |
Hope everybody is cool and un-mad today ...
I agree with Soulaholic, I think it's best not to comment on someone's religious beliefs. For me it's just intensely personal, so I extend that to everybody else. |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.80.109
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 11:46 am: �� | ��� |
All,
Goat - again - if what I posted made you think of what you've now commented on - initially - in my post - I stated - the world - America - etc.. I also talked about man from all over the world. I stated that IMO - man from all over the world has erred and sinned - and that they will all have hell to pay. Please go back and read my post. You must have me mixed up with someone else - because I never stated anywhere in my posts that others from different parts of the world - did not have the right to discuss their viewpoints - and/or perceptions.
I am a big fan of folks speaking on their own perspectives. That is how we share. And thank you for stating that you weren't getting on me - but you did mention my name.
Hey zaya. Again - we all have the right to our opinions. So - you can't convince me that Soulaholic was not directing his comments to something I posted - for you see how he has responded back. He even stated that I am not of the ilk to letting others have their viewpoints.
IMO - if he was speaking about something from another thread - then Referencing that thread could have been the thing to do.
You can't convince me that he had not taken issue w/me - because he hurried up with the quickness to give props to Sue for commenting on the fact that I brought religion to this thread - and may haps shouldn't have. Read his second post once again. Now that leads me to believe that both of his posts were directed to that long "essay", as Sis called it, that I wrote - and evidently what it contained, i.e., Religion. And I never mentioned the word. Never mind the fact that Ralph never stated that religion was not allowed to be of discourse on this thread.
To me, mentioning the fact that I brought so-called religion up and shouldn't have - was an insult to me - because it inferred that I was out of order. I took issue with it and addressed it straight away. There is NOONE on this board that can speak for me - and stand up for me - so I handled it myself. Again - it was directed at something I wrote - so of course - it was up to me to respond for myself. Neither parties still - have to agree.
And in this - is why I suggested that if a person is of the mind to making a one sentence remark - and without elaborating - then said person could perhaps make it clear - to whom or what they are Referencing.
zaya - I don't need you - and you know I love you - to try and reconcile whatever differences Soulaholic and I might have. He does not need me - nor do I need him. Shall I say again - whom I need?
He and I don't have to agree - or agree to disagree. All we have to do in the fufu - it would seem to me - is to give each other our own individual space. Space = the right to our own opinions.
Again - look at the TIME of my first post on yesterday - and look around on the thread for the things Soulaholic had written pre and post - my post. Your theory does not add up to me, because of the TIMING. Timing is everything, in some instances. But thank you for trying.
Soulaholic - let's just go our separate ways. Of course - I apologize if I have it all wrong - but.............
(Message edited by gogogirl on May 15, 2004) |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 52
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.80.109
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:20 pm: �� | ��� |
All,
And until Ralph forbids it - I will still bring up God - iffin I want to.
How many times must it be pointed out - that Ralph stated months ago that he was of the mind - that on this board - race - religion and politics could be discussed?
Okay - so what does that mean? Does it mean that if a person wants to discuss religion - they shouldn't - even though he has okayed it.
Yesterday - religion should not have been brought up on this thread - so a new thread should have been started. Today - religion shouldn't be brought up at all. Now how does that sound - seeing that race - religion and politics in many instances - go hand in hand?
Race - religion and politics could be very personal to whomever - so where is the problem? Could the problem lie in the fact that some are super sensitive about it or what? Do some get offensive when it is being discussed?
Which one out of the three has the potential of upsetting some to the point that they get upset in the first place? ALL of them - I'd say - and that is why I suggested months ago how touchy these subjects could be.
And btw - I was not the first - nor as it appears to be today - will I be the last - to suggest such a thing.
The bottom line is - none of these subjects can always be discussed without bringing more than one of them up in any given conversation. So they are and will always be touchy, indeed. All of them.
|
Soulaholic (soulaholic)
4-Laureate
Username: soulaholic
Post Number: 153
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.41.40.105
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:31 pm: �� | ��� |
Dear GGGG:
Your apology is accepted.
As far as the time it was an hour and some twenty minutes after your post that I posted in after discovering that the thread had been expanded to two sections. Then I agreed with Sue that if this thread was to become religious in topic it sould be a seperate thread. That was all. Nothing about Sue saying you should not bring religion into the thread.
I believe you are reading to much into it.
The topic I was discussing was on an other thread then it changed over to the original of this one and then this broke into a two part one. So as far as the timeline and the multiple topics on several threads have lead to the confusion.
GGGG: go in peace and no buts...
|
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 157
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:37 pm: �� | ��� |
Race, nationality, religion, and politics are intertwined. These things are intertwined in the media on a daily basis.
GoGoGirl's affirmations on her religious beliefs are no different than someone's affirmation on political party affiliation, or racial pride affirmations.
I don't think she was doggin anyone else's religion.
I am truly learning, or at least thinking on other's points of view, and it is very enlighting to me.
All of these minds, working together, can be rewarding in a sense if we would not finger point, throw stones, and psycho-analize someone else's brain.
(Just don't mess with Druffin, Al Bryant, or Detroit.)
(Message edited by sis on May 15, 2004) |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 158
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:40 pm: �� | ��� |
Wars and rumours of wars are the results of race, nationality, religion, and politics, and power. |
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 77
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.34.51.20
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:44 pm: �� | ��� |
GG,
This thread is open to all discussion, according to Ralph's rules. I just suggested that religion be a separate topic, it's fine for everybody, or somebody (or nobody) to disagree with me. I don't make the rules here -- or anywhere for that matter!
It seems to me to make sticky conversations even stickier, but I agree that these things are so interwoven that it's hard sometimes to separate them out. |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 159
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 1:36 pm: �� | ��� |
Will someone please explain to me, what has Bush done recently, and why, which would cause Cuba to protest as it is doing? |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 160
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 2:18 pm: �� | ��� |
Can you believe they showed the complete Berg video to a high school class? |
GOAT (goat)
3-Pundit
Username: goat
Post Number: 66
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.228.128.236
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 6:17 pm: �� | ��� |
Sad. I think our children see too much as it is today. In the information age we must shield our children from the hatred and blatant graphic violence shown on t.v. Especially the news.
They will learn what the world is about in their own time. No need to make them grow up any faster than they should. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 851
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 7:02 pm: �� | ��� |
Isaiah, good to see you here boss!!
Listen, when Ralph started this thread, it was with the idea that within reason, anything goes. We can't censor topics that folks feel uncomfortable with. Each of us have opinions that we feel passionately about. If we start censoring thoughts on religion, what's next???
Just consider this forum, as an example. We have folks here who are passionate about their favorite singers & groups. Honestly, think of how many donnybrooks have occurred over threads relating to: The Supremes, Diana Ross, The FLOS, Martha Reeves, The Vandellas, The Stylistics, The Temptations, Otis Williams, et.al. Folks have cursed one another out & been ready to fight about things as innocent as this.
So, are we now to say that I can't give an opinion about The Supremes or The Temptations, because it's such a sensitive topic & someone may get mad??? Of course not. Now, these are very serious issues to some & they feel STRONGLY about it. Are we to give more weight to singers & music, than we should to The Creator of life??? It's ok to speak about things that won't anger folks, as for things that may anger people, we shouldn't discus those things, is that what I'm hearing?
Some of us talk the good talk & when it suits our purposes, we refer to all of the great quotations. How many times have we heard or said things such as: "live & let live", "to each his own" or "it takes all kinds to make the world"???? Some of pat ourselves on the back, as we have proven through the use of quotations just how forward thinking, open-minded & fair we are.
However, once someone voices opinions contrary to ours, or beliefs contrary to ours, we get bent out of shape. Suddenly, none of those marvelous quotations matter anymore, as, it is OUR beliefs & opinions that are now called into question. Suddenly, some of us are not as open-minded anymore, we're now defensive. As a result, some of us can only deal with the challenge by lashing out angrily. Now, some of us are offended, how dare anyone challenge our thoughts? That's not fairness, that's arrogance. In essence, what is implied is the unspoken idea: "I'm right, you don't know what you're talking about."
That's the same type of mentality that causes murders, mayhem, wars & divorces. It's not the discussion of these differences that create the problem. In fact, if more people were open to fair discourse & were open to understanding a viewpoint other than their own, perhaps we'd have more harmony.
I would offer the opinion that it is mans' desire to cling to his comfortable beliefs, customs & opinions, that is to blame for many of societies ills. Some people simply want to believe what they want to believe & don't want anyone to question it. There are some people who would argue if you told them that a cow has udders. Some folks live to be contrary.
Consider just how different the world would be, if man hadn't questioned popular beliefs & conventions. We wouldn't be able to fly coast to coast, much less fly at all, if not for men who dared to question & think out of the box. We wouldn't have phones, much less cell phones, if not for man daring to challenge common conventions (hell, how do you talk to people whom you can't see). If not for man questioning things, we wouldn't have radio (imagine, people singing in a little box), tv (imagine watching people in a little box), electricity & we certainly wouldn't be communicating with one another through computers on the internet. Communicating, in some cases from thousands of miles away.
As far as this thread is concerned, it would be best approached with the realization that we won't all agree about everything. However, if we simply LISTEN to one another & try to UNDERSTAND where everyone's coming from, we may actually accomplish something. How in the hell can we expect WORLD peace, when we don't even want a open, fair & mutual discussion here? The key word being FAIR!!!
I look at it this way: I'm taking courses at work to be an emergency responder. When I am certified, I may have to respond to situations that may make me more than uncomfortable. However, in life, some discomfort is inevitable. From that uncomfortable situation, I may gain knowledge that will help me in the future. I may actually grow due to that uncomfortable situation.
The topics that are being discussed here may actually edify someone here. Perhaps there is someone who is looking for some answers & a different perspective from that which they currently have. Considering this, whom among us has the right to deprive another, the opportunity to gain something from these discussions? Who among us has the right to decide what is to be discussed, simply because "it makes me uncomfortable"???
An enema is uncomfortable, so is a visit to a proctologist & possibly, a gynocologist. Uncomfortable....perhaps, but sometimes helpful to ones overall health & well-being. So, we can't patently reject things which make us uncomfortable. Doing so can sometimes cost you your life!
Think about it!!
|
Robb_K (robb_k)
5-Doyen
Username: robb_k
Post Number: 221
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.81.28.185
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 7:14 pm: �� | ��� |
Well said, Juice. |
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau)
3-Pundit
Username: sudi_kamau
Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 172.209.141.23
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 8:07 pm: �� | ��� |
Yeah, Juice, well said. Thought-police are the greatest obscenity of all. |
Moe (moe)
4-Laureate
Username: moe
Post Number: 89
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.219.162.219
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 7:52 am: �� | ��� |
Yes, Juice, I agree with you. Although I may not agree with some things said on this Forum, those things will give me the opportunity to see others points of view, and THAT is why I'm here!! Other people's perspective can either enrich my opinion or could very well change it (because I hadn't even thought of it)
20 years ago I was too opinionated to even have an intelligent discussion. Now, I welcome it...
If anyone wants to discuss God, then let's do that; if it is GW Bush, OK. If it's Iraq, that, too. And music. This is the freedom that each & every one of us embraces. |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 212
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 9:15 am: �� | ��� |
Well said Moe. In my opinion, this is the fundamental purpose of the SD forum. |
Sue (sue)
4-Laureate
Username: sue
Post Number: 78
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.83
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 9:16 am: �� | ��� |
What I suggested was a separate thread for religion, not that it not be discussed at all.
If everyone wants the discussion all together, that's the way it should be.
Why not go ahead and discuss religion, instead of endless talking about whether or not you should?
|
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.13.25
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 10:32 am: �� | ��� |
Great Sunday Morning All,
Hey Juice. I meant to holla bacatya on the evolution theory that has been debated for years. My bad - for I was thinking evolution meant that man mysteriously appeared by some molecules floating around in the universe. Of course - for years - I was under the impression that man was made from the earth/dirt, that I'd read in the Bible.
Over twenty years ago - I read up on Man & Apes - and I concluded in my own mind - that man indeed evolved from some type of ape. Again - this is what I've concluded, and it is MY belief.
After all - there are also reports out there that apes evolved from man! Some argue that they lived together amongst themselves for thousands of years - so therefore - they ended up looking alike - and being alike is many ways. What?
"The Bible clearly states, "then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7).
This quote is taken from the Bible.
http://www.wasdarwinright.com/ Earlyman.asp
Website on the subject above.
Now here is my take on it:
There are numerous comparisons that can be made between man and apes. The simple ones are that man and ape are structually - more or less the same. Each have holes in their rears. Each have heads and brains. Each have teeth. Each bleed red blood. Each have history of being hairy creatures. Each have body functions the same. And so on and so on.
What separates man from ape are few. Man has a larger brain. Man can talk. God gave man Knowledge - and the capacity to carry such knowledge and forward thinking out.
How many men on this board - or people we know or have met have hair all over their bodies? Now - how did this happen? Because there really and truly are some hair men out there. Is the fact that some men have a history of having much hair - makes them some form of animal? And if man had been made from dust - then where did the hair come from?
There are tribes in Africa where the men and women have very apelike features, and all men regardless of race favor apes to a certain extent. There is no shame in it - and especially if humans evolved from apes. What can one do about it if it is true?
Again - these are just my thoughts. I find it an intersting debate, indeed. Man is special - but are not that much different than apes. If I was the Creator - would I have even made this so-called special Man with holes in their tails? Would I have given them hair all over their bodies to include their heads? And what is the need to have hair grow underarms - and what not? And so on and so on.
More later - got to go finish breakfast.
(Message edited by gogogirl on May 16, 2004)
(Message edited by gogogirl on May 16, 2004) |
GOAT (goat)
3-Pundit
Username: goat
Post Number: 67
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.228.128.118
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 10:39 am: �� | ��� |
There are tribes in Africa where the men and women have very apelike features, and all men regardless of race favor apes to a certain extent. There is no shame in it - and especially if humans evolved from apes. What can one do about it if it is true?
Talk about a blatant racist remark!! Do they act that way too?
No man did not descend from Apes. Evolution created COUSINS. (IF you believe in evolution)
If we had descended from apes they too would have evolved instead, we are a branch of the primates. |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 60
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.13.25
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 11:36 am: �� | ��� |
All,
Goat - you don't have to believe like me. There are millions of people that believe woman/man evolved from apes. You have every right to believe like you do - just as I have the right to believe like I do.
I don't find the statement I made about some tribes in Africa having apelike features racist - because it has been proven that the HUMAN race began with the African Woman. If some find it racist I apologize - but I believe that since the African woman is the mother of all races - and HUMANS evolved from apes - then naturally - he/she would have kept some features that are similar from whence they came. And let's remember - that millions don't believe that the African Woman is the mother of all races. Some just don't want to buy into that.
Of course - this is all based on the premise that woman/man evolved from apes in the first place. By your last statement - you don't agree with me on that premise. So - we can agree to disagree on it.
I remember being called a ape and monkey by a girl in the eight grade. She told me to go back to Africa. Of course - we fought. Now - if the African woman was the mother of the human race - then IMO and at the point where humans evolved from apes - woman/man would have kept some of the same features. How could they not? I don't mind being evolved from apes if it is true - because - I and we wouldn't be here if it were not for that species/creature.
Even humans can be considered creatures. And in this premise - is where many of the arguments against Darwin's theory come into play. Many humans think they are so above apes and other animals because they can think. They wish to remain lofty in their opinions of their own mortality and intelligence. When God decided to evolve man out of the creature (ape) He knew what He had to do to make them different - and He did it.
Since God made all things created - let's look at this thing from how He and his scientists and angels might view it. We on earth could be viewed as some kind of board game to God. He made us the way He wanted to - and He must have had His reasons for it. We really are little pieces of a puzzle to Him. He in all of His Infinite wisdom - looks down on us humans - and other life on other planets as some kind of game. And before anyone objects to that statement - why wouldn't He? It is His game that He created. The game of life that we humans share - was created for His benefit - and forever reasons He chose to create us.
Now - was there or were there not cave days. Did man at one time walk on all fours? And if so - where were these caves - and why did they walk on all fours?
As far as at what point woman/man started walking upright - and evolved from apes - read up on it. What sounds true to each individual is the key here. Scientists on earth have been arguing about this subject for years. Only God and His scientists have all the answers to "The Game Of Human Life On Earth."
Is there life on other planets? How do they look? Who made them? I mean - we can go on and on.
(Message edited by gogogirl on May 16, 2004) |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 61
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.13.25
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 11:50 am: �� | ��� |
All,
Once on the site from the below link - click on ape - and read all the way down. I find it quite interesting how much DNA is shared by humans and apes, indeed.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/pr/ primate.html |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 62
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.13.25
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 11:53 am: �� | ��� |
All,
Talkin' 'bout primates.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/earl yprimates/first_primates.htm |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 63
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.13.25
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 12:00 pm: �� | ��� |
All,
Lastly. Apes didn't have tails. Perhaps a tell - tail sign?
Some might remember - that at one time and in some books - it was written that blacks/Africans had tails. I think not.
http://natzoo.si.edu/Animals/P rimates/ |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 166
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 12:47 pm: �� | ��� |
Some say we evolved from the water. Recently, a baby was born with fin like legs which were joined together. They said usually when a baby is born with this defect, they usually die. They are going to try and save this baby.
There still are babies born with tails.
Of course we all know that there are people who have hair all over their face and bodies, like wolfman, and there is no cure for that situation.
(Message edited by sis on May 16, 2004)
(Message edited by sis on May 16, 2004) |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.13.25
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 1:17 pm: �� | ��� |
All,
Last one - I promise. It really is a matter of what INDIVIDUALS believes to be true - or sounds true to said individuals. It is still debated and most likely will be - until - the end.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/h umanorigins/ha/primate.html
|
Moe (moe)
4-Laureate
Username: moe
Post Number: 91
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.219.162.219
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 1:45 pm: �� | ��� |
OK Forum members, here's a question for you
What are your thoughts on the legalization of
marijuana??
Your input is gratefully appreciated |
lenny (lennytone)
3-Pundit
Username: lennytone
Post Number: 63
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.241.87.179
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 2:00 pm: �� | ��� |
Hello. I'm going to jump in even at this late juncture. I've read most of the posts, and it's all like a big blur to me, so here's my disclaimer:
Anything I say is my opinion; I'm not personally attacking anyone. I don't necessarily remember who said what. You already know that I'm a Christian; that means I love you all, although I might not agree with you or love what you say and do. In fact, I love you all anyway, religion or not, because you are my soul music sisters and brothers. I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of G-d. I believe that G-d loves us all equally, but He hates sin and we all sin. I am going to spell G-d with the dash from now on out of respect for those people on the list that do this. It's never my intention to force my views on anyone. If I "proselytize" sometimes, it's because the Bible commands Christians to do so. The reason is nothing less than G-d wants you to go to Heaven and not Hell. G-d doesn't send anyone to Hell. We choose to go there by rejecting His Son Jesus Christ as our Messiah. You don't go to Hell for believing in evolution, abortion, flying saucers or voting Republican. You don't go to Hell for adultery or even murder. The Son of Sam is a born-again Christian; I believe that he has repented. G-d will accept all that repent according to Scripture.
Politics: politics is not religion, and is secondary to religion, and yet in today's world the two are inextrically bound. The attack on the WTC (the first one) began WW3 (imho, remember). The world is at war with a powerful enemy even if it doesn't know it yet. The enemy is extremist Islam, as in Wahabbi, Al-Qu'eda, etc. Almost every conflict in the world today is the result of agression by extremist Islam (India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Phillipines, Indonesia, etc., etc.) I believe that this is a result of the literal translation of the Koran. I say this even though I take a literal translation of Bible. The end result of the latter results in love for my fellow human beings (as in 1 Corinthians chapter 13). This doesn't mean I hate Muslims; I believe they are deceived and in need of salvation. I pray for Muslims; I hope everyone gets saved and no one goes to Hell! The 60 or 80 years we spend on this planet are nothing, even if it's mostly suffering, compared to an eternity of suffering in Hell. I don't know how hot Hell is, or if the Devil wears red pajamas. But Hell is eternal separation from G-d. I know that you don't slaughter innocent people and then are rewarded with bevy of virgins. I don't believe that there is sex in Heaven, anyway.
I agree with whoever said that the governments of the world are all screwed up. I agree that in this country there is little difference between Democans and Republicrats. I am voting for Dubya (again) because I believe that his administration is better suited for the war on terrorism. I also believe that he is a Christian and I appreciate having a president that prays on his knees. I'm not rich, I'm totally in debt, I hate big corporations, I hate war, and I hate having to always vote for the "lesser of two evils". I don't need to be reminded of the personal failings of Bush or anyone else. We all have them. You can always pray for our country and for our president, and there's a 50-50 chance he'll be in there for four more years. I prayed for Clinton, although I didn't agree with almost anything he said or did. With all its faults, the USA is still the best country. Someday all of these corrupt governments will be gone and G-d's Kingdom of peace will rule over the Earth. You won't have to "believe" in Christ, you'll see Him and know Him!
Last thing, the Bible tells us who the 144,000 in the book of Revelation are. They are saved Jews, 12,000 from each tribe that go throughout the world and proselytize Christ. There is no limit on the number of people who can be saved and enter Heaven. |
GOAT (goat)
3-Pundit
Username: goat
Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.228.131.235
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 2:03 pm: �� | ��� |
LEGALIZE IT. Too much money is wasted on such a "drug". It has been proven that alchohol is worse for the body and mind than pot is.
It is not addictive as cigarettes. And it certainly is NOT a gateway drug to other harder drug cultures. That is a pure myth. |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 214
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 2:07 pm: �� | ��� |
Moe,
A few years back we voted for the legalization of medical marijuana in California. It was passed into law as it very well should have been.Then the Federal Government stepped in and threatened doctors with the loss of their license to practice medicine if they wrote any prescriptions for marijuana. I couldn't believe this stupid threat. What were they afraid of? Would they turn some poor suffering terminal patient into a drug addict? Would these poor people actually feel a little better and get some appetite back and threaten the world's food supply when they get the " munchies " ? What a bunch of cold hearted bastards! |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 167
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 2:11 pm: �� | ��� |
A male friend of mine, Italian, is a Catholic. He told me, although he is Catholic, he believes hell is here on earth; that we are living in hell now. He said he believes we were put on earth as a punishment for having trangressed against G-d. |
lenny (lennytone)
3-Pundit
Username: lennytone
Post Number: 64
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.241.87.19
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 4:13 pm: �� | ��� |
People believe lots of stuff. Many Catholics believe in "purgatory", a temporary place of suffering. Neither 'hell on earth' or purgatory are supported by Scripture, though. Some interesting stuff about Hell at this website:
http://www.religioustolerance. org/hel_bibl.htm
including the idea that kids in Hell are forced to wear dresses made of fire. |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 169
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 4:41 pm: �� | ��� |
I'm sure Berg thought he was in purgatory when that knife cut into his neck. Those few seconds for him, I'm sure, seemed an eternity. (Not trying to be disrespectful, just being logical.) |
SisDetroit (sis)
4-Laureate
Username: sis
Post Number: 170
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 4:45 pm: �� | ��� |
Ralph - If everyone today, was like the love children of the 60's, perhaps then, the marijuana would be legalized. Clinton will tell you about it. "Sure, Clinton, we know you were waiting to exhale." |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 861
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 1:11 am: �� | ��� |
Hi Moe!!
Even though I don't indulge, I feel that it should be legalized. I don't like smelling it & it bothers me & I'm not crazy about the buzz. I won't be hypocritical about it, as, when I was younger, I did dabble with it for a year or two.
A friend of mine would tie knots in giant hefty bags, loop it around a hanger, placed about 6 feet off the ground. We'd stare at the plastic as the little flames would drop off, into a pan of water (of course)& listen to the "phfft, phfft" sound & bug out.
I also remember looking at the patterns of the Christmas lights flashing & suddenly discovering the profundity of the patterns (OOOH, WOOOOW) & of life in general.
Mostly, I remember feeling waterlogged, feeling every drop of saliva running down my throat & being more than a bit...shall we say, aroused. I think that my girlfriend kinda liked the last effect. I hear everyone rave about Viagra, but, when you're 18 or 19, Viagras couldn't possibly be as powerful as as few pulls However, at 18, you need no extra help, the old energy is more than abundant, know what I mean After awhile, I just felt that it wasn't for me, I didn't like the sensation of having the flu. After awhile, It made me feel like a had the flu & it was just not a good feeling. Never did it since.
The only reason that it hasn't been legalized as of yet, is that our Govt is trying to act "moral". As the devil is dope, they couldn't explain doing so to the Bible belt folks, or the other "moralists". Besides, they'd ruin the wonderful kickbacks, that I'm convinced some are receiving from the illicit drug trade (can you say Oliver North & Iran-Contra scandal???).
Meanwhile, you can drink as much Govt sanctioned alcohol as you want. Of course, this poses no addiction or health risk, as the "dreaded" cannibus plant. No danger or risk at all....except perhaps cirrohosis of the liver, DWI, physical abuse, etc. However, since the Govt derives tax dollars from alcohol, we know that it can't possibly be as dangerous or hazardous to health as marijuana. Our Govt wouldn't possible sanction anything that destructive, WOULD THEY????
We also know that marijuana is far, far deadlier than those relatively "safe" cigarettes. Marijuana is far more addictive & leads to more dangerous & harmful drugs, Right??? Our Govt wouldn't possibly try to benefit from taxes derived from any dangerous product would it??? That would be blood money & as our Govt cares about us, they wouldn't possibly take money from such an enterprise, would they?? That would mean that marijuana has to be worse than a product known for causing cancer, emphysema, heart disease & things as such. It has to be because our Govt won't legalize this addictive, health-threatening & insidious drug.
We should thank them for not legalizing such a dangerous drug. After all, do you really want to walk around with a terminal case of the munchies, a stupid grin on your face, for no reason whatsoever & be constantly horny???? Naw... you don't want that & neither does our friendly & caring Govt. They can sanction that, much less condone it.
However, they seem not to mind you getting emphysema, cancer, heart disease, cirrohosis of the liver, or possibly killing yourself, or, someone else, while driving under the influence. And just to show you how much they care, they'll tax you double for the pleasure of indulging in these Govt approved & Govt taxed, "LESS HARMFUL" drugs!
See how much they care for us???????
SARCASM DEFINITELY INTENDED!!!
Juice |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 862
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 1:29 am: �� | ��� |
Go Go Girl, what's up?
I think that I'll believe Genesis 2:7. As our "friend" Darwin was merely flesh & blood & wasn't mentioned in Genesis, I have to go with GOD's word. If GOD said that we were created, I'll take GOD's Word for 1,000 & the daily double. Since HE didn't say anything about me evolving from an ape, I sure ain't gonna take some guy named Darwin's word for it.
I can't serve two masters, nor pick & choose what part of GOD's Word I choose to accept. If I'm gonna believe some of it, it behooves me to believe all of it. Otherwise, what would my beliefs be grounded in? In other words, I can't quote GOD in one sentence, then quote someone who was merely a flesh & blood man in the other, whose beliefs are 180 degrees diametrically opposed to GODs Word.
I strive for consistency. Either I believe & accept what GOD has to say, or I act as my own GOD & accept what suits my purposes & beliefs. Truthfully, there's no fence-straddling & no in-between. You have to choose one or the other. I take that back. We're all free to believe what we want. However, I don't believe that GOD would appreciate it if we were to tell him about evolution, when HE himself has stated that we were created. That would be like someone telling me that the wonderful steak & lobster meal I made was really not steak, it was Spam. Needless to say, I'd be a bit upset about that prospect. I think that GOD would be as well. It's like trying to re-inventing the wheel.
(Message edited by Juicefree20 on May 17, 2004) |
zaya (isaiah)
2-Debutant
Username: isaiah
Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 7:00 am: �� | ��� |
"Politics: politics is not religion, and is secondary to religion, and yet in today's world the two are inextrically bound. The attack on the WTC (the first one) began WW3 (imho, remember). The world is at war with a powerful enemy even if it doesn't know it yet. The enemy is extremist Islam, as in Wahabbi, Al-Qu'eda, etc. Almost every conflict in the world today is the result of agression by extremist Islam (India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Phillipines, Indonesia, etc., etc.)"
Lennytone, we meet again(smile!) I cannot address all of your points in the post up above, as I gots to get to work, but this quote I'd like to deal with first... I think that, again, you are guilty like Stonewall, of parroting the republican conservative brochure...(smile!) To say that every conflict in the world today is the result of Islamist aggression is not only an Orwellian inaccuracy, it doesn't even begin to address all of the many atrocities committed by Christians against their fellow human beings over these past 5 centuries and change...
My take is when the Spanish Queen Isabella got her papal permission to enslave millions of Africans, it was THAT act of aggression that set in motion most of the conflicts that exist in the world today. Not very long after that Christian Pope gave his decree, near 50-million Africans and another 24-million Indigenous people lay dead across the Atlantic, and what became the so-called New World... My terrible arithmetic notwithstanding, I don't think what happened at WTC I or II compares at all to near 75-million slaughtered in a holocaust of European aggression... In fact, I don't even think World Wars I and II, plus Vietnam and Korea combined, compares to the afore-mentioned...
My point, Lenny, is that history, as the late Malcolm X told us, best rewards our research, and history doesn't happen in the vacuum you, and the conservative Christian fundamentalists are trying to dupe people into believing... If, in your mind, you have reached the conclusion you spoke of up above, then, as Malcolm said, you've been had, you been took!!!
Far be it from me to defend Islam, but when I see one group attempting to obfuscate it's own evils by pointing out the evils of another, it compells me to expose that group's evils so that it knows it gots to come better than that... Fact of the matter is, mankind is it's own worst enemy, and needs to stop cuddling up behind the warm blanket of religion... What we have always needed in the United States, is a South African style Truth Commission... That would be the enlightened and spiritually-cleansing thing to do, but we live in a nation that continually pats itself on the back for having been dragged, kicking and screaming, into the world of civilized nations... As the world's only remaining Super Power, the United States has the opportunity to be a positive example of peace and prosperity to the rest of the world, but because of its ignorant population and rapacious, money-grubbing, and power-hungry leadership, it is not concerned with such lofty goals...
Instead, we've got conservative christian fundamentalists leading the charge... My question to you, and those who think like you, Lennytone, is what are y'all trying to conserve??? Is it the same old slavery, suffering, and death, only migrated to other countries on the globe??? I only wish your president would get on his knees, and repent the fact that he signed off on the killings of 150 prisoners on death row in his state, and the countless maimed, broken, and dead bodies he and his administration are responsible for to date... I think it is absolutely an act of incredible hypocrisy for you, a follower of the so-called "prince of peace", to support a rapacious coward, who ran from his own military obligations...(smile!) How you gonna justify that, LennyTone??? Be back later to address more of your post...
Peace!
Isaiah |
Edgar (edgar)
2-Debutant
Username: edgar
Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 200.46.13.186
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 9:45 am: �� | ��� |
I had a strange (but good) feeling as I read the posts in this thread: I visualized people talking softly, almost whispering, with conviction. How I wish most forums were like this one...
As I do not live in the United States and I am not informed about what goes on there -a simplistic way, I must admit, to refer to a vast land with so many cultures- could somebody tell me his/her ideas about something that I was told recently and left me wondering: that not even the 50% of the US population votes. Is this true? If it's true, can we talk about real democracy in a situation like this? I mean, it's democratic in practice, but according to the definition of the word, is it really if the majority does not vote?
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GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 65
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.158.248.191
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 9:46 am: �� | ��� |
Morning All,
I hear 'ya Juice. I quoted the Bible because for years - I believed that scripture - and I wanted to give the other point of view. I certainly was not trying to get anyone to believe like me.
MAN wrote the Bible. There is much written there that many folks more super intelligent than I - disagree with.
And of course - you and I can say that we believe in God - but whose words - that man wrote - are we to believe? In other words - how do we know what words God ascribed to - and which ones are true? It really is a simple question.
There are sooooooo many interpretations of the Bible - Koran - and other Holy Books - until they won't quit. So - again - and like I've stressed before - I believe what sounds true to me.
Some folks - believe that God is not a MAN - and is just floating around like some kind of mystical figure. And notwithstanding the fact - that He has also been quoted in Holy Books as saying - My Hands and My Feet - so that would lead me to believe that He is A/The Man - and here we are again - if we were to believe what we've read or been taught.
So - the bottom line - it would seem to me to be - is that we believe what sounds true to us. You see - there are millions of folks like you alluded to and I mentioned also - that believe only what they want to believe from whatever Holy Book - they aspire to. Naturally - some folks believe the words of the men - who thru no fault of their own - found themselves scratching their heads at times - trying to interpret what God meant when the Prophets stated - that they were passing down God's words. So IMO - the preachers - ministers and priests have always passed along their interpretations or what they've been taught.
Some folks don't believe this or that having to do with God. Some don't believe Jesus was Christ - and so on and so forth. All - I've expounded on was that - I believed that man evolved from apes. So if you want to interpret that to mean that - I believed some things I was told and read about having to do with what God felt and passed to the Prophets and not all of them - then so be it. Because - I have already exclaimed - that I believe what sounds true to me.
NONE of us have ever talked to God. None of us know if EVERY word attributed to Him is TRUE - IMO. Some most likely have written words attributed to him for political and/or personal reasons. Elijah Muhammed - for instance - claimed that God came to him and informed him about a thing or two. He stated that he was ordered to speak on it - in order to help the black man in America. Some believe that and some don't.
The problem comes into play - in this world - when folks that believe like this or that - try to slam it down someone else's throat.
All I've done and will continue to do - is share in how I might view some things God supposedly related - and/or - what I read about - and try to understand how others might view whatever it is they wish to expound on.
At this point in my life - I thank the ones that taught me about a God/Supreme Being - period. My parents never tried to force feed me things about what God said and meant. They just took me to church - and guided me in a morally correct way - in order for me to grow up knowing that they believed - we had a Creator - and by living up to their standards whilst I lived in their house and under their protective bosoms.
When I turned eighteen - I was free to decide for myself what values I wanted to hold on to. I was free to explore what religion was - and what God meant to me. So see - at that point is when I decided that - I believed soley in my Creator - and not neccesarily in this or that religion. I grew up going to Protestant churches on the military bases and Baptist churches in AL. But now I am just a follower of God. He is my religion.
To this day - I have not read the Bible or Koran in its fullest. Yet - my mother went to church hours before she died - and she would read scriptures each morning before she ventured downstairs. So - I always had the best of both worlds - parents that believed in God - and the choice to believe like I chose.
We are all molded unto whom we become because of our experiences in life - and from what we believe. It is how we interpret those experiences, learnings and beliefs, and how we apply them within our life circles - that is the true test. So again - I believe what sounds true to me.
Lastly - it would seem to me that - whatever one believes - they don't have the right to physically or mentally harm another behind those beliefs. I don't think I have.
(Message edited by gogogirl on May 17, 2004) |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 66
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.158.248.191
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 10:05 am: �� | ��� |
All,
Some sad stuff folks. I had read something about this phenom a couple of months ago.
http://start.earthlink.net/new sarticle?cat=4&aid=Lifestyles0 200405130847
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 869
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 11:16 am: �� | ��� |
Go Go Girl,
I understand where you're coming from & that is why I'm not too crazy about organized religion. It's like the kids game of "My dad's better than yours". It leads to much strife & division. One thing that I will say is that I do believe that one day, very, very soon, we will find out who's right or wrong & may Heaven help us all. I think that most of us have been deceived.
(Message edited by Juicefree20 on May 17, 2004) |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 870
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 11:18 am: �� | ��� |
What's up Isaiah! I'm sorry that you went to work bro. I was looking forward to you finishing up the lesson! |
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau)
3-Pundit
Username: sudi_kamau
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.117.198.35
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 1:19 pm: �� | ��� |
I do not at all embrace Quranic Islam, and I believe firmly that the truth lies in what has become the Bible despite the mass of confusion presented by interpreters, translators and manipulators of the text. But, I am deeply disturbed by those who loudly profess their Christianity, then parrot the party line of their pet element of this world system and chauvinistically embrace wolves in sheep's clothing.
It seems to me that a Christian that is up on his or her game understands that the world is not at war with radical Islam; radical Islam is part of a world system that is at war with God. The fruit of both the religious right in America and radical Islam is hatred, death, destruction, and the discrediting of the religious traditions that each hides behind.
One has to be fairly prejudiced to not see that much of the aggression provoking the conflicts in the world has been carried out AGAINST muslims, proking reactions that are manipulated by radical Islamicists. How can an honest Christian ignore the role of colonial mischief, especially on the part of the British?
How can an honest Christian ignore the history of slaughter and provocation perpetrated by the Zionist State in Palestine from its inception? Even a number of Jews recognize the un-Jewish character of Zionism, although the main-stream media doesn't talk about it much. (See: www.jewsnotzionists.org/Interv iew%20Rabbi%20Beck.htm & www.jewsnotzionists.org/furthe r%20reading.htm )
How can an honest Christian ignore the aggression, manipulation and hypocrisy of the United States? The U.S. imposes and deposes dictators at its convenience, creates "terrorist" organizations like the "Afghan Arabs" that became al-Qaeda to do its bidding, trains and equips death squads for its satrapsies, and unleashes its own weapons of mass destruction on civilian populations. It then uses the results of its own mischief to form pretexts for invasion when more surreptitious means are no longer effective.?
You can't talk about conflict in India and Pakistan without accounting for the historic influence of British colonialism and ongoing post-colonial manipulation by intelligence organizations. You can't talk about conflict in Afghanistan without talking about Western designs on Central Asia, Caspian oil and local opium crops. You probably can't talk about conflict in the Philippines without factoring in the effects of the U.S. campaign against the Philippines in which upwards of a million people were massacred.
If one agrees that the governments of the world are all screwed up, they should be prepared to take a much more critical look at the figures in the government that they support. The war on terrorism looks pretty much like the war on poverty and the war on drugs - a pretext for larceny, manipulation and state terror. Voting for a person based on fitness to conduct this war is like voting for a fox based on his fitness to lead the war against "feline chicken predators." The threat from cats may exist, but the war is designed to mask the more pressing threat presented by the fox and his buddies.
What galls me most is the blind acceptance of Bush as a Christian on nothing more than his say-so. There is nothing to indicate that his profession is more than a political ploy. His contemporaries have described his cavalier attitude and the lack of evidence of true repentance in his supposed conversion. He talks about "God" but seldom about Christ. He has never renounced his membership in the occult Skull & Bones organization, and has instead enjoyed the patronage of bonesmen during his checkered business career.
I'm not automatically a death-penalty opponent, but the relish and indifference to exculpatory evidence with which Bush wielded the death-penalty in Texas is most un-Christian. What capped it for me was his mocking of born-again Christian Karla Faye Tucker's appeal for a stay of execution. Tucker, like the above mentioned David Berkowitz, was a jail-house convert. I'm not necessarilly saying that a truly Christian governor would not have proceeded with her execution, but no true Christian has any excuse for excusing a governor who broadens his Christian philacteries while indulging in such a callous and base mockery of life and death.
For more on the supposedly Christian George Bush, see:
IS GEORGE W. BUSH GENUINELY BORN AGAIN?
www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1398 .cfm
Even a natural feeling of patriotism does not allow a person who truly loves his country to countenance it turning to evil: "Righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to a people." "Envy not the oppressor, and choose thou none of his ways." "Pride goeth before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction. "Vengence is mine saith Yahweh (the Lord), I will repay." Isn't that how it goes? I would expect a true Christian to adhere to these principles in office or forsake the office if it did not allow such. I see the opposite of this kind of character in George Bush - I have to conclude him as being at least as evil as any other president.
Contrary to popular belief, the founding fathers did not set up a Christian nation in the United States. The last nation that I believe a Christian has any business believing that God set up a covenant with was Israel - and that not the Zionist Israel of the present. Christians need to stop equating Americanism with Christianity and understand that "Dominionist" politicians who pose as moder-day Daniels are lying. God is calling his people out from among Babylon, not calling for them to take over its operation.
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GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
3-Pundit
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.158.248.191
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 1:39 pm: �� | ��� |
All,
Hey Juice. Just got back from the store(s). LOL!
And - might I add a "Touche'." And "The Devil Be Busy 24/7." IMO - God and the Devil are present right here on this earth, for real. Wonder if they are present on other planets? Interesting concept, indeed.
Sudi - you make some good points, indeed. But you must understand that before Christianity, there was something else. How long has it been around? And don't some believe - that the blacks in Africa were enslaved with so-called Christians coming to their continent w/the Christian word? How Christian was that?
I still say - that man created religion - and not God. God just sent down His word. Man made up his own religious premises to try to control the masses.
I'll try to find the website - where it expounds on when Christianity was born - and where - believe it or not - a black man started it. Does that fact give it credence? No - never. It is just a word and concept - and especially for the masses that lived over 100 thousand years without it, and up until Jesus was credited with creating it and credited w/being All Mighty God Himself.
All religions are manufactured. Show me a Prophet that put a name to a concept, i.e.,a religion. Remember - MAN wrote all Holy Books having to do w/religion.
And lastly - for the folks that feel strongly about Islam - Buddism - Christianity and Judaism - they have the right to believe strongly in it. None of us know what God feels about any of them. Man translated and put his spin on them all. We have to be careful - not to discount any of them, indeed.
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SisDetroit (sis)
5-Doyen
Username: sis
Post Number: 175
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 2:15 pm: �� | ��� |
I don't think Bush should have attended the 50 year celebration for Brown. His time should have been spent at the "Walter Reed Army Hospital" in Washington, DC consoling those wounded soldiers. I don't think he could bare it though. |
Livonia Ken (livonia_ken)
2-Debutant
Username: livonia_ken
Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 136.2.1.153
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 2:57 pm: �� | ��� |
While I can think of several exceptions to Lenny's blanket indictment of "extremist Islam" being responsible for the major conflicts in the world today, I can think of none more significant than the war in Iraq. While Saddam Hussein is certainly guilty of many things, being an "extreme Islamist" is certainly not one of them.
...And while I'm venting, unless W. is lying (I know, I know, stifle your laughter until I finish here), he has been duped into initiating a war by his own intelligence agencies and was kept in the dark about photographically documented misconduct in the treatment of POWs by his own Secretary of Defense, to whom he subsequently said all of my fellow Americans owe a deep debt of gratitude.
If those are the best "cover stories" that a President of the USA can come up with, imagine how scary the truth must be.
I think the best way to start to improve my country's image in the eyes of the world at this point would be that centerpiece of a functioning democracy: peaceful regime change. See you in November.
Regards,
Independent Voter Ken
(Message edited by Livonia Ken on May 17, 2004) |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 874
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 3:26 pm: �� | ��� |
Sudi, to all those who accept any war-like leaders' word as truth, I refer them to the scripture that says that a tree is known by its fruit.
Go Go Girl: who can say with any degree of certainty what is the right religion. However, if everybody simply followed The 10 Commandments, or even 5 of them, this world would be a better place.
Ken: In todays NY papers, none other than Colin Powell is stating that the CIA misinformed him. As I read the headline, I shook my head & thought to myself: I wonder if this guy even heard of electricity". When did the light bulb come on? When did he have this moment of clarity? How could it have taken him this long to realize that the whole set up was shady from the very beginning, starting with the hanging chads??
Edgar: Most of the populace here simply have lost faith in our leaders to do the right thing. Things have been skewed against the working man for too long. Then, when you have a fiasco like the hanging chad disaster of the last Presidential election, people believe that the fix is in & that one way or another, they're going to get screwed.
|
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
4-Laureate
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 73
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.158.248.191
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 3:54 pm: �� | ��� |
All,
I am glad to soon be getting the heck out of Dodge - if what some predict will soon come to pass. Some believe that the US Government was behind 911. I don't know - but for over a year - I've been reading pieces about a new terrorist attack that will soon be upon us.
Some are stating that it will be in the Washington DC area. On the first link below - check out what this government official states. He is more or less promising that there will be another one - in order to save Bush's re-election. Then martial law will be the rule - and the election will be suspended.
I kid you not - I am scared. And in this is why - I stated that I can't wait to leave the DC area. I'm outta here by 6-20-04. Count on it.
It is really getting kinda hectic. Scary times are in store for all of us, indeed.
Peace and prayers to us all - for we will need them. I would bet anyone that there will be an attack on this country soon - and especially before November. If it will be a biological one - then my God - I only live within 25 minutes of the Capitol. I'm outta here.
And how could it happen - if Bush is the right president to protect us all on American soil?
Juice - I never said which religion was the right one. I said that God was mine.
P.P.S. Again - this is something that I am wondering and worried about. I'm not trying to get anyone to buy into any conspiracy theories. Just passing on some information.
This is all I'll EVER have to say on the subject. Speaking about it again - will then be - repetitive.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/i ssue/040524/whispers/24whisple ad.htm
http://www.whatreallyhappened. com/panicbutton.html
www.whatreallyhappened.com |
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau)
3-Pundit
Username: sudi_kamau
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.117.198.35
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 4:45 pm: �� | ��� |
Ken,
You make good points. I wasn't taking up the argument of the relative merits of Christianty and Islam or any other religion. I was just indicating that one doesn't have to be a radical Muslim or a Muslim at all to object to the idea that radical Islam is the cause of all strife in the world.
I concede that there are myriad arguments about interpretation, translation, pre-Christian traditions and pre-biblical sources. I'm not arguing all that at this time. I'm simply arguing that George Bush doesn't act consistently with the Biblical model of Chrisianity, and people who consider themselves Christians need to take a hard look at their programming if they buy his phony act.
To answer your question, I would say that any examples of people attempting to use the Bible and the label "Christian" as a cloak for malice display patently un-Christian behavior. That goes for imperialists, slavers and criminals of of all stripes. I'm sure the bulk of Muslims will tell you the same thing about Islam. Of course, critics will in both cases cite passages in the Bible or Quran that they claim support the idea that the respective religion sanctions the vicious behavior of some of its followers.
I'm not arguing against the critics though. I'm arguing against the folly of adherents who aid straw-man arguments against their entire religion by embracing wolves in sheep's cothing. George Bush and Osama bin Laden both do more to discredit the religions they claim to embrace than they do to promote them. I tend to think that it's by design in their cases. |
lenny (lennytone)
3-Pundit
Username: lennytone
Post Number: 65
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.241.87.19
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 5:27 pm: �� | ��� |
Interesting interchange of ideas. I guess my post was provocative. The following is my response, as best as I can do. I'm no historian, I just know what I believe.
I believe that G-d called me to be a Christian. Up until then I'd been a lifelong registered Democrat. The story of how I became a Christian is on my website, if anyone wants to read it:
www.lennygoldberg.com
In my opinion, the Republicans come closer to Bible values than the Dems (abortion, evolution, etc.). As I said, lesser of two evils. I didn't say that Mr. Bush's fecal matter didn't stink.
My observation about the menace of extreme Islam concerns the world today, not in history. Last week Muslims slaughtered 600 Christians in Nigeria, for example:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n ews/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=385 13
Not only can't I defend the history of Christianity (The Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust, etc.), but I can't defend the wicked,
bloody history of Humanity. Yes, Isabella probably set the ball in motion, but really Adam & Eve set it in motion earlier. As long as people have a sin nature, we are not going to do everything right no matter how hard we try. Yeah, Satan is in the world and it would not surprise me to find out about secret weird stuff going on in the government here or elsewhere. The only thing we can be sure of is the Word of G-d. The fact that men wrote it down, doesn't take away from it being His inerrant Word.
There's just no comparison between extreme Islam and the so-called "religious right". Taken to its extreme, under Islam you get Sharia law. Under the Bible you get love and salvation. I can't imagine the thought process involved in twisting things that much, for example to think that true Christians would be against Israel. The Bible says 'woe to them that call evil good and good evil'. No, I'm not saying that Israel is perfect, but G-d gave them that land, so if you're against Zionism take it up with Him
|
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 877
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 5:28 pm: �� | ��� |
Go Go: I know that you didn't honey. It was a general response. |
GOAT (goat)
3-Pundit
Username: goat
Post Number: 70
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.228.132.169
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 7:06 pm: �� | ��� |
Lenny. Be careful on how much religion enters politics. Yes, there is a place for it for morality sake. But to base ALL decision on a religion is a terrifying image.
Take a look at all of the countries dominated by religion. Not a pretty sight.
BTW: The New testament is the NEW book. Which is one of the reasons God gave his son to man. For a NEW beginnning.
As for your God giving land to Israel. Well, God gave North and South America to the Natives, but we had that stolen from us. So from your perspective, I guess we will be seeing you later. Time to vacate my land.
(See, it doesn't work that way) |
SisDetroit (sis)
5-Doyen
Username: sis
Post Number: 176
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.42.211.240
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 7:41 pm: �� | ��� |
Goat - Good one, LOL. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 896
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 11:04 pm: �� | ��� |
GOAT.......OUCCHHHH! I'm scared of you my friend!! |
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau)
3-Pundit
Username: sudi_kamau
Post Number: 51
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.117.198.35
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 10:06 am: �� | ��� |
Christians are way too superficial in this day and age. That is how the church itself will help usher in the reign of the Man of Sin.
Republicans are like Pharisees and Democrats are like Sadducees. The godlessness of the Democrats is apparent. The hypocrisy of the Republicans is what makes them so extraordinarily repugnant. There is no lesser of two evils. What part of "come out from among them" is so hard to understand?
When are people going to wake up to the menace of the United States? Radical Islam doesn't have stealth bombers and an arsenal of nukes and daisy cutters and cluster bombs and depleted uranium coated shells and the logistical capacity to move 100's of thousands of men and women to any spot on the globe. The U.S. has killed over 10,000 Iraqis for a lie - actually a pack of lies. That's after having decimated and poisoned the country for a decade based on another pretext. And Iraq is just one case of hypocritical U.S. genocide.
I don't embrace the Quran, so I'm not prepared to say that in its purity it leads to wonderful results, but to say that I'm comparing radical Islam to Christianity in its pure form is a twisted straw-man argument in and of itself. Radical Islam claims to base itself on the Quran, whether you think the Quran is good or bad, but most Muslims don't consider radical Islam to be an accurate portrayal of the Quran's principles. I honestly believe that only self-righteous supremacists can feel that the Religious Right in America accurately portrays the Biblical principles that they like to hide behind. There's no love and peace in these people, only broad philacteries and smarmy rationalizations for their xenophobia and greed.
And I'm not espousing the liberal theology of the main-line denominations either, so don't go there. I agree in principle with a number of positions espoused by the religious right, but overall they are yet another part of the world system, and sincere people need to come out from among them. You can't trust in movements.
I think, and a number of Jews think, that there is a deception in equating Israel and Zionism. The hexagram on the Israeli flag doesn't come from it's biblical legacy - it is an occult symbol inherited from the House of Rothschild. Jews such as those at the links I posted decry Zionism as an atheistic movement that is in rebellion against God and not the true manifestation of his promise of the land. They maintain that the Zionists have done as much to endanger and sell Jews out as anything else, and they do not believe that God's intent is for Israel to hold the land in the unjust fashion that they have.
Christians are counselled to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, yet many Christians in America have that inverted. They insist on being wise as doves, believing every satanic counterfeit, and harmless as serpents, running off to slaughter the guilty and innocent alike, fueled by ignorance, arrogance, paranoia and greed. I think that what America and especially American Christians,(and mere U.S. citizen believers like myself) need to do is repent, and get the beam out of our eye. Then we might be able to see to get the mote - or beam if you will - out of radical Islam's eye. |
Common (common)
1-Arriviste
Username: common
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 209.2.55.172
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 4:28 pm: �� | ��� |
Hello everyone! This is slightly off-topic from the current discussion but nevertheless, I'll just input my views here.
What I find quite annoying is when you create a post/thread to converse with other people, very few folks respond. That's why I've decided to stay more in lurk mode than post. It's quite disheartening when you post a view/opinion/question only to see the same thing repeated by someone else & they get responded to. It's quite frustrating sometimes. I know the board moves very fast & sometimes, it's hard to keep up with the threads. I don't know. Maybe I'm not that interesting or it's because I don't know anybody. LOL! Anyway, that was something I wanted to get off my chest.
Peace! |
Destruction (destruction)
1-Arriviste
Username: destruction
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 199.173.224.21
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 5:32 pm: �� | ��� |
Let's see if I still remember how to do this.
Soapbox. Be nice. Bash Bush. See World. Bash Americans. Be nice. Back Americans. Be Fair. Religion. In. Out. Off. On. MJ. Speak Up. The other MJ. Be Nice. Got it.
Let me open with a pet peeve. Evolution. Evolution has NEVER stated that man evolved from apes as we know them. Two of Goat�s comments were true to concept of evolution. �Evolution created COUSINS. And we are a branch of the primates.� Rather than saying, �man evolved from apes�, the more accurate reflection of evolution theory is �man and apes have a common ancestor.� This concept has been �popularized� into the term �missing link.�
Every now and then you hear of the discovery of another real early form of man. Remember Lucy? However, whether the discovery is of an early form of man or ape, the bottom line is that there has always been some discernible feature that allowed it to clearly be placed on one branch instead of the other. What eludes scientist is the specimen that lies in the fork in the branch.
I saw a lot of Bush bashing and very little Bush support, aside from a few �you�re all just so wrong about him� type comments. I�m not a Bush supporter. Fact is, like a few of you here, I couldn�t see how people could support him based several of his decisions and actions. Tax cuts to the wealthiest 2 percent. Fact. Morphing excuses to invade Iraq. Fact.
So I made a conscious effort to do just that. In an earlier post I saw the website WRH referenced as site for info. It�s a site I always check at least once a week, but I find some of the articles posted there more conjecture than fact, IMHO. On the other hand, I read Common Dreams almost daily. And the NY Times and Fark daily. And msnbc. And slate. And SDF. And the LA Times. and techie forums. But I also read Drudge and the WSJ daily. And Newsmax. And WorldNetDaily. And the Washington Times. At least weekly.
I also converse with those whose opinions run counter to mine including racists.
I remember when STU and I went at it a few times over W. Though we disagreed about W�s performance, I understood why he supported Bush so strongly. Part of his argument basically boiled down to this scenario. It�s 3:00 in the morning and you�re about to walk through 12 blocks of the roughest hood in the world. Who do you want holding your hand? Hannibal Lecter or Michael Jackson? Al Bundy or Steve Darcy(jf)? Or as STU once put it, anyone but Jimmy Carter.
Politics off. Religion on.
To those here who would argue the veracity of their religious beliefs, I ask one question. Do you know the origins of your religion? For example, where exactly, specifically, and beyond a shadow of a doubt did the bible originate?
Although outnumbered, facts outweigh opinions.
|
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
4-Laureate
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 76
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.13.230
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 6:34 pm: �� | ��� |
Hey All,
Hey - De-struc-tion. I missed you. I love your take on non-evolution.
So you are saying that God made man after He made apes - yet - in his Infinite Wisdom - He couldn't have come up w/a man that didn't have at least 94 % of the same DNA as an ape - or some of the same characteristics? Okay - you are saying that man is similar and are cousins to apes? Which - I can buy. So the question remains - what does cousin mean in the aspect and as it pertains to man and apes/primates? And why would God make apes and man cousins?
Man is the more intelligent of this cousin relationship because they can talk and think right?
And - which came first ape or man? And - do you agree with the links I posted - that apes and men are primates?
I have stated this for years - and it is - that if I were a God - and I wanted to distance the more intelligent of these primates from each other - then - I would have done this or that - and would not have done this or that - period.
For instance - if I were God - and I had created this creature called man - I wouldn't have placed holes in the side of his head - that we call ears. I wouldn't have placed a hole in certain other places either. I wouldn't have made man to be a cousin to any other primates.
I wouldn't have given man hair. What is the point? I've read where God gave man/woman hair over their eyebrows and heads to protect them from the sun. If I were the God that had made man - I wouldn't have had one hole where food was placed in - and the other hole where it came out.
If I were a God - I would have made man soooooo much superior to any other primate in that - they would not have had to go thru some of the same changes that other primates go thru.
Why did God make a man - that was a cousin to primates? Again - that is the question. Seeing that God is the Best Knower - and has Infinite Wisdom - could He not have come up with some other form of man?
What type of beings live on other planets? Do they have holes on the side of their heads and other places on their beings? Do they have to talk thru the use of this thing called a vocal chord? Or do they talk only with their minds - thru mental telepathy?
Oooooohhh - I want to play like that. I wonder how I would have fared and what I would have thought of myself if I'd been born to live/evolve like that type of creature. I would have loved not to have had some of the maladies I've had to endure as living as a woman here on earth. I could have done without the cramps that accompany a woman's menstrual cycle, and the pain of childbirth.
Don't all animals have some type of meneses - and endure pain thru their giving birth? What is that about? I wonder if other life forms on other planets were made to suffer so?
Again - I hear 'ya - and I'm definitely not trying to say that I am right - or that Darwin was right. I'm just trying to convey how I view it - and why I wonder about this and that - and wonder at what point God decided to make the Human Being - and when that being was able to carry out more thought - and with that being - being able to verbally relate said thoughts thru the use of vocal chords - that most animals indeed have - but aren't able to articulate into what we call words.
God decided to create man, indeed? Some are still arguing over exactly what time man was actually able to communicate thru the use of words. Some say man was created between 100K and 150K years ago. Does anyone think that initially and upon being born - man was able to speak with what we call words - or was he made to commincate in some other form - until God decided to give him a voice as we know it. Animals of all species have voices too - we just can't understand them.
Welcome back Destruction - homie.
(Message edited by gogogirl on May 18, 2004)
(Message edited by gogogirl on May 18, 2004) |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 915
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 7:18 pm: �� | ��� |
Welcome Back Destruction!!!! It's good to see you here!
Common: Don't take it personal! You are correct in that the threads move fast. What probably happens is that a person sees the other thread before they see yours. As far as folks not responding to your threads, hey, it happens to me & some people actually like me!! |
Destruction (destruction)
1-Arriviste
Username: destruction
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 69.139.236.125
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 10:23 pm: �� | ��� |
GGG,
Always a pleasure to comm with you. Always. Now, to answer all your questions in one fell swoop, i.e. why God did things the way she did. Naaahh, I won't spoil it for ya.
JF20,
thx dude....did ya see my MWC ref next to your initials. God I miss that show. Kept me single till they took it off the air....then my resistence broke down. |
Common (common)
2-Debutant
Username: common
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 209.2.55.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 3:54 pm: �� | ��� |
Hey JF!
It's all good though. It just gets frustrating sometimes. Thank you for hearing me out.
Peace! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 959
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 6:36 pm: �� | ��� |
Hey Destruction, I noticed the reference to MWC. So you suffered from the fallout, huh
Common: It gets better, trust me! It gets fast moving sometimes, few of us remain ignored for long. Watch & see!
Peace!!! |
Destruction (destruction)
2-Debutant
Username: destruction
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 69.139.236.125
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 8:47 pm: �� | ��� |
JF,
One of my modern TV fave moments has Al telling Griff how much he hates having to "service" Peg. Griff reaches into his wallet, pulls out a picture, and says, "Check out the mountain I have to climb.....12 times a year." |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 970
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 9:24 pm: �� | ��� |
Hey Destruction,
There were so many funny moments on that show! I loved the one where Marcy got a job firing people. I loved Jefferson saying: "Free me Marcy, EMANCIPATE ME!" The visage of Marcy, hair tousled, smoking a cigarette at the podium was hilarious. |
GOAT (goat)
4-Laureate
Username: goat
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.228.147.20
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 9:35 pm: �� | ��� |
Destruction.
That was a perfect post! I couldn't have said it any better.
I can't wait to read more from you. (I would post more, but I get tired of fighting and defending my positions on the DetroitYes side. LOL) |
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl)
4-Laureate
Username: gogogirl
Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 63.159.1.0
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 3:13 pm: �� | ��� |
Hey All,
Check out Al. I'll just say! I saw a TV clip of him speaking about this - and he seemed to be on fire.
http://www.moveonpac.org/gorer emarks052604.html/ |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 6:01 pm: �� | ��� |
Hey Go Go!
I caught Al on the news & man, he was bringing the pain! I've never seen Al that dynamic, not even when he was running for President. I didn't know that he had it in him. The thing is, he was 100% correct. |
Robb_K (robb_k)
5-Doyen
Username: robb_k
Post Number: 335
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.81.192.194
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 2:39 pm: �� | ��� |
Responding to this discussion goes against my better judgement because discussing religion and people's deepest beliefs is bound to offend SOME people. But I believe the people on this forum realise that what we are posting here is only OUR OWN opinion, and NOT an attempt to say "we are right and what you believe is wrong". I am only speaking about what I believe, and of course, I CAN'T be right, as the World each of us exists in HAS TO BE DIFFERENT, as we are each in our own body, and cannot see ourselves from the outside, as everyone else who contacts us can. Further, each one of us perceives the World differently.
We ALL have imperfect senses. Therefore the REAL World is experienced by each of us in at least a minmally incorrect impression. NONE of us sees the World the way it REALLY IS. Colours, shapes, sounds, smells and the tactile feel of things seem to us as we sense them. Is the smell of any mammal's feces repugnant - the way we smell it as Humans? Or is it SWEET, the way Dung Beetles smell it?
So.....I can't REALLY know what the World is about. I can't know why I am here, what my place is in all this. Why the World and Universe was created or exists. I can't know if these "rules" (scientific laws humans have 'discovered') which seem to work on Earth and in the limited parts of Space we have explored, apply to all existance.
To me it's a matter of faith. I have lived approximately 60 years, and have come to the conclusion that it's not worth a lot of time to ponder Life's mysteries, because that takes time away from exploring life and enjoying my little time in this life. I feel that if i am meant to learn the answers to those questions, I will learn them when the time is right, and if I'm not, so be it. I was raised a Jew, and believe that the basic tenets of that religion are reasonable.
But, I don't really believe in organised religions. People writing things in books and telling other people "THIS IS THE TRUTH" and what you feel inside yourself is only right if it macthes what's written here" makes no sense to me. The Hebrew Bible is based on God giving humans the Ten Commandments. They are rules to help guide mankind. Obeying those laws means respecting God and thus believing in God and forsaking "the wrong way" (or 'worshipping' false 'dieties'. Those are the essentials of Judaism.
The Ten Commandments can be compressed into one rule, "The Golden Rule". I believe that I should live by the Golden Rule. That is the way I was brought up: "Treat the World and everything in it the way you would want to be treated by them and it". I try to make sure that whatever I do, someone or some thing is not getting hurt by it. This is difficult, as I eat fish and plantlife. But one has to eat to live. I wouldn't blame a mountain lion if he chased after me to eat me.
These tenets telling people to "be good" are similar in all the World's major organised religions. Those elements are the things that are common to all of us humans. The additional parts: history, rituals, etc. is where they differ. People have used the name of ALL those religions to do good and a lot of bad, as well.
I think people should dwell on the "doing good", and "being good" part. That there MUST be a Creator or "Creative Force" or "Creative Spirit" or "ALL-Knowing Essence" is quite clear to me. That we humans alone on Earth have been created in "HIS image" is extremely illogical to me, and smacks of an egotistical bent.
I am a scientist. I believe in a Creator (one can call it God for want of a better word). Albert Einstein and more scientists than not, believe in God, and the laws of science, too. To me, the problem is that mortal, fallible humans wrote the words we find in Bibles today, and they've been translated thousands of times, into language of later times that didn't understand pefectly, the former language, not to mention the translations of one language to another.
Even if we just compare what we understand of the Hebrew Bible of 200 B.C., that was transcribed from writings of 400 B.C. when many words had different meanings and connotations. And it,in turn, had been transcribed from further back, in 500 B.C., and that from 700 B.C. and 800 B.C. and so on, from word-of-mouth handed down tradition from the Exodus from Egypt (about 1300-1400 B.C.) and even earlier traditions. Errors occurred transcribing Hebrew to Greek, Greek to Latin.
It's hard for me to believe that The Creator (God, or one of the aspects or natures of Him) came down to Earth to "die" for humans' sins. It's difficult for me to believe that the Creator created the World in what we consider 6 days, and created the animals in one day, and humans and so on. Time is a RELATIVE thing. There is no REAL time that you can put your hands on.
I have NO PROBLEM believing in a Creator AND science. I don't believe the Bible should be read in the spirit of understanding the words verbatim. To me, The story of Creation is a metaphor or figurative description. The creator DID create the Universe, and The World. Science shows us that we humans WERE "created" (evolved) AFTER what we call the "animals". It's natural that humans would consider themselves in the image of God, in the sense that they can reason and remember their past and contemplate their future, and use their more complicated brains to have dominion over all the Earths other creatures.
But science shows us that our DNA is significantly closer to that of Chimpanzees, than Chimps' DNA is to Gorillas. They are now concluding that humans are not only just another branch of the Great Apes, and many say we are one of the three Chimpanzees (True Chimpanzees, Bonobos and Hominids). To me, that is all semantics.
Every so often, the scientists make a new discovery that changes prior theory. Dividing animals into categories is arbitrary. It has to be decided where one species stops and another starts. It is not important to me whether or not someone calls me an ape or a human, or anything else. I know that I'm ME. I know that The Creator Created everything on Earth and in The Universe. I assume it happened over millions of years in evolution as a best guess (at least until the scientists find evidence to change the theory). That makes more sense to me than taking a 6 day period literally.
First of all, people in the Bible times spoke figuratively in their everyday speech much more than now. It makes little sense to me to just toss away the evidence I see with my own eyes, and the instinct to use my logic just
to believe literally, some words that some man wrote that may have been meant figuratively as they had an instinctive idea of what happened-but didn't have the science to understand it).
Just because some of The Bible seems to be figurative, doesn't mean other parts shouldn't be taken literally. Discoveries are being made continuously corroberating passages and stories from the Hebrew Bible. We now know that Jacob and his family and many other Hebrews likely went into Egypt with The Hyksos (Semitic and Arian foreigners) who conquered most of the country around 1900-1750 B.C. The treasure cities built in Goshen (eastern Egyptian delta area-where the Bible describes the Hebrews abode)by slaves, have now been found. References to "The Isrealites" have been found. A Hebrew (Joseph) could easily have become Vizier to a Non-Egyptian Semitic King (The Hyksos leaders crowned themselves Pharaoh).
The 10 plagues can now be scientifically explained: The giant volcano eruption destroying the Agean Greek Island of Santorini (Thera) around 1500-1450 B.C., is now known to have caused large tidal waves thrown against Egypt's coast, which would have also overflown into the "Reed Sea"/Bitter Lakes area, which now connects the Suez Canal from the Medditeranean Sea to the Red Sea. The oldest Hebrew version of the Bible uses a word that means "reed" in Hebrew. The Greek translation mad it "Red".
The massive tidal waves first form a suction action, sucking much of the ocean water TOWARDS the eruption or earthquake centre. THEN, following that, the tidal wave shoots back across those areas. That action could easily account for the Bible's description of the splitting of the waters so the Hebrews could cross the creeks and lakes of the "Reed Sea", and the waters returning after they passed over the land bridge.
The Santorini volcano has been found to have spread ash over the sky for several months. The prevailing winds would have blown directly across the Nile Delta. Modern volcanos have caused horses and cows to die in droves. They have caused frogs to run amuck. The blood plague in The Nile can be explained by its periodic "red tide" of red algae and microscopic animals that occurs every 7-9 years. Locusts also run amuck when major volcanos eruptions cause chaos. Red tide happening at the same as all the volcano's related affects, would also be considered "The hand of God to help the Hebrews".
Recent discoveries on the bottom of The Black Sea, of pre-historic settlements scores of miles from shore, indicate that The Black Sea was a much smaller, fresh water lake, until about 6,500 years ago, when enough of the Ice-Age ice had melted to cause the Medditeranean Sea to overflow, breaking into the Black Sea basin. It took a matter of months for the whole basin to be filled. Most of the human residents had time to move, little by little out of the are, after the initial flood tidal waves. It seems to scientists and historians that the people living there took the memory of that disaster (devastaing tidal wave triggered by heavy rains, and flooding of their 'known World' (Black Sea Basin) to the new lands. Some of them went south into Mesopotamia (Iraq) and became the Sumerians. Their memories of that disaster was written down as the story of Utnapishtim in the "Story of Gilgamesh". The Hebrews, who had lived in Mesopotamia clearly borrowed that story from the traditional (Sumerian) story from the culture surrounding them. They explained that God punished the wicked by wiping them out in the flood.
I think the Bible was written to make points to the people, that people should be GOOD. That would be a way that would help people survive. The way to get people to listen to this advice is to "Prove" to them that they should listen by using examples of what will happen if they don't. Natural disasters were used as examples of what God will do to sinners. If people turn away from worshipping THIS GOD (the REAL Creator), they will be punished.
To sum up: I don't believe any one organised religion is correct and the others are wrong. I believe that the basic tenets of all of them that preach The Golden Rule (or some form of it) are the best way to live. I don't believe in singling out single things as being "inspired by God", and leaving out the rest of life. I believe EVERYTHING is (from the Creator) and some book that men wrote and misinterpreted and mistranslated is not to be taken differently from anything else in creation. However, I believe the Bible is a good book and should not be discounted as being "fairy tales". If one wants to say it is the word of God speaking to the people" I wouldn't argue that it is not. However, it makes no sense to me to take the parts that seem clearly FIGURATIVE, as literal.
I believe one can believe in science AND God (or even the Bible or Kura'an) at tjhe same time. It's the general message that is important in those books - NOT the details. Their stories were meant to convey the message: Love God (which means love GOOD-good for mankind, good for all life). Follow the Golden Rule, and you are more in tune with nature, and The Creator (or creative force or essence). We see evidence of that in the fact that you can live a healthy life even as a pure vegetarian.
It's been interesting reading all of your posts on this topic. Just remember that we're all human, so we share more than our differences in beliefs relating to understanding life and the Universe. None of us KNOW the answers to those questions, but we all wonder about them. THAT is what we have in common.
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Destruction (destruction)
3-Pundit
Username: destruction
Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 199.173.225.21
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 7:10 pm: �� | ��� |
Robb_K,
When I first attended college, I was a Mathematical Science major. At the urging of a good friend of mine on campus at the time, I took several Theology and Philosophy courses, instead of the traditional Psych and Soc 101 as electives over the next few years. At times I had trouble reconciling my religious and scientific beliefs, especially after delving deeper and deeper into the origins of religion. Interestingly, as I begin to read more of Einstein�s views on philosophy and religion, I found myself basically coming around to similar conclusions that you�ve drawn in the earlier parts of your �paper�. Lol.
Rather than point out the few places where your thinking diverges from mine, the bottom line is that our thoughts are very much in agreement concerning organized religion and the importance of the Golden Rule.
In short the basis of most religions can be seen as answers to the question, �How must we behave as a society to ensure that our society prospers.
My hat�s off to you for laying out your thoughts here.
Now if I may.
Friday, after several contentious years, the Mrs. and I signed papers to legally adopt our Grandkids on Friday. For the sake of brevity, I will omit about 38 pages of background.
While in the waiting room, I open to the front page of the Baltimore Sun. I see the story about the three little girls�.and I almost got physically ill�and for me, that ain�t easy. Over the next few hours, as that story kept circulating in my head, I could feel my faith literally draining from my body. If God had decided at that very moment to pay me a visit, I probably would have slapped him/her, and asked for an explanation. It reached unfathomable depths in my soul. And, to be honest, it�s been festering in me even today.
That is until I read your comments. It wasn�t a feel good kind of thing, but it helped me to put life, religion, love, and even fun(that is the real reason we come here) in perspective. I think the word I�m looking for is �grounded.� I was reminded that we don�t and maybe never will understand the �workings� of this universe and the beings that inhabit it, but that shouldn�t stop us from living, loving, learning, and leaning.
I�m a little better now�thx.
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Robb_K (robb_k)
5-Doyen
Username: robb_k
Post Number: 337
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.81.180.95
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 2:02 am: �� | ��� |
Destrruction: I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. But I'm glad to hear you're doing your best to keep a positive attitude. We can't help but feel our pain, but it's good know people can fight to not buckle under to it. I know what you mean when you might say "Where is this God they talk about?", when completely innocent people are snuffed out or torchered. I had a young cousin who died at twelve of a painful cancer, after being tortured in pain for years. Fully half of my extended family (of more than 100) was murdered by the Germans in World WarII. They were killed because they were born to Jewish parents or they had a Jewish grandparent. One says "Where was God when the atrocities to the Armenians, Native Americans, African Slaves were stolen from their land and treated inhumanly for hundreds of years, and so on". Most of those tortured and mistreated people were innocent.
None of us has the answers. All we can do is our best to make life as good as possible for our families, friends, communities, nations and The World as a whole. The behaviour of individuals DOES matter, and have an affect on The World. Every person that behaves in a positive way is one less that would otherwise be negative. We don't need any more of THOSE. Each one of us affect a LOT of people. The World is made up of individuals.
People complain about George W. Bush being elected President. If just a few percent more of the many, many thousands of "liberals" who didn't vote in the last US presidential election had voted, Bush would not have won. The questions about legitimacy in the Florida election would be moot.
As for me personally, as long as I can look at myself in the mirror, and not feel disappointed, that's good enough for me. Life is a struggle. It's not easy. But it's all I've got. I'm too tired to fight against the tide. I just get up every morning and do my best to have a good day.
I thank David, Lowell and Ralph for allowing us to write on these off-topic threads, as they allow us to learn a lot more about our fellow SDers than just their musical tastes. By the time I meet some of our members in person, we'll probably feel like we're old friends. |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 303
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 9:22 am: �� | ��� |
Robb,
I believe it is in topics such as these that we indeed learn about one another at SD and ultimately become real friends. Thank you all for participating in this non-musical thread. |
Robb_K (robb_k)
5-Doyen
Username: robb_k
Post Number: 340
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.81.23.131
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 2:17 am: �� | ��� |
I can't believe I spelled tortured "torchered", and then let too much time go by to edit it. HA!And I have the nerve to make fun of President Bush for not knowing how to speak his "own" language! Oh well,.... at least I care about the poor, hungry, the sick and the elderly, education and the environment in The USA (and in Iraq, too)! |
ralph (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph
Post Number: 309
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 10:46 am: �� | ��� |
Robb,
Don't worry about a mis-spelled word here and there. We are ALL guilty of that one pal! |
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