Soulful DetroitSoulfulDetroit Forum � Brother Men... PBS Special on Gamble&Huff, and others... Previous Next

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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 113
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 66.119.34.39
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 12:22 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some of you might've seen this special... I am posting this for excerpt for those who possibly did not... The web address is down below, under the excerpt for more details...

BrotherMen Kenneth Gamble and Leon Huff, through their music answered that call at a time when, as Kenneth Gamble says, "people were looking for something, people were almost dead inside." That time, the late 1960s and early 1970s, was a time when the dreamer was dead (Martin Luther King, Jr.) but not the dream, and we needed someone again to remind us: "Keep on children, don't you get weary."

Leon Huff recalled: "We went on a creative rampage." Their music became a call to arms for my generation who were beginning to realize and commit to obtaining the tools of education and opportunity to come back home and save our communities in greater numbers than ever before. Such songs as "America We Need the Light," "Wake up Everybody" and "Let's Clean Up the Ghetto" helped us to "Keep on children, don't you get weary."

Yet also in this historical point in time, the official policy of the America government towards African Americans was becoming "benign neglect." And though a disproportionate number of us were coming back from Viet Nam in body bags and addicted to drugs, a new analysis and public policy was emerging as to the "root cause" of the Black poor, defining the cause of Black poverty as the heading of Black families by Black single mothers.

More of us might have accepted that analysis if Gamble and Huff had not responded with two songs, which today are known as Black anthems for Black families. The songs, "I'll Always Love My Mama," and "Family Reunion," played and replayed from vinyl albums to CD's, reminds us not to allow ourselves to be defined, but that we must define and articulate our own experience.

http://www.pbs.org/brothermen/ gamblehuff.html
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
6-Zenith
Username: soul_sister

Post Number: 1838
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.43.145.122
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 12:32 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah;
Thanks for that link, some good information there. I hope they repeat the special on PBS, so I can tape it. I finally got to tape "Only The Strong Survive" film last night, it was on BET movies.
S.S.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 115
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 216.148.244.92
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 1:25 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No Prob, SoulSister! This was one I missed too, much to my chagrin... PBS is the best thing outside of cable and sattelite that television has to offer me... Unfortunately, I never turn on my television, or look in a TV Guide, so I wind up missing stuff like this...(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah
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Randy Russi (randy_russi)
5-Doyen
Username: randy_russi

Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 169.139.180.100
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 1:45 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Isaiah! I hope it will air on my PBS
station soon.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1666
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.25.105
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 2:16 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's nice.... now how about all those royaltiy which checks which no one ever received, and all of the company artists who had to resort to living on welfare, or committing suicide as Little Sonny and Phyllis did, as well as many other indiscretions which I will not go into right now.
...and the rich get richer...
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 117
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.124
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 2:47 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobby, perhaps you should take that up in court with these guys... Ranting on a discussion board aint gone put one penny in your pocket, man...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Linda Di. (linda_di_fsg)
5-Doyen
Username: linda_di_fsg

Post Number: 233
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.67.198.38
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:06 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No disrespect, Isaiah, but as a frequent forum visitor, I appreciate Bobby's info on these issues. Controversial, yes. But I believe it's important for those of us who have supported these companies to know the real deal. And Bobby does speak the real deal.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1668
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.25.105
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:06 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just had to state my case for for the benefit of al those who are unaware, for all is NOT what is perceived.
I speak not just for myself, but for those whose lives were destroyed by the unscrupulous business practices of these individuals.

Sam "Little Sonny" Brown
Phyllis Hyman
Norman Harris
Ronnie Baker
Larry Washington
Don Renaldo
David Cruise
and last but not least....
Teddy Pendergrass......

and the list goes on...

For me, greatness AND honesty go hand in hand.
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SisDetroit (sis)
6-Zenith
Username: sis

Post Number: 675
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.43.206.95
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:09 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm shocked!!!!! I never heard this before, not even a whisper.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1670
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.25.105
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:12 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You just heard it sis, from one who was there, and then some.
to honor someone for there wel deserved talent and contribution to the biz is great, but behind the scenes there lurks another , dark and murky abyss.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1671
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.25.105
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:15 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When my long time friends and colleagues are taken advantage of and left penniless, that annoys me !!
Of course, Teddy is not penniless, but his statements werent up to snuff either, trust me.
he made most of his money from live appearances and good management.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 119
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 216.148.244.92
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:33 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Linda, no disrespect is received by your comments... If you haven't noticed I come straight to the chase myself, and I'm telling Bobby that he should take this situation up in court with Gamble and Huff, because he will resolve absolutely nothing of recovering his losses by bringing his complaints to this discussion board... Do you agree with that, Linda Di???

Besides, it would not be the first time, nor the last that artists have been "cheated" out of their royalties... It wouldn't, my beautiful sista, Linda Di, be the first time people have been cheated out of their labor, and didn't get a damned dime for it... As an African American I am sure you know all 'bout that...(smile!)

If Bobby wants to share that WHOLE story with us, he has had a LONG time posting at this site to do it... It just seems strange as hell to me that I post a website or two, and I start hearing about how terrible the people featured in the website are(smile!) This is not the first time, either... It happened in the Salsoul post, as well, and I let it slide on by... Now, let's get to the sho down lowdown on all this... I am for hearing Bobby's story, but the whole freakin' story, not some drive-by facts and vignettes... That's bullshit, Linda Di, and I don't have a lot of patience for that.. Come and bring the freakin' noize... I have always advocated this, and I always get shouted down, cause folks dont really like it served hot like that... Bring it on, and let us hear what the story is for God's Sakes...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1673
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.25.105
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:42 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thats all I have to say for now.

Draw your own conclusions.

BTW..this IS an open forum, right?
Right.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 120
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.124
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 3:53 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Bobby, it is an open forum, and I extended my invite to you to make your commentary(ies)... I just don't dig it when you do this drive-by stuff, man... I feel like you're doing it to spite me, not Gamble and Huff... I could ignore it, and I have, but it isn't my responsibilty to always ignore this stuff, either... You can do your own thread on Gamble and Huff, and all of the intrigues that went on there when I was in my diapers, but you come to these threads which I start... What is UP with that???(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah
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SisDetroit (sis)
6-Zenith
Username: sis

Post Number: 676
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.43.206.95
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 4:15 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have heard that Billy Paul won some sort of suit, and was to receive royalties. Was this with the same company??

I've searched my area of PBS, and the documentary is not listed for airing. Geez, I hate I missed it.

(Message edited by sis on October 01, 2004)
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1675
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.25.105
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 5:20 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sis,

Yes, Billy set a precedent by standing up for his rights and having been compensated for a lot of his back royalties.
Its not over yet, as there is a "part two"
There are others who will, and have followed suit.

Regarding "the company", one must practice what is preached.
All that "my brother" stuff is great if it is sincere and adhered to.
And yes, it is the same company.
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Chazz Dixon (voycecz)
2-Debutant
Username: voycecz

Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 6:21 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Bobby,
Thanks for posting. I can appreciate how Isaiah feels, although, as a fellow artist, I not only feel your pain but also appreciate the importance of keeping the knowledge of this type of wrong in front of everyone up and coming. I'm not trying to get in the middle of either of you. However I'd like to thank you for addressing the truth, the real truth, not to defame or un-mask our heros but rather to remind everyone that hereos are human too. And in everyone's closet a skeleton hides and some closets are worse than others.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1681
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.25.105
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 7:00 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Chazz.
The good thing is, is that they were our teachers and they were hands on all the way.
When it came to their craft, they were the best of the best, however in other areas, mainly the financial ones, well.............
When Little Sonny of the Intruders went there for some money to pull him thru after losing his mom and his best friend Eugene "Bird" Daughtry of the Intruders, and was TURNED DOWN, even with their giant portrait hanging in the lobby,
Sonny went to the Strawberry Mansion bridge and ....
They later found him with Intruders cassettes and pics strapped to his body.

Roland Chambers, a lifelong, childhood friend, died penniless and on the skids, the same with his brother Karl.

So thats why I feel as I do.
And the rich get richer.......Money money money money... MONEY!!!!

Once again, they WERE great producers and songwriters.
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DC Groups (shermanb)
1-Arriviste
Username: shermanb

Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.131.188.5
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 7:17 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eli,

Keep posting that kind of information, I myself am very interested in these kind of things. I started the post on royalties a few weeks back specifically to learn about such things, I have two nephews that want to get into this Music business and would like for them to be prepared for this kind of stuff.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2606
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 8:06 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's only one thing that I can say about this. Like Isaiah, I do wish that someone would someday do a story that tells the absolute truth. However, that is easier said than done. One of the best things that ever happened to me as a music fan, was going to the PBS special & meeting some of my favorite artists.

I found that almost all of those whom I spoke with, were extremely forthcoming about their experiences. Some of them told me where they may have misstepped & where things went wrong with others. The fact is that some of them simply don't want to relive the experiences of 25 years ago.

In some cases, there are other considerations involved & they either don't choose to revist, or expose anyone & their dirt publicly. They've lived it once & don't want to relive it again, as it won't wright any wrongs. Even if they did, they'd be accused by the protagonists supporters as being "disgruntled". As I said earlier, look at the reaction right here, when certain names & their behavior & practices come up. They have confided certain things to me & requested that it go no further. If that's their desire, who am I to do otherwise? As such, I wouldn't betray their confidence.

The other problem with true disclosure is that as many are still involved in the industry & not at the peak of the popularity, many must walk a fine line. The music is rife with politics & strange alliances. You have to be careful of who you expose, as well as who you alienate. That bum that you expose may have some very HIGH powered champions. That fact could put one at risk of being blackballed in a very unforgiving industry.

Think about it. How many of you work with some kiss-ass co-worker who rats out everyone, while trying to curry favor with the boss. Who really likes such an individual? Do they ever accomplish their goal? Now, I ask you this...if you were a boss, would you REALLY trust someone who would pull the covers off of everyone else? I wouldn't because I realize that if ever given a chance, they'd do the same to me. I'd see this person as someone who's out for themselves & themselves only.

I would never trust them, nor consider them as a friend. Their motives are aren't righteous & I'd trust them about as far as I could trust them. That's yet another problem with such disclosures...no one in the shady business of music would ever trust a person who exposed a powerful person. Even in a case where someone tries to do right, they sometimes suffer negative consequences. Remember Mr. Willis, the guard who discovered the Watergate break-in??? While everyone else went on to sigh their book deals, where did he end up......ON UNEMPLOYMENT & he did NOTHING wrong! Who said that life is fair?

Now, we have to consider that we're not talking about people who are at the peak of their power & popularity. In most cases, there's no one championing their cause. Taking that into consideration, one must exercise EXTREME case as to whom they piss off. Hey,, it could be the difference between being booked for that Apollo show, that PBS special, or being persona non grata. Folks have to eat & that's that.

Also, what would it really accomplish & who would really care? Even if we did care, could we make the difference between the exposer being able to put food on the table, or starve? Look at what happens right here when someone utters the names D.R., B.G., D.R. or O.W. Learned forum members know know I mean, as there have been constant disagreements whenever these names come up. The fact is that people have already decided that "so & so" could do no wrong. If you say something negative about "so & so", the majority don't want to hear about it. They don't know half of what they think they know, yet will defend some of these folks to the death.

Even when ample evidence is presented, some people STILL make excuses for their favorites. That's when they make comments like. "Well, I like their music. Why do we have to get personal". Well, we sometimes have to get personal because the great "so & so" screwed over someone or their friend or family member. Naturally, when they read that "so & so" is the greatest thing since the invention of condoms, they aren't trying to hear it & rightfully so.

Finally there are two things to consider about such an endeavor....

First, you have to find people who would be willing to testify in your behalf, in the event that you are sued & end up in a court of law. Would you have enough coroborating witnesses to help you prove your case? As we well know, everybody's got a whole lot of mouth....when their asses aren't on the line. Sure, they'll egg you on but when push comes to shove & you'll end up like FUBU. Expect it won't be "For Us By Us. It'll be more like FYBY...you'll end up testifying For Yourself & BY Yourself. Some friends just aren't reliable when it comes to having your back. How many witnesses in your neighborhood are willing to testify to the truth? Against some powerful people at that?? Then again too, sometime a little creative palm greasing goes a long way to creating a touch of "amnesia" for the duration of said trial.

Finally, such disclosure can be potentially hazardous to one's health. In 1975, there was a profific songwriter/singer of a very popular Soul group, from "The Blustery City" (name has been changed to protect the innocent) whose label owner was being investigated. This label owner who will remain nameless (as I don't want to have to ream his/her survivors), was being investigated for various infractions that were just a tad south of the border of being legal. This "Blustery City" singer/Songwriter was so afraid for His/Her overall health & well-being, that when an question was asked that would indicate that the label owner was just a wee less nicer than Barney The Dinosaur, he/she wouldn't even SPEAK the words. He/she simply nodded his/her head.

Sometimes, intimidation can be quite a deterrent to the truth :-)

(Message edited by juicefree20 on October 01, 2004)
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Chazz Dixon (voycecz)
2-Debutant
Username: voycecz

Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 9:39 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sometimes it's best to let the truth be told in the movies. (The Five Heartbeats) Everyone can nod their heads in agreement and no one need risk their future doing so.
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DenvrMotownLvr (john)
2-Debutant
Username: john

Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 24.9.226.3
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:39 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In connection with this subject, (and this may have been discussed before) does anyone know what was going on with Motown as far as the company keeping the lion's share and the artist/musicians getting pennies on the dollar?

Whenever I have seen or read statements by Berry Gordy regarding this situation, he has said something like, "that was the way business was done at the time". What does that mean? Is that a confirmation that things were indeed weighted in favor of the company?

This is not a knock on Berry, I understand that he provided an opportunity for many that they might not have had otherwise. He also invested his own money in things that were of benefit to the artists, such as the vocal lessons, choreography, and the finishing school to teach the social graces. Who knows, without this micro management, maybe they would have not been as successfull and we all know nothing is free.

Does anyone have any first hand information about this?
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mike s (mike_s)
5-Doyen
Username: mike_s

Post Number: 195
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.93.33.7
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 6:34 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Bobby's main point is that there was a lot of preaching by the label about humanity and kindness and spreading love amongst all people. But they didn't always practice what they preached in their business dealings?
We all know you need finance to run and maintain a business...and life isn't easy in the music business, but surely there could have been a more honest, warmhearted approach to the artistes that spread the music? Or was it- business is business. The artistes got their dues and should have looked after themselves and their financial situation.
On a personal note, the story of Little Sonny's tragic end is heartrending.
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
6-Zenith
Username: soul_sister

Post Number: 1842
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.43.145.122
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 12:44 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Juice;
That was deep and to the point. That was so real, a sad but true comentary about the music industry. You know I know about the "blustery city" comment, lol!! Your right on when you say some people don't want to know the truth.

I have to agree with what mike s said too. Most of us are well aware of the tragedies throughout the music business. It's sad some of our most revered people in the industry are some of the most unscrupulous, and cold-hearted of all, perhaps that's how they got where they got. Maybe a warm-hearted, honest, sensitive, and sincere person doesn't stand a chance. That hurts.

Bobby, those tragedies are horrendous, lets hope they are all in a better place now.

S.S.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2617
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 56.0.103.24
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 2:21 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the main thing that gets lost by most of us...fans, artists, etc. is this: at the end of the day Show business is a business. Unfortunately, by the time most of our famous entertainers found that out, for most it was too late.

I've seen a few cases where some pimp-like manager, agent or label head, totally bullshitted an artist & swelled their heads with a bunch of empty promises. Promises are good, but sometimes you have to read the fine print. Many artists tied themselves in contracts that made them just this short of being an indentured servant. Contracts with terms that would guarantee that they'd never break even.

Even if they blew up, the contract was in effect & what label head was going to rengotiate?? They had the hammer & the power & that was that. The business has always been slanted against the artist & in many cases, there were unscrupulous agents & label heads, who thought nothing of hooking their star on cocaine or heroin. First of all, it was cheaper than paying a fair contract. Secondly, it was a method of controlling the artist. If the artist made too much noise, the label would have no problem letting all of the other major players know about this "problem" child. have you ever wondered what happened to some of our very talented singers of the past, who SUDDENLY could get any kind of record deal??? Can you say B-L-A-C-K-B-A-L-L-E-D????

99.9% of the time, the industry has been dirty & slimy. It's amazing how an industry whose makes us feel so good, ruined the lives of many of those who gave us joy.
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Manny (manny)
6-Zenith
Username: manny

Post Number: 471
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.124.51.125
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 2:29 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Submarine to all!

When i was a teenager and don't got idea of English, I read the messages writing by Kenneth Gamble that appears traduced to Spanish in the sleeves in many PIR albums. I believed the author of those messages of universal love was a true person.
This is the reason why of my deception. The true can be hard but necessary. I can't heard "Rich Get Richer" in my favorite "Survival" album with the same ears from now on or i can obviate the lyrics. Or I can think that the O'Jays were true.

Peace & Soul Food
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1683
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.46.134
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 3:26 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Juice,
There actually were several "pimp types" in the Philly biz, but not with G&H, per se.
There were a few "hangers on" and a writer or two who were canditates but not in a big way.
Gamble and Bell were the casual desert boots and khaki types in the studio, and Huff was the "blingster, but not at all over the top as most are today."

There was one "pimp type" who actually had an Eldo with a "diamond in the back' and with all of the clothes to boot.

He was somewhat of a "gangster" in a Superfly sense, but with a heart of gold.
At one time, he was second in command to the Philly empire, but drugs destroyed him and he is now somewhat in a semi-vegetative state.

Man, if the walls could talk!!!!!
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
6-Zenith
Username: soul_sister

Post Number: 1844
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.43.145.122
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 3:40 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yea Juice;
I know a couple if Artists who were hooked on heroin by their label or agent involved from back in the 50's. Whom had their careers totaly and deliberately ruined, so the handler could keep them tied to them as a meal ticket. One was one of the best female vocalists around, who could have had both an acting career and a singing career!!
S.S.
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Kevin Goins - KevGo (kevgo)
5-Doyen
Username: kevgo

Post Number: 202
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.33.204.11
Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 9:52 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobby & company:
Once again, thank you for reminding many here on the forum that what is SAID is often different than what is DONE.

I heard about G&H's "business practices" from Leo Sacks, who compiles their compilations for Sony Music (the company who owns the early PIR masters circa 1965-75) and this was before I became reacquainted with Bobby Eli.

The point made is that there are many sides to the story and we should look at all angles without prejudice or malice.

Kevin Goins - KevGo
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2651
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 11:27 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobby, I don't know why you're sitting on that info. You & I have talked often enough for me to know that there's one hell of a book in you. As I find your offline accounts to be balanced & not over the top, I know that your book would be fair.

You really need to write it :-)

Soul Sister, LIKEWISE! If people knew what really went on behind the scenes, their hair would stand up on their heads! Actually, most of these stories would never be told. I doubt that many of the artists would want anyone to know just how foolish they were back then. These untold stories contain the secret shame, that's hidden by the publicity, glitz & glamour & most of us bought it hook, line & sinker! For every success story, there are THOUSANDS of broken hearts & ruined lives of young folks, whom didn't know that they had just jumped into a tank full of sharks.

I don't know if it's been posted here, but here's a link to a story about Gamble & Huff. It has an interesting story about the origins of "Me & Mrs Jones:

http://members.aol.com/boardwa lk7/gamblehuff.html
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
6-Zenith
Username: soul_sister

Post Number: 1853
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.43.145.122
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 12:08 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Juice;
Interesting article on "Me & Mrs. Jones", LOL, a great song! I wonder who the couple were :-). Thanks for the post.
S.S.
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John Barry Sheffield (jaybs)
4-Laureate
Username: jaybs

Post Number: 78
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.92.168.169
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 12:37 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Bobby for bringing us "The Other Side" of the Story/Facts.

I have always had so much respect for Gamble & Huff, but often as always we the Radio DJ's, Record Buys, Listeners never get to hear the full story - and at the end of the day it is the Artists and Musicians that my Full Respect goes To!

By the way talking about Radio Bobby, just heard a superb track on UK Radio late this afternoon in our "Soul Show" by the Aristocrats, and your name was mentioned said it may be released in 2006?

Regards John
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mike s (mike_s)
5-Doyen
Username: mike_s

Post Number: 196
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.93.33.7
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 12:45 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Slightly changing the subject, I know one UK label has been talking to G and H about putting out some of Phil Int's unreleased material.Apparently there is lots of stuff sitting in the can. No word yet as both have other projects and interests at present. Is it too much to hope that the artistes involved might get proper payment if it happens....
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2655
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 1:03 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Soul Sister. I too wonder if everyone knew who the couple was & if the couple themselves ever knew that they were the inspiration behind the song.

Mike, from what I understand, Gamble & Huff were very economical & their singers & musicians were so proficient, that they're not much unissued material sitting around. If would be nice if there was. Perhaps, like with the posthumous Phyllis Hyman LP, there's some tracks from sessions for artists who didn't work out with P.I., laying around!
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 122
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 66.119.33.167
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 12:56 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, scroll to the top of this thread to see if I asked anyone for full or other disclosure of anything regarding Philadelphia International Records... Re-read the post, and see where I asked anyone to to bring "truth" or "controversy" to this thread, or to relive their experiences, bad or pleasant, on or within this thread... I suggested that Bobby reserve his commnents regarding Philadelphia International Records for a court of law, as there is nothing by the way of remunerations to be obtained arguing his case in the court of public opinion...

Why, then, the longwinded defenses regarding the man's integrity, his capacity for forthrightfulness, his disclosures of the terrible penurious and parsimonious practices at Philadelphia International Records???(smile!) Why I was under the terrible illusion that Bobby Eli had built mighty Philadelphia sound with his bare hands, and all by his lonesome until these explosive revelations up above!!! Now, I see the man was but an employee, a veritable slave, of the nefarious Gamble and Huff Sound dynasty!

Now, what is the truth, as I have heard that all was La Familia Amoroso, eating pigfeat and soppin' flour gravy at various and sundry greasy spoons throughout the continental United States... Today I learn that pain and suicidal misery
reigned without abatement, and contributed to claiming the lives of some of our heroes...

This, y'all say, is truth??? Truth, in my opinion is how much of a company's profit does it share with it's employees beyond that which was agreed to in writting??? How long does a company stay in business sharing all of it's profits with it's employees??? Truth is, how much did those Philadelphia musicians make for playing those sessions, what was the rate per hour for playing those sessions, and was that rate comparable to other musicians at other companies??? Truth is, does an artist deserve compensation beyond the agreed upon figures in their contracts, particularly for songs which they did not write, arrange, nor produce??? Truth is, is not a company entitled to the lion's share of the sales of a record or album for having expended it's own money in producing the album, paying the musicians who played on the album, advertising and promoting the album and artist, and giving the artist a vehicle and stage from which to exercise their talents???

There are a lot of factors which are glossed over to make the salacious point that the poor artist was cheated, but what part did, or does, the artist play in his or her own affairs???
Sonny's issues were mentioned up above to imply how terrible Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff were as people, but I would like to know if anyone can tell me if I'd of ever heard of Lil' Sonny and The Intruders were it not for the terrible twosome at Philadelphia International??? I'd like to know if I'd a ever heard of a whole lot of folks were it not for Gamble and Huff???

It seems the height of ingratitude on the part of you, Bobby Eli, to trash these men who gave you the opportunity of a lifetime, and I am sure, paid you handsomely for your services... If, as you have claimed at this website, you played on 90 some odd percent of all of the music that came out of that era, and you were not paid and compensated for your work, why would you continuously go back and play for these men who cheated u for near 20 years???

Yeah, I know, you LOVED playing the music so damned much that would you would go homeless and be starved first before you would turn your back on the studio, and the big happy orchestra that played there...(smile!)


Is it possible that like so many other artists, the one's about whom you speak did get paid, and didn't know how to handle their financial affairs??? If an artist has to pass the hat to bury a family member, that would not be the fault of his employer - no matter how much the employer was paying him or her... If an artist who has made good money over the years falls on bad times, that is not the fault of his present or former employers... If an artist develops a problem with his or her taxes, or goes into bankruptcy as the result of terrible financial management, that is not his former or present employer's fault, and to imply that it is straight wrong...

That is not to say that the recording business is not notoriously bad... It is to say that, perhaps, it aint as bad as it is oft made out to be by artists, who are employees, and do not seem to understand how a business in run... A hit record doesn't make an artist a partner in the business anymore than an inventor in a laboratory shares in the benefits of their inventions while in the employ of that lab... I think this is lost on some of us who listen to the artists sob stories, and because they are our heroes, we think them blameless... Perhaps, we need to re-think how we think, and what we think, of the whole process...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Morgan (leeway)
4-Laureate
Username: leeway

Post Number: 89
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 209.104.139.161
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 2:24 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kudos to you Isiah!!

I'm feeling your comments, they are very much in line with how I think on this particular topic (especially your next to last paragraph!)

You've presented your thoughts very clearly.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 123
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.124
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 3:58 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Morgan, believe me, I am shocked beyond belief that anyone at this board would readily admit that the artist has some responsibility and culpability in their own personal and business affairs for better or worse... All I ever hear at SoulfulDetroit is mad sympathy and empathy for the artist, and no kind of understanding for the big, bad, despicable record company, which should've emptied their coffers looking out for the hapless, helpless, dumb and stupid recording artist...

We don't seem to realize that that is the statement we are making about the recording artist, that they are too stupid, dumb, childish, and immature to look out for themselves... Just starry-eyed entertainers who just wanted to shang... Clearly, most wanted to sing, and be a big recording star - as I always wanted to be an electrician before I became one... We all want something so badly that we are willing to do it for free - until we find out how rich someone else is getting off our labor, and in that, find out what our true value is on the open market... Well, these artists seem never to have bothered to check that out, and do what was necessary for them to do... Was that the record company's fault??? Nope! Nope! Nope!

I do not care that times were different then, and the technology is different now than then... If you find yourself involved in an unscrupulous business that wont pay you for your services, then to stay in that business, and continue getting your head bumped...that's about you, and your unwise decision making... That is the point I am making here, and none of the folk who support the artist's decision to continue delivering their own asses into the hands of these vultures would make themselves so accessible to being financially raped in that way...

What I am, also, appalled at is the notion that this hit record the artist recorded entitles him or her to remunerations in perpetuity even though the artist did noting but sing the song... Well, using such logic, should the artist pay back the company when the record flops, and costs the company money for production costs and promotion costs??? In truth, the artist signed a contract, and should get what is on that contract - not what he thinks he should get once the recording project is successful, and he or she sees sales exploding through the roof... They signed that contract, now honor it, and be quiet about it...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Morgan (leeway)
4-Laureate
Username: leeway

Post Number: 92
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 209.104.139.161
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 4:43 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Isaiah!

I agree with you 100%!!

Now about that Ike Turner thread.....

(Message edited by leeway on October 04, 2004)
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Vonnie (vonnie)
5-Doyen
Username: vonnie

Post Number: 309
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 141.149.60.6
Posted on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 5:25 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah,

Man, I Love Ya! You're a joy! Love is in the air when you are on Soulfuldetroit. I also like the linguistic lessons you so generously supply. Nothing "longwinded", your words are joyful, uplifting and enlightening. Words such as in your second paragraph, penurious and parsimonious, I'm in awe of your verbal skills. And in the fourth paragraph the use of the word salacious, wowee, you go guy, you got it going on, even Mr. Webster would be in awe of you.

My dearest Isaiah no one could ever accuse you of being longwinded in the short eight paragraphs you wrote. I also admire how you are able to "change written word", this knack just adds to that special touch you make me feel(smile). I wanna break out into the Stephanie Mills song, "You Make Me Feel Good All Over". The way you twist and turn words, I can imagine what you could do...hmm.

Bobby, I'm sure would have liked to personally reply to your most gracious and kind postSMILE; however, he is in the hospital having surgery, so I have decided to respond for him.

First, let me say, when I read Bobby's forum post, it was sad to read how he felt about Little Sonny and the others who died penniless, that is probably the reason I missed the "ranting and raving" about the renumerations he (Bobby) did not receive, I think he mentioned his friends. "Explosive revelations", common knowledge, (Billy Paul, Billy Paul).

The most striking part of Bobby's post that I missed reading was his blatant ingratitude, how could he dare say, "ONCE again I will say they were Great Producers and Songwriters". Now that's real ingratitude and as you said Isaiah that was the height of ingratitude trashing the men who gave him the chance of a lifetime. You also mentioned that he was a slave, and I guess all slaves when the master threw them crumbs, would say, this is the chance of a lifetime, as you so aptly put it, Bobby and I thank you. I need to get my eyes checked Isaiah(Smile), I think "You Make My Brown Eyes Blue", I've missed these things that have been attributed to Bobby. Isaiah, I need an eye exam fast.


I could go on and on my wonderful one, but I have to go and as always, butta wuddant melt in your mouth. I remain your greatest admirer,

Peace, Love and Brotherhood and
May The Almighty Bless You Forever

Your loving Sister
Vonnie

(Message edited by Vonnie on October 04, 2004)
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Vickie (vickie)
4-Laureate
Username: vickie

Post Number: 120
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 198.81.26.46
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:45 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great insight Vonnie my dear friend...

lots of love to you and Bobby (smile)
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2688
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 1:07 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah,

As I re-read my comments, I see no long winded defense of anyone specific. I read what was being said & remembered all of those battles here, pitting this artist against that artist, or label head. I remembered all too well the Otis Williams, Diana Ross, Jackie Wilson & BG arguments that used to take place on the regular. I wrote my comments with those things in mind, before anyone decided to go off on that tangent.

As I re-read my posts, there was only one time that I directly referred to Bobby. That was to his statement, "If walls could talk." I said & still maintain that he should write a book. That was not meant to imply that you shared that sentiment. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I said that in my offline experiences wih him, I found his statements to be balanced & not over the top. I also said that I believed that a book of his would be fair. In fairness, I don't find two sentences to be long winded. Considering the way that I write, two sentences add up to a bad post for me. I didn't write what I did to get in the middle of a battle with anyone. Especially between the two of you, as you well know how I feel about the both of you.

The part about being long winded was a bit of a low blow, but duly noted. Remember, I've been equally long winded if not more so, when defending you on a few occasions as well. Did you consider that fact before you responded to me as you did? If in your heart you feel that type of response was warranted, cool. Personally speaking, I don't think that it was.

In this instance, I think that you're allowing your personal dislike color your judgement against one who has ALWAYS been in your corner.

I wish that you had thought about that before you pushed send, but that's cool.

(Message edited by juicefree20 on October 05, 2004)
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John Barry Sheffield (jaybs)
4-Laureate
Username: jaybs

Post Number: 80
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.92.168.171
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 1:53 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vonnie, please send my Best Wishes to Bobby from a Detroit and Philly Soul Brother here in the UK, tell him get back soon -we miss Him!

Cheers John

We all have to get something off our chest sometimes, and I mean ALL of US!
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mike s (mike_s)
5-Doyen
Username: mike_s

Post Number: 209
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.93.33.7
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 5:51 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Isaiah that business is business...and who is to say that a lot of artists haven't squandered money?
But I think in the Little Sonny case, it seems strange that the call for help apparently went unanswered. After all, surely the point is that these guys grew up and came up in the business TOGETHER.
May be the story isn't quite as cut and dried as it seems and of course there are always two sides to a story, but it sure disappoints me nevertheless.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 125
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.124
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 9:28 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, I apologize if you feel like I delivered a "low blow" to you, as you called it, but to be quite frank, them 2 sentences you spoke in Bobby Eli's behalf on this thread, which is about Gamble&Huff, was 2 sentences too long, my brother... Funny, how I asked you to scroll up to the very beginning of this thread, and check that fact, and you are telling me I delivered a "low blow????" No Sir!!!

And I'm allowing my personal feelings toward Eli to "color" what I wrote in response to him INJECTING himself into a thread where I never mentioned his name???(smile!) Yeah, brother and sister Vonnie, that is precisely what I did, because I am tired of his shenanigans, and believe me when I tell you I went mad light on 'em with the little that I said...

Again, this thread was about a PBS special on Gamble&Huff, not Bobby Eli's feelings about Gamble&Huff, and all of their terrible business tactics... Anyone, including Bobby, who wants to start a thread of that nature, please holla... But don't do it here... Juice, I feel fondly about Gamble&Huff, perhaps, as you feel about Bobby Eli, and that is why I will defend them as you have chosen in this thread to jump to his defense... That is "balanced" reasoning, my brother, and you take that as you like...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Morgan (leeway)
4-Laureate
Username: leeway

Post Number: 98
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.41.236.206
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 10:04 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah,

You tickle me!! "I went mad light on 'em" That is priceless!

"Your 2 sentences was 2 sentences too long!

Even your closing "Peace!" seems in yo face!

What's up with that Isaiah? Why the hostility?
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Vonnie (vonnie)
5-Doyen
Username: vonnie

Post Number: 312
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 172.142.3.42
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:05 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dearest Isaiah,

I know you are angry because Bobby posted on a thread that you started, but I am under the impression that on this forum, we can all respond to a post. Your thread was about Gamble and Huff and his response was about Gamble and Huff. If there are rules about who can respond, and how to respond to a post, I will abide by the rules of the moderators.

I just wanted to add to my previous post, the words you wrote, "Now, I see the man was but an employee, a veritable slave". This was a hurtful analogy:-(, referring to an employee as a slave. In my heart I know that you meant that part of your post to be taken figuratively, and not literally, but it was still hurtful. My ancestors were slaves and they never received renumeration for their services. Gamble and Huff paid their employees, maybe not what they should have been paid, but they were paid. Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff would never consider an employee as a slave, those guys were and are shrewd business men, not slave holders.

Peace and Love

Your Sister Vonnie
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Ralph Terrana (ralph)
Moderator
Username: ralph

Post Number: 703
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 209.240.205.63
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:35 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyone has a right to an opinion here folks. Let's keep it real.
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 45
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:16 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobby and Juice
I know about the diamond in the back sunroof and all..I know who's in the vegestative way..its my dad's manager, and yes he was #2...pimp daddy in Philly, its Philly's Groove none other than Mr John Stanley Watson...my dad's manager from years back...not saying he got what he deserved, because no one deserves to be laid up like that...but he did steal my dad's royalties, just like the people you mentioned here...it was the norm for Philly Record Companies...seems like to me...I grew up with no royalties, once taken by my dad's manager, and now taken by his very own brother...we lived the tragedy of not having royalties..but having hit records on the charts...it was awful...I am so lucky my dad had my mom to pull him thru...and us children to reach back and help him go forward...no one listned when he had nine children and a wife to support...no one really cared...he was on his own...no record label helped him...no manager helped him...it was God and his belief in himself and God that pulled us thru...taken out the mouths of babes...nothing but the truth...I remember when Mr Sonny died, Mr Suga Bear Forman died, Mr Fatlarry died...Norman Harris died...my dad cried like a baby...these were his collegues and they all could have been saved...if only they had the money that was due them...royalties that they earned to help them support their families..
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 127
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.124
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:26 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vonnie, your tongue sounds like it got caught all up in ya cheek on this post(ahahahahahh!) Don't worry, I have a touch of that malady, myself... Maybe it's congenital!(smile!)

Your Fiancee, Vonnie, wasn't just coming up in this thread to "RESPOND" to a post about Gamble&Huff, but to wax on how terrible they were to their employees, damning them with his faint praisin' self... That's cool, and he's entitled to do that all he likes, but when challenged on it don't feign innocence... Take your lumps as good as you give 'em, awight, Vonnie???(smile!)

Now, Morgan, I aint no mo' hostile than you were on that Ike Turner thread - now am I lying???(smiles back'atcha!) I'm happy to know that ya liked SOME of Ike's music, if not the brother's most wonderful personality(He-He-tweek-tweek! ) Love you, too, Morgan -and I rilly rilly mean dat!!!(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah
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Nosey (nosey)
5-Doyen
Username: nosey

Post Number: 288
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.153.113.238
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:30 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fonic Zone, I feel your pain. I was just thinking about how remarkable your mother is to have stood by her man in spite of and how intelligent you come across in expressing your feelings on this forum.

I feel saddened by those that were cheated and as a result of visiting this board, I can truthfully say I'm glad and thankful that I didn't choose the entertainment business as a career!

I dated someone who was affiliated with G&H and in 1994 he was still bitter and angry over being cheated to the extent that our "relationship" lasted only 5 months! Couldn't take his negativity and jealously of those who were able to move on. He has since gone into the ministry and hopefully, has exorcised those demons.
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:41 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Nosey
I grew up feeling the pain in my dad's heart but he was and still is a very kind and gentle person. Like someone on this thread said before, if the artist was gentle they got taken advantage of...My dad is so trusting, he never would believe they were stealing from him...He would always say God takes care of everybody in his own way...and he will take care of us...and that is what he believed..but he never gave up on his craft and he had my mom help him survive ...and together they raised us and educated us so we would not fall victim to such pain...he taught us to love one another and be there for each other no matter what..never let your brother or sister need something and you have the means to help and don't...God will bless you for your endeavors not man...
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Vonnie (vonnie)
5-Doyen
Username: vonnie

Post Number: 313
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 151.205.96.156
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 1:17 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nosey and Fonic,

Thanks, for your comments. The Truth Will Set You Free, is so very true.
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 49
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.134
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 1:25 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Vonnie
I am only speaking the truth, I grew up with this truth and let the truth be told...
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
6-Zenith
Username: soul_sister

Post Number: 1867
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.43.166.140
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 1:38 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi fonic zone;
So sorry to hear all your Dad went thru, perhaps now it will be better than ever with his new group. Best of luck to him and welcome to SD fonic zone!!

BTW, "Fat Larry" James was a very good friend of mine, sad he left us so young, he was a very talented musician and a good human being. R.I.P. Dusty.
S.S.
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 52
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 2:17 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Soul Sister
thank you for the kind words of thought...and yes Fat Larry James was very nice to us as children he loved to teach my brother Little Wil how to play the drums on stage in between the songs on stage and off stage...We loved him dearly...He was a happy person, I remember the different color shoes he would wear with every suit...the same color shoes...he was a dresser..looked good at all times...he loved my moms bean pies...too.
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Chi Drummer (chidrummer)
5-Doyen
Username: chidrummer

Post Number: 248
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 67.175.80.46
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 2:52 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This has got to be one of the most unique threads I have ever read here. In one hour I've gone from simply trying to find out when a documentary might be broadcast in my area to the most complete articulation of my lifelong wariness of the music industry that I have ever seen.

Isaiah, if I ever start a debate team you are my first phone call. Your argument in defense of record companies/management is incredible (more than a little devil's advocate here). You hit a very raw nerve when take the position that Artists, over the years, have had as much if not more to do with their own demise. There's plenty of evidence for that position and it is well taken.

Bobby, Vonnie, Juice, et al speak as only the people who were there in the trenches at the time can speak. They know and have lived the story behind so much of this music we've all grown to love. Many of us who are/were just fans can no longer hear those songs in quite the same way after reading the stories and comments made by you guys/gals on this board.

I can not begin to debate either side point for point on this issue, but I will say that there seems to be multiple shades of grey here. Sure, there are and have been artists that should have taken better care of themselves. At the same time the sheer number of artists who's lives have ended at some level of tragedy points to something that is fundementally wrong in the industry. If accountants and lawyers were, at the end of their lives, in the same condition as many of our entertainers, a federal investigation would be launched to find and eliminate the cause. Both sides are to blame for this situation and both sides could end it if the will to do so was there.
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Vonnie (vonnie)
5-Doyen
Username: vonnie

Post Number: 314
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 151.205.96.156
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 3:02 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah,

After reading your last post, I now get the underlying problem, your total dislike of Bobby Eli. I now know how to handle your posts, don't respond! I don't know if Bobby will make the same decision that I have made, it's a man thing, but I hope he does. I now know the bait tactic, because you used Gamble and Huff, knowing that Bobby would respond because of his affiliation. I however say, why respond to ???????

I ain't mad atcha, just a little disappointed in your tactics. I too feel like Juice, a little betrayed, because I came to your defense. Oh, well Brothers can stab you in the back easily, because you trust them.

Peace and May God Bless You

Your Sister Vonnie
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 3:51 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chi Drummer
Back in the day the manager told the artist you make your money on the road...don't worry about the sales of the records...I will see to it that you get your royalties...so everyone trusted, they were being looked after, then came the setting the artist up with the accountants, lawyers etc that literally robbed the artist as well...sometimes your manager was also your recording company, conflick of interest, huh...sometimes your record company and the artist had the same lawyers...conflick of interest huh....so the story goes...if you wanted to hear your records on the radio, these was the tactics used to keep the artist from asking for their royalties...they kept the artist high and dry and on the road..with 30 day tours etc so they were too busy to worry about how and when the royalties were due...then they were told there is no money...the manager had it and gone...or the accountant said you spent it all on phone calls he had to make costing upwards of a $1000 a call, etc...the video cost had to be recouped or whatever they could get away with saying why the money was not there..but keep on working on the road that is how you can make your money doing shows...and so the story goes, your production had to be recouped and it took all the money...these were the kind of things the artists are told even today...the video ate the money up
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 129
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.156
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:16 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fonic Zone, tell me, how do you know all of the tricks the recording industry used to "cheat" artists out of their earnings??? Did your father tell you these things - and if he did, why did he allow it to go on as long as he did??? Are you trying to tell me that your father was so unintelligent as to not understand all that his eyes had seen, and his mind had comprehended???

Fonic Zone, I am aware that artists were, and continue to be, "cheated" in every area of the artistic world... I have, myself, signed away a number of poems I've written only to find out that other publishers would've offered a nice sum more for my work had I only asked... I know this because the publishers were my friends, and had to cancel the check after a copyright check???(smile!) Who's fault was it that Isaiah "cheated" himself out of a few extra dollaz???

Later, as an electrician, I did work for a sweet old woman at the behest of a sweet old mechanic who I thought was my friend... I worked on my 40th birthday in 1999, running up and down 6 flghts of stairs, sweating my bootie off in a rat infested basement installing an intercom system for a woman who aint paid me yet(smile!) My lady and my children let me know who the fool was that day, believe that!

The point here, Fonic Zone, what part in this did your father, as well as other artists play in their affairs??? I am sorry that any artist must be TAUGHT how the game is played in this manner, but the fact remains that that IS how the game is played, and for an artist to continually allow themselves to be played, and played again, does not warrant my sympathy or empathy...

Peace!
Isaiah
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 55
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.134
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:28 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are not asking for anyone's sympathy...this is what happened...The groups were robbed and that is a fact...ask Tony Braxton, if only left eye was here to verify...you act like the artist was stupid and was not aware of what was going on...they were boys fresh out of high school some never even made it that far...before entering into the entertainment business. it was not just my father, but a lot of others as well were kept in the dark about royalties...now the artist has been made aware of what is going on...that is one of the reasons the recording industry does not want to hire the older artist, because they cannot fool them and steal from them now that they have become aware of what was suppose to be happening with the money...received from the sales of records and how many artist gave their publishing away...just to hear themselves on the radio...my father did not give his publishing away it was stolen away...he did not give his royalties away , they were also stolen...he has lawyers trying to recoup now...but if the industry leave you high and dry you have no money to fight with...so they keep you broke so you won't come after them...their pockets are deeper than yours..they have your money...and if they keep you from getting it, then they win...until the day comes when you can afford to go after them and that is what my dad is doing as we speak..
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 131
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.124
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:43 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fonic Zone, I dig, I would defend my daddy and mama to the death too! I don't fault you for that, but I cannot dig a lot of excuses... As the Last Poets once said, Time is runnin' out on bullshit changes... I've heard it from the artists ad infinitum, and I have been taught that there are always other sides to the story... My wisdom is not infinite, but I have concluded that the artist had, and has, culpability in their own affairs... That's human affairs, or the affairs of the universe, we all are playing our part, Fonic Zone...

If you, or anyone, is going to err, going to make mistakes, and ever accuse others of having it in for you, and not accepting your own part in that??? What can I tell you, but that you will always remain the victim playing foil to the victimizer...

Peace!
isaiah
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Vonnie (vonnie)
5-Doyen
Username: vonnie

Post Number: 315
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 172.128.241.241
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:47 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FonicZone,

I understand the music business just like you do, because I have always been part of that scene. It is those who are not involved in the music business who do not understand. They are on the outside looking in and talking out of both sides of their mouth, consider the source.
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Vickie (vickie)
4-Laureate
Username: vickie

Post Number: 123
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.236.243.31
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:52 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bravo Vonnie....

well said......

you have to be in it , live in it to really understand it.....reading about it and assuming what people were like, or what they SHOULD have done is not the same as insight you have from being right there ...As Fonic, Bobby, yourself, and Soulsister do day after day after day for decades now..
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2694
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:53 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chi Drummer,

I don't recall making any statement to the effect that only those in the trenches can speak. Quite to the contrary. I think that William's daughter spoke quite well about life outside of the fantasyland that we call music & the cold-hard reality of a family trying to pay their bills.

Frankly, there's nothing that anyone in this forum can say, that will stop me from enjoying anyone's music. You see, I seperate the people from the music. As I don't know any of them, their lifestyles & practices don't directly affect me. I love James Brown, he was my first musical idol. However, he's flesh & blood & succeptible to the same sins of the flesh that I am. His habits, as regards treatement of women, as well as his problem with substances is well documented. For the record, my father hung out with James regularly & I met one of his wives, back in the day. So, I have first hand knowledge about this, not second hand speculation. I expect them to be human beings & not perfect Gods. As such, I can admit their flaws, regardless of that fact that I personally like them. If someone knows something negative about them that I didn't know, I store it away, until I can confirm it.

With that said, I will always feel the same tingle when I hear Sex Machine, Cold Sweat. or any of his many great hits. That will never change. I love the music, even if I don't love some of the things that he's done. I separate the two. If anyone should happen to mention that he may have done something wrong, so be it. I won't defend, nor condone what he or any of my favorite musician or athlete does. I may not appreciate hearing it, but I won't tell anyone that they have no right to air their gripes about them.

That is called fair & I'm sorry if anyone would allow a mere discussion & the fact that some of our heroes are flawed human beings, affect their appreciation of their music. I played James Brown, Philly International & all of that great music in 1974 & I'll still play it in 2004. The fact that some of them may have made missteps along the way is a non-factor to me.

Since you mentioned the folks outside of the trenches, how do you respond to Danita Hart's experiences & feelings? She wasn't "in the trenches", she & her family were directly affected, by some of the common practices that were in effect at the time. Is she wrong to feel as she does? Are her thoughts & experiences invalidated because it was "standard operational proceedure"?

Now as for the artists. If we consider most of the personal accounts of them, we understand that most of them were young kids, who just wanted to sing. When it came to contracts & things as such, the vast majority were way in over their head. They wanted "The Show" & all of its trappings, but didn't understand "The Business" & what came with it.

Most of them knew nothing about recoupables, points, publishing, mechanical royalties & the like. Now, some may say that they should have known better. Unfortunately, all of them didn't have a mentor to school them. Sam Cooke had a J.W. Alexander to guide him & teach him about royalties. How many others were that fortunate? Think of all of the artists who sold the rights to their hit songs for a Cadillac or for $50.00. I doubt seriously that they believed that those songs would be as popular as long as they have proved to be. I don't believe that they thought that they would be as timeless or as valuable as they've proven to be. How could they have known that when we didn't even know that? Hell, if all of us had that kind of vision, we'd have saved all of our records, toys & Baseball cards & be retired now.

What books did they have to get this information from & even if they had the books, would they have understood the myriads of clauses, sections, paragraphs & complicated legalese? From a legal standpoint, back then precious few lawyers would even tackle a major record company. Consider the various lawsuits & cases that involved record companies & artists at that time. Even while armed with lawyers, even when suing successfully, most of those artists had to settle for a pittance of what they deserved. These cases are well documented & it only illustrates the stranglehold that record companies had & still have over their artists. Prince & his fight against Warner is the most recent example of this.

Imagine if a 17 year old walked into Stax, Motown or Atlantic Records with their personal lawyer in tow. What do you think would have happened? They would have been shown the door with the quickness! What record company of that day would have signed what they would have considered a "rebel rouser", who would have potentially stirred the natives with talk about producing, royalties & things as such? That wasn't going to happen, history has proven that.

These label heads knew that they were getting fresh, young meat. Young meat who they could B.S. & promise pie in the sky to. Seriously, what kid given the opportunity to hear their voice on a record is going to negotiate dollars & cents. Back then, that record gave them bragging rights & all of the fringe benefits that came with it. How many of us wouldn't have been seduced into unwittingly signing our lives away to someone who's offering us what appears to be the chance of a lifetime?? Of course, there was the old standby: "Trust me baby, I'm gonna make you a star! Leave it to me baby, you're gonna be big"!!!

After the big dream exploded, what recourse did these artists have? There was no lucrative free agent payday in music back then. Industry practices were industry practices & from all recorded accounts of the practices of those days, almost all labels operated in the same fashion. So, where was an aspiring singer to go for fairness? Basically, they were forced to trade one liar from another (not that all record men were liars or unfair, but they were definitely in the minority).

For every Sam Cooke, Otis Redding or James Brown who either were guided, or handled their business correctly, there are 10 Mary Wells & Florence Ballards, who were jerked. Often, they were jerked by the very people who SUPPOSEDLY had their best interests in mind.

Were there artists who screwed up their finances??? Sure there were & they're still doing it to this day. A lot of them got caught up with the big houses & cars, the groupies, the fast life & all that goes with it. We look back only through the wisdom of hindsight & blame these artists. To be truthful, most 18 to 20 year olds, were not that business savvy back then. They needed a fair & honest champion & even Elvis' champion received a 50% cut of the action.

The true essence of this industry is summed up succinctly in your final paragraph. I blame both sides, but I blame the labels more. I blame them because many of them made huge promises. They took advantage of starry eyed kids & their dreams. They knew that many of these kids would want the opportunity to record, that they'd do it for practically nothing. Unfortunately for these kids, that's pretty much what they got. Oh yeah, if they were lucky, maybe they got their face on an LP cover.

Yes, there is & has always been something wrong with this industry.

(Message edited by juicefree20 on October 05, 2004)

(Message edited by juicefree20 on October 05, 2004)

(Message edited by juicefree20 on October 05, 2004)
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 132
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 66.119.33.167
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:54 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vonnie, HOW have you been INVOLVED in the music scene??? What was your POSITION in the music scene??? Were YOU the head of a record company that was "cheating" these artists??? Were you the cheating MANAGER of one of these artists??? Were you just the fiancee of a disgruntled artist, or what??? Tell us all about your myriad experience in this bidness...(smile!) Come on, now, bring it!!!(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 57
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 4:54 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have a right to think what you feel and say what you feel..we lived thru the bull and my brothers have Masters Degrees in Public Administraiton and I am working on my Master in Education...we are all taking Entertainment Law and finding what the artists have gone through is the fact that most of them all had no lawyers or the same lawyers as the record companies, or management firms that looked out for the manager, or the record company and no one protected the artists...many artists trusted their managers or record companies and that is what happened to most of the artists of yesterday...they were robbed...ask little richard, he will tell you the same thing...they were robbed...until they woke up one day and started asking where is the money from the sales of records,,then they were blackballed...ask any artist out there...we lived this life...first hand knowledge and then we went to college and studied this business of music
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 58
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 5:15 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am Danita Hart-Pierce the oldest daughter of Wilbert Hart an original member of the group Delfonics, and what Vonnie, Juice and Vickie said is the truth...that is how the music business was back then...When the boys became men and started asking for the money (Royalties/Publishing) monies you were blackballed and called trouble makers...recordings stopped, gigs stopped...managers disappeared, record companies would not let you in the office, why, because you had found out someone was getting your money and it was not you...this caused the death of Little Sonny, yes it did...he asked for a handout and was not given enough to survive on...that is the truth..we talk as children of entertainers and that is what really happened...he went to his record company for help and was refused help financially able people turned him down...spoken from the mouths of babes...his
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 59
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 5:44 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My dad said I don't have to defend him or my mom..they can take care of themselves...and have been for a long time and will continue to do so..what we went thru as children growing up in the entertainment world is all I can talk about because we lived it...our friends are friends of other entertainers children and that is all we talk about how our parents were robbed in the music industry...that is why we went into another field...the corporate world, but we want to help our parents pursue their careers as well so we take up this business of music to see how we can help not only our parents but future artists so they won't become hurt in this field ..so they won't think it is so lucrative in the beginning, but they will find it raw at the end of the deal...How can we right this business of music...Will there be any benefits for the young artists when they get old...Will the record companies give out health benefits, stock, 401k's social security...pensions...will it...they haven't as of yet...that is something to think about isn't it...
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SisDetroit (sis)
6-Zenith
Username: sis

Post Number: 695
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.43.206.95
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 6:10 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice - I hear you. I will continue to love the Classic Temptations, and enjoy the movie even if I don't like Otis. LOL.

I will continue to admire Berry Gordy even though from my heart, I believe he, along with his partners in crime, cheated quite a few atist out of their money. But, still, I will continue to enjoy the music which came from the real Motown.
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 60
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.134
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 6:23 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing I can say for my dad...he never went to Kenny or anyone other than Arista Records for his royalties...They are selling his songs and voice on records to this day...and still have not given him one dime...nor have they given Randy one dime...They say they have given my uncle a few dollars on behalf of the group...which never got around to Randy of my dad...it does not mean they are right for giving our money anyone, other than the artist that signed on the dotted line...which was all three of them...not the manager, who by the way was only suppose to get 20 per cent ......I do remember once Connie called my dad and said she had a check for him for royalties from Warner Tamplan/ thanks to Tommy Bell for making sure my dad got that...so you see there is good in some people...but don't say the artist is not entitled to his royalties if he was not aware he was suppose to get them..most of the times the artist never knew the record company had received a check for them unless someone on the inside had not informed them ...that was sad...and bad business ...not paying people for work they have done...
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DC Groups (shermanb)
2-Debutant
Username: shermanb

Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.131.188.5
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 9:46 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fonic_zone,

I'm very interested in your story, and would like to know more about it. I have an interest in artist royalties and how they get cheated or sign away there rights to that income, also I always wondered what happened to the Delfonics. This thread may not be the place for that so you could contact me at Benton55@aol.com Thanks
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Chi Drummer (chidrummer)
5-Doyen
Username: chidrummer

Post Number: 249
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 67.175.80.46
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 12:01 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boy, you go away to play a gig and look what happens! Juice, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. What I meant by the "trenches" line is that those of you who made a full time living through music are in a unique postion to tell a part of the truth that those who didn't may not perceive or understand. What you state in your last post and what Ms. Hart is saying is exactly the kind of perspective that I'm talking about. It is that perspective that makes this board so fresh and informative.

Funny you should mention the 17 year-old showing up at the record company with a lawyer. I was (a long time ago in a land far away..) a 20 year-old who showed up at the doorstep of several record companies with my tapes and an attorney. And you're right, we were shown the door each and everytime. Sometimes with a hearing, sometimes without, but always with a traveling cloud of suspicion.
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Charise (mistrivia1)
6-Zenith
Username: mistrivia1

Post Number: 640
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 198.81.26.46
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 12:56 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Peace & Blessings on this thread!!! Lord Have MERCY!!!!! Almost too high to get over and to low to get under!! I agree with many takes on the subject, but I have to say that Vonnie you made the right choice in your next to your last post. That devil is trying to get it started up in here and it's really not that kind of party, Capice??? :-):-):-):-):-)
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Morgan (leeway)
4-Laureate
Username: leeway

Post Number: 101
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.41.236.206
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 11:27 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In all fairness to Isaiah, he did try to steer this conversation back to it's original intent twice. Bobby wouldn't let the royalty issue go. Gamble and Huff, Philly intl, was the intended topic. Seems to me that because Bobby stated it, everyone else seemed to fall in line with his statements. I find that this sort of stuff happens a lot on this sight, it's very clique-oriented.

Fonic, I too am one of nine kids (i'm #7) and my momma raised us by herself. I feel your statements, I know how hard times can get, and how important family togetherness is when the times get hard. Seeing you write that your father is not bitter, a nice man and all, that made me smile. Bitterness can be lethal, same as holding on to past hurts and transactions. I am more impressed with his and your moms ability to keep their family loving and together than anything else, congratulations to them. I pray for his continued success in the music industry.

As long as money is involved, these issues aren't going anywhere, as long as folks choose to hold on to past hurts and transactions, that albatross around your neck will always keep you down in the dumps. There comes a point in time when you just have to let hurtful things go. Issues and situations that break your spirit and fill your days with sadness and self-pity are to be avoided, at all costs.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 135
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 216.148.244.92
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 12:46 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Morgan, thanks for setting the record straight... This thread was supposed to be about Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, but some folks don't wanna share the spotlight(smile!)

Hey, ChiDrummer and Mike S., thanks for seeing BOTH sides of this issue... Once again, I'm clear about artists getting taken to the cleaners by record companies, and would never deny this... As Morgan reiterated, this thread was about Gamble&Huff to begin with, not exploited artists, not disgruntled artists... That is for the courtroom, not a discussion board... I wonder if any of you who are synchophants for the wounded heroine Vonnie caught that post??? With all of the shilling and cheerleading going on, folks lost sight of that... Yeah, Charise, there's some devils up in here, and aint a damned one of 'em bears any resemblence to me...

One does not have to be in the recording business to understand what exploitation is all about... One merely has to have their eyes opened to the ways of mankind... There are sweatshops all over the world, and the people who work in them will never see the inside of a cadillac, much less own one... Our government attempts to procure oil at dirt cheap prices, and invades foreign nations when they cannot, but when y'all driving your SUV's the passion is for the road, not those being exploited... The artist has an obligation to himself and his family to put dinner on the table, not fulfill his dreams to the point of impracticality... I am glad so many more artists chose the high road of pragmatism over their dreams, because they understood the rapacious nature of the industry they were in... These record companies DID take advantage of some impressionable children, and some older folks too! But they did not hold a gun to anybody's head to sign a contract without looking at it... Your eyes are opened, but you refuse to see...you REFUSE to see...


On a final note, I know a bunch of athletes who grew up in my community, and secured nice contracts... They came back through the community in their Rolls Royces, sporting their Rolexes and the diamnonds in the back bespoke High Maintenance... It wasn't long before what they had was gone - like Fly Williams, for example... There have also been a bunch of recording artists who opted for this kind of lifestyle and lost it all... They see that hit record they had so many years ago still making money, and they are broke... 'The record company is at fault', they cry... Really??? Y'all draw your own conclusions...

Peace!
isaiah
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fonic_zone (fonic_zone)
3-Pundit
Username: fonic_zone

Post Number: 63
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.134
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 5:05 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In response to your question what role did my father play ...lets me know you don't know much about what he did...His mother signed his contract for your information...he was not yet 18 years old...another thing is my father was not only a singer, he is a writer, producer, and artist as well as a music publisher...he produced songs on other artists as well...he was taught by the best...Tommy Bell along with the help of Gamble and Huff...He produced songs on Norman Connors for Arista records...He produced songs on Honey and the Bees...He produced songs on Brenda and the Tabulations...He produced songs on Rob Base...as well as Major Harris...just to name a few ....The only royalties not given was from Arista on the Delfonics...music he helped produce, write, and sing on...just thought I'd answer your question...He produced Hey Love on the Delfonics...Seventeen and in Love, Pardon Me girl...Break your Promise...For The Love...and so many more...just thought you might not know all the facts...I have seen the Music Clearance Sheets and the copywrites...original papers and how it was suppose to be split...that is why today he is promoting his own label..he has artist up and coming and all legal work is almost done...productions about to begin on several artist he has done his homework and will not cheat anyone of his artists out of their royalties..he makes sure they go get their own lawyers...they understand this business of music..he gives them the book and let them go home and read it then go get their lawyers ...he is doing everything right so the artists will not be cheated...they will be on top of their game from the beginning...something he did not have the chance to do...he knows the mistakes that were made and refuse to make the same kind of mistakes that robbed innocent people of what they were entitled to get...FONIC ZONE coming soon on MOTHER EARTH RECORDS
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Charise (mistrivia1)
6-Zenith
Username: mistrivia1

Post Number: 642
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 198.81.26.46
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 9:34 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fonic Zone:-):-):-):-):-)
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 147
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 66.119.34.39
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:14 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fonic Zone, listen I have been nothing but respectful of you and your father in my words on this thread - which I must remind you is about GAMBLE&HUFF...

Have I gone onto the thread which you started about your father's group, and in any way been disrespectful of his legacy? In the same way that you want respect for you father, then, it is incumbent upon yourself to extend the same level of respect to the legacy of others, are we agreed upon that? Do not let folk manipulate you in this way, because if you can be manipulated by amateurs like these, then those folk whom you claim to now have the smarts to beat, will beat you... Regardless of how you may feel about what I've said here, remember that neither yourself, nor those who are encouraging you to join their madness knows me either... Do your thang, sister, but on your own terms... Like me, you might make the entire your world your enemy, but when you look in the mirror you'll know the person looking back at you was tall to the task...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Mark Speck (mark_speck)
5-Doyen
Username: mark_speck

Post Number: 234
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 63.188.136.225
Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 6:23 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danita, please give my best to your father. I have a Delfonics CD at work and play it constantly. They're still one of my favorite vocal groups!

Best,

Mark

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