Soulful DetroitSoulfulDetroit Forum � Sam Cooke v. Marvin Gaye: Previous Next

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Cool Ju (cool_ju)
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Post Number: 128
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 3:19 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry but I have to bring it up! I'll pose the question differently, though.

Stranded on a deserted island. You can only keep either your unabriged Sam Cooke or Marvin Gaye collection, the other you have ta burn for fire wood (fire plastic!). Which one do you keep?

Soul-wrenching, I know!
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Richard Felstead (felstead2001)
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Post Number: 128
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 128.40.91.183
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 3:36 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mmmm, I have given this some serious thought, and have decided I'd just have to get the fleece lined coat out of the suitcase !!!!!.

I come prepared ya know :-))

Just ribbin' ya Cool Ju.

Too tough for me to call.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
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Post Number: 2525
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Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 4:54 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll take a stab at this one. I feel that Sam Cooke had one of the smoothest voices this side of a babys' skin. I wish that we could have heard how Sams' sound would have progressed into the mid '60s & on into the '70s. I love Sam & feel cheated by his murder, as well as some of the lousy songs & sappy background vocals of too many of his songs . I understand that Sam was trying to break into places like The Copa & Vegas. Regardless, it's absolutely criminal that a man with his gift, had to record as much garbage as he did. I mean, Sam could make the Yellow Pages sound great. Regardless, some of his songs are musically unlistenable. Cousin Of Mine??? I don't think so!

I have to go with Marvin, as I feel that Marvin was a more honest singer. I feel that Marvin was a more versatile singer. Marvin switched his persona numerous times & made them all work. Marvin just hit you with so many styles & vocal shadings, that it was ridiculous. While I love Sams' voice, too often, he sounded a bit detached from the material. Much of the material seemed ill suited for him. Additionally, much of his music didn't ring true to me. It didn't seem believable to me. To me, it seemed as though he was compromising himself. Marvin spoke more to my soul, I FELT him more than I did Sam.

Marvin revealed himself in his songs in ways that Sam never did. Perhaps if he had lived, he would have. I can only go by what he did. Marvin took us through so many emotions...joy, pain, ecstasy, lust, love, anger, whimsy, introspection, social & ecological awareness...Marvin took us on a journey. How many singers have bared their souls like Marvin did on the "Here My Dear" LP???

Marvin also had a voice comparable to Sams'. However, his had more shadings & nuances than Sams did. I believe that vocally, he borrowed from Sams' mold & improved on it. Marvin bent & shaped a lyric, like a master sculptor.

Finally, there's the music. Marvins' music was more consistently excellent. How could it not be? Far too often, Sam had to overcome the production & arrangements of his songs. If not for his voice, many of those songs would have been unlistenable. Additionally, too many of Sams' LPs were filled with uninteresting, silly, throwaway filler. That's not the case with Marvin. For the most part, you can sit & appreciate an entire Marvin Gaye LP. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for Sams' LPs.

For these reasons, I have to choose Marvin. Sam had talent & the potential to have done greater things musically. Marvin had the potential & he DID great things musically & more consistantly at that.
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Kdubya (paladin)
5-Doyen
Username: paladin

Post Number: 355
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:45 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting analysis Juice. I agree with your point of view, however I would arrive at the same conclusion from a different angle. Sam Cooke was not of my generation. He was of my parents. My mother loved Sam Cooke, Jackie Wilson, Roy Hamilton and many other soul singers/artists and she made sure that I was exposed to them. She would comment on Jackie Wilson holding that breathtaking note on Danny Boy, Sam's nuances on A Change is Gonna Come and Roy Hamiltons vocal strength on You'll Never Walk Alone. I listened and learned. But....Sam and company were her singers and I grew to love them too. Marvin on the other hand was one of my singers. After my mothers tutorials, in the early and mid sixites I became aware of Marvin singing songs like Hitchike, Try It Baby, Stubborn Kind of Fellow.. up to and through Aint That Peculiar, Take this Heart of Mine.....his duets with Mary,Tammi & Kim Weston during my teen years and finally as an Adult with his classic Whats Going On, Lets Get It On Sexual Healing masterpieces. I was able to tutor my children on the sounds of Marvin Gaye. True, if Sam had lived he was certainly headed in the direction of Stevie and Marvin by writing and producing his own work, so we could probably surmise that most of Sam's sugar pop offerings would fall by the wayside and he would become a star with the same stature as Marvin. So to say that, is to say this.....Marvin by a landslide.
Just thought I'd take a little time to express myself.

Kdubya
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Tony Russi (tony_russi)
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Post Number: 263
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.210.24.241
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:56 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was 11 when I bought "Stubborn Kinda Fella" which is still my fave Marvin Gaye record.I love Sam Cooke and his importance to the music industry and influence on singers such as Marvin Gaye can not be denied.However, I'm a bigger Marvin Gaye fan.
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Davie Gordon (davie_gordon)
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Post Number: 240
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Posted From: 81.157.113.197
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 12:03 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good analysis, Juice - I agree.

I keep wondering what Sam would've been like if he hadn't been saddled with Hugo & Luigi as producers
- they've been responsible for some of the worst dreck it's been my misfortune to hear - just look
how they ruined the Stylistics.

That said Sam did have a tendency to go in for schlock - and he was doing it while still at
Keen so it wouldn't be fair to say it's all the fault of RCA and Hugo & Luigi.

I wish he'd lived to continue in the direction he
was taking with "A Change Is Gonna Come" and try not to think "A Change .. " was a one-shot
he might have abandoned.

Davie
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SoniT (sonit)
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Post Number: 41
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Posted From: 209.193.174.254
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 1:36 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd have to say Marvin. I love Sam Cooke's voice but I'm more familiar with Marvin's music. Marvin's music is very special to me.
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Lady Mystique (ladymystique)
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Post Number: 727
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Posted From: 216.37.254.198
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 9:20 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love both as they have some of the smoothest voices in music, but I will have to give Sam his props for the same reason I mentioned in the Elvis vs. Sam thread. Marvin has an impressive catalog of material as well and both were excellent showmen, but Sam is the one who not only has a song catalog, but had a hand in EVERYTHING that related to his music, including owning his label. AND that was achieved during a time when it was unheard of for an African-American to achieve such. I can only name Berry Gordy and Quincy Jones for doing what Sam has done as well. If there were others, I am an eager learner! :-)
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
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Username: isaiah

Post Number: 104
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.156
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:04 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sam Cooke laid the blueprint for Marvin Gaye, and virtually EVERY R&B and pop singer who lived after him... How, therefore can Marvin Gaye even be compared to him???

His unsoulful secular catalogue not withstanding, Sam actually recorded his best music as a gospel artist... So it was the potential that was seen in his Gospel renderings and gorgeous countenance that led his mentors and handlers to select the silly pop material he recorded... It was, therefore, a career path thing for Sam - who did not die broke as some do... We cannot be mad at him for that...

Maybe I am talking who is the most INFLUENTIAL of the two artists, and there's no doubt who that is...but nevertheless, I'll take Sam's voice even over Marvin's, which was superb, no doubt... But I will not punish Sam for his musical selections anymore than I would Marvin's while under Berry Gordy... The market dictated to him, what he should record if he wanted to retire a wealthy man... To his credit, Sam was cognizant about what his worth was, and pursued those avenues he felt most advantageous... Had he not paid heed to that market, we would probably not even be discussing him right now...

So Sam understood his profession to mean business, as well as show, and his catalogue may reflect that... Marvin, on the other hand, didn't understand any of that until much later in the game, when he realized he wanted to produce his own material... By then, the market had been opened wide for Marvin to be Marvin, and express things in his music without the encumbrances of Sam Cooke's era... I would love to see how Sam would've gone about his business in an era where he had earned his money and fame, and was comfortable with expressing his Mississippi roots(smile!) That, and having the influence of the artists who followed him, like Curtis Mayfield, Marvin, Barry White, and Al Green, instead of being the trendsetter, himself, would've given his catalogue a lotta flavor to savor...

In any event, I only wish both of these brothers, who died violently, would have been granted the longevity to fully realize their potential... Frankly speaking, I enjoy the music of both men, though I tend to play Sam Cooke's music more... Both men had that rare quality that set them apart from their contemporaries, and that's called genius... May both rest in eternal peace...

Peace!
Isaiah
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Lynn Bruce (lynn_bruce)
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Username: lynn_bruce

Post Number: 106
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.41.107.18
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:10 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can't blame Sam Cook for some of the Mitch Miller sounding arrangements he had to endure. In the late 50s if you wanted to play in the big houses like the Copa or in Vegas,you had to appeal to the white world war II generation.They were the ones that ran the big clubs and they were the ones that were the audience(read no African-Americans allowed).Those were some racist days even for white rock musicians.

In Sams case,you have to cut out the music and listen to his great voice. Then think how great he would have sounded with a good soulful band backing him up.
I worked on the same show with him in Jacksonville Fl. and he had a black trio backing him up.---Let me tell you that Mr.Cook was "cookin".
LYNN
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
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Post Number: 2583
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 56.0.103.25
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:27 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah & Lynn,

Good points. As to the potential of Mr. Sam Cooke, I think that we get a glimpse of his future musical sound, on the "Live At The Harlem Square" CD. On that CD, Sam sounds light years removed from songs like "Loveable", "Cousin Of Mine" & songs of that ilk. Sam forgot about singing well mannered & somewhat reserved. Sam simply cut loose during that performance & let it all hang out.

I would have loved to hear more of THAT Sam Cooke. I believe that had he lived, we would have.
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Tony Russi (tony_russi)
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Post Number: 267
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Posted From: 68.210.0.41
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:55 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Live At The Harlem Square" is my fave Sam Cooke recording. I love all his productions on his Sar label...Womack Brothers(gospel), Valentinos(secular), Sims Twins, Jackie Ross ect.
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Destruction (destruction)
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Post Number: 445
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Posted From: 199.173.224.21
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 1:15 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Stranded on a deserted island.... Which one do you keep?"

My mom liked Sam Cooke, I'll take Marvin. I hope I get the duets and Moonglows stuff too.... cause I'm gonna need those Soul Stirrers on a cold wintry night.
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John Doe (wfw)
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Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 24.36.63.14
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 2:20 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey there folks. This is my first post on this board, although I've been a lurker for quite a while.

Now the question at hand: Sam or Marvin?
For me, it would be Marvin, hands down. Admittedly I'm biased, since he's my favourite singer of all time. But his music grabbed me in a way that Sam Cooke never did. In fact, while I own almost everything Marvin recorded, I don't have any Sam Cooke in my collection. That may shock some folks, but all I can say is that he never interested me in the way Marvin did. Don't get me wrong though, I like what I've heard. There's no doubt the man could sing.

As for Marvin: in my estimation, everything he recorded from MPG on is a must have.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
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Post Number: 108
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 216.148.246.156
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 2:36 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's happenin' Homeslice! Thanks for the prop!

Actually, I enjoy these comparisons, because they make us take a look at why we love an artist; all of underlying and overacrching reasons we have for our allegiances... It really is all subjective, and no one's going to PROVE one artist is better than the other... Even with indisputable proof of one artist's "superiority" over another, we gone love who we gone love, period...

This particular comparison was great, because there exists more criterion for the comparison than, say, between Elvis and Marvin Gaye...

When we examine these guys musically, Marvin might have a slight edge in terms of really meaningful music, but when you look at the lives of the two men, Sam's(though shorter)was far more meaningful and influential...

He had a monster Gospel audience that propelled him before the secular audience that included Marvin himself... To add to this scenario, he was forced to tread ever so lightly in his quest to attract the more affluent pop audience, while not alienating his existing Gospel audience... At that time he was writting songs for the Soul Stirrers - where he learned to demand his "f-ing money" - and writting his own little pop ditties for a small independent label that didn't last any longer than a finger snap...

Marvin, on the other hand, had the auspices of Motown, the creative power of their writting and production teams, and had even married into the family... I know that this all known quantity, but these factors tend to play huge roles in how an artist's life and career play out...

Sam's ebullient and aggressive(some say arrogant)personality versus Marvin's shy, aloof,(some say troubled)personality played roles in what they sang, hence the depth of Mr. Gaye's music(smile!) Sam's encouters with deep south segregation traveling with the Soul Stirrers, his early introduction, no doubt, to his own magnetism and power with the opposite sex, loaned a little to his music, but Marvin's family history was the stuff of classic dysfunctionality...

All of their story will, somehow, strike a chord in the hearts of those who love them... I've got friends who love Marvin because of all of the dysfunctionality of his life... Perhaps, it reflects their own life stories, or just evokes their empathy, but they agree that Mr. Gaye is their man when it comes to Soul Music... My love for Sam Cooke has a lot to do with all those bad and beautiful things I heard about him as a child, and what I have come to understand of him as a man... I can actually see paralells between myself and Sam that are important ONLY to me, have meaning ONLY to me... When I hear Sam Cooke singing You Gotta Move, I am hearing a man who's parents were migrated out of the south as my parents did, and who were members of the Holiness Pentacostal church as my parents were... We used to sing this song, though at a much faster tempo than the blues tempo Sam uses in his rewritten piece, but the general groove, the general feeling is there, and the song ends all too quickly for me(smile!)

In my final analysis, you can't lose with either of these two cats, who I am so glad graced us with their life stories... What would our world be like if we didn't have these incredible human beings to talk about... Like Ray Charles, I hope someone will have the guts, the gall, the grit, shit, and motherwit to put their life stories up on the big screen... Both of these brother's stories are tailor-made for that...

Peace!
isaiah
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Tony Russi (tony_russi)
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Username: tony_russi

Post Number: 268
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Posted From: 68.210.0.41
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:11 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Isaiah, a movie on both Sam Cooke and Marvin Gaye would be big box office if done right.While people are alive that knew & loved them. Both are very important artists in American history for sure.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
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Username: isaiah

Post Number: 109
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.124
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:28 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tony, have you, by chance, seen the Ray Charles movie??? I've seen some trailers, and Jamie's got the imagery and the mannerisms, but he's got a tenor(Soprano!)type voice, which makes him seem not so Ray Charles-ish during the speaking part I saw... I certainly hope that trailer doesn't do the movie any justice...

Peace!
isaiah
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Tony Russi (tony_russi)
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Post Number: 269
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Posted From: 68.210.0.41
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:04 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh no, I Haven't. Is that going to be at the theaters or t.v.? Jamie Foxx?With these hurricanes down here I haven't been too in tune.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
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Post Number: 110
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Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:26 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, full-length feature film, Tony... Opened yesterday, I think... For whatever its worth, the film has gotten major raves from the critics... Jamie is being touted as a possible Academy nominee already...

Peace!
isaiah
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Tony Russi (tony_russi)
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Post Number: 270
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Posted From: 68.210.0.41
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:39 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, since we don't have a hurricane this week end maybe I can go to the movies.Thanks Isaiah.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
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Post Number: 2584
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Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:58 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First things first! Welcome aboard John Doe! I hope that you enjoy your stay here! As you can see, I concur with your opinion of Marvin, though I love them both. Perhaps it's the fact that I was only 4 when Sam was murdered & Marvin was the one alive when I came of age.

Hey Tony,

Isaiah is 100% on point about the movie. When I saw the trailer, the whole audience kinda cheered & laughed. Jamie is a hell of a mimic & man, not only does he have the mannerisms down, from certain angles, he damn sure looks like Brother Ray! I think that he'll be able to handle the vocal nuances. If you've ever seen Jamie Foxx impersonating singers back in the day, he does a more than credible job. This movie should be on the money.

Yes Isaiah, there should have been a Sam Cooke movie YEARS ago. In fact, there should have been movies about the following as well:

Jackie Wilson, Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding & Little Richard.

Given their accomplishments, experiences, excitement that they created & the times that they lived in, it has to be a bit more interesting than The Buddy Holly Story & La Bamba (in spite of the fact that I loved La Bamba.

Hell, there should've been a major motion picture about Motown, James & D Ross & The Supremes as well.
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Cool Ju (cool_ju)
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Post Number: 133
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.134
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:15 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a Little Richard made for TV movie which starred Leon.
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Tony Russi (tony_russi)
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Username: tony_russi

Post Number: 271
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.210.7.192
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:58 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, I think sometimes the movies aren't made if their estate is not agreeing to the conditions & terms. I would rather NO movie be made then not to be done correctly. I also liked "La Bamba" although I was never familiar with the facts about Richie Valens and the same about the Buddy Holly Story.So many times these movie people take too many "creative" liberties with a story that it offends those that know the truth/facts ect.I look forward to this Ray Charles movie as I like Jamie Foxx and he is a good actor.
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
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Post Number: 1839
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Posted From: 65.43.145.122
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 12:36 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Juice & Cool Ju;
I saw that T.V. movie on Little Richard, it was pretty good.
S.S.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
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Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2594
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 56.0.103.25
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 2:01 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ju,

Yes, I taped that biopic of Little Richard starring Leon. I meant a MAJOR motion picture.

Tony,

I agree with you. Most of those flicks are so embellished & who knows the truth? I absolutely loved La Bamba. I saw it in the movies & since I already knew how it would end, I wanted to see how it would play out. I found it to be a bit stereotypical & a bit saccharine. It was as if he was a perfect kid with no flaws. The constant symbolism of the dreams, the symbolism of his brother ripping his lucky necklace off of his neck, rang a bit false to me. I also wondered just how much deep living a poor 17 year-old could have done? Nevertheless, I loved the movie!
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janebse (janebse)
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Post Number: 50
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Posted From: 68.63.7.73
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 4:36 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Versatality is the key for longevity. And on that note, Gaye wins.
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Cool Ju (cool_ju)
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Username: cool_ju

Post Number: 139
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.134
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 10:24 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd have to say Sam Cooke was more versitle than MG.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
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Post Number: 2676
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Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 11:15 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Ju,

You really think so?? In what ways? I always thought that Marvin was the ultimate chameleon. First, he was ths dance man, with songs like with Hitchhike & Stubborn Kind Of Fellow. Then, he was the balladeer. Then, he was the smooth dance master, with songs like How Sweet It Is, Your Unchanging Love & Little Darling. Then he was the sensitive duet singer, with Mary, Kim & Tammi. Then, he was "Fed-Up Man", with End Of Our Road & Grapevine. Then, he was socially conscious with What's Goin' On. Then, he was "Soundtrack Man", with Trouble Man. Then, he became the love doctor, with Let's Get It On & I Want You. Then, he became "Disco Marvin" with Got To Give It Up. Then, he became "angry man" on Here My Dear. Then he kinda became "Introspective Man", with In Our Lifetime. Then he became Lust Man" with Midnight Love.

He was on his way to becoming "Freak Man" when he died. If you read of the titles of the songs that he was working on at that time, you know what I mean. On the Dream Of A Lifetime LP, he had the song Masochistic Beauty. If you heard the lyrics, you see where Marvin was heading. I won't even state the original titles of Savfage In The Sack & Sanctified Lady from that LP. Trust me, Marvin was planning to get buck wild!
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Kdubya (paladin)
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Post Number: 379
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 9:09 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice let me come in here...Marvin was buck wild. I have to laugh at some of those lyrics...you know what I talking about when he joins the chorus with.."its geting bigger" dam he was a hoot. Who would have ever thought that Marvin would be as sinfully gross to sing about wanting some Sanctified P***y......in my humble opinion he was stone gone and had quite possibly had begun to embrace elements of hip hop as a means of expression. Rappers certainly embraced him, at this moment I dont recall the name of the rapper who remixed and added rap vocals to Marvins song, before he either fell, jumped or was pushed out a window, but the song was exquisite......"Just Like Music"....looping Marvins patented vocal rip was quite clever. A Very nice song.

Kdubya
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
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Post Number: 2690
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Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 10:36 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Kdub,

Erick Sermon (the green eyed bandit of EPMD) was the one who did that masterful job of remaking "Turn Up Some Music" & creating "Music" which is in my opinion, a classic in its own right. From what I understand, all is well with Erick & he is scheduled to have a new released on Nov 7th, titled "Double Or Nothing".
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Kdubya (paladin)
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Post Number: 384
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Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:47 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By Golly and Jumpin Jeepers thats it, I just couldn't remember his name. Sorry about that Temptation fallout affecting my vocabulary...it is what it is.....
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Cool Ju (cool_ju)
4-Laureate
Username: cool_ju

Post Number: 146
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 12:30 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kdubya, I don't think Marvin was embracing any elements of Hip Hop because Hip Hop was still in its infancy when Marvin died. There weren't any rap songs back then that explicity talked about "p***y" or used many, if any, profane words.

I think Marvin was just speaking in what some would call everyday language. Marvin was comfortable with himself as an artist so maybe he felt no need to sugar-coat the song, or maybe he just used that word because it fit best (it best expressed what he was trying to say).

BTW, I have only heard the "Sanctified Lady" version of the song, did the other version ("Sanctified P~~~y") ever come out?
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Cool Ju (cool_ju)
4-Laureate
Username: cool_ju

Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 12:35 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, Sam mastered the cornball supper club stuff that Marvin did not, IMO. Sam mastered Gospel and RnB/Pop. Everything Sam tried he was excellent at. I have to give the trophy to Sam for versitility.
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Kdubya (paladin)
5-Doyen
Username: paladin

Post Number: 389
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 1:04 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your reply, Thats alright CoolJu, sure Hip Hop was in its infancy and was commonly referered to as "Rap" but I was merely opinining that Marvin was quite the visonary as Juice so eloquently pointed out he had many different moods. I cant argue your point with any degree of specificity because I haven't did enough research (or remember)to name the artists and dates, however I'm almost certain that there were rap artists who were using certain vulgar terms during that time period. Maybe I should have stated it that way. But remember Cool Ju we've had artists in the Black Community using spoken word comedy for a long time from Blowfly to Rudy Ray Moore and they were down right profane. Secondly Marvin uses the term Sanitfied P in his song Santified Lady....listen closely and you can hear him say it in the end fade of the song. Hey Man do you remember the exhiliration you felt when the Isleys busted out "Fight The Power" everyone in my neighborhood would wait for the line "with all this bullshit going down" it was one of the records that changed the way we listened to radio. All of a sudden the powers that be had to have that cough/delay button at the ready .....radio has never been the same..LOL
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2711
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 2:12 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Ju!

Good point about the cornball supper stuff. However, I'll try to give a different point of view about the two men as artists.

First, Sam came out of the church & was taken under the wings of one of The Soul Stirrers, only one of the greatest Gospel groups of all time. Marvin definitely is at a disadvantage there.

Now, as for the Supper club music, you have to consider the following:

Sam's first secular music were recorded for White owned labels. Bob Keane of Keen records intended to make Sam a Pop idol. In spite of Sam's gospel background, Bob took Sam far away from that Gospel background & had him sing Pop. We must also consider the landscape for Black artists in those days. In Pop music, the most popular Black artists were basically those who sang standards & light airy ballads. The Black entertainers who were getting over at that time were singers like Nat King Cole, Johnny Mathis, Sammy Davis Jr. & Harry Belafonte.

As such, that was the model Bob Keane & Sam used, in attempting to break Sam as a Pop artist. Soul was not on Sam's initial agenda, as that wasn't where the perceived "real" money was. That was the sensibility of Bob & Sam.

The next label that Sam recorded for was RCA, a major White label. RCA was a label who had no real dealing with Black music as regards R&B. RCA was notorious for their deficiencies as regards promoting & selling Black music. They too, sought to make Sam a Pop idol. They paired him with Hugo & Luigi & Sam had more than a few problems with the direction that they tokk his music. Still, the idea was to make him a Pop star, not a R&B star. On the other hand.....

Marvin came up under the R&B icons, Harvey Fuqua & The Moonglows. That was where he got he initial schooling & from there, Harvey took Marvin along with him to Motown. Now, Motown was not a Pop label, not in the beginning. Motown recorded a lot of the Blues artists & rough R&B in the early days.

With that as a backdrop, Marvin wasn't groomed to be a Pop idol. Marvin was cast as a R&B dance artist & he didn't like it. He badgered Berry, until Berry relented & released that Pop Standards LP that Marvin wanted to do. When the LP flopped, that was the end of that experiment. The fact is that the fans didn't want to hear Marvin croon. They saw him as a R&B man & they wanted to hear Marvin sing his hits, not croon "In My Solitude". Marvin was hampered by that & the fact that Berry didn't see Marvin as a balladeering Pop artist.

As Sam came straight out the box & gained his initial acceptance & success as a Pop artist is the main reason for his success with the Supper Club set. And even that success wasn't immediate, as he totally flopped in his initial forays into that world. It wasn't until his date at The Copa, that he finally gained acceptance with that crowd & it didn't come easy. Regardless, Sam was marketed Pop, Marvin wasn't. Sam's Pop endeavors had the complete support of Keen & RCA. Motown didn't support Marvin in his Pop aspirations, nor encourage his either. Had he received Motowns' support, he could have accomplished it. We know that just wasn't the direction that Motown had in mind.......for Marvin, that is. Motown had that idea for another group, whom we know well.

I think that Marvin covered many bases & very well at that. Marvin was a Pop star in his own right, an R&B, then Soul star. He negotiated a little Funk & overcame Disco, which killed many careers. Sam never had to negotiate the landmine of Disco, though I believe that he'd have handled it as well. I just believe that Marvin's music had textures that Sam never got the chance to attempt. Whereas, Marvin's music embraced different rhythms, textures & emotions, Sam's music was pretty basic & not very complicated.

Marvin lived just long enough to try things that Sam didn't get the opportunity to try. The industry was a quite a bit different in Sam's day. In some respects, one might say that Sam not noly died too soon, but was born too soon as well. Could you imagine Booker T & The MGs, The Funk Brothers, Atlantic's Rhythm section, MFSB or the Hi Rhythm section playing behind Sam????

I love them both!
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 149
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 66.119.33.135
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:16 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, that was an excellent synopsis of the twists, turns, roads and routes these two icons took toward legendary status... Excellent, brother, excellent!

Oddly, Harvey Fuqua's thang, let's say, was actually pop, as his uncle Eddie had been a member of the Ink Spots... He didn't dig the MoonGlows being referred to as a DooWop group, according to RD, a former mainstay at this forum... As you correctly pointed out, in Marvin, as well as, Sam's era, Nat King Cole reigned as the MAN in terms of his style and pop crossover appeal, and many a Black Male artist saw him as their template for fianancial success in the industry.

For that reason, I don't hold it against either of these men for pursuing that route for their careers. In Marvin's case, I think it was kind of misguided because the era was clearly changing, but the guy was only 25 years old... We see, fortunately, that he became far more comfortable doing the kind of musical repetoire that he did best, particularly in his productions with the Originals... Superb! Stupendous sh--! I wonder if his work with Whitfield didn't finally provide the clincher for him in that regard???

I agree, Marvin was destined to be an artist with a much broader musical palate than Sam because of his life's experience... In other words, even though it was a cat like Sam that had opened up that Soul door for so many artists, Marvin's life experience only enhanced his ability to go far beyond what Sam would've even had he lived... That's a major speculation on my part, but I just think that people who live as Marvin did, and have the kinds of experiences with drugs, older and younger women, and other unmentionables, is just going to have a lot more to say about life in general(smile!)

Plus, I just think Marvin was a rebel without pause, and I don't think that was Sam's personality... Marvin's life was one bumpy road, and Sams' smooth and fast like the Audobon... For that reason though, while I think Sam's life would translate well to the big screen, Marvin's big screen story would be far more exciting... Read their biographies as an indicator...

All this having been said, damn I would've loved to hear these two do some duets together... That would've rocked the planet, and what a legacy it would've left for us music lovers... I remember Barry White talking about their discussions to this end prior to Marvin's untimely passing... While I think that would've been interesting, I think Marvin and Sam would've to' stuff up... I also think that Arruh and Marvin would've been a helluva duet, too... Marvin at 65 and Arruh at, what, 35 o0r 36... Sweet dreamin', that's all(smile!)

Peace!
isaiah
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2755
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 56.0.103.24
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:25 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah,

You said it better than I did & with much fewer words. I have to agree with your assessment. I cna't find anything else to add here.
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SisDetroit (sis)
6-Zenith
Username: sis

Post Number: 709
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.43.206.95
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:29 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Soul-wrenching, YES! But, I've thought this over for years. My decision is, I would keep Sam Cooke.
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Kdubya (paladin)
5-Doyen
Username: paladin

Post Number: 392
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:46 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dont even say that my brother, "R" and Marvin, no no, no, no, no, now Marvin and Sam that would have been something. Its a dam shame that comedian/activist Paul Mooney who in his younger days was a dead ringer for Sam Cooke couldn't get his movie made about Sam years ago.

I remember him trying to be taken seriously about getting the movie made and he certainly could have walked the walk and talked the talk. But I guess the world(insert Hollywood here) wasn't up to telling the story of one of the greatest and most influential black singers that ever lived. You'd think they would be ready now ?
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 150
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 216.148.246.92
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 1:27 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nah, they aint ready, Kdub - not yet!(smile) As a matter of fact, I think a flick about Marvin may well have moved farther up on the priority list due to him being fresher in the public's psyche...

You would think, however, that with the Spike Lee's and other African American filmmakers and entertainers out here, that there would exist a level of consciousness to do a film, or films on this order... What I have come to realize, Kdub, is that when a monster biography comes out about a personality, that usually leads to a film, or someone wanting to purchase the film rights... That did not happen with Sam's book, and I think that has been a problem...

One question, though, why no Arruh and Marvin?(smile!) You think that might brang all duh freaks out duh closet, huh?(LOL!)

Peace!
isaiah
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Kdubya (paladin)
5-Doyen
Username: paladin

Post Number: 393
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 1:43 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well let me say this, I have issues with the "R" and although he is a talented young male, he is certainly misguided and whoever his PR people and attorneys are well they need their collective asses kicked.

When he first came on the scene I had no idea he was as talented as he was, however the more I get to know about him the less I like him. I will not use this forum as my personal soap box but I have a very high regard for women in general and Black women in particular. At some point somebody has to stand up and say enough of this backasswards hip-hopped degradation of our women, our babies. I aint with it bro.....just aint with it......I also dont buy this self help go to see your friendly therapist bullshit....what he and a few others need is a good old fashioned ass whooping and if that don't work....well theres always Cook County Jail.....then we'll see who's a freak. If I have offended anyone with this post I apologize, but Imani you touched a nerve....LOL
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 151
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 66.119.33.135
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 2:30 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL! Feelin' ya, Bruh!

Peace!
Isaiah
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Kdubya (paladin)
5-Doyen
Username: paladin

Post Number: 394
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 4:28 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No problem, sometimes they just come out !!! LOL
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2758
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 5:15 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah,

Your point about Harvey is true. I don't know how I forgot about that element. Back in the days, Harvey's outfit was know for being extremely businesslike & for having one hell of a classy show. Harvey's sensiblities indeed were not that of the average R&B man. Harvey's eyes were always placed squarely on the business end of things. Many of us have forgotten that. I would compare The Moonglows to the fledgling version of The Blue Notes, who were prepped for the Supper Clubs, where they enjoyed great success, even without having the benefit of hit records.

As for Sam, I have a few thoughts. The reason why I feel there's no rush to make any movies about Sam Cooke, is that it just might open some closet doors, that have long been shut. Regardless of what anyone says, from the evidence that I read in various books & publications, Sam wasn't murdered for messing with no damn prostitute. Especially one, whom everybody recognized as being in the life & had been known to frequent the bars on that strip. As for the motel owner, there's no one on Gods' green earth, that can convince me that she didn't know Sam, who was only one of the more popular Pop, R&B & Gospel singers of that era.

A fifty something Black woman living in Cali, the land of the stars, had no idea who Sam Cooke was???!!!???. The biggest Black singer in town??? Yeah, right!!! I ain't buying it. When Sam died, they swept the case under the rug in record time. I do believe that given the flimsy evidence of both the motel owner & Ms Boyer, the alleged "rapee", there's much more to this story & someone didn't want it out there.

Another thing that I've considered, is Sam's budding relationship, with one Cassius Clay, who had recently become a Black Muslim. If anyone recalls the furor over Muhammads' conversion, you recall that he caught hell, not only from whites who was offended that this Black champion dare turn his back on Christianity, but a WHOLE LOT of Black folks were pissed as well. It was if he had slapped his mama, raped the dog & molested the town virgin.

I can imagine that some wiseguys, who had already had the Boxing championship wrested away from them, didn't appreciate a "you-know-what" with ambition, hanging with the devil called Ali. I can imagine some "gentlemen" being dispatched to "persuade" Sam to play ball. I can imagine Sam telling them to stick it where the sun don't shine. I can imagine that they decided to apply a little "hands-on" persuasion & it got out of hand.

I don't believe that murder was the intent initially. I believe that they were out to send him a message & perhaps persuade him into "sharing" some of his profits with them. However, upon meeting resistance from Sam, I believe that it went wrong from there. When you read the report of the injuries & the motel owners account of the events, as well as the angle at which the bullet pierced Sam, her account is simply unbelievable.

From everything that I read about it, as well as applying some basic common sense, that would be my guess as to what happened.

Yes, there is a story to tell & a whole lot of someones, didn't want it to be told.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2759
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 5:19 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Err, ahhh Kdub,

So, exactly how do you feel bro. Sounds like you're holding back a bit :-)
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marilyn (marilyn)
4-Laureate
Username: marilyn

Post Number: 98
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 147.174.1.24
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:46 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In times like these, I have no choice but to pick my personal favorite...This is like choosing between 2 luxury vehicles...Both great, beautiful, & classic...But, I'm going to have to go with my main man, Marvin...

I liked some of Sam's "supper club music"...he was a great interpreter & vocalist like Billie Holiday who could put his own spin on anything & make it sound good...

I don't know why, but Marvin just touches me more...It's like I have a deeper connection with his music...But, Sam had one of the most beautiful voices this side of the Earth...Just listen to a record like--Somewhere There's A Girl or Nothing Can Change This Love...

Kdubya, you're right that Paul Mooney would've played a great Sam...He looked so much like him in The Buddy Holly Story, I had to do a double take...What a handsome man!

Juice, I also think that Sam's life hasn't been made into a movie because of something going on behind the scenes...There's more to his story than meets the eye & certain people don't want it to be told...ever...As some of them may be still alive...With a movie, more speculation would stir & it might cause people to want to reopen Sam's case...I don't believe what that motel woman said is true either, I mean a woman that old handling a strong, healthy 33 year old man--yeah right! I believe the wiseguys paid off the police in the end...It looks like people are scared to get the whole truth out even after 40 years...Something is definetely up!

BTW, is Sam's last wife, Barbara, still living? Does anyone know what her take is on how Sam was actually murdered? I found it strange that she wanted the investigation to end & soon married Bobby Womack...

I also wonder why there hasn't been a movie made on Otis Redding, as there seems nothing would be stopping it from going into production, unless he was murdered, too...I think there's more to this story...I heard that before Teddy Pendergrass had his terrible accident, he was set to play Otis, that would have been great...

Man, we lost a lot of people in the '60s--Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, Martin Luther King, Dorothy Dandridge, Judy Garland, Marilyn Monroe, JFK, RFK,etc :-(

Marilyn
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Cool Ju (cool_ju)
4-Laureate
Username: cool_ju

Post Number: 148
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.134
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 3:48 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is an article in the current Maxim magazine on dead rock-n-rollers. They show Marvin's casket being carried out and a picture of Sam murdered lying on the floor.

(Message edited by Cool_Ju on October 08, 2004)
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Kdubya (paladin)
5-Doyen
Username: paladin

Post Number: 396
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 8:48 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice......I did hold back....but I think I got my point across. If I wrote as well as you I'd still be writing about lost and misguided sick ass black men but since that is not the subject of this thread I shall return to waxing poetic about the subject matter.

I agree with your asessment of Sam Cookes situation. Yes IMO Spike Lee should take a page out of Oliver Stones book and give it a go.....Marilyn most of the folk you mentioned would probably have some part in the movie. Yes the sixties were a violent time, hell anyone could and did get killed depending on their got dam politics......pure gangsta shhhhh......I bet you that if Medgar, Martin and Malcolm had to sit through a days programming of Black Empty Televison they would just sit down and cry....

Kdub
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einnod23 (einnod23)
3-Pundit
Username: einnod23

Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 208.27.111.121
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:54 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sam Cooke
Otis Redding
Jimi Hendrix

All three had some type of unprecedented control over their work. All three dead before the age of 35!!!!!! Makes ya go, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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Bob F (notsocool66)
2-Debutant
Username: notsocool66

Post Number: 28
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 209.86.76.171
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 4:53 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This afternoon I was relistening to "If You Don't Know Me By Now," by Harold Melvin and The Blue Notes, and if I had one piece to pick between Marvin and Sam, I would cheat and pick the Harold Melvin cut--it sure moves me.

I guess that I should have started a new thread, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to rebut on this topic.

And If I could just have a voice without music, it would be the woman's voice on "Love Won't Let Me Wait."

Speaking of which, I'm so happy to hear that Bobby Eli was discharged from the hospital!

Bob F.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2785
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 9:26 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HEY BOB!!!!

It's really great to see you back :-)
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Bob F (notsocool66)
2-Debutant
Username: notsocool66

Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 165.121.81.183
Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 8:39 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Helloooo Juice!! Thanks for the "welcome back." I'm surprised that you can remember anything what with the cranial punishment you've received in The Clubhouse! Thanks again, Bob F.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 152
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 66.119.34.39
Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 10:32 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, I never even gave credence to the thought about the mob being involved with Sam's murder, Juice, Marilyn, and Kdub... I never gave it a thought because how do we explain a Ray Charles or a James Brown living into their 70's, and no attempts being made on their lives... They were actually much more wealthy than Sam, and never allowed potential wealth to slip through their fingers with terrible business arrangements, as Sam did...

Of course, it does not disprove nor discount the theory, it just creates more questions for which there seems no answers... The fact they swept his murder under the rug, and treated him like just another N dead bespeaks American living to it's exhalted expectations... 40 years after Sam, the "exhaustive" police work in the Tupac Shakur and Christopher "Notorious Big" Wallace cases would show aint a damned thing has changed...

But, again, Curtis made more money than Sam, and owned his own label, and died rather peacefully in Atlanta, Ga, and Berry Gordy, who only owned the most lucrative independent label of its' time, and went on to make movies, was allowed to sell his company off, and while away his remaining years in unobstructed peace and opulence... I don't know that our theories hold substance unless a probable reason can be found for the mob, or any such group or individuals, to be so upset with Sam to want to do him bodily harm...

Yes, it is true that the protagonists and antagonists in this story likely all knew one another, and knew one another well, but that does not mean that he wasn't killed by old Bertha... Fact is, most people who are murdered, are murdered by someone they know - that's like in 90 some odd percent of the cases... Maybe these ladies had a plan to burn Sam for some paper, and bungled their caper when Sam peeped the move... Naturally, a woman of 55 years is gone panic with a man of Sam's youth and vigor, and state of undress coming at her... She knew it wasn't about no sudden sensual attraction...

I, like you folks, am wont to believe the so-called police version, which is no less than Bertha's version and Lisa's version all wadded up into a case of open-shut expedience... But, the Mob piece is something that folk will have to bring some facts to, to substantiate... Back in the day, that was a common thinking among African Americans, that powerful White folks didn't dig Sam associating with Ali or Malcolm... Ah, frankly, I don't think powerful White folks cared about these associations, really, and I dont know why Black folk thought that... Let's face it, the late 1950's and early 1960's were presenting the entire country and the world with deeper problems than any association between 2 talented and handsome entertainers - of any ethnicity... Like I said, I don't entirely discount NOTHIN', but I can't hang my hat on shreds of evidence...

Marilyn, I'm wit'cha on Somewhere There's A Girl... Sam's BEST song bar none!(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah
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Kdubya (paladin)
6-Zenith
Username: paladin

Post Number: 411
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 152.132.8.197
Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 10:51 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Simple Imani, different times, differrent places, different circumstances. As you pointed out with the Tupac/Biggie reference. Aint a dam thing changed......moreover the one thing that is consistent is the fact that "we don't know what happened" and until we do, imagination and speculation will win out in the absence of facts. I made a remark about Oliver Stone, because if nothing else his grand epic "JFK" certainly proved that the official version of what happened to JFK was freaking impossible. Thats why I tend to side with Juice about the possibility of foul play. Historically speaking we have always come up with the short end of the stick. Sam Cooke, Martin, Malcolm, JFK, who do you believe ? We just went to War because someone said ..."Heres a guy who has all these weapons of mass destruction and he is ready to release them upon the friggin world ! "Right !!!! Yes my friend the more things change ...the more they remain the same.

Kdubya
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Bob F (notsocool66)
3-Pundit
Username: notsocool66

Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 209.86.74.72
Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:09 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah pretty well summed it up for me: "all of underlying and overacrching reasons we have for our allegiances... It really is all subjective, and no one's going to PROVE one artist is better than the other... Even with indisputable proof of one artist's "superiority" over another, we gone love who we gone love, period... " And I'm gone love Sam Cooke because he provided a musical background for so many of my romantic encounters as a youth. I can't hear his voice without remembering every feature of a woman I was with at the time.

Bob F.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 2833
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:23 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isaiah,

I have to say the idea of the two ladies in question being in cahoots is a damn good idea. As Ms Boyer had practiced her "art" in the neighborhood, I can assume that Ms Bertha knew her well. I remember back in the day how they used to run a "Murphy" on unsuspecting tricks. Many a trick has been not so treated & I know that many scams were run, in cahoots with these motel owners. That is an altogether realistic scenario as well. The only differences that I can see between Curtis, Ray & Sam is this:

I think that Ray's being blind would have insulated him from some of the threats that might have faced Sam.

In Curtis' case, he was very socially conscious, but he was more from the school of Martin Luther King. He wrote more of brotherhood, self-empowerment, but he did so in a very nonthreatening way. Remember too, he didn't start writing songs that could be deemed as written for Blacks specifically, until Keep On Pushing, which hit in June 64. After that, he didn't have another such single until 1968's We're A Winner (which was released at the end of 1967). That was when he really got into the message songs. Before that, Curtis was recording basically songs about love.

A big factor in my way of looking at it, is that Sam had a bit of a temper. Sam didn't appear to be a pushover. I honestly believe that his friendship with Muhammad Ali, branded him as an "uppity negro" & a potential trouble maker, who might further incite the natives. I know that you remember the reaction to Ali joining the Black Muslims & how The Black Muslims were viewed at that time.

Think about it, 2 of the most popular & visible Black entertainers & icons, were having dealings with the Black Muslims. If you remember the 2nd Ali-Liston fight, there is a clip of Sam Cooke in the ring being hugged by Ali. While the reporter is trying to interview him, Ali proclaims that Sam Cooke was the greatest singer. One look at the reporters' face, speaks 1,000 words. First, they lost Ali, THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD, to the Black Muslims. Now, Sam Cooke was hanging with him??? I don't believe that was going over too well. Could you imagine how America would have felt & the implications, had Sam converted as well? The most popular Black artist & the Heavyweight Champ, representing America???? In those turbulent days of 1964????

Hmmmm.....I'm sure that some folks didn't like the thought & an arrogant, knowledgable Black entertainer, with his own publishing AND record label? I don't believe that they wanted Sam to potentially "infect" the music industry with singers who might have recorded songs with potentially inflammatory lyrics, that might further rouse the natives. I really believe that that what some folks feared would happen. You know how the Black Muslim Movement was in those days. They scared EVERYBODY, even most Blacks.

In the final analysis, anything is possible, all things mentioned sounds within the realm of possibility. Either way, what is clear is that this was covered up & swept away by the authorities. You could be right about your theory. If the motel owner practiced such things, there's no way that the police would have interfered. As it's certain that they would have known about the goings on, it's quite possible that for a small fee, they looked the other way & maybe got hit off with a little something extra, on the occassions, that they may have rolled a client with money.

For whatever reason, regardless of the scenario that we choose to believe, it's obvious that is was a coverup.
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isaiah imani (isaiah)
4-Laureate
Username: isaiah

Post Number: 154
Registered: 8-2004
Posted From: 170.224.224.92
Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 1:36 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sup Juice and Kdub, I'm in agreement that there was, and continues to be, a massive coverup in the Same Cooke case... After reading the biography, I wondered why in hell his family doesn't show him more love, and honor his memory by attempting to get this case re-opened... So many cold cases have been re-opened with satisfactory results, that I'd figure this one to fall right into that category... There'd be no one to punish, as it were, as Bertha is dead, and probably, so is Lisa, but it would resolve our speculations...

I'm glad you caught my assumptions about this one Juice... Yeah, I think Lisa and Bertha were confederates who'd burned a million tricks this way, and this one went awry... I know for a long time I refused to believe this was the case because I could not wrap my head around Sam pursuing this route toward sexual entertainment... It just didn't fit my perception of this cat paying for the c**tie(smile!) After reading the book, how his sexual liassons over the years had led to quite a few children he was paying support for, I understood the expediency of hiring our a hos machinery... As brassy as that sounds, I believe that might've been his logic and reasoning... He just didn't want to deal with the aftershock of his sexcapades, and so began to consort with hookers and call girls...

But, again, I don't discount the mob theories... I would just like to see more tangible evidence... Some years ago, when folk began to throw around the connections to the mob regarding JFK's assasination, we all raised our eyebrows... i think now that anyone who says there is NO connections between the assasination of JFK and the Mob is liable to raise some eyebrows... That's how it goes until we come across new information to substantiate any theories...

Peace!
Isaiah
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DTURNER@GRUDETROIT.USCG. (peanut757)
1-Arriviste
Username: peanut757

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 152.121.36.65
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:45 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a hard one. I like them both. I like "Somethin Stupid" by Marvin & Tammi, and I like "Thats where it's at" by Sam...The list could literally go on. It would have been better if Sam could have been with Motown anyways!!!!! Don't y'all think so???? The stuff that Sam Cooke did with my grandfather and the Soul Stirrers was great...They did a number called "Any Day"...great gospel song. But when he broke from them in about 1957, some stuff he did as far as R&B was kinda weak. (sorry) But!, he did have some classy ones too..."A Change is Gonna Come", "I love you for Sentimental Reasons", "We're having a party", "Nothing can Change this Love I have for you"...the list can go on....Marvin Gaye is still the man though...(I was only 1 when he was killed) but I heard Marvin a bit more than Sam around the house. Actually Marvin & Thomasine "Tammie Terrell" Montgomery. My favorites by Marvin and Tammi are "Aint nothing like the real thing", "Somethin Stupid", "It was a sad Wedding", "If I could build my whole world around you"....Marvin and Tammi are great...(Tell Diana Ross not to try that again! The chemistry that Marvin had with Tammi was not there with Diana...Sorry Di...She need to stick to Lionel Richie)...LOL...

!PEANUT!
DETROIT, MI

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