A quiet reflection on English Pop music

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Top of pageBottom of page   By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 04:18 pm:

I realise this is not the forum to bring this up, but I note with a touch of sadness that Tony Jackson, bass player for The Searchers died the other day in England. If my memory is correct--i haven't dug my copy of it out--he sang a terrific lead on "Sugar and Spice", a song covered by Chicago's Cryin' Shames. I've always loved British pop, "Needles And Pins" and "Sugar And Spice" being favorites of mine.
R.I.P. Mr. Jackson

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 06:30 pm:

Needles and Pinsssaaa!!! Man he will be missed I liked the Searchers too I have a couple of cuts by them..I like Gerry and the Pacemakers too and Hermans Hermits..I love discussing British Pop I dont think the forum would mind....I think one of the better songs by the Hermits is I Can Take Or Leave Your Loving and Museum.....I have all of their stuff. Peter Noone looks good for his age I have seen him live and believe me he is very talented and does a great Frankie Laine imitation when he sings Jezebel. WOW I have not heard anyone mention the Searchers in a long time they are underrated..
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By Stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 08:21 am:

Im moving this back up to the top because the Brits have been good to us in Detroit and for Motown and they are A BIG reason why this music continues and I think we should discuss our favorite British group these folks should not be ignored..
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 08:58 am:

I agree- the early British pop groups I remember, were indeed groups like Hermans Hermits and The Searchers. I am sorry to hear of Tony's sad passing, although I must admit I know very little about UK music to the degree I should. However, prior to my reggae and soul, I collected the typical UK releases like 'The White Plains' or Picketywitch (who sang a track called 'Number Wonderful' and I still do not know whether they were the original, after finding it on a Jay & The Techniques album). I used to live nearby to Brian Poole (Do you love me) and the Tremoles - remember them (Me and my life/silence is golden)? The shock was finding that many of the songs we heard were covers from the States! Talking of the Rolling Stones, Mr Jagger has a bad cold and has cancelled a couple of their performances this week. We are due to see them next Friday, in London. Do you remember Nero and the Gladiators? Their bass player works with with me. He has great stories - he keeps saying 'keep the bass simple'!

Top of pageBottom of page   By john dixon (68.58.167.167) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 09:10 am:

hey Doug, I hadn't thought about the Searchers for years until last week when I bought the latest issue of UNCUT magazine. The Byrds were the cover/feature article subject and the front-mounted CD that comes with the mag was Byrds-themed. Included on the CD was the Searchers version of Jackie DeShannon's "When You Walk Into The Room", which I've been playing over and over this past week.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph Terrana (ralph) (209.240.198.62) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 10:44 am:

the whole British Invasion thing was a shot in the arm to we musicians in the States. I remember Bill Williams, the owner of the Club Cliche, telling us guys in the Sunliners during the early days of the Beatles that this was going to be good for us. He was right. Prior to the Beatles, it was hard for a band to get a record going. It was all pretty boy singers ( the Bobby singers ) that were getting the breaks. Then things began to change thanks to the so called " Invasion ".

Top of pageBottom of page   By FrankM (81.152.61.38) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 01:18 pm:

Tony Jackson left The Searchers early in 1964 to go solo (with the Vibrations) his first two singles were
Bye Bye Baby/Watch Your Step (Pye 7N 15685) 1964 38
2 You Beat Me To The Punch/This Girl Of Mine (Pye 7N 15745) 1964 -

Can you see a Detroit connection. Yeap both covers of Mary Wells songs. The BBC did not play many records never mind Motown and the only other radio station Luxembourg could only be heard at night. I heard more Motown on Ready Steady Go on the TV than on radio. However Motown was introduced to a whole load of UK fans courtesy of beat groups playing dance halls. I'm sure there was a similar scene in the States with local bands competing with each other to do the best and first version of a Motown song down at the youth club.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 06:31 pm:

I think that the most talented of the British Invasion groups when it comes to singing and music was the Animals. I like the Stones but when you listen to the music that the Animals did and that sheer vocalism of Eric Burdon they were more exciting. Mick Jagger was not a great vocalist but he had a bad boy charisma about him that was undeniably acceptable to the teens in America and the Brits. I dont mention the Beatles because everyone knows they were great.
Lennon and McCartney had more imagination but I sometimes wonder was the genius of George Martin one of the reasons they sounded so great. Musically the Stones have more talent than the Animals but if you listen to We Gotta Get out of This Place and House of the Rising Sun, When I was Young, The Ballad of Bo Diddley, Dont Bring Me Down, Im Crying and more of those tunes musically and vocally the Animals were the most talented of the British invasion when it came to true grit and a raw sound.

When it came to the Pop sound Hermans Hermits wins hands down..Henry the Eighth, Shes a Must to Avoid, Kind of Hush,Listen People and more they were the best. For those of you who are familiar with the Hermits music they actually stayed on the charts when the British Invasion was over and didnt have a short shelf life like Freddie and the Dreamers and Gerry and the Pacemakers..I would venture to say that if they had stuck it out Gerry and the Pacemakers would have stayed around longer like the Hermits..the Searchers and Freddie and the Dreamers and PJ Proby didnt have the wit Gerard Marsden had. Dont Let the Sun Catch you Crying , How do You Do and Ferry Cross the Mersey are some of the most beautiful British pop tunes to come out of the British Invasion and I Like It and Its Gonna Be Alright.......When it comes to the wit of writing and British intelligence that honor goes to Ray Davies of the Kinks.

All of the day and All of the Night, Dedicated Follower of Fashion and Sunny Afternoon has that British Carnaby Street sound and there is no writer in Britain wittier than Ray Davies IMO..remember the Kinks came back strong in the 80s with Come Dancing and Dont Forget to Dance...and I remember seeing them on Ready Steady Go when they did Mr Pleasant and remember Lola. The Kinks were one of the first to come up with the concept albums as well Muswell Hillbillies , Face to Face (which is their best with Waterloo Sunset and Sunny Afternoon) The Kinks Lola VS the Powerman and others when it comes to lyrics and conceptualism Ray Davies wins hands down...the Kinks explored the wit of Carnaby Street and London and the Beatles didnt.

Now when it comes to the orchestral sound we have the Moody Blues and Procol Harum and these groups we really dont think of as being part of the British Invasion because they were so ethereal and were known more for being an album group than a singles group but its funny how Pink Floyd was the one that people come out and STILL come out to see all because of The Wall and Dark Side of the Moon. I would have to say when it comes to living off of ONE album Pink Floyd wins that round. When it comes to singles activity and not album activity the Dave Clark Five wins in that respect they put out TONS of singles that did well and the Hermits reign with them in that category but unfortunately Hermans Hermits are more remembered because Dave Clark didnt keep the group touring. The Dave Clark Five were offered TONS of money to get back together but Dave said no we want the public to remember us as we were and IMO that was not a bad move. He was a shrewd businessman and kept all of the guys comfortable...oh well any other takes,,,I love the british invasion,
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 07:54 pm:

Stephanie....
....remember, the Moody Blues started as a "blues" band, "Go Now" (Denny Lane lead and keyboard?) qualifying to me as blue eyed soul.
I agree on the Kinks, once they broke out of the "All Of The Night" mold with "Well Respected Man", a precurser to songs like "Sunday Afternoon" and "Superman".
But, my tastes run to the Searchers, Tremelos, and the way underappreciated Unit 4+2, whose "Concrete And Clay" is a gem of a recording.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 08:15 pm:

Steph,
Ya gotta give Mick Jagger his props when it comes to a Rock & Roll singer fronting a band. He kind of wrote the book on how to do it and after all these years he still looks like he knows what he is about on stage.

Top of pageBottom of page   By john dixon (152.163.252.68) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 08:21 pm:

I enjoyed your post very much, Steph, and felt so in synch w/ you, except for the "I'm Henry the VIII" part (errghh-o-mighty!). But the Hermits were a little too easily dismissed as lightweight, to be sure. Of course, they were never in the Beatles league. At least a couple of their songs suck, though: the aforementioned "..Henry the 8th" and "Leaning on The Lamp Post". I guess I could stand hearing "Mrs. Brown, You've Got A Lovely Daughter" a couple more times during my natural lifespan without a shudder of revulsion should it come on the radio. But that's still a great good/bad ratio. When I was about 12 and their movie, "Hold On" came out, I saw it several times. I was probably trying to recreate the frisson of my "A Hard Day's Night" moviegoing experience. Their choice of material was excellent. They had a Top Ten with a Kinks song, Ray Davies' "Dandy".

I'm with you on Ray Davies, Steph: a huge fan of early and mid-period Kinks. It's amazing to me how few are familiar with their mid-period, "We Are The Village Green" material. But those that know it are fanatical about it, know what I mean? At that time, for some fairly innocuous reason that I can't recall, the Kinks were banned from performing in U.S.A., a ban that lasted for several years. And as the psychedelic era began and Ray refused to play along, commercially the Kinks were in the wilderness for awhile. Still, Ray Davies most compelling songs were written during that period.

The Animals were TOUGH. For awhile there, Eric Burdon, Alan Price and CO. were kicking the Rolling Stones' ass. But Eric had to become a Hippie and wax major dreckage ("San Franciscan Nights"-Lord help me, I bought that!). In the same musical bag and on a par with the Animals was Them, Van Morrison's group of Belfast r'n'b cowboys. Van couldn't compete w/ Mick Jagger or even Eric in the image dept. But the great music remains.

The Dave Clark Five were even bigger than the Beatles for a nanosecond and their records still hold up well because singer Mike Smith, like Eric Burdon and Stevie Winwood, had an r'n'b authenticity that wasn't at all tied to English music hall conventions.

Through some fairly silly connection like reading about them in a 16 or Tiger Beat magazine, I had become a big fan of the Who before they really broke commercailly in the U.S. When an upcoming appearance on The Smothers Brothers TV show rolled around, I told everyone at school, "That group that I keep going on about, the one with name you all snicker at, will be on after Ed Sullivan this Sunday night". Of course that night was the infamous occasion when the Who smashed and blew up everything, even Tommy Smothers' guitar! The next day, nobody was snickering about the Who anymore and my opinion was rightfully accorded much respect, well at least with all the guys!

Pink Floyd, Procol Harum, and the Moody Blues (when Justin Hayward joined) should be considered groups of the psychedelic era, which was a clear demarcation, or breakaway, from the mid-60's British Invasion. Musically, Procol Harum didn't sound psychedelic; Gary Brooker sang soulfully but all those cryptic, impenetrable Keith Reid lyrics warrants their inclusion as such.

This thread may be miles off subject, but thanks, doug, for starting it anyway!
Peace y'all
John

Top of pageBottom of page   By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 10:08 pm:

John....
....I think the Kinks didn't perform in the US due to a union problem of some kind, although I don't know the details. Favorite Kinks song, "Victoria".
Yes, this thread is miles off the subject, and I didn't expect this kind of response, but everytime I read or hear of an artist who performed when I was young(er), I feel a touch of sadness, no matter the genre.

doug

Top of pageBottom of page   By Fury13 (12.2.196.17) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 10:20 pm:

"I'm Henry The VIII I Am" is actually punk rock. Underrated and brutally, moronically simple. But that's the fun of it. I can imagine the Ramones doing it, cranked up to "11" of course.

Top of pageBottom of page   By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 10:29 pm:

Stephanie and John;
I agree with you on the Kinks. Another really solid underrated album by them is "Muswell Hillbillies". Ray Davies could write, for sure. Was "Waterloo Sunset" on a version of "Face To Face" ? I have it on "Something Else".

Also, re; Eric Burdon- when watching old videos or Ed Sullivan type reruns, its amazing how good a vocalist Burdon is live , even on cheesy TV shows, much better live than most rock vocalists.

Steve K

Top of pageBottom of page   By SteveS (68.41.250.190) on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 11:42 pm:

John,

We might have had this conversation back on errggh, but thanks anyhow for confirming my recollection that the DC5 were huge for a brief minute. When the British invasion first hit, the girls in my school dug the Beatles, but the guys were all totally sold on the DC5.

Never will understand the abrupt transition of the Animals. Every tune on their 1st album was a must-play for any 60's garage band, and then phhhffft...Sky Pilot. Go figure!

Top of pageBottom of page   By john dixon (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 09:18 am:

Fury13, "I'm Henry VII"--punk rock? That's a revelation to me; this might require a new personal assessment. I was already in full accordance with the brutally moronic aspect of the song!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Bong-Man (198.111.56.15) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 10:39 am:

...and just about every one of those British pop songs you mentioned featured Jimmy Page on electric guitar. It's estimated he played on over 300 singles....at times 90% of the British output. John Paul Jones and Jimmy Page are all over those Herman's Hermits records. In fact when Mickey Most passed away recently, it was mentioned that the only British band in his stable that was allowed to play all their own instruments was "The Animals"....and Jimmy played on a few of those (Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood). John Paul Jones did most of the arranging for Mickie Most, including, Lulu, Jackie Deshannon, Petula Clarke, Hermits, and many more.

Top of pageBottom of page   By mhc (151.196.57.162) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 11:51 am:

I agree with everyone who has said good things about The Animals. History has given them short shrift because they weren't songwriters, but GOD! they were great. It doesn't matter how many times I've heard "House of the Rising Sun", it still always rips me apart..

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 12:11 pm:

No no, SteveS,

You have the wrong gender breakdown, re the Dave Clark Five.

Girls were crazy for the Beatles, sure, but the Dave Clark Five were girl favorites as well, I wasn't the only one to be totally DC5 crazy.

Mike Smith was adorable! He not only could sing but he was wildly cute. When I was at the RNR Hall of Fame a few months back and saw that he was going to play there on a tour I almost resolved to drive back for the show. Alas he didn't play Detroit.

Dave was a chick magnet too, and what really put them over the top at the time is that they did so much upbeat dance music for parties, plus they paid total props to Motown. So their sound fit in on Detroit radio well.

minor note: Springsteen is a huge Dave Clark Five fan ...

Top of pageBottom of page   By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 12:13 pm:

The Animals did a nice version of "Shake" too ...

Top of pageBottom of page   By John K. (67.249.46.191) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 01:15 pm:

Eric Burdon played in Louisiana recently, maybe in April. Burdon gave it his all and it was a great show. He's as good as he ever was, even he did sit down for part of the show. I also heard an interview with him on the public radio program "Fresh Air." Very enjoyable and he obviously loves American blues and soul.

Top of pageBottom of page   By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

My favorite Animals period would be the "Its My Life" "We Gotta Get Out of this Place" "Don't Bring Me Down" era. The post "Rising Son" pre-psychedelic era. They grafted a lotta soul on to some killer pop songs - a blues/Brill Building fusion. Even on a lot of the psychedelicized stuff the vocals are really good.

Steve K

Top of pageBottom of page   By soulboy (213.105.224.4) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 04:11 pm:

IMO the Animals were the closest us Brits ever got to on a raw american R&b sound. Eric burdon - what a voice!!
Many other british bands in the mid-late sixties also sought to imitate the detroit type sound, like the foundations(4tops soundalike),the love affair(robert knight covers), and amen corner (bend me,shape me)- a blatant rip-off of smokey's more of your love.and what about those early small faces records? these are just some examples,but they just illustrate how influencial and important the soul sounds of day were to the pop charts of the era.

Top of pageBottom of page   By David Meikle (81.109.33.162) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 04:28 pm:

I remember seeing the Kinks in Glasgow in 1966.

They were fantastic.

David

Top of pageBottom of page   By john Lester (81.132.203.192) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 04:35 pm:

I am from East London and my local groups were Brian Poole and the Tremeloes and the Small Faces fro that era.

The Tremeloes....reached number one with their version of "Do you Love Me".........and I am now so embarrassed to admit that my mum bought it. If memory serves me right, the DC5 did it as well. My favourite from the DC5 was Lenny Davidson....he wasn't quite as "cute" as DC and Mike Smith but he sure could sing.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 06:29 pm:

Hey Folks:
I just got back from my biz trip to Detroit/Chicago/St. Louis...So sorry to hear about Tony's passing.

The Searchers were one of my favorite British bands. I have a clip of them performing "Love Potion #9" on "Hullaballoo".

I agree with the Burdon fans about the Animals..they did have a tough, bluesy sound. I enjoyed Alan Price's keyboard work when he was in the band.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By David Meikle (81.109.33.162) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 06:35 pm:

Nice to hear from you again kevin.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 07:00 pm:

Thanks, David!
I just sent you an email regarding Darrell Banks. I'll be here on the computer for a few more minutes.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By David Meikle (81.109.33.162) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 07:07 pm:

Kevin

These things take longer to get around the WWW these days.

Your message not here yet, need to go to bed soon :-))

David

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 07:11 pm:

Sorry, David!
How should I send you my donation toward the Darrell Banks headstone. I can contribute $25.00.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By David Meikle (81.109.33.162) on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 07:17 pm:

Thanks Kevin

I'll contact you off-board.

David

Top of pageBottom of page   By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 08:34 am:

Last night at home was a 'European/US' oldies night to celebrate some of the older music stuff I have from my childhood days on the theme of this thread. The menu included Venus/Shocking Blue, Jesamine/The Casuals, My baby loves lovin'/White Plains and American Pie/Don MaClean. Not strictly 60's, but nevertheless songs that have memories for me. It seems that many of these tunes get forgotten and never see the light of day on the oldies stations.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ritchie (62.254.0.32) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 09:31 am:

Dept of useless information... funny you should mention the Casuals, Carl... They were (my adopted domicile) Lincoln's only notable contribution to British Music history. Their one hit 45 gives them a kind of legendary status around here. They seem to have almost as many Nth anniversary reunions as Fairport Convention, which are excitedly reported by the local rag as major musical events. (Well, not much happens around here!)

Top of pageBottom of page   By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 10:06 am:

Ritchie - I love the song. It will always be in my collection. They were innocent times for me, along with my Tri-ang Hornby 00 gauge train set, my collection of foriegn coins and recorder.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:47 am:

Im soooo glad you didnt forget Van Morrison and THEM John!!! I love Here Comes the Night, Morrision didnt have the grit when it came to the image but you are right he had the soul!!! I mean Moondance and Brown Eyed Girl and even when he was not having singles he was a critics darling and his albums continued to go gold on sheer word of mouth alone......Sue I didnt know Bruce Springsteen was a Dave Clark Five fan!!!

Ralph,
You are right Mick Jagger has to be the prototype for any rock music singer he STILL commands the stage and is going stronger thank Roger Daltrey and others....what is really a shame is we had to lose Chas Chandler of the Animals and John Enwhistle of the Who. Those guys were quiet but important like Charlie Watts is to the Stones.

I have seen Eric Burdon live twice and Im telling you the man still has the chops and is still going strong when I was a little girl I had a crush on him and I dont know why..LOL

i didnt know that unit four plus two was a british group hmmmm the things you learn...
Remember the Swedish Invasion with Tee Set "Ma Belle Amie" one of my fave records with Venus also and the group Shocking Blue!!! One group that is still going strong over in the UK and to my understanding is still touring is Status Quo -Pictures of Matchstick Men what a record!!! I love the brits man when it comes to rock and soul they know it all,,
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

Stephanie:
You'll be happy to know that Van "The Man" Morrison has signed with Verve Records here in the USA. His next album will be in a vocal jazz mode (think "Moondance" in the 21st Century!).

Bruce Springsteen is a known 60s-rock fan (no wonder since he grew up listening to the music)who wrote tunes for Gary U.S. Bonds' comeback hits in the 1980s ("This Little Girl", "Out Of Work"). Even Bruce's 1981 Top Ten hit "Hungry Heart" sounds like it was cut in the 1960s - maybe "The Boss" was listening to his Motown collection for inspiration?? (Hmmm....)

Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 03:12 pm:

KevGo
Thank you sooo much!!! Springsteen aounded like the Wall of Sound with Hungry Heart and its no secret he was a Spectorphile..by the way is Phil Spectors trial coming up anytime soon?
Stephanie


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