By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:04 pm:

IF BERRY GORDY WAS JUST STARTING OUT TODAY, WHICH ACTS OF TODAY DO YOU THINK HE'D BE INTERESTED IN SIGNING TO MOTOWN ? IF ANY.....

By Brandi1978 (152.163.252.68) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:15 pm:

None because the artists today doesn't show any originality,creativity or actual singing or performing ability.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:17 pm:

I THINK THAT BERRY WOULD TAKE THE BEST OF THE RAW TALENT OUT THERE...THEN GROOM THEM TO HIS OWN LIKING AND GIVE THEM THE TRAINING AND COACHING THEY NEEDED TO BECOME THE TYPE OF ARTISTS HE WANTED THEM TO BE!!!...STUBASS

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:34 pm:

STUBASS: BUT IS THERE ANYONE CURRENTLY ON THE CHARTS THAT MAY CATCH HIS EYE/EAR ?

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:41 pm:

I DON'T REALLY KNOW DELL...BUT PERHAPS THE BERRY GORDY OF TODAY WOULD BE PRODUCING RAP ARTISTS (PERISH THE THOUGHT)!!!...STUBASS

By Eli (152.163.252.68) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:44 pm:

I would have to say none, because he believed in a standard of excellence and originallity and no one of the current crop of "artists" would make the grade.

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

ELI: WHAT ABOUT BOYZ II MEN, HE MAY BE ABLE TO SHAPE THEM AND JAHEIM, STRONG VOICE ALMOST A THROW BACK, ASHANTI AND BEYONCE I'M NOT SO SURE OF BUT KELLEY PRICE AND MONICA COULD HAVE A REMOTE CHANCE. I DO BELIEVE HE WOULD HAVE JUMPED ALL OVER EN VOUGE, TEVEN CAMPBELL WOULD HAVE A SHOT ALSO

By Eli (152.163.252.68) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 02:28 pm:

Ny-Del,

You said artists of "today" so I am using that as a reference.

Jaheim would need to bag that thugged out image for Berry to take notice.

En Vogue were ten years ago and Boysz to men hit their peak on their second album.
Forget Ashanti and Beyonce..all image..no substance.
Tevin would have worked if it were ten years ago and Kelly , maybe with better songs to give her wider recognizabiliyl.

Berry Gordy(and company) had the talent and the forsight to put the right ingreadients together to make it work.

If I were B.G. the first thing that I would do would be to "bag the bling" and teach newcomers a brand new set of values to abide by.

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 02:44 pm:

ELI; OK I AGREE 100% ABOUT JAHEIM, PLUS I'D LIKE TO HEAR HIM SING WITH A GROUP INSTEAD OF SOLO, I ALSO AGREE ABOUT KELLY PRICE, AFTER THINKING THIS THING OUT I REALLY CAN'Y THINK OF ANYONE ELSE, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE STATE OF MUSUC TODAY ?

By einnod23 aka DF (208.27.111.121) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 03:40 pm:

A better question would be, "If Berry Gordy were starting out today, would he think like today, or would he think like the Berry Gordy of the 1960s"? Not an easy question to answer. People think that he would have had a "60s mentality", But I don't know about that. Remember, people back then thought that Motown was sellout pop music, just like many of us 60s fans think that the music today stinks!. Let's be real on this, y'all! Peace.

By stephanie (64.63.221.126) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 04:30 pm:

I admire BG for what he did but I dont think the assembly line thing would work today. I think Gamble and Huff would have an easier time today dealing with these nuts out here. If Berry could relinquish a little of the control and let some of the groups be creative like Stevie Wonder and Marvin he would stand a chance. I dont think HE would even like the music of today. Labels like Arista and Epic (in their heydey) were doing the things that Motown (not until the early 70s) wouldnt do. There was some creative control like Sly and the Family Stone..etc...some of these artists today not only need guidance but some major overhauls in talent!!!!!

Berry wouldnt let these girls go out looking like whores and prostitutes even Grandmaster Flash and RUN DMC didnt promote this kind of stuff. I blame the record companies and the executives for all of this they could turn it around if they wanted to., Yeah Berry Gordy wanted money but unlike some of the other record labels in his day he wanted his artists to finish school and he DID send them to Artist Development and Charm school and gave them life skills they could use in the future,,.........He couldnt deal with this unruly bunch unless they were trainable and coachable,,
Stephanie PS The assembly line stuff cant work today because there are no instruments to make it work if there were maybe he could do it..

By motownboy (67.124.68.243) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 04:38 pm:

The equivalent of an Artists Devlopment & Charm School these days would translate into "girls go out looking like whores and prostitutes." Haven't you seen the E! Entertainment Channel and what is shown on MTV these days???

Never mind that singing talent is no longer required.....

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 05:30 pm:

I THINK A MAJOR PROBLEM TODAY IS THAT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER IS MUSICALLY UNEDUCATED THEY REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE ABOUT WHAT MUSIC IS, MORE OR LESS GOOD MUSIC. A FACT THAT I FIND HARD TO BELIEVE WHEN SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE GREW UP IN HOMES HEARING GREAT MUSIC. BACK IN THE 50's 60's AND 70's EVERY KID IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHETHER THEY COULD SING OR NOT KNEW HARMONY AND WHAT SOUNDED GOOD. IS THIS JUST A CASE OF NOT WANTING TO HEAR YOUR FATHER'S MUSIC, I DON'T THINK SO, I BELIEVE IT'S A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT. BERRY GORDY AND HIS ASSEMBLY LINE CONCEPT COULD WORK TODAY IF THE ARTIST HAD MORE CREATIVE FREEDOM AND WAS MORE FINANCIALLY REWARDING THAN WHAT IT WAS BACK THEN. BERRY'S VISION IF HE WAS STARTING OUT TODAY WOULD BE EVEN MORE INTENSE THAN WHAT IT WAS THEN. HE SAW WHERE MUSIC WAS HEADING ONE OF THE REASON'S HE WANTED OUT, I FEEL HE WOULD HAVE PICKED THRU MOST OF THIS GARBAGE AND FOUND SOMETHING AND MADE IT FLOURISH. REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER SHORTCOMING HE HAD THE MAN HAD VISION.

By Des (81.152.91.76) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 06:15 pm:

Einnod23 articulates some of what I feel in response to this Thread.
Trying to apply BG's strategy in America today would work with the tiniest percentage of young Black Americans imaginable.
Sadly,but clearly,the unsophisticated,thuggish,sluttish and inarticulate image carries weight with a disenfranchised Black youth. The 'bling' thing is terminal and I certainly think that whilst decent music doesn't sell in the vast quantities of the 60's-early 80's,that's because of MTV and the ongoing fragmentation of 'the Markets'.
If you take it as a fact that BG wanted a White audience as well as a Black one - how could he position a Black American act in a way that wouldn't alienate them from young Black America of today - Answer:He couldn't....no-one seems to think it's worth trying anyway.
So - does that mean there's no good music out there -- No,it doesn't and some of the comments here ignore the less-successful,but niche players that have had a measure of success,but not enough to be supported contractually,in some cases.Examples:
Raphael Saadiq (including Tony Toni Tone & Lucy Pearl)
Jill Scott
Angie Stone
India Arie
Rahsaan Paterson
Craig David
Musiq (yes,Musiq)


Additionally,I'd argue that,as in the old days,Producers/writers are still around who use less than talented vehicles to get damn good songs into the market and they sell on the songs AND the image.Examples:
TLC (Dallas Austin)
Jam&Lewis (JJ and whoever they work(ed) with)
The Neptunes - occasionally -- I really like Pharrell Williams current "Frontin'" and(although the album was deeply disappointing) I also like the cut by Clipse "Ma,I don't Love Her"
The various Producers on the Kelly Rowland project

I know I'm flying in the face of most posters....but it is just not right to dismiss everything right now.It's never been the case and it never will be the case that "there's nothing good nowadays"
Des

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 06:44 pm:

DES: HOW GOOD CAN IT REALLY BE IF IT CAN'T BE DUPLICATED (with the tinest bit of success, I'm not asking for much) LIVE

By Des (81.152.91.76) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 07:16 pm:

NY-DELL
THAT'S a very good point.
I've only seen the first batch of artists performing 'live' in tv studios (except Musiq - never seen him in that situation).They are uniformly capable of replicating their studio product.
The 'manufactured artists' in the second list is a different matter. You're right to be dismissive when judged on that criteria and,frankly,I'm not arguing over your well-made point.
It's fair to say that these 'manufactured artists' shouldn't perform 'live' as it most often blows away the good impression the hit record(s) made.....and,I insist,the records remain to be enjoyed.
But don't get me wrong,virtually talentless artists - blessed with good looks and 'right place,right time' good fortune - won't survive long......but the songwriters/producers (to whom I refer) will move on to their next studio-crafted gem - and I'll look forward to seeing those people develop. NY-DELL,I'm trying not to appear like I'm defending those no-talent people,but I AM defending the position that the records are still out there to enjoy.
If 'live' replication is a 'must' - then I totally accept your point and retreat to my foxhole and await further villification.
Des

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 08:17 pm:

NY-DELL:
If I may chime in on the average consumer being musically uneducated, since I've spent almost 15 years in record retail.

First of all, there's radio (another field I spent many years working in). Radio stations are not so much concerned with playing music that is good or bad - they want to make sure folks are listening to the commercials. The radio DJs today don't announce records as often as those in the past for the dumb assumption that their listership (should already) know what's being played. So there's ignorance there.

Second of all, the media and it's critics. God knows how many times I've heard from customers "Well if it got a great review in the New York Times it must be good." No - it means that the reviewer liked it, it doesn't mean the reader will. I've seen some good reviews for CDs that the consumer wound up returning because they didn't like it and they said, "Well, John Foster (not his real name) for the Daily News said it was good...."

Finally, I found that many customers in CD shops want the sales clerk to tell them what they should buy because they don't want to spend the time to hear if it's good or not. Many larger record stores offer CDs on listening posts yet people don't even want to spend 30 seconds to hear one song. They want to get some new music and get out.

On the other side of the coin, there are customers who are musically educated and know what they like (or dislike). These folks are older and grew up listening to what we now call classic rock or soul or jazz or blues. Or they are younger and grew up listening to their parents or older siblings' music collections. The problem? They want new music that is like the stuff they grew up on. For the exception of a few veterans who are still out recording and some of the new jacks/jills who have picked up the torch, the pickings are indeed slim. That's why stores like Tower do so well with their "two-or-three-for-whatever-the-low-price-is" sales - this is mostly older catalog they are moving.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By medusa (66.73.5.78) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 09:29 pm:

I think he would B interested in me and "NO" I'm not bragging, but I do carry a tune pretty well...(If I may say so myself)...and I'm sure a lot of U out there can do a lot of things that would intrerest Berry Gordy...Y'all know it.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 09:52 pm:

Medusa - email me an MP3 of one of your songs and let me put it on the web page named "Soulful Detroit" Event.

By medusa (66.73.5.78) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:10 pm:

Hahahahaha,
SisDetroit, I only have a Karaoke with my voice on it. My son did record my voice on a CD, (pro tools), but I had a cold and was a bit hoarse. I guess U can still have an idea of what medusa sound like.
I'll make another one and send it 2 U, how about that? do U have a P.O. Box or?
E mail me~~~~~~~~~~~~~medusa

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:36 pm:

HEY KEV!!!...THE ANNOUNCING OF RECORDS THESE DAYS...AND FOR THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS...HAS BECOME A PART OF THE SANITIZATION AND COOK BOOK PROGRAMMING OF RADIO!!!...IN THE OLD DAYS...THE ONLY REAL *EXPERTS*...TO TELL THE DJ'S HOW TO ACT... WHAT TO SAY... AND WHEN...WERE PRETTY MUCH THE DJ'S THEMSELVES!!!...TODAY'S SOPHISTICATED AND "SCIENTIFIC" PROGRAMMING IS FORMATTED IN SUCH A WAY AS TO BECOME RECOGNIZABLE AND CONSISTANT...THUS "FRONT SELLING"...THE ANNOUNCING OF ARTISTS AND/ OR RECORDS BEFORE THEY'RE PLAYED...VERSUS..."BACKSELLING"...MAKING THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS FOLLOWING THE PLAYING OF THE RECORDS!!!...IT'S ALL A PART OF THE RESPECTIVE STATIONS PROGRAMMING PHILOSOPHY AND GAMEPLAN!!!...IN OTHER WORDS...THE SPONTINAIETY THAT EXISTED IN RADIO IN THE 50'S...60'S...AND INTO THE 70'S...HAS BEEN LOST TO CORPORATE MANIPULATION!!!...I THINK WE'VE DISCUSSED THIS BEFORE!!!...STUBASS

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 10:57 am:

STUBASS: WHO ACTUALLY MAKES THE DECISIONS ON WHAT IS PLAYED, AND HOW MANY TIMES IT'S PLAYED AND HOW IT'S PRESENTED AT RADIO STATIONS, WHAT CRITERA IS USED TO MAKE SUCH DETERMINATIONS.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 11:21 am:

NY-Dell:
It depends on the radio station and whether they are a part of a larger corporate entity.

For example, a cluster of radio stations would get their programming orders from a Vice-President of Programming who in turn determines what gets played (and what doesn't) on having a record "researched".

A recording is "reseached" via telemarketing (a phone operator would call a household to find out whether the resident fits into the stations' target audience and would play audio clips of songs to find out whether the resident knows the song or likes it).

Another way a record is "researched" is through the "auditorium method" (a group of folks who fit the station's desired target sit in a theatre and listen to clips of songs; they have to indicate whether they know or like the song).

All of this information is compiled into a database and voila! The station's music programming has been determined.

Another way a song gets on the air is through the way of independent promotion. These folks are paid by the record companies to get their records onto the radio stations they desire. Now, the magic question - "Is this payola?" Well, it is BUT in the eyes of the industry it's "legal" payola because they are not paying the radio stations - they paying the independent promotion folks. Well, this has become such a hot issue that one radio conglomerate has pledged to pull out of the practice. Yet, even their timing was suspicious because Congress was investigating this practice and had these folks under the microscope.

The only commercial radio stations that will actually take a chance and play a new release on the air to find out whether their audience likes it or not is in your smaller radio stations in small to medium-sized towns across the USA. These stations may or may not have large ratings and the town (based on size & population) may only have one ratings book per year (Ithaca NY - where I went to college - for example). When I worked in a smaller commercial station in the mid-late 1980s we played so many great songs that otherwise would not have made it in larger cities (Van Morrison's "Someone Like You" & "Somewhere Down The Crazy River" by Robbie Robertson, for example) and this station in particular (WQNY-FM) was Ithaca's #1 radio station.

I hope this answers your question, NY-Dell. I'm sure Stubass can add to this as well.

Kevin Goins - KevGo
(formerly of WVOR-FM/WHAM-AM - Rochester, NY and WQNY-FM - Ithaca, NY)

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 11:36 am:

Gawd, I hated music call day. A perfectly good waste of 3 hours.
Kev....
....was WQNY-FM a Triple A station? They (we did-KKRV-FM, Wenatchee, WA) seem to have the most interesting music lists. One thing that makes smaller markets more fun and less reliant on pluggers is they don't generate enough record sales to be of interest to promotion men unless they report to R&R.

As to the actual playing of the record, once it's selected, it's plugged into a scheduling software package (kind of like a computer format clock) which chews information like tempo/male-female-group/rotation (heavy? light? once in a blue moon?)/length/daypart/and spits out a cut list for the next week. All of a sudden, index cards look a lot better......
Stu, take it from here......please.....

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 11:50 am:

DELL!!!...KEVGO AND DOUG HAVE NAILED THE EXPLANATION IN THE AREA'S TO WHICH THEY'VE SPOKEN!!!...JUST TO ADD A COUPLE OF THINGS!!!...CERTAIN FORMATS ARE...AS KEV STATED...FORMULATED IN A COPORATE OFFICE...AND...FOR EXAMPLE...THE "QUITE STORM" FORMAT CAN BE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL IN VARIOUS CITIES OR MARKETS...ALL AT STATIONS OWNED BY THE SAME CONGLOMERATE...OR HAVE PURCHASED THAT PARTICULAR FORMAT FROM IT'S CREATORS!!!...DURING MY RADIO DAYS...OUR STATIONS HAD ON STAFF BOTH A PROGRAM DIRECTOR (THE BOSS)...AND A MUSIC DIRECTOR!!!...THE MUSIC DIRECTOR RESEARCHED THE MUSIC...AND KEEP TRACK OF WHAT NEW RELEASES SHOULD BE SLATED FOR AIRPLAY!!!...THE PROGRAM DIRECTOR MADE THE FINAL DECISION ON WHAT GOT PLAYED AND WHAT DIDN'T...AND HOW FREQUENTLY!!!...MANY STATIONS MIX THEIR FORMAT...CURRENTS(CURRENT HITS AS THE NAME IMPLIES)...RECURRENTS...(NOT QUITE READY FOR THE OLDIES BIN)...AND OLDIES (SOLID GOLD)!!!...BEING A CRUISE SHIP DJ...I USED WHAT I LEARNED FROM MY RADIO DAYS AS TO TEMPO AND STYLE MIX...SO THAT A LISTENABLE ROTATION WAS PRESENTED TO THE LISTENER (OR DANCER)...YOU GOTTA LET EM COOL DOWN AT SOME POINT!!!...THIS ALSO MUST BE MIXED IN WITH STOP SETS (COMMERCIAL BREAKS)...NEWS/COMMUNITY AFFAIRS...AND OTHER BROADCAST MATERIAL!!!...SO IT'S A JUGGLING GAME...AND A GOOD PROGRAM DIRECTOR IS WORTH HIS/HER WEIGHT IN GOLD!!!...STUBASS

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 11:58 am:

THANK YOU GUYS.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 12:03 pm:

News? "Don't forget, coming up at the top of the hour, our crack two man news team Rip and Read with all the headlines...."

After everything else has been done, you take the music disk and merge it with a format sentry style program which inserts the breaks, spots, news, and etc., print out a cut list (which includes where the breaks are with time cues) and hand it to the jock, saying something inspiring like "here's your show", and load the whole bloody mess into the programing computer. The jock cuts his liners...."it's a gorgeous afternoon in Wenatchee, Michael Morgan keeping you company on your drive home from work.... (keeping in mind it's 9AM real time)", and he loads his part into the computer, which then mixes the whole thing together into the sound you hear on the radio. That is, unless the programing is delivered via sattelite from, say Dalas, or Seattle, or god knows where.....

Michael Morgan....er...

doug shirk (had to--i sssslur my s's badly)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 12:13 pm:

Doug:
WQNY-FM was an adult-contemporary station with a lean toward what is now know as the Triple AAA format.

It was interesting going from Sly & the Family Stone's "Everyday People" into Los Lobos' "La Bamba" and then Robbie Robertson's "Somewhere Down The Crazy River" into "Love Is A House" by the Force MD's! (This by the way was a song-set I aired in the Summer of 1987 on WQNY-FM).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

IT ALMOST SEEM "LIGHT YEARS" BACK TO THE EARLY (GOLDEN) DAYS OF TOP 40 AND R&B RADIO!!!...THAT'S WHEN A RECORD PRODUCER/PROMOTER OR ARTIST COULD JUST WALK INTO A RADIO STATION AND ASK THE DJ TO PLAY HIS OR HER NEW RELEASE!!!...THE SCENE IN "LA BAMBA"...WHERE BOB KEANE WALKS INTO KHJ IN LOS ANGELES...AND GETS THE DJ TO PLAY RITCHIE VALENS NEW RECORD..."LETS GO"...WAS ACTUALLY PRETTY REALISTIC!!!...AND IF THE PROMOTER WAS GREASING THE PALM OF THE DJ...THE DOOR OPENED THAT MUCH WIDER!!!...I ALSO REMEMBER BACK IN DETROIT...WHEN PEOPLE I KNEW WOULD CUT A RECORD...THEM GETTING ALL THEIR FRIENDS TO WRITE LETTERS TO A PARTICULAR STATION OR DJ...ASKING THEM TO PLAY THE RECORDING!!!...IN TODAYS ENVIRONMENT...THOSE LETTERS WOULD END UP IN THE TRASH BIN!!!...STU

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 01:04 pm:

SPEAKING OF LOS LOBOS KEV...A FEW YEARS AGO...A BUDDY OF MINE TOOK ME TO A CLUB IN GLENDALE WHERE LOS LOBOS WERE PLAYING!!!...MY BUDDY (NOT REALLY A MUSICIAN) CARRIES AN HARMONICA AROUND WITH HIM...AND PLAYS IT WHILE DRIVING HOME OR SITTING AROUND!!!...THE GUYS IN LOS LOBOS WERE PRETTY COOL...AND ACTUALLY LET THIS "JERK OFF" COME UP ON STAGE WITH THEM...AND PLAY HIS HARMONICA ALONG WITH THEM ON A COUPLE OF TUNES!!!...STU

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 01:26 pm:

There is a story...if it's true or not I don't know....that Bob Seger used to use a phone bank of girls to call the Hit/Live/Party/Request line at radio stations (CKLW comes immediately to mind--Roselee Trombley (?)) to generate interest in his latest single. More requests, the better chance of airplay.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 02:05 pm:

Doug:
I wouldn't be surprised if Seger did that. For example, when the Bee Gees were in Australia during the 1960s, they were signed to Festival Records. However, they were doing MOR-pop during that time while the kids wanted music that sounded like the Beatles. Therefore, not many of their releases even charted. They were so desperate for a hit they rounded up members of their fan club, gave them some money & had them buy up copies of their then-current single "Wine & Women." The ruse worked - the record became a hit in Australia & peaked at #17 on their pop charts.

By the time the Gibbs modernized their sound & saw their single "Spicks & Specks" hit #1 in Australia, they had already headed back to England to sign with Robert Stigwood & Polydor Records (Atlantic handled their USA releases).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By NY-DELL (12.14.39.66) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

RECORD COMPANIES ARE NOT REALLY SIGNING ANYONE UNLESS YOUR PROJECTED AS A BONAFIDED SUPERSTAR. PRODUCTION COMPANIES ARE THE ONES BRINGING TALENT TO THOSE COMPANIES WITH LIMITED BUDGETS, THEY DO "PAYOLA" JUST FOR THE RECORD SALES AND TRY TO POCKET AS MUCH AS THEY CAN, ESPECIALLY HIP-HOP AND RAP. I DON'T KNOW IF THE SAME IS PRATICED IN ROCK, JAZZ AND COUNTRY

By don (68.75.58.12) on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 11:32 pm:

I think Gordy would pull and get all the talents in the neo-soul bag for their songwriting, producing, arranging, and musiciansship + for *originality and all the other vocalist, vocal groups and bands that he didn't give his attention and support to. Like all the artists in his past roster that that went on to sell millions without his attention and support and made him a lot 'O' monee, y'all remember. What do y'all think out there, huh?

By Eli (151.197.33.80) on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 11:46 pm:

IMO, I do not think that Berry Gordy would relate to all of this "neo soul" stuff.
After all, Gordy was about great artists, great writing, melodies that were memorble to EVERYONE,and great production.
This genre, IMO is lacking all of the above.

Sorry. Its only my opinion.

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:13 am:

If BG was starting out today he'd be doing hip-hop because that's where the money is and that's what's selling. Remember, he is/was a businessman.

By MC ROCKIT (172.145.10.219) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:25 am:

BG liked da bling, bling. If on da scene he would B up-to-his eyeballs in gangzter rap, laying down da law, bedding da honies, and stacking dat scrilla.

By Eli (151.197.33.80) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:31 am:

BG had more sense than that.
He was the consumate pro and did not have to prove amything to anybody as he was the real deal, the genuine article...and he spoke English!!

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:36 am:

Where did the fools come from on this forum?

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:37 am:

That was kind of funny,I have to admit, MC Rockit.

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:41 am:

Question! With the way things are set up today, could he achieve the success now that he achieved back then? Probably not, I think most people will say.

By Don (68.75.58.12) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:45 am:

Well Mister Eli. The same things as he expressed about Marvin and Stevie and look what happen. Eli you are an inspiration with a lot of knowledge and wisdom of Motown, but Mister Gordy may have expressed concerns and may be had he's doubts, fair enough. See, Music changes all the time, and don't get me wrong, he made every conposer get the formula to what he was trying to do musicaly. I mean the Tempts did it and nuthin' was said of them gettin' fonky. Everyone was goo-goo-ga-ga of the magic of what was going on with Motown it was cool, but sometimes "if you don't change with the times you're gonna be left behind". This just an and/or my opinion. And to Julian you are right my man.

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.10) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 05:38 am:

Two big keys to Berry's success that would still cut it now were professional backing and development. Writing, arranging, production and musicianship were of the first order and added interest to each performance rather than supplying routine computer/karaoke support as they mostly do now. Also he didn't just package an artist, use them up and move on. He developed their talent and gave them the longevity that means his acts are still there forty years on.

There are some serious talents out there - Craig David, maybe Miss Dynamite, but nobody is guiding and developing them, so they'll only go so far.

If someone could just combine BG's 'production line' with a little more room for the artist's own input, they'd have it made - anytime (IMO)

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 07:55 am:

Professionalism, class, excellence, musicianship, --- were all part of the Motown package. I think of Gordy as raising the entertainer's image, not lowering it. Creativity was certainly a large part of Motown. I am not sure whether they were all creative or whether just being part of the Motown atmosphere encouraged the creativity within each person.

I heard yesterday that Showtime was going to have a Hip-Hop American Idol reality contest on TV this year and that obscenities would be allowed. And to me that is lowering the image.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.133) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

What we have in many cases today is a production line only with more of the artists' input .

To be frank, I very rarely saw an outright wrong call by producers or Quality Control at Motown while I see so much self indulgance by today's artists.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.133) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 01:24 pm:

I think you need to look at Motown as a management and music publishing company that operated its own record label for as long as it was feasible to do so.

It wasn't all that different from today's management companies except for the fact that Berry Gordy is a lot smarter than anybody else in the industry that I'm aware of. He reinvented Motown a number of times and I'm sure could easily again if there were a reason to. I'm also sure that he could come up with a top ten hit within a week TODAY.

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.10) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 09:24 am:

Amen to that, Bob

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 06:13 pm:

Bob:
I'll drink to that!
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By don (68.75.188.242) on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:48 pm:

If Mister Gordy would have been interested and still be in the music biz, it would be hard to say. Only he would know? I mean, before when there was some kind of good quality Motown product he still got hits. The comments I had made earlier in this thread about if Mister Gordy would be interested in artists in the Neo-Soul bag. As I stated before it would be a probability. Now before the word Funk came along it was being called R&B/Soul. The point is what I'm trying to make is, yes, Neo-Soul has it's R&B dance groove and it's slow jams, and of course it has it's root in the funk as well. It has it's social commentery. I've read in many publications about Motown and it's artist and his bio, that he came into The Motown offices brandashing copies of Sly & The Family Stone's STAND!, passing them out to the staff to get a listen of what he knew was the new formula. Now some of you mean to tell me that this Man wouldn't be interested then as he would be now in the Neo-Soul bag? Since Neo-Soul came on the scene about 7-8yrs ago, everyone claimed how fresh, exciting and fun when it came on the scene, now every wants to disgard it. Here we all are 7-8yrs later and nothing has stimulated my senses musically yet. Sorry, I have to disagree with everyone's doubts.

By M.McLeanTech (66.159.205.35) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 02:21 am:

Berry Gordy Jr. was a fantastic person who had utterly astonishing talents. He was as charming as the sun is bright, moral as a saint, clever as a fox, and utterly obsessed with his own determination.

Pushing forward, to prove himself, was a monkey on his back. As the company became ultra-successful in the late 1960's, his obsession with these aspects of his success warped him into a faiding pattern.

He would have flopped fast if it were not for the basic legal standards established by tin pan alley and the likes of Irving Berlin. ASCAP and BMI were established to feed money back to song writers like a fire hose, long after they had lost the pulse of the young people.

With all that BMI money pouring in: Why didn't Berry do all those "right things," of which all the deciples on the forum dream?

I'll tell you exactly why: Because he lacked a key element in his personality that was present in Bob Hope!

Mike McLean

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 04:03 pm:

SPEAKING OF EN VOGUE,I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO SEE WHAT HDH WOULD HAVE DONE WITH THEM,THE ONE LADY WHO I CAN IMAGINE WORKING WITH BERRY TODAY WOULD BE LAUREN HILL.

By SB (206.214.2.123) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:26 pm:

I think Berry realized when he tried to get into the movies that his all out winning Musical/Producing formula was winding down. I mean - this man started w/a staple of wonderful, talented and gifted artists, and some of them he made that way and some he pulled it out of them. And some, he soon realized would never make it.

Mr. Gordy began to lose the Motown stars and big names after awhile and for God's sake. He most likely started going there in his mind about it. He was feeling the soon to be doom - and as it pertains to the revenue level going down - because many of the ones leaving and wanting to leave were putting it out there.

Can you spell that he was "feeling a little shakey" 'bout it all? He lost or was losing "Control", over the ones we now know as "Stars." David, Gladys, Stevie - Marvin, Martha, Diana - Eddie - Paul - and eventually even Otis & Melvin, and etc. Edwin Starr left - and so on and so forth. He saw the "Lyrics" written - on and off the wall.

Berry must have been brilliant in a lot of areas. Yet - he wasn't perfect. Whom is? I don't know anything about his past or present business practices and wheeling and dealing - but I do know that he appeared to have a lot together back then. So - when he began to see the unraveling of his empire - because the ones that HE KNEW made it happen for him and his business were busting up, striking and outright - quitting the ship, where he was their Captain, he had to regroup and re-navigate his ship.

IMO - Berry moved to LA to try his hand in movies for several reasons - and one of the main ones - and in my opinion - was that, he knew things would never be the same for him thru music producing and artist development in Detroit. Has anyone ever thought that maybe Berry didn't leave Detroit and all he knew and loved and was familar w/for selfish reasons. Right or wrong - maybe he felt that some of the ones he groomed, employed and had feeling for were leaving him - or whispering and threatening to leave.

Maybe he didn't want to stay in Detroit any longer because so many of his protegees were "Walking On By." He knew it would never be the same for him and his empire there, and he knew that perhaps it was a time for change. Some of the artists wanted change, and some were demanding it - so why shouldn't he learn w/the quickness that maybe he could trade that ship in for a 45 footer and just relax and chill a bit.

He saw many of his protegees' branching out. He saw them taking what they learned from him and them - and carrying on w/o him. It could have made him sad. Some feel he should have felt guilty at this point - and perhaps he did - or perhaps he didn't. Either way - IMO - he wanted to leave semi on top and before the MOTOWN SOUNDSHIP SUNK.

I think he missed many of the ones that had left and the ones he knew would be gone. If some want to say that he missed and would miss the revenue these artists had brought forth - I agree w/that to a certain extent. But that wasn't all of it - IMO. Berry knew that what the Motown Family had shared all of those years - would never be duplicated, because those days were what fairytales, dreams and blessings were made out of. That was their destiny and the meant to be for them back then - yet I think that Berry knew that "Everything Must Change." He understood it well, and it appears, he understaood it before too long.

I don't know who'd Mr. Gordy would choose now. There are some very good artists out there. I just don't think he cared about being involved in music after he sold his company. He has proven that in my estimation. Berry lost his babies and his hit making machine because so many of his babies grew up right in front of his eyes and left him.

I'm not saying that he was doing everything right by all the artists - I'm just offering up my perception on how he might have felt. Whether he was ripping anyone off - was unfair and the like - I can't attest to - and have no clue. I just think he might have felt and knew that "There Could Never Be Another(s) After Teaching - Grooming And Loving Them."

IMO - he also knew that the revenue and income stats were being affected for every big act that had left and wanted out. And not to mention that period when some wanted to write their own albums, and have more artistic control and input. A.k.a. - Stevie & Marvin, and the ones that wanted to go solo. LOL! I bet Berry had his pepto very near back then. LOL!