By Isaiah (205.188.117.14) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 09:30 pm:

Listening today to the early songs of Marvin Gaye, I was amazed at the difference in his sound, the maturation of it, over the years... I've heard the stories about what Berry saw in his young star, what he wanted to groom him to be, a shouter like the guy who sang GRAPEVINE... Even in his duets with Tammi, he seemed to be shouting a little... Maybe that is why his presentation of Whats Goin' On made Berry cringe... It wasn't exactly what he saw as Marvin's strong suit???

In any event, Mr. Gaye's maturation into a sensuous soulman is our gift... I am so happy the brother would rather have fought with Berry to be what he became, rather than relinquish that struggle to Berry's full control... I think Tammi's passing had a profound effect on what he wanted to convey, but moreso, I think he became convicted to doing things his way - and thank God for that... This period was his time of edification and enlightenment, where he matured from a toy of Motown Records, into a fully actualized master of his art... He produced, he wrote, he played drums, sang, and sang background... I wonder if he knew he had it all goin' on back in those HitchHike/Stubborn Kinda Fella days???

Peace!
Isaiah

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:46 pm:

Isaiah;
I don't think the change is a suprise. Marvin just started singing through his life's experiences, pain suffered and lessons learned.
Its the natural progression of a singer, he was later singing from the depths of his soul.
S.S.

By BankHouseDave (195.93.34.12) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 05:06 am:

He played piano and guitar too. His original idea was to be another Nat Cole and Berry supported that with the tribute album, but it wasn't what the audience wanted. Jack Ashford talks of how Marvin would always try and do a crooning segment in his act, calling Jack to come up front with the jazzy vibes, but the audience couldn't wait for him to get back to Stubborn Kinda Fellow. In the end, he wasn't a wannabe NKC or the man that Berry built, as SoulSis says, he found his own voice.

By Isaiah (205.188.117.14) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:45 am:

Big Money, great embellishment, man! Marvin was a truly talented and gifted musical man, who "heard" so much inside of that head that it boggles my mind... You know, I think a great many singers who came of age in the era of Sinatra wanted to be like Sinatra - or Nat King Cole... Those were the popular singers of their times, the guys they saw on the tube, or in movies... Jackie Wilson, also, wanted to do that style, as well... That's a whole different thread, though..

SoulSister, while I agree with you that the maturation process is normal and natural, I think that there were some opposing forces to the artistic maturation of Marvin Gaye... For one, the Motown Machine, dedicated to the process of making money, and following the formula that was so successful to them, in many respects, mounted the greatest obstacle... Remember, he had to fight every inch of the way just to produce Whats Going On, and after he'd produced it, it was verbally trashed... Some would say the opposition was a great thing, because it created a turbulence and tension in his music and art, and I would agree...

As Nish was pointing out the other day, he very skillfully used his stormy life to convey visionary beauty in his music... Even when others were writting songs for him, they were using the doors he had opened to convey their message through him... So, the education Marvin received through the University of Hard Knocks at Motown, as well as life itself, gave the world an artist who stands the test of time and eternity...

Peace!
ZeKe

By ~medusa~ (68.79.102.84) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 10:42 am:

It seems like back in those days,a lot of Artists just wanted to do their thing, just get their foot in the door so to speak. Everyone wanted to make Music and they didn't seem to have the "I'm Badder than Bad" kind of expression goin' on, and so they didn't really know they had it goin' in like that, so they just did their do.
Even though they all came from different arenas of Music, they hada lot of competition, but they didn't dwell on competition...they just enjoyed making their music, making the records, making the people happy and of course the dead presidents, but they were more sold into what they did best and they did it good.
They felt good knowing that their fans loved them for who they were, and for their performance.

By ~medusa~ (68.79.102.84) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 10:43 am:

It was all about Movin' & Groovin' the People
(I 4got to add that..sorry)

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 12:47 pm:

Isaiah;
When I started reading your response I thought dang, there he goes, there's always got to be a "but" in your response, but, yes but I couldn't be more wrong this time, I honestly can't disagree with anything you said regarding Marvin & the Motown machine. And yes...Marvin did always want to sing like 'Jimmy' & 'Nat' in style, which is so evident on his "Vulnerable" CD in which he sings Jimmy's "I Wish I Didn't Love You So".(Smile)
Take Care,
S.S.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.169.232) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 08:20 pm:

Hey Isaiah, what's up? I've often read about those early 60s & I always regarded that period to be a bit schizophrenic in nature. The music was moving away from the old Blues, R&B shuffle beat & away from what is now called Doo Wop. Soul wasn't in vogue yet & we had a hodgepodge of styles as the new R&B was trying to define itself.

On the one hand, you had the influence of Lieber & Stoller, with the Latin castanets & strings in their Drifters classics. You had Brother Ray bring Gospel, Country & Western & even MOR to the forefront of R&B. There was still the hint of the old R&B & Doo Wop. Add to that mix was the sounds of New Orleans & that whole gumbo of second line rhythms. Then we had the calypso stylings of Harry Belafonte & the MOR soind of Johnny Mathis. I don't think that R&B knew exactly what it was at that stage.

I say this because at that time, R&B groups were excluded from what Berry Gordy called "The smart clubs". The supper clubs of Vegas & Jules Podells' Copacabana were like the holy grail. These venues were considered to be the Creme De' La Creme. A successful appearance there brought an artist prestige & mainstream acceptance. This basically translated into more dollars & cents.

Artists like Sam, Jackie & Marvin craved that prestige & money. However, I found most of their more MOR/Pop leanings to be a bit light & frankly, milquetoast boring. Unlike Sam & Jackie, Marvin REALLY craved this prestige. I've read & heard interviews where Marvin said that he didn't want to be no soul singer. Marvin considered Sinatra, Martin & performers of that ilk as soul mates. He wanted to wear that top hat & tails, with a cane & sit on a stool & croon.

It seemed to me that that was where his heart was. When I see film from his early days, he seems most uncomfortable dancing. He wasn't the most smooth or relaxed dancer. It seemed to me that he had other aspirations & I wonder if his frustrations about not achieving his goal, affected his later actions.

I have those CD releases of his aborted MOR/POP recordings & I'm glad that his foray into standards were aborted. For one thing, while some of the songs are excellent. Marvin doesn't seem to have a grasp on the material. As young as he was, I don't think that he had the life experiences to allow him to convey the nuances that certain songs demanded. Some songs have to be lived, to be felt in order to truly relate to them. It's extremely difficult listening to a 20 year old singing My Way. That is not a 20 year olds song. Songs such as those come from living, those are the reflections of a 40 to 60 year old. Those songs ring false & I find a problem with his phrasing, timing & inflection. He sounds as thought he's singing by rote, with no true connection with the lyrics that he's singing.

I understand perfectly why Berry dissuaded him from this course. Frankly, we didn't need another Sinatra, Cole, Mathis or Belafonte. If Marvin had released this music back then, it would have sunk like at rock. Luckily for us, his POP LP went nowhere. Marvins' loss became our gain. Imagine if he had been successful with those MOR recordings. Think of all of the beautiful music we would have missed. Berry was smart enough to know that Marvin was a gem. Even at that, I don't think that Berry realized just how deep & talented Marvin was.

I'm glad that in their infinite wisdom, fate & Berry Gordy saw to it that Marvin Gaye became a Soul singer. I believe that his contribution to music was greater, than if he had been just another crooner.
Just one man's opinion.

Juice