By Zeke (64.12.117.14) on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 10:04 pm:

In the past few days this old bugaboo about who started soul, who invented soul, who sang the first soul record, and so on, has come up in a few threads... I, personally, think it boils down to our personal tastes, though history tells a different tale... I am certain there were folks bringing soul to the table long before Ray and Sam, but as we haven't heard their renditions of cthose songs, and are susceptible to the propaganda about such things, we immediately refer to these people as the progenitors of the sound... Some of us are older, some of us younger, so our palates for the sound are probably more or less expansive or limited based on our longevity... So, to sort of even things out, I am asking each of you, who defines this sound best for you as an individual... Not who is best or who was the first, or who invented what...But who touches your heart, mind, and soul like no other(s)in this style of sound...

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 10:38 pm:

Isaiah;
Again are you talking singing from the soul, or a style of music such as the Stax-Volt style with the soulful style of Otis Redding ( he can fit both catagories more or less)??
So if I were chosing someone who bared his soul in his expression I'd say Jimmy, if I were to chose soul music as a style then I would chose Otis.
You tell me which catagory are you asking for? (Smile).
S.S.

By Isaiah (64.12.117.14) on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 10:52 pm:

SoulSister, I am saying to the board that if they feel Frank Sinatra is their idea of Soul, then they should feel free to say that, and without any repercussions, because it is not my right to define what is soul for someone else... My understanding of what is soul is borne out of my paarticular experience, combined with, to some extent, what those artists who coined the term were trying to convey in using the term, which is all out, raw, and uninhibited emotional expression... Soul is the vocal for me, though I've found instrumentals which rocked my soul unmercifully... But that's my take... By the Way, SoulSister, a better choice than Otis one would be hard-pressed to find...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 11:01 pm:

Isaiah;
Since we went over & over this before I kinda figured thats what you'd say. Ok now...so you have my answer above.
Nitey Nite,
S.S.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.100.23) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 01:49 am:

As far as the fusion of raw emotion & the chord voicings, I always thought that Brother Ray was the one who led us into the Soul era. What other record was like What'd I Say? Except for the grunts, I always thought that it sounded like it could have come straight from a revival. To my way of thinking, it is that Church element, that crying from the soul, that is the essence of Soul music. The marrying of the sacred (gospel music)with the secular (R&B music)is the very heart & foundation of Soul music. I thought that was a major turning point in R&B, that laid the foundation for Soul.

Of course, Brother Ray didn't hem himself in with boundaries. He also managed to make Country & Western sound pretty soulful. I thought that he was the first one to take R&B to a different level, setting the stage for Otis, James Carr & even James Brown. Although What'd I Say came out a year before I was born, just comparing it to what was out at the time let me know, even as a child, that I was hearing something completely different than what had come before.

Juice

By sea (152.163.253.70) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 04:44 am:

Early Aretha Franklin....nothing else to say!

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 06:40 am:

Soul TO ME is a Gospel and Blues based sound and feeling that African-Americans have that has been passed on from generation to generation. (Although several White artists have been very soulful) These artists FOR ME represent Soul in it's purest form:

MAVIS STAPLES - Others may have had larger voices and been better technical singers but Mavis is the most soulful to me. Her phrasing is just Soooooooo Black. I can't even put it into words. There's also something very sexy about her voice. It's almost like she outsang everybody else without ever raising her voice. Amazing! If you can find it, pick up a copy of the 'A Piece Of The Action' soundtrack that has Mavis cuttin' up over late 70's Curtis Mayfield Funk. That's Soul!

Runner Up: Aretha Franklin (I think her most soulful moment was on the intro to her version of Nina Simone's 'Young, Gifted And Black'. Pure Gospel.)

James Brown - I know that Marvin Gaye is the favorite pick for Top male singer in any category around here but as far as Pure Soul I gotta go with James Brown. NOBODY "went there" like this man did. Singers like Marvin were very talented smooth, ladies men type of singers but James just didn't care. He gave us that Raw, 100% Proof, In Your Face Soul. This man was two steps ahead of every trend that was happening in Black music from the late 50's until the mid 70's AND HE NEVER TRIED TO WATER HIS SOUND DOWN TO HAVE A POP HIT! He's the King Of Soul, period!

Runner Up: Wilson Pickett

Juice I totally agree that Ray Charles was one the singers that laid down the blueprint for Soul music back in the 50's. (Dinah Washington was one of the Soulful Pre-Soul females) But it seems as if by the time the 60's rolled around and Soul started hitting the charts Ray was too busy singing Jazz and supper club standards swamped in strings! LOL. I think that Jackie Wilson, Lou Rawls, Sam Cooke and others were also victims of overproduced Pop tracks swamped in strings during the 60's. Brother Ray did come back in 1969 with an excellent, overlooked album called "Ray Charles, Doing His Thing" in which he sang some very funky late 60's Soul numbers. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will be released on CD sometime soon.

By johneflat (152.163.253.70) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 06:54 am:

well, some make me dance and sing, others make me smile and laugh and some make me cringe and upchuck, but only one makes me cry. For some reason Donny Hathaway touches a primeval spot way deep inside where the scared little kid lives and I fill up.............

By Michael/Cleoharvey (206.216.60.211) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 09:15 am:

Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, Sam Cooke

By john dixon (68.58.196.3) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:29 am:

Well, Sam Cooke is my overall favorite singer but those pop/soul tunes of his don't exactly define Soul music, as great as they undeniably are.

As a native Southerner myself, Otis Redding, with his strong rural flavor, influenced equally by Saturday night's Grand Ol' Opry radio broadcast as by Sunday's gospel choir, would have to be my choice for this thread topic. Otis' appeal, to me, always contained some non-musical elements, such as his obvious generosity of spirit, as acknowledged by everyone who came in contact with him.

That said however, I've felt a shift over the last five years or so as I've become more familiar with the music of James Carr. A much better singer technically and aesthetically than Otis, Carr's phrasing is absolutely impeccable. When I recently saw the video of "Only The Strong Survive", Rufus Thomas himself proclaimed James Carr as perhaps the finest of Southern Soul singers.

So my answer is both: James Carr and Otis Redding best define the soul sound for me.

By Dayo (81.134.206.171) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:43 am:

Last time I saw her in concert, the audience were so on side. Rapturous would be the word.

About 6 songs in to her set, she says "Oh boy... You guys are gonna hurt me tonight. I KNOW you gonna make me hurt...." We roared with approval.

She was true to her word, and we felt it too.

To the lady who never once cheated on a song, and who gave us the greatest soul 45 in the whole history of this universe and any other...

Gladys Knight.

PS (and its Walk in my shoes)

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:49 am:

If someone from Mars asked me what soul music was all about I would probably put on an Otis Redding record. It's hard to believe that he accomplished everything he did by the age of 25. There is a depth of feeling there that belies his youth. When you think about it, Sam Cooke didn't even have his first secular hit until he was already older than Otis when he died. It's amazing to think what could have been.

James Carr was incredible when he was on, but for various reasons having to do with his personal troubles, he wasn't "on" as often as Otis. His best stuff is amazing, though.

Regards,
Ken

By Dayo (81.134.206.171) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:08 am:

Ken

Totally agree with you regarding Otis. It's heartbreaking to think what he might have achieved, I guess Dock of the Bay gave us a tantalising clue.

I've got a half hour video of his appearance on Ready, Steady, Go in September 1966. I guess he was at his peak and he just tore it up!

Otis, Sam, Jackie, Marvin... sometimes it feels like all the good ones have gone.\image[]

By Reese (12.15.168.160) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:45 am:

Aretha

By Galactus (207.144.253.114) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:54 am:

Wilson Pickett

By Gary (66.73.238.5) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 12:40 pm:

Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin.

By ~medusa~ (155.139.50.14) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 01:37 pm:

(hahahaha)~~~I aint touchin' this again~~~(smile)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 01:58 pm:

Otis Redding
James Brown
Ray Charles (no matter WHAT he sings!)
Sam Cooke
Ronald Isley

Aretha Franklin (hell, she made classical sound soulful when she sang on the Grammys years ago)
Gladys Knight
Mavis Staples
Tina Turner
Patti LaBelle

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Nish (128.239.214.153) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 03:21 pm:

David Ruffin is the Epitosoul.
Clyde McPhatter, that emotion, that melisma.
Sam Cooke
Smokey Robinson
Jackie Wilson
____________________
Aretha Franklin
Gladys Knight
Jean Terrell

By Boynextdoor (4.165.165.35) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 08:58 pm:

The group Quiet Elegance....soul in a quiet way.

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.39) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 09:18 pm:

First, the ladies:

Gladys Knight, Aretha, Mavis & Patti

Now, The Gents:

James Brown, Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Ray Charles

Sea, I don't think that you mean the early Aretha Franklin. The Aretha Franklin that recorded for Columbia from 1960-66, recorded basically Standards & Pop /Jazz styled songs that didn't begin to hint at her soul. Columbia simply didn't know what to do with Aretha & it showed. Her early LPs were awkward & schizophrenic affairs. She never seemed to be quite comfortable with the material. Also, the standards that she was singing were more appropriate for someone much older. It didn't ring true when someone her age sang those songs. I would say that the best of that era were Today I Sing The Blues & Runnin' Out Of Fools. I liked very few of her early songs. In fact, it wasn't until I hit my 20s back in the 80s, that I even knew that she had a recording career that started in my birth year. For most of us, our consciousness of Aretha begins in 1967. And what an explosion it was!! Thank God for Jerry Wexler!

Juice

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.39) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 09:35 pm:

I neglected to mention Mr Carr & Sam Moore. You gotta put Teddy in that lineup as well. I love Sam & Jackie, but, overall, their music was just too pop. If they had been in the right hands, WOW, what could have been! In spite of their classics, their music had too much Lennon Sisters harmonizing & too many syrupy strings, way too much. Beautiful songs, yes. Soul music in the classic sense, no.

The shame is that they were capable of delivering the goods. Imagine how many more songs like Higher & Higher, Jackie could have produced with the backing of The Funk Brothers. His output, as written by Eugene Record was excellent. Imagine if he had that kind of writing & production even 6 years earlier.

Imagine if Sam had recorded more songs like A Change Is Gonna Come, Bring It On Home To Me (the call & response between Sam & Lou was great), That's Where It's At, Nothing Can Change This Love or Having A Party.
Could you imagine Sam & Smokey, HDH or Norman? How about Sam backed by King Curtis & Mr Purdie on Atlantic? How about Sam backed by the MGs? I can only imagine the result of such unions.

I think that the one SECULAR recording that captured the Soulful Sam was Live At The Harlem Square. Sam was going for it, his voice got hoarse & Sam wasn't trying to be sedate & cool, like on Live At The Copa. Those two performances were as different as night & day. Sam was singing SOUL, pure unadulturated Soul on the Harlem Square CD. I was glad to hear that CD, it only made me wonder, what if?

Juice

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:30 pm:

Isaiah;
This time I'm gonna go for the singer's that sing the in the "soul music style", rather than the singer that sings from the soul although some may fit both catagories ;

Otis Redding >
Carla Thomas (depending on the song)
Rufus Thomas
Isaac Hayes
Sam & Dave
Wilson Pickett
James Brown >
Joe Tex
Solomon Burke
O.V. Wright
James Carr >
Joe Simon
Al Green
Percy Sledge
Howard Tate
Johnnie Taylor
Little Johnny Taylor
Ray Charles >
Percy Mayfield >
Toussaint McCall >
Irma Thomas
Ann Peebles
Judy Clay >
Betty Wright
Laura Lee >
Linda Jones >
Etta James >
Gladys Knight >
Areatha (depending on the song)>
Mavis Staples
more...
>=can fit both catagories depending on the song
-------------------------------------------------

OK, here's my list for singing from the soul;

Jimmy Scott ***
Big Maybelle ***
Dinah Washington ***
Billie Holiday **
Little Miss Cornshucks **
Nancy Wilson
Etta Jones
Etta James **
Paul Robeson
Judy Garland
Arthur Prysock*
Jackie Wilson ***
Walter Jackson ***
Timothy Wilson *
Derek Martin ***
Marvin Gaye (depending on the song)
Billy Paul (depending on the song)
George "Smitty" Smith (The Manhattans)***
Eddie Levert (The O'Jays)(depending on the song)**
Clarence Burke, Jr. (depending on the song)*
Anthony Gourdine ( The Imperials) **

*/**/***=degree on touching the soul in the listeniner in deep penertrating emotion, while they abandon all inhibitions and bare their own soul, especially in live performances!!!
SoulwitnessSister

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:36 pm:

I must give "Soulful" props in the first catagory to;

Gerald Alston ( The Manhattans)>
Teddy Pendergrass
Patti LaBelle
------------------------------------------------

In the second catagory;

Stephanie Mills **

S.S.

By sea (152.163.253.70) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 05:06 am:

Juicefree20
Early Aretha for me was around '67... even today I can't think of anyone who matched her back then, let alone could ever surpass her. She truly will always be the Queen of Soul!
Thanks

By RnB showcase (65.229.10.163) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 02:33 pm:

Aretha Franklin
Dennis Edwards

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 06:51 pm:

I've already posted to this topic but now that I think about it's more complex than I originally thought. Back in the "Golden Era" of Soul music there were several different shades. There was Blues-Soul (Latimore, BB King, ZZ Hill, Little Milton, etc), Pop-Soul (60's Motown), early Funk (James Brown, Dyke & The Blazers), Southern-Soul (Mitty Collier, Otis Redding), Sweet-Soul (Barbara Mason, Royalettes, Eddie Holman) and several other styles within the Soul genre. There was something for every musical taste. I stand by my choices of singers that I've already picked in my previous post but I guess a "defining singer" would depend on the style of Soul you're interested in at the moment.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:04 pm:

Hi Rodmann;
Since your going 'Blues' too...don't forget Bobby "Blue" Bland, powerful voice.
I was trying to stick to strong, gritty, southern soul for the 'genre'catagory of soul singers on my personal list.
Dyke & The Blazers crossed my mind too but I thought of them as northern US cities soul. Just my humble opinions (smile).
S.S.

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:18 pm:

OMG, SoulSis you are so right! I forgot all about Bobby "Blue" Bland and Johhnie Taylor! Two of my favs. I swear! LOL. I actually wasn't trying to give a complete list but I was just giving some random examples of the styles within Soul. I also forgot to list the artists who had sort of a Soul-Jazz fusion thing going on like Roy Ayers, Nancy Wilson and Phyllis Hyman. I can't really think of any that were big during the 60's off the top of my head though. There really was something for everyone!

By Juicefree20 (151.205.169.232) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:19 pm:

I would have to add Smokey Scott of The Internationals/Persuaders to this list. Also Reggie Mc Arthur of The Controllers. His performances on Somebody's Gotta Win, Somebody's Gotta Lose & Heaven Is Only One Step Away are as soulful as it gets!

Juice

By STONEWALL (68.237.59.78) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 09:44 pm:

My "list" is a bit briefer than Soul Sister!

***** Otis Redding, as in "I've Been Loving U Too Long (Can't Stop Now)", "Try A Little Tenderness" and, of course, the soul ultimate, "Respect".

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 10:29 pm:

STONEWALL;
How about Otis' "These Arms Of Mine"? MMMmMmmMmmm, its a killer just like "I've Been Loving You Too Long"!!(Smile).
S.S.

By STONEWALL (68.237.59.78) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 11:11 pm:

Sister Soul, U are =really= soulful -- and perceptive! U are absolutely right re: Mr. O's burnin' "These Arms of Mine".

I got a kick out of the fact that I just happened to see that "You & I" picked 4 out of 5 of the exact same songs for favorites of Jr. Walker. Check it out! Did U do Brenda, too?

Bi the way, I'm zipping on this S.D. Board with The Vandellas' songs blasting in the background (pun intended), waitin' for Miss Martha to ring me up from Cali. She & The V's arv'd from their Europa tour in L.A. today and are currently rehearsing for tomorrow's "M-45" show. I wanna find out what song(s) they are doin'? I'm sure it will include "Heat Wave" and, hopefully, the ultimate Motown anthem (co-penned by her pal Marvin): "Dancing In The Street". I'm especioally excited about this because of the way "they" sadly minimized Martha (as well as the late Mary Wells and the great Junior Walker) on "M-25". Well, Martha's still here -- in perfect vocal form -- and she has two words for them: "Honey Chile".

By Eli (68.236.51.126) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 04:21 am:

Funny(maybe) story.

When I was a kid, I used to watch my grandma, or Bubby as we called her, cut up her fresh killed chickens from Nathans butcher shop.
When she got to remorving the internal organs, after the heart and when she got to the gizzard, I thought that was the chickens soul, thinking the the "soul" was an organ just as the heart was.
Go figure.
I only just found out the truth last year.

By sika2003 (213.39.132.114) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 06:03 am:

Otis Redding, Sam Cooke (his most soulful moments are on his gospel records though)

By sika2003 (213.39.132.245) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 06:21 am:

PS:
when it comes to Otis Redding check out the Otis Redding group I helped to create. Don't think this is a silly advertising, I just see that many of you love Otis. the link is: http://groups.msn.com/OtisRedding
If you want you can join the group. Doesn't cost anything. It's pretty interesting because we got members from all around the world, sharing their memories and thoughts on Otis and soul music and adding information like pictures, news articles and links to interesting sites. Among the members are Otis' manager Alan Walden, James Yarbrough, the president of the Otis Redding memorial fund, Newton Collier, trumpet player with Otis and Sam & Dave, Patrick Montier and Jean Paul Lecroix, creators of the official Stax and Otis Redding french site.
Sounds like advertising when I read it again. Maybe it is. But not for money reasons but for the motivation to make Otis and soul musics legacy last.

By MagyarEd (209.163.99.236) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 06:09 pm:

Those that touched me in my youth as soulful singers were Otis, Aretha and Jackie. After getting a bit longer in the tooth, I listened to and appreciated Ray Charles.
The performer that still knocks me out is Curtis Mayfield.

By Kev-Lo (4.231.251.41) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 07:55 pm:

Hi this is Kev-Lo I say
Smokey Robinson
Curtis Mayfield
Sam Cooke
Linda Jones
Glady's Knight
Patti Labell

By Keane (24.69.255.204) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 10:02 pm:

Mine, in order are
Al Green
Otis Redding
Gerald Alston
Wilson Picket
Billy Stewart
Abrim Tilmon, higher but such a short peak period
Dionne Warwick,
Gladys Knight
Bobby Bland, soul for sure cause of his "O Lords"
Ali Woodson

Next up are a Jesse James from California, Gene Chandler, Lenny Williams, Aaron Neville. I'd say James Brown too, but I see him as Number One Recording Artist Of Soul.

By Rasputin (205.188.117.14) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 11:30 pm:

Can I add the "PERSUASIONS" up-in-here? 'Street Corner Symphony' was pure acapella SOUL!! From the church to the fields to the street corner ..... Still hearing the wail on BUFFALO SOLDIER!!

By Shawn1b (65.30.15.198) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 11:44 pm:

I think Soul Music is the Music of Black America !Aretha,Martha,Dionne,Cissy,Teddy,Otis,Al,Dennis,David,Eddie,Levi,Author Conley,Solomon Burke and so many other GREAT SOUL SINGERS!Shawn