By Isaiah (152.163.253.70) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 09:13 pm:

Thanks Galactus!!!

Folks, I recently picked up a Little Willie John's greatest hits joint after hearing a concert of his on WBGO's Portraits In Blue, a show hosted by Bob Porter here in the city... I'll admit that all I ever heard of this fiery little soulman was his monsta hits, FEVER and TALK TO ME, but after hearing him do a song made popular by Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson, called PERSON TO PERSON and I NEED YOUR LOVE SO BAD, as well as a few others, I was pacing the floor, thinking this cat is Sam Cooke of the early '60's, and he's doing this stuff in the mid '50's! This S@%! is ridic, because now I've got to do some very serious reassessing of all I've been told, and all I've ever read...

The following week, Mr. Porter went to playing the incomparable Mr. Hank Ballard's music, which I am a bit more familiar with, as Hank is a seminal figure in R&B and Rock and Roll, period... This happened, ironically, as I was reading Jackie Wilson's biography(didn't finish it, because the writer caint write! That's CAINT write!), and it occured to me that all three of these giants are from the city of Detroit, and it was ole Hank that took over the lead role on the Midnighters from the Mr. "my big leg girl is gone" man, himself, Levi Stubbs back in the day... Wow, how does this one little tiny city(compared to mine)produce of all these prodigiously talented voices, man???

The sad thing is that most of the world don't know that these cats are from Detroit, and that's because they were overshadowed by that little rinky dink record company that grew into a monnster known the world over... In fact, I don't think anybody cares about Hank(How You Gonna Get Respect, If You Haven't Cut Ya Process Yet)and Little Willie, and Jackie's all but a forgotten man even at this site... That's really too bad, because the sound of that city is much larger than Motown... Would that it residents would be more vocal in touting some of the lesser known talents to come outta that city, like Roquel Billy Davis, as well as Elvin, Hank, and Thad Jones, three brothers who are among the giants of Jazz on their respective instruments... Detroit, don't let Motown swallow all of your thunda... Speak truth to power!!!(smile!) BTW, there was a nice article on Jackie Wilson in the NY Daily News today... I think this was the 40-something anniversary of Jackie's being shot by one of his girlfriends... Nice photos..

Peace!
Isaiah

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:20 pm:

Isaiah;
Yeah sho' nuff... Hank, Willie, & Jackie are among the cream of the very top artists out of Detroit. Its a real shame they have been so looked over, I'd rather listen to them over most Motown artists, but thats just a matter of personal taste, I guess.

Jaunita wasn't aiming at Jackie, as you probably know, he stepped in front of the bullet to protect another. And no, we don't need to go there,(smile).
Thats cool,
S.S.

By ~medusa~ (68.79.88.111) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:25 pm:

Motown makes me wanna feel like dance~~(LOL)


Isaiah)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

By Bob Olhsson (209.247.222.94) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:44 pm:

EVERYBODY who isn't being promoted using a lot of money is being overlooked today.

American music is in trouble because Madison Avenue has taken over almost everywhere that people get exposed to new and to new-old music in the United States.

We need to create new places where quality American music is performed and can be experienced in every city. I say we because those of us who love the music are the only ones who will care enough to insist on quality over flash.

By Gary (172.161.48.241) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:46 pm:

What's up Isaiah? Very intersting insights. I don't have any solid answers to the points you have raised in your post, but I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that Detroit has always seemed to be a haven for creative people who are here due to what I call "historical coincidence".

The greater irony lies in the fact that most of the greatest names in Detroit soul music history (including the people you mentioned) all come from the same relatively small neighborhood: The North End. This was largely, but in no way entirely, due to segregation.

Cities like Chicago, NYC, Philly, Memphis and even Minneapolis have all produced more than their share of soul music legends, and as a Detroiter, I might be biased but Detroit seems to stand out among them all. It's gonna take someone a lot smarter than me to explain the reasons why this is so.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.187.47) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:56 pm:

Hello all. Hey Isaiah, I see that you saw the article in todays Daily News. That was one heck of an explanation, wasn't it. Well, let's not go there. I'm still not familiar with all of Little Willie Johns music. He was a bit before my time & I was more of a soulster. In fact, I need to check out his music, as most of what I've heard was good.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:59 pm:

Little Willie John's "Cottage For Sale" is the bomb!
S.S.

By Isaiah (152.163.253.70) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 11:06 pm:

Gary, I think it might be 'bout dem Cadillacs, man(smile!) But, seriously, it is a very tittilating thing to ponder... Of course, the city of Chicago produced Sam, Curtis, Jerry Butler, Chaka Khan, Minnie Ripperton, and put a small downpayment on Donny Hathaway, whom i believe is originally from St. Louis...

But listening to Hank Ballard's churchiness is downright enlightening... I was thinking this morning, why did James reach out and grab Hank to be down with him on his label... I come to the conclusion that James wasn't joking when he said "whatsonever it is, it got to be funky..." And Mr. Hank Ballard was just as funky as he wanted to be... Those short and choppy catch phrases he always used in his songs had to have been a powerful influence on James, I do believe...

But Gary, based on what I've read, you're absolutely correct about the Northside of Detroit... I heard those cats used to all be involved int the talent shows, taking turns on who would outdo the other... As we know from the NBA, when you play against the best, and beat the best, then you become the best... A little competition never hurt anyone except those who are losers... Hey, you know, I wonder if the Jones brothers are also from the Northside???

Lady Medusa, I think it was you drew all them bad ass cats to Detroit City(smile!) Any truth to that rumor???(smile!)

Peace!
Isaiah

By Bob Olhsson (209.247.222.94) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 11:22 pm:

"when you play against the best, and beat the best, then you become the best... "

Nothing could be more true about music. Also the larger the pool of talent, the better one needed to be.

Today we frequently end up with the best of the rich rather than the best of the best. It annoys me to hear people talk about it all being a matter of "style" when the ability to move people is missing in action.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.187.47) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 12:30 am:

I'm sorry to disagree, but, I feel that pound for pound, Chicago had the motherlode. Whereas, it wasn't a prolific as Motown saleswise, they definitely had so many diverse & great artists & producers in its own right. That was one of the things that I hated about the movie Cooley High. I was really supposed to believe that in 1964, the only music that Chicagoans listened to was Motown. According to Cooley High,in Cabrini-Green & Altgeld Gardens, they didn't play Major Lance, Jerry Butler, The Impressions, Little Milton, Billy Stewart, The Dells, The Radiants, Etta James, The Artistics, Walter Jackson, The Duotones, Betty Everett, Dee Clark or Gene Chandler. What BS! Aside from the monolith that was Motown, I believe that Chicago was the true mecca of R&B & Soul in the early to mid 60s.

Just one mans opinion
Juice

By RD (65.54.97.142) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 12:45 am:

I'm inclined to agree with you Juicefree about Chicago being the true mecca of R&B and Soul in the early to mid sixties and lets not forgot doowop in the fifties. Chicago has a much more illustrious doo wop history than Detroit. Berry Gordy's Motown Records put Detroit on the map.

I have to disagree with Isaiah about people not knowing that Little Willie John and Hank Ballard are from Detroit. Most people back in the day knew. BTW, Hank is at his finest on "Teardrops On My Letter," which was the A-side of his original version of "The Twist." Or, was it the B-side, I forget?

By Juicefree20 (151.205.187.47) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 01:10 am:

Hey RD, Teardrops was the B Side. I also liked his performance on You're So Sexy (on King) & Hey There Sexy Lady (All Platinum).

Juice

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:10 am:

Isaiah writes...."and Jackie's all but a forgotten man even at this site"

Fact : Jackie Wilson has been mentioned 953 times on 463 threads on this forum. We also uploaded a photograph of his gravestone a few weeks ago.
David

By sea (152.163.253.70) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:13 am:

Little Willie John has a son Darryl Keith John who sings as well.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:16 am:

For anyone wondering about the TOTAL contribution to sixties Soul.....

I keep databases on Chicago and Detroit.

From the info gleaned to date, I find that Detroit was more prolific.

David

By Juicefree20 (151.205.187.47) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:33 am:

How are you David. I would have to agree that Detroit was more prolific when you add Motown. If Motown was removed from the equation, would Detroit still have a slight edge? I think that the stats would be interesting, as I think that Motown simply overwhelms everyone. Their output & longevity can't be disputed, they were very dominant. It seems that the average person seems to be under the impression that Motown IS Detroit music. Everyone else is unfairly forgotten about. I just had a similar discussions at work & I'd love to be able to prove my point. I'd like to know, what percentage of Detroits' output belonged to Motown? Hope you can help me here!
Thanks
Juice

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:58 am:

JF20
I am unsure why you want to remove Motown from the equation. That's like removing Chess.

I have identified 60 plus studios http://soulfuldetroit.com/web06-studio%20database/studio%20text/index.html
and more than 600 record labels in Detroit. (Keith Rylatt has identified a further 100).

Although identifying 2 (eventually) Motown studios, and about a dozen Motown labels out of the 60/600 detail can't answer you question properly, it does give some idea of the extent of the non-Motown output.

This website is not and will not be a tribute to Motown, far from it. It will take us from now until doomsday to do a little justice to those who were part of the local competition.

By Isaiah (205.188.116.195) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 05:20 am:

David, 463X2 = 926, meaning Jackie's been mentioned a little over 2 times per thread... Compare that with Fayette of the Three Degrees who must've been mentioned 14-million times in that one Three Degrees thread alone, and you'll get what I tried to imply in my statement... And as this site is dedicated to Detroit's Soul Music history, such a disparity should not be, do you agree???

Additionally, Chicago, if we include it's vast Gospel and Blues library, the essence from which Soul came, and was made, I say your data base doth deceive you... So much of Chicago's music was made out in Los Angeles and here in New York, that even these cities owe a great deal of their sound to that city... If we are to believe that Sam Cooke "invented" the soul sound, and has influenced ALL of the artists of that period, including Smokey Robinson of Detroit, Otis Redding of Georgia, Arthur Conley of Memphis, Solomon Burke of Philadelphia, and Bobby Womack of Cleveland, a good case can be made that we're all dancing to the tune called by Chi-Town???

I will not go as far as Juice and RD, and call it the mecca of soul in the 60's, but a case can be made that the city is the mecca of all-around sound for the entire United States - which is saying a helluva lot MORE, I think... It is the city where Dr. Thom Dorsey unveiled his Gospel Blues, Louis Armstrong freaked the world with his virtuousic trumpet, Muddy Waters revolutionized the sound of the Blues, and Sam Cooke threw off the gloves, and brought bare-knuckled soul into pop music... And that is not mentioning how Mahalia Jackson took Gospel down a notch, and introduced the world to pop gospel...

Detroit was, indeed, prolific, and perhaps more prolific in the arena of secular soul in the 1960's, but that' a very small time frame... Over the long haul, Chicago's music scene is much older, and far more prolific...

Peace!
Isaiah

By RD (65.54.97.152) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 05:30 am:

Other than Motown, Westbound, Fortune (small), Don Davis' labels, and Ollie McLaughin's labels, which were really outside of Detroit, most of Detroit's labels were small mom & pop affairs trying to emulate Berry Gordy's success without much success. Before Motown, Detroit was known for its R&B and jazz. Other than Nolan Strong & the Diablos hardly anyone raves about Detroit Doo Wop. And I don't believe Chicago's many record labels have been researched as thoroughly as Detroit's. I think there might be more than some are aware of.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 06:02 am:

RD

Surely Robert West, Johnnie Mae Matthews, Harry Balk, Mike Hanks, Ed Wingate, Dave Hamilton were more than Mom and Pop.

My stats only cover late fifties thru sixties and do not include DOO-WOP or Blues. My interest is in R&B and Soul.

It is true that not much is in print reference Chicago and that Robert Pruters excellent book only covers part of the story.

However my stats on C(good) and D(excellent) definitely show an imbalance especially when you consider D had only half the population of C. But I suppose the latter statement is irrelevant to the point in question.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 06:05 am:

Isaiah

Your post leaves me completely baffled.

David

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 06:35 am:

RD
Billy Davis/Gwen Gordy, Harvey Fuqua, H/D/H must also come into the equation.

Regards major Chicago entrepreneurs, I can think of the Chess Brothers/Leaner Brothers/The Carters/Carl Davis/Curtis Mayfield. There was also Mercury-Blue Rock and Twilight-Twinight.

I'm at work right now but the more I think of this the more convinced I am that D was on a different planet.

Would appreciate some info from Kevin Goins.

By RD (65.54.97.152) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 09:30 am:

Chicago also had Zodiac Records and many recordings done in the city by artists that were released on various major labels, i.e. Rufus, Earth, Wind & Fire, Ohio Players, etc. There were many other smaller labels that are not written about much like the one the Norfleets reoorded on. Joshie Armstead and Mel Collins had labels they operated out of Chi-town too. And what about the first little label that Deniece Williams recorded on as Deniece Chandler?

By Sue (205.188.116.195) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 09:48 am:

RD,
You have the timeline a little wrong. Motown didn't come along until 1959, so nobody was imitating Berry Gordy, but quite the opposite.

Sensation, Fortune, JVB, Staff, Big Star, Prize, Hi-Q and Von were all active in the '50s, when BG was trying to run a record store.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 09:48 am:

RD

The point is these little labels don't add up to 600 (or even better, 700).

David

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 10:48 am:

Isaiah;
You put Sam Cooke ahead of Ray Charles as the so called "inventor" of soul music??? I don't claim to be an expert at dating these things but I do know Ray was around earlier. Besides I think many artists contributed to early soul sounds not just one.

Trivia: Louis "Pops"/"Satchmo" Armstrong was from New Orleans and lived in Queens, N.Y. He didn't let anyone come in his house that didn't smoke weed.(smile).

S.S.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 10:54 am:

S.S.
LOL...I knew there was something very special about Satchmo!

By RD (65.54.98.29) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:17 am:

Sue, I meant the many little labels in Detroit that sprung up in Detroit after Motown became popular. I know it happened it Detroit because you had Motown wannabes starting up in other cities, including Cleveland, as well. Prior to Motown's success few record labels were being run out of residential homes. It was believed you needed traditional office space or a building.

As for the Chicago labels adding up David, I don't think adequate research has been done on Chicago labels to state that as a fact. You are also not considering, as I previously mentioned, the tremendous amount of recording activity in Chicago studios that was released on labels with addresses outside the city.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:20 am:

Hi Ralph;
I personally know a frequent visitor to his house.LOL! Don't ask who!LMAO!!
S.S.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:27 am:

S.S. ( Big laugh ) Gee...I was about to ask...

By 777-888 (81.128.62.164) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:34 am:

Isaiah and Meikle you girls crack me up!!!!!!..... can't believe men are such gossip Queens trying to be full metal jackets.666+999

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:52 am:

Ralph;
(Bigger laugh)! Funny-------------------still LMAO!!!
Have a good day,
S.S.

By Vonnie (205.188.113.61) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 12:05 pm:

777-888,

If you can't use your real name and give SD some positve information, crawl back in your hole.

Vonnie

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 01:12 pm:

David & Company:
If anyone wants to read about the history of Chicago's music scene, especially from the post-war until the late 1970s, I would strongly suggest picking up Robert Pruter's excellent book "Chicago Soul". Like Detroit, Chicago had labels and producer who were successful either regionally, nationally or both - and what labels and talent there was -

Chess Records (Chess-Checker-Cadet-Argo)
Vee Jay Records (including Tollie Records)
Chance/Sabre Records (early home of the Moonglows & the Flamingos)
Gamma/Giant Records (Joshie Armstead & the late Mel Collins)
Sandman Records
Clarence Johnson & his stable of artists (the Lovelites, Deniece Williams, Brighter Side of Darkness, etc) - he also ran Lovelite Records
Constellation/Bunky Records (Bill Sheppard's companies)
The Leaner Brothers (One-Der-Ful/Mar-V-Lus & Toddlin' Town)
Nickel/Penny (run by WVON'S Richard Pegue - he released the Cheers' "I'm Not Ready To Settle Down" and later produced Billy Mitchell's jazz version of Edwin Hawkins' "Oh Happy Day" in 1969)
Peter Wright's Twinight/Twilight/Torrid labels
Leo Austell's Brainstorm and Twin Stacks labels (he recorded the first commercial works by the Emotions)
Andre Williams (who bounced between Detroit, Chicago, St.Louis AND Houston!)
Roquel Billy Davis (the A&R chief of Chess during the 1960s)
Carl Davis (Okeh, Brunswick, Chi-Sound, Innovation II...'nuff said)
Zodiac/Boo Records (Ricardo "Ric" Williams in charge - Ruby Andrews' "Casanova" was among the hits)
Windy C/Mayfield/Curtom (God bless you, Curtis..)
Thomas Records (Eddie Thomas' label - the home of Jamo Thomas' "I Spy For The FBI" and Cash McCall)
Satellite/St. Lawrence (Dick Simon had Burgess Gardner & the late Monk Higgins making great music)
Sag-Port (ran by Jim Porter & Sono Zago - released light soul/jazz recordings by acts such as the Mark IV Unlimited)
Thomas "Tom Tom 84" Washington (arranged so many songs that became hits it ain't funny....)
John Cameron (the late underrated songwriter - he co-wrote "1900 Yesterday" which was first recorded by Betty Everett in 1969 and became a hit for Liz Damon's Orient Express a year later)
Tip Top/Nike Records (owned by the Daylighters' Charles Colbert Jr, who later co-founded the American Breed & Rufus)

Of course there were hundreds of artists and session people too numerous to mention.

I hope this helps but I strongly suggest reading Pruter's book.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sue (12.34.51.20) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 01:39 pm:

Motown severely dampened competition, others have done more of a study but I'd hazard a guess that the number of record companies were halved at least, by the '60s.

By RD (65.54.98.29) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 01:44 pm:

Hi Sue, I'll be willing to bet that approximately 75 percent (at least) of the 600 Detroit recording companies that David M. mentioned started after 1962, which was around the time Motown churned out it first big hits.

Thanks for that KevGo, however, there were even more smaller mom & pop (one or two releases) record companies that started and ended almost as quickly as they began in Chicago. The problem is nobody has researched all these little companies as some (Lars) have obscure Detroit labels.

By Galactus (207.144.253.114) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 03:28 pm:

I should've picked up the Rhino Little Willie John CD collection years ago when I had the chance. Now I live somewhere where I can only get it online only......sucks.

My dad was a teen when LWJ was hot and he was one of his faves......He's told me over and over again I need to get some Little Willie John....that he was one of the first "soul" stars in some ways.

Thanks for the reminder, Isaiah......I've made a note to get that CD at the next opportunity.

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.110.49) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 04:46 pm:

Kevin-you rule!!

Now about this wonderful bit of news about Mr.Armstrong. I always felt a special bond with him.Now I know why.LOL I now also know why his voice got so raspy. I'll bet he always had a lot of food on hand to feed his hungry guests.

Say man, you holdin that to keep your hands warm or you going to pass it on over.lol

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 05:41 pm:

RD:
You are so right as rain about there being labels that never lasted past a couple of releases in the Chicago area. The label I work for bought one small label that only had a handful of records but the output was so soulful and funky with arrangements scored by a man who was almost in the same league as Tom Tom 84. These tunes will be part of a compilation series devoted to Windy City funk and soul.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Robb_K (204.108.65.10) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 05:48 pm:

As to the small Chicago soul labels, Don, D.V.D. Mike, I, and a few others listed a good portion of them on the thread regarding labels from various cities, several months ago. There is a very extensive list there (I'm sure I listed over 100, myself). Sorry, but I can't remember the exact title of the thread.

By Juicefree20 (68.161.20.172) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 06:46 pm:

Hey David. It's not that I want to remove Motown from the equation. It's just that Motown had become a catch phrase for any Soul music with that driving 4 on the floor beat. I asked you that because almost everyone that I know equates Detroit soul music with Motown. If I say Golden World to someone, they look at me with glazed over eyes. They don't know what I'm talking about. I asked you to remove Motown because I don't know about all of Detroits various Labels, studios & production companies of that time. There are books of Philly, Chicago, Memphis, Phil Spector & The Brill Building sound. I haven't seen any books regarding Detroits rich musical history. That's why I asked about removing Motown from Detroits history. You have to admit that Motown gets the lions share of the attention.

Now the answers that you have provided is exactly what I was looking for. I want to know about the other companies in Detroit. That is the type of info that I am looking for, the other elements of Detroits music scene. It's time for someone to document all of this in a book. Unfortunately, when the average person thinks of Detroit music, you know what the inevitable answer will be. Unfortunately, not many know of a Johnnie Mae Matthews & her contributions to the art. Not many know of a Thelma records, or Tri-Phi, or Robert West & his involvement with The Untouchables, or Lupine Records & Eddie Floyd, Sir Mack Rice or, Joe Stubbs. There should be more written about them & their contributions.

As KevGo stated, Chicago Soul by Robert Pruter gives an excellent overview of the areas, dances, groups, labels & production companies. RD, on pg 175, he speeks of the Norfleet Brothers, who recorded as The Cheers on Penny Records. He also writes about Giant records which was run by the husband & wife team of Jo Armstead & Mel Collins. He also speaks of Deniece Williams, who recorded as Denise Chandler for the Lock & Toddlin' Town labels.

Mr Pruter also has his companion book, Chicago Doowop. It expands further into the cross pollenation between the labels, groups & production companies. He shows the interplay between artists such as The Dells, The Players, The Flamingos, Billy Stewart, Bo Diddley, Ramsey Lewis, Maurice White, it's just too extensive to go into here. What I am hoping is that all of the great minds here will get together & write that book. I, for one, would appreciate learning more about Detroits Musical history. I believe that a book has been long overdue. Is anyone working on one & has anyone thought about such a project?

Juice

By Isaiah (205.188.117.14) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 08:17 pm:

SoulSister, what's that, you say Jackie was being...chivalrous when he took that bullet(LOL!) As Sam would say, "ummmmm hum..."

But SoulSister, you know my feelings on the whole "SOUL" music thing... We went through that back around the Christmas holidays... I use the term because everyone else uses it... But, no, I don't believe for a moment Sam invented anything except his patented yodel(smile!) And I have some problems with the idea that Ray brought "soul" into the music, too.... I think Ray captured something funky in his music, but wow, after listening to Little Willie John's CD it left me feeling that this guy has been written out of the loop because he just isn't a big enough name... It's clear that he copped a slice of Sam's gospel style, but damn did he! It all means back to the drawing board for me, because I never believed that old stuff anyway... And Willie John confirmed for me that it was a wise decision...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 08:41 pm:

Hey Isaiah;
Yes, on your first paragraph, do a little research and you shall see for yourself. He & Juanita had several children together and when she found out trouble moved herself into his digs thats when she came a gunning for her (smile). It always goes back to that same trouble involved in the biggest negative impacts on Jackie's life. End of conversation, anymore and you'll have to dig for your own answers.

RE: SOUL, I do remember that conversation. For the short answer we both agreed "soul" comes from deep within. As far as a style of music projected, of course many contributed to the roots of soul music starting with the church before the recording artists or singers in general.

Willie: I'd have to agree there. Guess what friend he admired and took his moniker from (smile).

Peace Always!
S.S.

By zeke (205.188.117.14) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 09:12 pm:

I hear ya, SoulSister!!! These cats are little in physical size ONLY! The Voices however - AWESOME!!!

Damn, that Mr. Wilson wasn't the same cat who caught hell from Dennis The Menace back then, was he(LOL!) Man, SoulSister, Jackie Wilson reminds me so much of Mike Tyson... A guy who needed somebody to say, hey, cut the bullshit, and start thinking about the future... I don't KNOW jack, but it just seems, like Mike, he had too many leeches and bloodsuckers around him, and too few folks to give it to him straight no chaser... Like the title of that article, this man coulda been a contenda with all of that talent... He should've been a conglomerate...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 10:00 pm:

Isaiah;
Ha-ha-ha- let me tell you I never met an entertainer that didn't have bloodsuckers around him! Got to run out of the house now to the store, they close early in Cleveland!
Later,
S.S.

By RD (65.54.98.145) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:46 pm:

Juicefree, I read both of Prueter's books. The Norfleet Brothers were a gospel group, their sons and cousins became Little Ben & the Cheers who started performing in the area about the same time as the Jackson Five. Sadly, Little Ben passed some years ago.

Kevgo, many of the 700 labels used to make up the Detroit total were one and two record labels and with labels like Motown all of its labels are included separately in the count.

By Robb_K (66.81.23.183) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:52 pm:

SD's own Graham Finch (Acooolcat) is working on a project (book?) which concentrates on all non-Motown Detroit labels, with information about the releases, recordings, artists, producers, session musicians, etc. (all the information mentioned desired here). It's an amazingly extensive project. That's why he hasn't been posting here much in the last several weeks. When he finishes, it should be very interesting to see what he's amassed.

By RD (65.54.98.145) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:58 pm:

Robb, there's a website that has already done this to some extent, can't remember it's name. But they only researched Detroit labels, nobody has done this for Chicago record labels.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 04:09 am:

JF20

As RK says, Graham has been working on a book for a good number of years. From 1997 I think.

You will find Grahams work in our webisode section.

I am also proud to say that you will find detail there, which you will find nowhere else. Tera Shirma, Golden World, Detroit Studios, Darrell Banks, Rose Battiste etc etc.

Lowell is working right now on the presentation of Robert West's story. 28 web pages no less.

Graham has provided me with the Mike Hanks story. As story which has never been told anywhere before. That will be up and running this year.

Finally, and contrary to RD's opinion, someone does have research on Chicago Soul. Me.

I can tell you unequivocably that Chicago falls way short of Detroit in terms of infrastructure and output.

And until someone else can be bothered to spend the time examining this subject that info will have to be shown some respect.

David

P.S. If anyone would care to examine Pruter's book and report back on the number of labels and studios discussed that would give us a clue. Off the top I would say it is something like a dozen studios and 90 record labels.

Chicago Soul MK2 is therefore going to be some size to catch up with Detroit's 65 studios and 700 record labels.

Think about it.

By zeke (152.163.253.70) on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 08:00 am:

I hear you, SoulSister... Everyone who can't be a Star wants to, at least, be in the glow, I guess...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 01:40 pm:

Hey Zeke;
Not only that but they always have people (of the parasite variety) around trying to scam all their money away from them. Most singer's seem to have family member's that have no genuine love for their famous relative, alot of envy and resentment, who just want whatever materialistic things and esp. money they can con out of them. Thats the majority of them not the minority of them. I've witnessed a few upclose and heard the same thing about so many others and that goes from Smokey on down. Its a sad situation leaving the artist feeling used by his own family, the result being they have difficulty trusting anyone, even people who have only their best interest at heart, but when one doesn't or has never received real love from their own family its hard for them to find or accept it when it comes along. The baggage is bound to show up from time to time. Just a sad but realistic fact many in the limelight face, I suppose that goes for all entertainers, but it seems to run prevelant with singer's who bare their souls.

I'm done, time to fix lunch for my man(smile).

Take Care,
S.S.

By Eli (68.236.60.21) on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 01:42 pm:

Save me some of them groceries sis!!

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 01:49 pm:

Hey Bobby;
You know you got it if it makes you feel good! HA-HA-HA- don't worry there will be plenty of food for you to chow down on when 'you & Vonnie' visit. But leave some room for the studio and your gituar(smile)!
S.S.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 02:12 pm:

Sure wish I had someone to fix lunch for me.

By Gjeno (205.188.117.14) on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 11:37 am:

Brother Isaiah: Levi Stubbs never sang with the Midnighters.Maybe you meen Jackie Wilson?

By Frankie B. (65.35.203.15) on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 09:17 pm:

Motown doesn't make me angry..what makes me angry is when people refer to anything by a Black artist from @1960-1973 as "motown". A lot of the best soul music from that time period did indeed come from Motown, however, what's wrong with mixing it up a little??? "Oldies" stations in this area have no problem with soul music as long as its something off the soundtrack of "the big chill" but anything beyond "My Girl/Guy" or "I can't help myself" and they are lost. It's this kind of crap that makes soul enthusiasts hate Motown...I am admittedly very biased towards the Chicago sound as I originate from there, and I agree with the gentleman who feels that its musical heritage is a very rich and venerable one. I also contend that "soul" as anybody knows it started in 1958 with "For your precious love" by none other than one Curtis Mayfield of the Cabrini-Green projects and one of the first "spoken word raps" was "Bim Bam Boom" by the Eldorados of Englewood High school on Vee-Jay in 1956 (give it a listen sometime). Motown ain't bad...it just didn't come first.. As for Little Willie John..he is fantastic..I also love "A Cottage for sale" along with "You're a sweetheart" and "Let them talk" A great Detroit artist who got a lot less (and at the end, a whole lot more) than he deserved...

By Juicefree20 (151.205.100.23) on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 09:38 pm:

Dave, thanks for the info. As always, it's appreciated. I'm going to check out your leads, it should be both interesting & informative.

Juice

By royaljones (166.68.134.174) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 06:05 pm:

It sucks when you see that Barbara McNair has released a 2 disc compilation which includes mostly unreleased stuff . Which I do actually enjoy( mostly).there are others of less merit.perhaps she is poor example . but even less deserving artists are having their mediocre dreck recordings see the light of day.Who knew?....
Well what about the 150 unreleaqsed songs recorded by the extraordinary soulful Martha Reeves that remain unreleased to this day. Mr Solomon is familiar with this disservice. The late Bill Baaron was trying to remedy that but..but...what.?..I need to hear more...Martha Reeves,the Andantes,Syreeta,Flo B,Jean Terror,etc..pleeeez....before we're all dead and no one has the desire or even a clue as to what they're missing....get the goods out there.

By STONEWALL (68.237.107.94) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 01:51 pm:

For the filming of MOTOWN 45 (4/4), classic Motown stars such as SCHERRIE PAYNE, BRENDA HOLLOWAY, CLAUDETTE ROBINSON, et al. were sitting in the audience instead of being and performing on stage. Scherrie would have completed a real SUPREMES trio (and been the lead singer); Brenda would have been the sole female singer from the 1960s Motown golden years (especially w/ MARY WELLS no longer w/ us), and Claudette could have joined her husband and co-Miracle SMOKEY (in that duet on "I Second That Emotion"). All 3 instances were unnecessarily lost opportunities -- especially for the public and the even greater originality and authenticity of the show.

Note: Although Motown did not produce this show, they should have ensured greater input. Margolis Productions naturally wants the best show possible. Tune in May 17th. We know it will be swell but no doubt it could have been sweller!