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REQUIEM FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT - JACKIE WILSON...

SoulfulDetroit.com FORUM: Archive - Beginning March 27, 2004: REQUIEM FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT - JACKIE WILSON...

By ZEKE (64.12.96.238) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:25 pm:

REQUIEM FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT: JACKIE WILSON

http://www.popmatters.com/music/features/020628-blues11.shtml

MESSAGE TO ZEKE/ISAIAH

DESPITE ME ASKING YOU TO STOP COPYING THREADS FROM OTHER WEB SITES YOU CONTINUE TO DO SO.

DO IT AGAIN AND YOU WON'T BE POSTING HERE NO MORE.

DAVID

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:54 pm:

Its a bittersweet story that makes me feel joy of the energy of the Jackie I'd known and makes me cry for one of the greatest talents and sweetest men (when he wanted to be and he did have a good good heart)who is all but forgotten by most now. There will never be another Jackie, he was unique and special, a entertainer that comes along only once in a lifetime maybe once in 100 years, there was only one Jackie. All those that imitate some of his dance routines are just that one-dimentional, they are not the man, don't carry the dynamics of a Jackie Wilson.
We miss you "Sonny".
Always,J.

Isaiah, thanks for both the joy & the heartache when I think about Jackie.
S.S.

By Dinelle (68.222.42.193) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:26 pm:

My gosh. I never knew he boxed. That's a first.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.108.144) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 01:59 am:

Thanks for the article Isaiah. Sis, I was too young to really know him. All I know is that when I saw him at the Brevoort Theater when I was about 4 years old, he was great. The response that he received was amazing. Now, James Brown is my man, but Jackie received the same type of response as James, maybe even more so. I think that Jackie was considered to be sexier than James was. I would say that he had a natural animal magnetism. Sis, I wasn't old enough to know this for a fact & I'm no lady. Please tell me, am I close to the truth here?

Another thing that I must say: Whenever you see a good dancing singer of today, you see the influence of James Brown & most definitely Jackie Wilson. God, I wish that he had recorded for a label like Atlantic or Motown. Could you imagine what his legacy would have been? He's great as it is, but just imagine how much larger he could have been. Damn, that's just downright scary! I grew up on Jackie Wilson & James Brown. Lord knows that Jackie deserved better! I miss him, Jackie was the only Soul singer that could make Danny Boy sound great. Mow, that was a performance!

Thanks for the props Isaiah, too many people have forgotten Jackie. There's not a singer today who could touch Jackie's voice & range. This brother could have sang Caruso under the table!

Juicefree20

By SPYDER (209.240.205.62) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 03:07 am:

MY ALLTIME FAVORITE !!!WHAT PIPES!!!
A SINGERS SINGER IN THE FIRST DEGREE

By zeke (152.163.253.70) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 03:40 am:

Some more on Jackie Wilson's last years... An article from the Village Voice entitled, JACKIE WILSON'S LONELY TEARS... Unbelievable....

http://www.billyprice.com/village_voice.html

Peace!
zeke

By Dayo (81.134.177.82) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 10:34 am:

What an interesting read, thank you.

J.W. was an incredible talent and much admired on this side of the pond.

On a personal note, the first record that ever truly touched me was one of Jackie's. I must have been 12 or 13 when my brother in law spooled some soul records onto a reel to reel tape for me. I got hooked, and I do mean hooked, onto "I'm the one to do it". Used to spin that tape back and forth, back and forth to hear that song over and over. . .

Then of course there is the heart rending "Uh..." two thirds into "Sweetest Feeling". Did any singer ever put more feeling into a single syallable non-word!?

Colin

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:02 pm:

Mornin'Juice;
Yes undeniably Jackie oozed sex appeal, he was the definition of animal magnatism but yet he was SO MUCH MORE, he was a true man's man, he was funny, had a great sense of humor, but most of all a kind kind understanding heart, he was gallant! Thats not to say he wasn't human or didn't have the faults, all of us do, because he did, he could get emotionally upset esp. when he was denied access to his own son for example, he also could get angry if he had too much to drink. But he never ego-tripped, and was a much more reasonable and fairer-minded man than the great JB. Jackie was just a beautiful person liked by both men & woman, and he did respect women unlike others in the feild. Another thing you see people who may work for an entertainer or just be a hanger-on who had attitudes about their importance, I have to laugh because Jackie as big as he was, never ever acted like that nor did the people I knew around him act like that, unlike some around JB! Jacke was a tremendous talent, he had a gift for dnacing, stage routines, and that beautiful voice, good looks and charm, Jackie was just a guy who had it all in one, thats what made him rare and stand out, Jackie had it all in one nice tight package.(smile). I never dated Jackie our friendship was platonic but I loved everything about him, he was a complete man, one couldn't help but feel admiration for this man. When I think about how he was treated in the last years of his life, it hurts alot, a strong, strong man reduced to a weakened state only to be disrespected and abused by cruel & jealous people. I cried for Jackie's state and the helplessness of it all many times. I wished at the time I was rich enough to change his circumstances but I was not. So sad. So sad to be forgotten by most today. Jackie Wilson was truly the genuine article all around. No, there will never be another Jackie.

Speaking of "Danny Boy" my favorite and incidently Jackie's favorite too!! In all fairness Patti LaBelle does a fabulous job with that song, but NO ONE comes close to Jackie's version, the way he does acrobatics, operatic vocal range especially when he sings 'ánd down the mountain side', Jackie doing that particular song never fails to bring me to tears.

Juice, thats the whole thing to sum up Jackie in the nutshell.(smile).
S.S.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:22 pm:

I would add to the 1968, falling out between Jackie & Tarnapol was very personal involving his ex, she became his ex from that moment on when Jackie left his Dorchester Apartment and turned up at the Alvin Hotel that night I was there hanging with Alonzo Tucker, Jimmy Lee Smith, & the group, when Jackie arrived, it was tragic and Jackie was never the same from that moment on he went downhill.
I still maintain his heart attack was more than suspicious when he was expected to turn courts evidence on Tarnapol and the Brunswick mob-machine. When Laverne Baker witnessed what force they threatened Jackie with one-time, she headed to the Phillipines for the next twenty years! Alot of this is fairly common knowledge.
S.S.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.115.78) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 08:06 pm:

Hey Sis, thanks for the info. I kind of figured that you would say that. Regarding the trial, I never thought about that. I remember reading a book, I think it was Chicago Soul where they were interviewing Eugene Record. I remember that he didn't even want to speak about the situation "on the record". It seems as though that was one heavy situation at that label. I don't recall the specifics with his ex. Yes, some may not want to speak about it, but it was known on the streets & the streets know a lot more than people would like to admit.

By Isaiah (152.163.253.70) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 09:46 pm:

Juice, your knowledge of the industry in astounding, and Soul Sister, well you're a veritable repository of info... My understanding is that Nat Tarnapol, because of his mentor Al Green, had a reputation as being mob connected... Tarnaplo, apparently used that to intimidate Jackie Wilson, and others whom he managed...

JBut I don't think it's about Tarnapol anymore... I am an advocate of researching a thing at its roots, and Jackie's problems were manifest long before he met Tarnapol, or Al Green, or anyone else who might've used or abused him... Jackie's upbringing did him in, as it does so many of these artists... When you are, essentially, totally uneducated, you are unprepared to deal with those who are, and that is at the root of the sad abuses that took place in Jackie's life and career... Not only that, but that he never chose to educate himself beyond being an entertainer, which he was an expert at... One the one hand, I have always felt sorry for Jackie Wilson, but as I gather more information, that feeling is begining to wear thin... I just cannot see how anyone reaches their 35th birthday, their 40th birthday, and they're still dealing with the same issues they had to deal with on their 25th birthday... A great philosopher once said that those who do not progress go into recess... Nobody typifies that more than Jackie Wilson... The man never seemed to take responsibility over his own life and business affairs... He seemed more preoccupied with dissipating himself, than disciplining himself... Sorry, but as a man, I cannot respect that beyond a certain age...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:16 pm:

Isaiah;
You are correct in what you say as far as business prctices go but I tell you there was more, much more,( i'm not at liberty to go into) to Jackie's story than lack of education, his life was threaten in a very physical way thru demonstration. But after what went down that night in 1968 with his ex & Tarnapol, he didn't care anymore and was finally standing up to his oppressor but he also lost his son because of greed and it noticably took a toll on him. People in general, not just entertainers in the recording industry, weren't as hip to the operations of things when they entered the business, things didn't change for anyone until recent years. Its not an excuse just a fact of the 1950's & 60's, when entertainer's hands were tied as to weather they work or not. If you didn't play the man's game you didn't work period. I don't blame you for not respecting Jackie's business sense but I ask you to at least be understanding if not compassionate about his background and the lifestyle it caused him to ultimately fall into. Not all are strong enough to progress in ways we'd all like to see, for their own good.
Peace,
S.S.

By ZeKe (152.163.253.70) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:31 pm:

Soul Sister, I feel you, and respect your knowledge of Jackie's situation far more than you might realize... And I am very compassionate - have been for years... My problem is that I have not gotten a balanced view of things... I've gotten the story from his wife, and others sympathetic to Jackie, but that, unfortunately, is never the whole story... I guess the bottom line for me is always balance...

Though my feelings for Jackie have always been sympathetic, I wonder at what point does Jackie bear some responsibility for his own life... I realize that I never really asked that question until recently, when I began to read of guys like Sam Cooke, Curtis Mayfield and J.B... They took repsonsibility of their own careers, they wrote their own songs, and tried to control something... It just appears, now, that Jackie wasn't concerned with those things, never sought an angle, never sought any advice about how to get hold of his situation... Maybe I am a little disappointed about that...

Peace!
Isaiah

By dvdmike (68.23.160.199) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:37 pm:

The only person I ever met who carried thousand dollar bills in his wallet.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:57 pm:

Isaiah;
Thanks for the acknowledgement.
I do agree, I've been a little disapointed myself with those situations, that goes for Jimmy's too, he's partly at fault too just not the biggest part, again in his case there's impossible circumstances.
Which one of Jackie's wives are you referring too, if I may ask? ( If its the one I was referring too, then "story" IS the key word, and I'll just be diplomatic and leave it right there).
Smile,
S.S.

By Catsmeow (64.12.96.238) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:04 pm:

Soul Sister - Can you email me privately with what you are not at liberty to say here in the forum?

Thanks,
Cat

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 01:42 pm:

Catsmeow;
Who are you??? And what makes this any of your business???
Soul Sister to Jackie!

By Catsmeow (64.12.96.238) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:33 pm:

Soul Sister -

My question to you Jeannie is - what makes any of this your business? Do you think that it is appropriate to make inflamitory and innacurate statements about people who you do not even know?
Do you have anything better to do with your time?
You claim you knew Jackie, which I find speculative. But did you ever once meet or talk to Harlean? Or Nat?

To answer your question, I am the person who is going to sue you if you make one more inaccurate statement about Harlean Wilson or Nat Tarnopol. Have a nice day Jeannie.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:40 pm:

A prime example of why we need to curb excesses on the website.

Controversy should never be courted IMO.

David

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 04:40 pm:

Catsmeow;
1. You know not what I speak of.
2. What I know is for me to know as I was right there when a particular incident went down, the others I mentioned were there as well, not that any thing needs to be explained to a no name instigator as yourself who knows not what you speak of CATSMEOW, everyone knows who Iam, who the hell are you faker??? Everyone that knows me knows I'm sincere.

David;
You are so correct, and yes, we should have a registry to keep out the annonymous garbage who have nothing better to do with their in their life but insight trouble wherever their presence is. Its a shame there is alot of sick people in this world without concious. I just get home from spending most of the day at the hospital and this is the garbage I see. Don't worry David, I'm not going to respond to this trash anymore, I've more important things to do. I'll respond only to the real people of SD. Thanks for your input.
S.S.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 04:49 pm:

Thanks Soul Sister.

Hopefully there will be changes coming soon to the forum via new software.

David

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 05:02 pm:

David;
Thats wonderful news, and from what others have been saying, this news will make them very happy too!
All The Best,
S.S.

By Juicefree20 (141.149.48.132) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 05:18 pm:

Hey Soul Sister, what's up?? I thought that you showed restraint regarding your remarks about the things that Jackie went through in the 60s. The things that you stated were common knowledge to most who frequented the nightlife in those days. Furthermore, what you have written has been well documented in various books & articles. I've yet to hear of ONE lawsuit for libel, or, anything else. I, too was wondering what you were not at liberty to say. I respectfully refrained from asking you, as I figured that it was too personal for this forum. I don't see where you went overboard & whether it was pretty, or, not so pretty, the truth was the truth. My father was around industry figures back in those days. You were quite restrained in your statements. I'm sorry to see that it offended some. Be yourself & keep being honest

Juicefree20

Juicefree20

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 05:40 pm:

Hi Juicefree20;
Yes, just as you heard, as you say it has been all over, at least its nothing new on the soul side of town (smile). Anything more personal that I may have privy to I would never discuss on anyone's forum. There are more informed persons than myself that are still around today who know even way more than I do, and they know the whole truth. I may have not known the part I know if I hadn't been at the right place at the wrong time that particular night at the Alvin. There are crazy people, jealous people, & pathetic people all around entertainers(whether they know them or not)in this business for all time, I don't expect that to change now, I've learned to pretty much ignore them and their foolishness, such a waste.
Juice, the truth is the only way it can be even if it pains me. Thank you for your positive input and support, its much appreciated, beleive me.
Take Care,
S.S.

By catsmeow (152.163.253.70) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:00 pm:

Dear Soul Sister (Jeannie)

I quote your post:

"2. What I know is for me to know as I was right there when a particular incident went down, the others I mentioned were there as well, not that any thing needs to be explained to a no name instigator as yourself who knows not what you speak of CATSMEOW, everyone knows who Iam, who the hell are you faker??? Everyone that knows me knows I'm sincere."

I do have a name, it's Mara Tarnopol. Nat's my father. Im not a faker either Jeannie. I do know what I speak of and I am not an instigator. I've not been here posting things about a label and people who I never met. But you sure are. your posts about my father and the Brunswick Label are in fact libelous. I dont care what you think you heard on the soul side of ths street. I don't care about you being at the Alvin theatre. What you've posted here is gross, untrue and outright mean. Rumors are powerful, hurtful and very often exagerated and untrue. I wish you all the best here Soul Sister and I do hope you realize that in the end, the only thing you're really doing is creating your own karma. Have fun, but rest assured, if I see one more untrue post from you about Nat, you will hear form my attorney.

Sincerely,
Mara Tarnopol

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 07:25 pm:

Catsmeow/Mara;
First off thanks for saying who you are and not some passing instigator. Iám sorry you took my post about Jackie so offensively, it was not my intention to cause you any greif. I would only wish you peace I wish for everyone. Of course it is hurtful to hear things about one's own father but I assure you I said nothing, re-read my post, I disclosed nothing, so I don't see what your getting at.
Everyone knows the history of Brunswick, I never had to say a thing in reguards to that. I have met people but thats neither here or there. As for the Alvin its not a theater its a hotel where Jackie & his band spent time at. You say what I posted is gross, untrue and outright mean, yet I said nothing, so if your insinuating something then its something you've heard from others that you think I know too, as I maintain read my post I said nothing. I did say whatever I witnessed I would keep to myself, and that was about Jackie, I've always been loyal to those who were always loyal to me. If thats a crime so be it.
Mara, I mean you no personal harm thats not my make up, but to defend someone whom wasn't treated fairly darn skippy, thats where my heart is at. I do wholeheartly agree with you rumors are powerful & hurtful, I often defended against them so I would not perpetuate them, trust in that. I'm sorry you took it that way, I only I wish you, Mara, wellness and peace of mind. God Bless.
As I promised David I wouldn't carry this thread on so I'll leave you with only good wishes for the future. All the best.
Sincerely,
Soul Sister

By stephanie (69.138.239.31) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 08:17 pm:

David
I dont understand what is wrong with copying an article from another site especially if you have the link to prove where it came from please enlighten me
stephanie

By fayette (64.12.96.238) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 05:23 am:

maria for the sake of us not know who you are
or your father enlighten us.and why are you so defensive.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:08 am:

Stephanie

Websites are all about hits.

ie. everytime you come into SoulfulDetroit the system registers that fact. That is important, very important.

If we sit here and read the text from the other site we might not feel inclined to click on that site. That site misses out on hits therefore.

A website had to close down last year because of a lawyers letter received in relation to copying text and throwing in the link. Exactly as goes on here.

The detail is in the archives but I can't remember the site name....It was Soulxxxxxxx.

Can anyone help with the site name to dig up the proof of this?

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:40 am:

I have the answer.

Go to Search Forum on the left hand side of your screen.

Type in :-
Soulwalking

Read the debacle.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:48 am:

The web site appears to be up and running again.

Read however "what happended in 2003" plus of course our thread.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:59 am:

I think what happened with SW is that he was using text from BOOKS, but still registering where he got the detail from.

Technically speaking this is similar to lifting text and crediting the link.

The penultimate sentence in our conditions explains our stance.

By isaiah (152.163.253.70) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:55 am:

Ms. Tarnapol, I see your dad taught you well, with the threats and intimidation tactics... Why not sue folks who've put their feelings about your dad in books??? Afraid they gone bring attorneys to the table more high-powered than yours??? I didn't know nothing about Nat Tarnapol hntil Harlean Wilson, Berry Gordy, Hal Jackson, and Roquel "Billy" Wilson told me about him - and their stories weren't pleasant... No need to go after someone posting things on a discussion board unless you really FEAR what that individual has to say can hurt you... But it's real dumb to threaten someone out front, and so publicly - real dumb...

Peace!
Isaiah

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 09:06 am:

Isaiah

What are you trying to do to this website?

By stephanie (69.138.239.31) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:09 am:

david
are we allowed to post an article as long as we put the LINK up? I posted something regarding Chubby Checker from Yahoo and put the story up I copied and pasted it I didnt put the link. Should I put the link in the future or the story AND the link?
Stephanie

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:30 am:

Yes David, Toby had a very rough go regarding the Biographical info & everything. I thought that his site had some excellent info. He's rebuilding, but is nowhere near completion.

David, I'm sure that none of us mean any harm whatsoever. I'm sure that I may have done something similar, with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, the lawyers certainly don't agree with us. I think that it would be helpful if someone better versed in the law than I, would start a thread regarding the legal do's & don'ts regarding these situations. I, for one, do not fully understand them, as there are so many things to watch for. It would be most helpful to have the rudiments explained. What do you think David? Or, is there already a thread somewhere regarding this?

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:40 am:

Stephanie

All you have to do is provide your own introduction. Then beneath it type in the link.

That way you have lifted nothing. In fact you have helped another website.

Perfect example:-

I found this great website the other day
http://capitolsoulclub.homestead.com

By catsmeow (64.12.96.238) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:03 pm:

Isaiah -

There are plenty of stories that go around. None of it scares me. If something is said that I know is not true or is crossing the line however, I am going to defend my father as he is not here to defend himself. period. The quote below is an example of what crosses the line.

"I still maintain his heart attack was more than suspicious when he was expected to turn courts evidence on Tarnapol and the Brunswick mob-machine"

If you think my adressing something untrue with legal action is "threats and intimidation tactics" then clearly you are looking at this from only one side. That's your choice. God bless you.

Furthermore Isaiah, The people with whom you mention told you stories about Nat, with the exception of Berry Gordy, have all been in contact with Brunswick and have been wonderfully supportive and friendly. If they also have bad things to say about Nat, they have not shared them with us.

Peace to you as well.
Mara

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 02:27 pm:

JF20
I saw a programme on tv two years ago which said that website owners and even those who provided connections may one day be held responsible for what is allowed to remain on forums.

Today sees the fourth such instance of lawyer talk on this forum and I don't need to tell you what that does to me.

David

By Isaiah (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 02:34 pm:

David, I told you yesterday what my recourse would be, and I have not posted any articles since then... I will probably NEVER again share articles with this forum, because that appears to be what you want... I not even going to entertain that last question, David... It seems to me that you are an extremely paranoid cat, running in fear of your own freakin' shadow...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:10 pm:

David, I've heard the same thing. I keep up with PC World, PC Magazine & The like. I know some of what the FCC has up their sleeves & it's not pretty. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with a few of the posts here.

David, I'm with you. I also don't like the lawyer talk. While there was issue taken with what Soul Sister posted, she didn't post it as fact. It was posted as her opinion. There's a big difference between the two. It's much like when a newspaper speaks of an "alleged" criminal. The word "alleged" makes all the difference in the world. You see, they can't call the person a criminal until they are tried & found guilty in a court of law. In fact, Soul Sister clearly stated that SHE maintained, she didn't present it as fact. The fact that she used the word MAINTAINED, renders it an opinion, a belief, not a fact. In America, people are entitle to their beliefs. Unless she PRINTED it as fact, it was not libelous. Unless she SAID it as fact, it was not slanderous. Unpleasant, perhaps, but not a breach of the law. There's a difference.

What's being insinuated here is that Soul Sister is a liar. Her account of a situation from 1968 as well as her relationship with Jackie is being called into question. Can it be proven with facts that Soul Sister wasn't there? Can it be proven that Soul Sister didn't know Jackie in those days? So, I guess that we're to assume that Soul Sister is a liar, when that may not be the case at all & that's not fair. If there had been facts presented that had proved that Sister was lying, it should have been presented, rather than her being threatened with a lawsuit.

The day one can't voice an opinion here in America, is the day that we're all in trouble. That becomes Communism, or, a police state, where voicing an opposing point of view can cost you your life. Is that really where we are here? For further edification regarding some of this, there is a wonderful book, Chicago Soul by Robert Pruter, that touches on some of this. Pages 287-288 are quite informative. Joe McEwen in the book Jackie Wilson weighs in with his opinion as well. I've yet to hear where any of these people were ever charged with libel.

The other thing that I found to be wrong, was the fact that Soul Sister was being prompted to send an e-mail to an anonymous person. I was obvious to me that Sister had something on her chest, but, she refrained from saying anything. She took pains to do so. So, why was she being goaded into sendind a private e-mail, that was only going to be used against her? Trying to entice her into incriminating herself was unfair, David, that was definitely unfair.

If it had been me, I would have stated my name, then stated my opposition to the statement. I would challenge the person there & then, not resort to trying to get them to respond outside of the forum. I would have been willing to have dialog with them off forum, to discuss the matter. After that, if it was obvious that the person was a fraud, I'd be compelled to insist that they cease & desist. Even if Sister had sent a private reply, what would it mean? How could anyone prove who was where, much less, what they saw, considering the passage of nearly 36 years?

There's a big difference between the truth & what people are willing to admit. Because a person is cordial & helpful 40 years after the fact, doesn't mean that they like, much less respect you. Business is business & money, as well as the passage of time smooths over a lot of flaws & bad feelings. Another fact is I'm sure that no child has full knowledge of their parents doings, they're not supposed to know some things. Just as no parent truly knows every action of their child. Just because you didn't know about something, doesn't mean that it never happened. It just means that maybe you didn't know about it.

I too, have a father & he has done some things that just weren't cool. If someone happens to mention that he did somethings that weren't correct, what can I say? How could I get mad if it is a fact. The true shame of it all is that Jackie can't speak for any of this & dead men tell no tales. As far as who's right or wrong, I don't know. I do know that I haven't seen any major writers, magazines or publishers found guilty of libel in any court of law. Perhaps if the aggrieved would shine light on the truth, we'd all learn something & put the alleged rumors to rest for once & all. The silence about what's been printed in books has been deafening.

So, while I understand where Mara's coming from, she has to understand why others feel as they do. I've yet to read any form of rebuttal regarding what's been printed in magazines, or books regarding this. Perhaps, she can work on her memoirs, perhaps her perspective would help dispell the "rumors" that have been in print, yet, still unchallenged, for many years now. I believe in equal time for all. I've heard the other side, I'd love to hear her side of the story for a change.

I just don't feel that threats of lawsuits are the way to go here. It will settle nothing & will not clear up any inaccuracies regarding this. All that it does it make people dig in even harder. If our beliefs are wrong, I'm open to the truth. The point is, who's going to tell the truth. I'll be waiting. In the spirit of disclosure, as I felt that Mara should not have made herself anonymous, I will stand by my words:

Respectfully I am
Julius Freeman (Juicefree20)

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:14 pm:

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:15 pm:

David, I'm sorry about the double posting.

By zeke (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 08:45 pm:

Juice, What's Up, HomeGrown!(smile!)

Nice post, spoken with great reason and eloquence... I was hinting at the very same thing, and I am glad that you elaborated on it more fully... Excellent! Thanks much for voicing a strong opinion against threats and intimidation, and for freedom of speech within the law...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:04 pm:

What's up Isaiah? Good to see you. Understand me, I do have empathy toward Mara. I can only imagine if that were my mother or father being thought of in that manner. If someone was to outright accuse my mother of something that couldn't be proven, I'd react as she did. However, if someone voiced their opinion, I'd react to that. I'll readily admit that I'd likely not like to hear or read such opinions. However, I wouldn't talk of lawsuits, as I realize that opinions are like you know what & everyone's got one. However, before one starts tossing around the idea of lawsuits, they need to understand what types of behavior & speech constitutes a lawsuit. To me, that was bogus & I thought that was a bit unfair. Not only was it unfair to Sister, but to all of us, especially to David. I didn't like, much less appreciate her tactics one bit.

Let's say that you don't like my opinion & you tell me that you think I'm an a-- & that in your opinion, I'm gay. Now, I'm not going to go sue you over that. I know the truth, those who know me know the truth. If that's what you believe, more power to you. Then, I'd have to drag poor David into the mess. That's silly, because we're all adults here. Though I'd like to see peace, harmony & respect here, I'd also like to see world peace. I realize the difference between what I'd like to see & reality. Now, multiply that by everyone who has a contrary opinion & feels attacked or slighted. You get my point? After awhile, it gets tedious, unwieldy & out of control. In the long run, it takes us away from our primary reason for being here...the quest for knowledge.

Once we start editing opinions that are stated in a non vulgar manner, we're all in danger of being censored. That is not what this country is about. That is to say, it's not supposed to be anyway. We're all going to have our fellings tweaked, that's life in the real world. I'll express my views in the most intelligent way that I know. I won't play into anyone's hands & give them the satisfaction of getting down & dirty, if that's how they choose to present themselves. That diminishes me & that's too much power to give anyone where I'm concerned.

Now, I'm no disciple of the turn the other cheek book of teaching. But, think about this: when you watched the NBA, remember all of the crap that Laimbeer, Malone, Ainge & Stockton used to get away with on the low? Who got the fouls & the T's? The guy who violently lashed out & got caught swinging. Meanwhile, the band played on. Even though restraint is a very difficult thing to harness, it's sometimes very effective. There's more than one way to skin a cat, not that I'm encouraging any such behavior.

Have you ever seen an argument where one guy's screaming like a lunatic & getting red in the face, yet, the other party is calm, somewhat restrained, while still getting his point across? The other guys about to have a heart attack or lose his mind. Funnier still, he's even angrier because the other party wouldn't give him the satisfaction of engaging in a screaming match. I tell you, that's one funny sight. Who does the crowd look at as though he's crazy? In the end, who looks like the fool? You get what I'm saying? Think about what I'm saying Zeke, I know that you understand me. We cannot allow anyone to push us to that point. There are people just sitting back, eating candy & enjoying the show.

In addition to that, it just adds to that "See, I told you so" type of thinking. Reactions like that are expected of some of us, some people get off on that. I refuse to allow the bad seeds to use me for their enjoyment, then smoke a cigarette afterward at my expense. They wouldn't even have the decency to give me a metrocard, or, a kiss on the cheek for a job well done. Nah, there's a better way to deal with the madness. Are you feeling this?

Zeke, I wanted to touch base with you about the posting issue. I want you to read once more what David wrote about it. When you do read it, I want you to think about it a little. David has a point that may have been overlooked through all of the anger, & it is important. When you read it again, get back to me @ Juicefree@ hotmail.com. Let me know if you agree with me.

I sincerely hope that this is the end of such misadventures. Again, I just didn't appreciate the heavy handed tactics & overall disrespect shown to Sister. If the roles had been reversed, I'd have told Sister the same thing. In this case, right is right. This site, Sister, nor David should have to operate under that type of threat. That's plain wrong, I'm sorry if my stance offended anyone. I don't believe in throwing rocks while hiding your hand. I dislike this "anonymous" thing & as such, I submit this..

Respectfully, I am

Julius Freeman (Juicefree20)

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 05:44 am:

Isaiah

I make it that you still have 750 + postings on our website.

Like your latest message to me, much of it is bitter and repulsive IMO.

David

By Isaiah (64.12.96.238) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 06:51 am:

David, unlike yourself, I really am not held subject to other folks's opinions... So you can continue to attempt to goad me into an explosion papa, but it aint gone happen(smile!) I know precisely the tone and tenor of my posts, and I've contributed nothing but great information to your little board... In the meantime, you moderator refers to people as a "son-of-a-bitch" and an "ass-hole", and you highly regard him... What does that say about you, David??? In the future, don't address me, David... Can ya do that for a brother, David... Just step off, and leave me be as you would anyone else...

Peace!
Isaiah

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 08:00 am:

Isaiah

It says I'm an ass-hole.

As for you bringing great information to my little board. I'm sorry, but I have learned a big fat zero from you on the subject of music history.

SoulfulDetroit is a music history website. Get it.

I will respect your wishes and stop goading you. Any chance of you reciprocating?

We may have little time left to exchange hugs and kisses.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 04:25 pm:

Good Afternoon David;
Hope you are doing well today.
I know I promised you not to write anything else on this thread and I do promise not to be inflammatory but I feel after certain accusations have been spoken hear that puts my credability in question I now feel compelled to address those statements. I will stick to the facts as I know them to be. Please bare with me David, as I read all the other threads with all that controversy going on I see people going on & on about it, I will not do that here and have always tried to avoid uneccessary controversy... but since others have a right to defend themselves over and over, I would like to have the right to do the same at least once and then I'll move on off of this topic for good.

Hello Isaiah and Juicefree20;
I hope you don't mind me addressing you together. I wanted to thank both of you for giving it straight, standing up for freedom of speech and everyone's rights. Personally I'd like to say thank you for that and your support.

Mara Tarnapol does not know me, you have asked the question "then why is she (if in fact, it is really her) making this so personally directed at me".(?) Good question, the answer is that the only way she would know anything at all about me, is from someone who calls himself her friend, psyched the poor child up to this by feeding her info about both the thread, me, and what I have witnessed one night in 1968 when Jackie arrived at the Alvin Hotel after leaving his former home.
This person called me sometime last year when this topic came up as a friend and asked what I knew, I trusted him enough to tell him. He then informed me, when he contacted Jackie's former 'roadman'/bodyguard/babysitter the man told him the exact same thing, whom I never talked with and don't know personally, (other than when I took some photos of him with Jackie's son back in the day when Petey was 4 or 5 years old), confirmed the same thing I said! Now, I ask myself why would he ( the person who is a so called friend of Mara) want to cause everyone trouble by unleasing this madness.(?) Its already been discussed and acknowledged so why incite Ms.Tarnapol over it? What was the point? And in the end what has he accomplished? This is what I truly call "bad karma".

In so far as my credability goes its fairly common knowledge about me being on the scene especially in the NY area. From Jackie's camp Alonzo Tucker was a good friend to me and to Jackie, and he helped alot of people, a good person who's songs were ripped off for writing credits. I'm sure Mara knows as the rest of the world knows, her father put her infant brother's name down on at least one of theose songs, its been in print many times before. Jimmy Lee Smith was the friend whom I was sitting chatting with that night when Jackie showed up at the Alvin and all hell broke loose. I don't know where Jimmy Lee is today but I did try to locate him the last time this discussion came up. I even contacted Tony Douglas through the goodness of my friend Tony Drake to see if he knew Jimmy Lee's whereabouts but he did not. The picture in Tony's book thats uncredited of Jimmy Lee is one of many I took, I still have the original and the negative some 37 years later. Mara made the comment my knowing Jackie was speculative, more force-fed propaganda. I'm still puzzeled as to why??? Besides Jimmy Lee, there are entertainers from 'back in the day' that are still around today that can verify I knew Jackie and a whole lot of others too. In fact, two people from the forum who've went to a couple of different recent concerts and tapings talked to singers from different groups that know me. I'm not telling this for the benefit of most forum members who know I'm genuine from previous postings and photos from back in the day to boot! No, this is to let uninformed people know the real deal. For anyone who wants further information to fill any of the holes (that I never personally discussed about that night in 1968) all they have to do is read it in print themselves cause, baby, none of this is made up...See the link to "The Jackie Wilson Story The Man, The Music, & The Mob" or just read the book. This is very old news to us veterans but may be eye-opening to those under 45 and the uninformed. I say to the person who questions my credability, who wasn't even born before 1969 to get your facts straight. I see your all over this forum with your attitude but no where near here this time around. Hmm...ain't that interesting food for thought. Out of all the fights and mud-slinging on the forum I've only had a strong disagreement with two people in the past, one came to my aid here who stands up for people's rights, does the other one harbor an old grudge? Is that whats going on here? Life is too short. If Mara's (if, its Mara) threatening to sue I have only this to say, if this threat is out of greed or you think because I'm married to a recording artist you'll get alot of money (chuckle), then I have only this to say to you, you'll only waste your own time and your own money. Besides, I never said anything that wasn't in print probably a hundred times over, its in articles, books, & court records. About my personal life experiences(good or bad), the friends I met along the way I will defend to the day I die. Mara, if its just about you defending your father I can understand it, it can be very emotional and in that I sympathize with you and would just add I wish you a blessed, peaceful, & joyful life. If it "is" you, then we are both victims in this set-up. Why would a friend of yours want to hurt or incite you.(?) Its a mystery to me too. That is the person who will ultimately end up with the bad karma. Creating anger in people is evil.
Take Care
With Respect & Sincerety,
Soul Sister

By Vonnie (205.188.113.27) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 08:28 pm:

SoulSister,

I had a incident in my life that would put a spin on why certain things are kept silent from others. I had an acquaintence that had a problem with taking others possessions. I had no way of knowing they had a problem like this, but when they took some of my possessions; I mentioned this fact to another friend and they said it had happened to them also. I questioned the friend and asked them why did they not tell me this beforehand, well they said no one wants to tell a friend that the person they consider a friend is really not one.

I also was privy to another situation where the individual was cheating on their spouse. I was a witness to their cheating because they tried to make me their conquest. I am a friend to this individuals daughter, but I will go to my grave with this information. I would never tell her about her fathers flaw.

The situations that you speak about have the same markings as the ones that I describe above. People hide what they know to protect the innocent. I feel that you did not divulge anything that had not been previously alleged in various printed forms. I can understand a child protecting their parents, I would do the same. However; just because a parent never told you about certain things that they did in their life does not mean that they did not happen.

Vonnie

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 09:04 pm:

Vonnie;
Amen to that.
Now its time to put to rest the madness of the person who pretended to be two people's friend, then threw the rock and hid his hand. Betrayal is the lowest it makes you wonder how these people sleep at night.
Thanks for your insightful input. You don't post as often as some but when you do, you really nail it.
Your Soul Sis

By Juicefree20 (151.204.159.54) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:36 pm:

Good Evening Soul Sister, Vonnie & to all!
This is one discussion that is sensitive in nature. I think that Vonnie made a good point. I have another spin on disclosure. Tell me what you think & then we can move on.

I know someone who was well liked by just about everyone. Upright, outstanding family man & the whole nine. Unfortunately, this man, had a thing for molesting young girls, even his step-daughter. This behavior continued for years, until someone finally spoke out. Of course, everybody was shocked, not this righteous man, not this good family man. Some people still refused to believe it & defended him, even the girls' mother. That girl must have really felt great, huh? The fact was that more than a few people knew of his habit, yet, they remained silent. Why? Because no one wanted to cause trouble. He was a good man, he helped a lot of people, you know. Indeed! I wonder how many young girls would have been spared if just ONE person had spoken out in the beginning? It might have saved many young girls from emotional & physical distress & suffering.

However, I don't believe that there can be any thing gained by continuing this thread. It just bothers me that it will look as though someone bullied this discussion into oblivion. That doesn't sit right with me. Sister, you know what you know & as you stated nothing specific, you don't have to prove a thing to me. I strongly defend your right to your opinion, as well as your right to state it.

I know that you didn't make your statement with the intent to injure anyone, especially Mara. I feel for her, I know that she must be upset about this. I know that you were upset because you were also speaking up for someone that you obviously loved, that you believed had been wronged as well. What you know, you know. If someone chooses to engage in mistruths & instigation, what can you do? It is most unfortunate that the people that you feel that you can trust the most, often turn out to be people you can trust the least.

As your intent is not to injure, I agree with you regarding the ending of this thread. I feel that everyone got their points across & they're duly noted. I think that we can let this one rest. For those who are interested, they can buy the books, if they can still find them. I know that I'm not going to pay $216 for Lonely Teardrops, as it is out of print.

Sister, world history has proven that people don't want truth. The truth is often painful & we may have to accept the simple fact that some of our greatest heroes have feet of clay. As we well know, people don't like that. The lack of honesty & forthrightness, has cost many people their lives. If it is any comfort to you, remember this: People lied on ONE greater than us all. Remember why he died? Because he SPOKE THE TRUTH! Consider yourself to be in good company!
Finally, as one one is here to state their case, it's time to close the door on this one. Let's let everyone rest in peace. You can rest assured in the knowledge that whatever was done in dark, will surely come to light. There's ONE who knows the truths that even we don't know. Justice is sometimes slow, but is is sure. When our time comes, there will be only one opinion that will matter & that opinion belongs to our Maker. None of us will be able to argue with Him!

As for me, I will pray that I may be correct in my dealings with others & that truth will be in my heart. I pray for you as well as everyone else here. May God bless us all!

Respectfully! I am
Julius Freeman (Juicefree20)

By Isaiah (68.38.216.63) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 05:22 am:

David, you have a very skewered perspective, one blurred by your own personal hatreds and personal bitterness, and envy, sir... All YOU have to do to SEE that you've contradicted yourself on everyone of your postings to this thread, is look at Dinelle and Juice's postings, and see where they admit to learning some new things about Jackie Wilson from this posting, and the postings of others - excepting your vile and bitter and petty self - have positive reviews of what was posted... I don't post for your benefit, David, though everytime I open my mouth on the culture of African Americans, David, YOU learn something you didn't know, son - believe that...

Isaiah does NOT need to sit and read a thousand books on the topic to teach you about that, Mr Full-Time Wannabe... I'm gone leave you in your fantasies about hugs and kisses fool, because that's as close you'll ever get to any kind of meeting with me... One thing I have no use for is phony-assed, two-faced, double-dealing assholes like yourself, dig, David???

Peace!
Isaiah

By Lord Parrot-Raj (213.122.213.162) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 05:23 am:

Yawn........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ........Yawn

Somebody please wake me up after this tedious and immature thread ends. Can we talk about great Detroit soul music? Can I put forward Freddie Gormans "The Day will come" on Miracle as a sheer masterclass of Motown. I thank you, yes I do.

Lord Parrot-Raj

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 05:37 am:

Isaiah

Many thanks for kind words.

David

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 05:44 am:

Lord Parrot-Raj

You're right to be concerned and bored.

Please bear with us while we weed out the trash with our new software.

Coming soon..............

David

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 08:55 am:

Juicefree20;
Well put, good insight, honest good thoughts. Thank you Juice, you are the voice of reason. Its a pleasure and honor to know your here on this forum to tell it like it is. God Bless.
Sincerely,
S.S.

By Nosey (66.153.113.238) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 09:13 am:

Soul Sister: You are much loved and respected on this forum by lil ole me from Phil-lie. May He keep you in His care.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 10:00 am:

Nosey;
Thanks for the very nice comment. You've always been one of my favorite posters too, as well as many others who bring interest, your knowledge, good taste, and sometimes funny stories, as we all need to laugh now and then. Most posters are the best of anywhere on this little ole internet whether we agree or not.
I need to run out to the hospital now for a test, everyday this week, ugh...but its a must so might as well get it out of the way.
Have a great day Nosey! I hope Philly has better weather than we have.
Always,
S.S.

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