By oli67 (24.97.253.99) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:33 pm:

Hi SDF
this topic is not related to music but to those in the forum whom care bout the human race
i know that we got at least one member from spain here in the forum, i forgot his/her name but i'd like to send out my deepest condelences to the one's who lost there beloved once,
may this world become a peaceful place for all our children, the victims were mostly young people...let's work altogther to dispose of once and for all this madness some people call religion or there believe..i can't believe this please excuse my written mistakes
Oliver

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:37 pm:

Our popular forum member Manny is in Spain. We hope you are OK Manny. We're thinking of you and your countrymen.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:42 pm:

((Manny))

By ~medusa~ (68.79.121.133) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:53 pm:

I hate hearing bad new about anyone...
don't know what happened, can U fill us in Oli67?

By Linda Di. (66.67.198.188) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:57 pm:

Manny -- I'm hugging you from Rochester, NY.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:58 pm:

Medusa, several terrorist bombs exploded on trains etc. The loss of life is rather heavy. Terrilble thng.

By manny (80.58.52.235) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:12 pm:

Hello, dear soulful friends!

Hey, Ralph, Oli, Sis Detroit and all!

I'm well. Many thanks for these very good true feelings. I lives around 500 km from Madrid, the place of this tragedy (my town is near to Barcelona). As i have says in the "Your finest Philly Moments" thread, today is a very sad day in the whole Spain country. In the eighties, when i studed in Barcelona haved another terrific terrorist act (in the Hypercor commercial gallerys, where died more than 20 persons)... We all are potentially victims of this kind of fool, the nationalism. If the only nation was the Planet Earth, we are more friendly.
Today is really a sad and stranger day. I'm working all night because at the 9:00 i should end a graphic work (a book!) wich i should to give in CD at the editorial and i can't stop of thinkin' in this horrible act. I connect with SD for talk with you and also for "disconnecting"...

In the last post i have send to SD i talks with irony about the legacy i can led (my vynils?). I only hope that my sons are PERSONS and as persons with dignity, what world we led to him? We should to legate a world to our sons where they don't feel ashamed for living in (because social unjustice, war, materialism, nationalism and other irrationalities).

Thanks again, for your emotive words, friends! Music, the love for the music and the true friendship in SDF is something really good and worth for "legate to our sons" (if were possible)!

Peace & Soul Food!

By oli67 (24.97.253.99) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:29 pm:

Medusa
i don't like to bring this bad news but like MANNY said it's a sad day for us europeans who believe in one nation as far as i know right now 200 young people died from 4 train bombings close to madrid i'm in the united states right now and heard it in a meeting today i'll go back to europe tommorrow and check with my friends from spain but it's all in the news...they say it could be related to el quaida
manny i wish you strength

By Nosey (152.163.253.70) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:30 pm:

((Manny)) will remember you and your countrymen tonight in prayer.

By manny (80.58.52.235) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:44 pm:

Hey, friends!

You're also hugging from Spain, Linda Di, SisDetroit, Oli, Ralph, and the whole SDF family.

Hi, Oli,
By now all the hypothesis are possibles about the authors of this atrocity. But the most probably is the terrorist band ETA from the Euzkadi radical nationalists (they want the independence of the "País Vasco". Tomorrow and saturday are two national condolence days, my sons, for example, not comes at the school. Sunday is the day of general elections. Very sad and very critical moments...

Peace and many thanks again, friends!

By DyvaNaye (152.163.253.70) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:01 pm:

Manny,

May the Lord Bless and Keep you and yours in this time of turmoil....you are in my prayers as I write and think.

GOD bless!
DyvaNaye

By oli67 (24.97.253.99) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:03 pm:

MANNY i stay with you guys and i know bout the ETA its going on for long and i hope that one day this mess will end and we'll join the world as one europe with no borders
respect Oli

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 01:27 am:

Manny;
So sorry to hear of this tragic news. I hope everyone in your family is okay. Such a sad thing to have happen, so hard to hear. As you know Manny, Jimmy & I were to be heading to Madrid next week but cancelled the last minute do to pressing doctor's appointments. So this is doubley shocking news. Our bassist's girlfriend is living in Spain, I haven't talked with him yet since we just arrived home from DC this evening, we last saw him at the "gig" last night. I hope his girlfriend is alright.
You take care & know you are in our prayers.
S.S.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 04:43 am:

Spain has been the source of many great holidays for me.

Spaniards are a very proud people and will get over this.

We need to feel for the many thousands who are affected right now.

Glad you are ok Manny.

By Richard Felstead (195.92.198.75) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 05:48 am:

I can only echo everybody's thoughts and wishes at his time.
I did not hear of the news until quite late last night.
I'm also relieved to know you're ok Manny.

The BBC said last night, that the Spanish government were now, not ruling out the possible involvment of another organisation, as it had all the specialist hallmarks of one of their attacks.
My thoughts are with all the families right now, and I just pray that the governments suspicions
are wrong.

Not one newsreader last night mentioned the date.

As of this moment, the elections are to still proceed, but with very heavy hearts.

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.110.49) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:33 am:

Manny,Lo siento para usted y para Espana.Hay mal personas en el mundo con no corazones.
Lynn

By CORNBREAD (66.185.84.74) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:43 am:

Reminds me of John Gary Williams song "The whole damn world is going crazy".

My condolences to the people of Spain.

By Robb_K (204.108.96.12) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:13 pm:

Hola Manny. Lo Siento por La Gente de La Espagna (no tengo tilda). Espero que todos viene mejor en la futura.

By Eli (68.236.53.71) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:14 pm:

Manny,
Vaya Con Dios MiAmogo!!

By stephanie (69.138.239.31) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:32 pm:

manny Im sorry to hear this you and the whole community I pray will be safe. I wish that we could all just get along,
Stephanie

By Common (209.2.55.170) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:40 pm:

Manny: Glad to know you are safe & prayers & thoughts go out to those who lost love ones in this tragedy.

Peace!

By Eli (68.236.53.71) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:44 pm:

Manny, that should have been "amigo"!
Sorry for the typo.
This keyboard is a relic excavated from Cheops tomb!

By Wonder B (81.51.160.237) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:44 pm:

Yes and the latest reports give now a heavier toll with over 200 killed and over 1400 injured (many severely)...

I have a part of my family in Sevilla and some in Madrid too... we haven't been able to contact every one of them yet so I hope they are all safe, but I am joining myself to the others before me on this forum in prayers for people of Spain... ETA (basque or Al Quaida, it doesn't matter... terrorists are heartless criminals and should be treated accordingly...
I think there's a good chance that these attacks may have been done by the basques separatists... we are lucky that the french basques never went the same path as the Spanish ones...

Wonder B

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 01:12 pm:

Manny:
Mi amigo, I'm glad to hear that you are all right. May the music you love so much bring you and the people of Spain comfort in this time of great loss. You have my support always.

Respectfully and with regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Tony Russi (68.18.227.53) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 01:26 pm:

My 15 yr old neice is on a school trip to France & Spain & is suppose to arrive in Madrid today.My brothers nerves are a wreck not to mention the rest of us being anxious. The American Embassy in Madrid was very nice & helpful & reasurring when my brother called them yesterday.It was a trip of a lifetime thats why my brother let her go.I just hope the Spanish authorities catch these devils...we've all got to be strong to win World War III.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 02:26 pm:

I'm watching amazing images from Madrid as tens of thousands converge on the city centre.

Like all folks under attack they pull together.

Right will always defeat wrong.

By manny (80.58.52.235) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 02:58 pm:

Hello again, mi apreciada gran familia!

First of all, thanks again for all these very emotive and true words that demostrated very good feelings by very good people. Who loves soul music, loves life, friendship and peace!

I wanna says that my toughts are with all of you who have friends and / or family in Spain and don't knows about they. Hope everybody is well, dear Ms. Scott, Tony Russi and Wonder B and very soon you have good news. If i can help, for example, calling by the phone at the Interior Ministery for asking about somebody only need that you says.

This nice words and condolences by all of you i likes to transmite to the very victims and familys, if i have the chance to send a print copy of this thread to the familys (i think Ralph don't have inconvenient). I think, appart from the tragedy without solution, it's good to know in the other side of the Atlantic have very true hearts who are with him. This contributed in the concept, as sings The O'Jays, that «We Are All In This Thing Together», in the same ship and the same planet. Yesterday was Madrid, two years before, NY, many days Palestine,... terrorism, ujnust wars, social unjustice, capitalism expoliator,... The victims are allways and sadly the humble and good people... And finally those things made a retroalimentation as the justification of the armament industry, militarized society and the danger of totallitary governements ("democratically chooseds"!!) with the pretext that the terrorist have made. Democracy should to keep his serenity in these critical moments.

Thanks again to all SDF, amigos!
Peace & Soul Food!

By Heikki (81.17.193.223) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 04:21 pm:

Manny,
my dear friend,

having being to Spain many times this is just terrible.

Heikki

By CHANCELLOR OF SOUL (66.207.40.18) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 05:23 pm:

Hey Manny,
This is such sad sad news. Hearing this morning
just broke my heart. You and your country will
be in my prayers, buddy. Take care and God speed.

Peace,
Mike Boone
(Chancellor of Soul)

By Juicefree20 (151.205.108.144) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 06:42 pm:

Manny,

I hope that you & your loved ones will be safe & that this type of thing never happens again. May God bless & comfort your fellow countrymen. You will all be in our prayers, as will the world. We argue back & forth about music, etc. Manny, your postings truly puts things into perspective. I'm sorry, & I hope that there will no more more pain, tears or bloodshed.

Juicefree20

By GoGoGirl (63.159.89.43) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 07:09 pm:

Hey All,

Hey Manny. Words truly can't express how disheartening I felt and how sad I was to hear of the bombing in your beloved Spain. I am glad you are alright physically, and I hope you are on the mend spiritually and emotionally, indeed.

Take care, my friend.

By manny (80.58.52.235) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 07:40 pm:

Hello again, soulful brothers and sisters!
Hey. Ms. Scott, Wonder B and Tony Russi, hope your notices of your friends and familiars in Spain are good!
The last policial investigations, without left other hypothesis, indicates the thumb of Al Quaeda. (In fact, ETA made allways a reivindiction after a terrorist act, and this time don't have reivindicated it). This made the situation more complex and create more social alarm. Despite the fact that obviously NOBODY deserves are killed, ETA makes, usually, terrorist acts more "selected" but the international terrorism its more "undiscriminated".

Again, thanks for the comfortable and nice words by Kev-Go, Nosey, DyvaNaye, Bobby, Common, Lynn Bruce, Juicefree, Heikiki, Richard, Chancellor Of Soul, Stephanie, Medusa, Robb K, Cornbread, David Meikle, Ralph, Ms. Scott, SisDetroit, Linda Di, Oli... I'm not a victim or familiar of a victim, but i feel the hurt and also the danger of the civilized convivence in my country (here was 40 years of dictator government and fascism!). Your true condolences are for the humanity in danger.

Definitively, if Philly is phisically «the City Of Brotherly Love», Soulful Detroit is the virtual Planet of Brotherly love.

Peace and Soul Food.

By ~medusa~ (68.249.245.120) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 08:02 pm:

I saw it on the news....it brought 911 back to mind...that's so terrible.
As often as they say they go up into space, If they should find any other beings, they will probably conquer and take over Planet Earth~
Why???
Because a lot of us on this planet are so hateful to one another, for so many ignorant, stupid, foolish and greedy reasons, we don't stick together...and a HOUSE divided CANNOT Stand...Sorry to say, this house (Earth) is so divided by HATE, (the other 4 letter word).

By manny (80.58.52.235) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 08:12 pm:

Totally agree with you, Medusa,

If you see the Earth from the sideral space (or a pick of the planet), THE PLANET IS UNIT!

Is the humanity that's are break up! It's simple and also sad.

Peace!

By Richard Felstead (195.92.168.173) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 08:19 pm:

The images on the TV tonight are incredible, they estimate about 8 million people took to the streets, in most cities accross Spain.

Now 199 dead including a 6 month old baby girl, and about 1,400 injured, many serious.

If this is ETA then they have stepped up their ajenda, normally they target politicians, etc, not civilians.

The spanish government said yesterday that they believed ETA to be responsible, however today they have retracted that statement and said it could possibly be the work of Al Quaeda, as the detonators are not what are usually used by ETA.
There were also islamic tapes that were found in a van, close to one of the train stations.

Focus of the investigation is now on an unexploded rucksack containing the explosives and detonators,found on one of the trains, which were triggered my mobile phone.

Without being disrespectful to Wonder B who said in an earlier posting "ETA or Al Quaeda, it doesn't matter".

I didn't take it the wrong way, I knew what you were trying to say, but if it's ETA, then the terrorists are localised.That in no way diminishes the terrible attrocities they have commited.

If it's Al Quaeda.................then the implications of this are massive.

Just a couple of things which could hint at the fact it's the latter.

The date was the 11th, and someone on a web-site said today that this took place nine hundred and eleven days after 9/11.

Let's be careful out there people.

By Wonder B (81.53.149.230) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 04:54 am:

Richard, I know you know what I meant when I said "ETA or Al Quaeda, it doesn't matter".

I just meant that terrorism should be wiped off the surface of this planet (utopia)

Sure if it is ETA they'll be easier to fight, if it's the other it usre is on a worldwide level...

Manny thnaks for your concern, I was finally able to get the Spanish part of my family on the phone and they're all OK... thanks again

Wonder B

By bigdaddyg2k4 (206.157.27.242) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 05:01 pm:

Hi Manny!

It is good to hear that this latest tragedy didn't claim your life and the lives of those you know and love. But unfortunately it did for other people; when the people responsible (ETA, Al Queda or whoever) for this latest tragedy and 9/11 (including Saddam Hussein) are caught and bought to justice, put them in the most remote, isolated, darkest prison that has ever been built and concieved by man. Executing them is too easy; time, complete isolation and darkness will drive the most disciplined human being to insanity. It brings fear and a virtual uncertainty to their pathetic lives. I call it "Hell On Earth", the very last place and time in their lives that they will ever spend on Earth, period. I've been to Spain on a few occasions when I was in the Navy years ago before 9/11. I've been to Rota, Malaga and Palma de Mallorca (which I have a friend living there), and Lisbon, Portugal; it is very beautiful over there and I hope to return sometime in the near future. I've also been to Italy, Izmir, Turkey; Greece, Israel, the Suez Canal and Bahrain. These are hotbeds of suspected terrorist activity and it's a shame that the world has come to the point where it's not safe to travel anywhere. The tragedy and devestation in Madrid rings tones of 9/11 and I'm afraid that something worse is going to happen before 2004 is out. I keep having visions of terrorists coming back over here (or citizens already living here) planting bombs in the nation's busiest subways, train stations, bus stations, schools or even worse, a car filled with flammable, radioactive or biological weapons parked in the middle of rush-hour traffic in Los Angeles or other cities across America and the world ready to explode and take untold numbers of lives. But yet I still hope and pray that it will never come to that, but I guess sometimes you can't help but to think that in this day and time, all of that could be possible and a reality. For all of our sakes, I hope it never will.

By Tony Russi (216.78.186.157) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 05:51 pm:

My neice called me collect Friday night from Seville, Spain...she is fine and having a wonderful time. She says how friendly the people are.She leaves Madrid today for Paris. Thanks Manny for your thoughts. I have always wanted to go to Spain, when I was 15 I had never been out of Fla.except to Montgomery, Al. so my neice is a lucky girl, ofcourse I never made staright A' s in school either.

By Shauntrell (68.43.4.16) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:11 pm:

The War in Iraq has claimed its first political casualty. Aznar is ousted as Spain's leader; let's hope the people here in America has the guts to do the same thing to its Thief-in-Chief, King George II!

Peace & blessings to you and your countrymen, Manny....

By BankHouseDave (195.93.34.12) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:16 pm:

Manny:

Sue and I are preparing to come to Spain next month for a book and travel research trip. We love Spain and are looking forward to it so much. The Umayyad culture of 1000 years ago was the society that brought the basis of our modern culture from cities like Cordoba, Sevilla and Granada. This Islamic culture also brought the instruments we use in modern music, the concept of universities and the very notions of tolerance we all hold so dear.

If Al Qaeda are responsible for these hideous and unjustifiable atrocities, they are attacking anything that was good in their own culture; they are a pathetic degraded parody who bring shame on that culture.

Our love and thoughts go to you and to the people who have become indiscriminate victims of cowards.

By Phil (212.129.41.218) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:22 pm:

Great words, Shauntrell, don't forget to vote !
PS : this is for all of you, US Detroiters, Spain has paved the way to ...wisdom ?

By manny (80.58.52.235) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 08:12 pm:

Hello again, dear friends!

Hello, Wonder B. I'm glad for your good news. Hope all the other SFDers with friends or family in Spain have also good news.

Hey, Ms. Scott, know you if the girlfriend of your backing bassist it's also OK?

Hello, Bigdaddy,
I share with you this same hope, friend. A lesson learned by this last big tragedy is simply that we're all in the same ship. I post yesterday in another thread where tolds that the day of Spain's general elections was in serenity and participated practically all the electorate. I'm socialist and have gained the socialists, the new president is Señor Zapatero. This is a reason for some joy with serenity (the consternation for the terrorist act is, evidently, great). Have many people in Spain and in the world who believe in a real change... In a world with more social justice and the economy at the service of the persons, in one alternative to this wild and depredator capitalism that destroys the persons and the planet... In a world whitout war, with institutions as the U.N. that really have a function for the paciffic solution of problems... In a world where I, you or our sons don't feel ashamed for living in... This is utopic and not factible in a few of years... But it's necessary to start. The world can't be perfect but by now have many things that should be better.

This next summer i have the intention to come in Mallorca to descend the most beatiful Canyon of Europe: Sa Fosca ("The Obscure"). A river canyon very long and similar to a cave that flows to the famous "Torrent de Pareis", next to the famous beach of the same name.

Best Regards to All
Peace & Soul Food!

By Edgar (200.46.13.207) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 08:41 pm:

Manny, I also sympathize with the victims, with all terrorist victims.
When I heard the morning news, I instantly thought of a connection between what had happened and Aznar's involvement in the invasion of Iraq. I know about the Basque terrorits activity, but I think this particular action is different due to its moral dimension... Due to the quantity of murdered persons, massively, without discrimination, I think this action can only come from a foreign force, strange to the Spanish reality, a force that has no emotional tie to Spain. Like September 11 in New York. Local terrorist acts, done by locals, have another face, I believe, and some are very weird, like the killing of 73 young Cuban sportsmen on a plane, in 1976 by the Miami Cuban maffia.
In any case, I do not believe that the way to end the world's situation is war. It will only make it worse. It happened in Panama in 1989. We were invaded by US troops, supposedly to catch Noriega and bring democracy to Panama, but now there are more drugs in the streets than before, more violence, more corruption...
As I have said before, all this will end when we investigate the cause of so much evil, because behind every effect there is a cause, and behind this terrible action in Madrid there must be similarly terrible causes. You have mention a few: social injustice, greed, power struggle, capitalism in its most agressive and murderous phase, etc. etc. I don't believe that isolating a few will end it, because the impulse to commit such acts will reappear in extremists whenever a situation becomes unbalanced. As long as there is a human race, there will be terrorist thoughts. The key, perhaps, is to try to erradicate all the world social, economic and political diseases that trigger those actions. After September 11, unfortunately few people have been strong enough to overcome the tragedy and begun to reflect on the reasons why it happened. Let us pray that God's light will fall upon us all, so we can all start to see the real and wise solutions for a better future.

By Robb_K (66.81.19.70) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:27 pm:

What you said makes much sense, Edgar. If only the World's leaders and powerful billionaires would realise that is the proper, constructive attitude.

By Soul Sister (65.43.144.46) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:37 pm:

Manny mi amigo;
Hope things are getting better for everyone in Spain.
Yes, the girlfriend is fine, thanks for your concern, that was sweet.
Take of yourself & your family.
Always,
S.S.

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 03:29 pm:

EVEN THOUGH WE COME TO THIS WONDERFUL FORUM TO HAVE FUN TALKING MUSIC,ALL IT TAKES IS ONE TRAGEDY SUCH AS THE ONE IN SPAIN TO REMIND US ALL OF JUST HOW FRAGILE LIFE IS AND HOW WE CAN BE GONE IN AN INSTANT,BECAUSE OF SOMEONE'S SICK POLITICS INNOCENT LIVES ARE TAKEN,MY PRAYERS GO OUT TO ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS,MANNY I HOPE THAT YOU SUFFERED NO LOSSES IN THIS SENSELESS TRAGEDY.

By bigdaddyg2k4 (205.138.55.38) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 05:30 pm:

Of all of the world's riches (especially our country the US), it is a shame that we use our resources for power, greed and world domination in a quest to change peoples lives and the destiny of the world we live in. Many countries have long complained about the United States' influence on world governments and lives of ordinary citizens. Maybe the events of 9/11 were a long-overdue retaliation on those influences of our government on other countries. The federal government thinks with great pride as viewing themselves as authoritive figures behind the world's largest military, law-enforcement and financial forces the world has ever known, and that my friends, sets a very dangerous and destructive path that leads to the events that we experience today and for years to come. Who's to say that we know better than anyone else? And that by us having possession of some of the things that the rest of the world should not have?(such as nuclear weapons and the freedom to venture into other parts of the world without respect or regard of other authority figures and citizens who supposed to have rights and priviledges) If we look back on history, we can see beyond all of the red tape, cover-ups and facades that our government has put up since this country was founded as still do to this day, we don't practice what we preach as far as democracy, civil rights, human rights and decency are concerned. I believe why the reason 9/11 happened was because of the overwhelming influence that our government has on the world in a negative light; the way we invaded on other countries, the mistreatment of people and the shady dealings that has been kept under cover has come back to haunt us in a violent way. Didn't we have a peaceful world a long time ago? Think back to the days before the latter part of the 19th century when we got along with the world better and vice versa when countries got along with each other? Sure there were wars still happening, but not as intense as we are facing now. This has gotten very serious, folks and the stakes has just gotten higher with each passing day. I just hope and pray that we don't destroy ourselves into oblivion before we have a chance to really change the world for the better.

By Robb_K (204.108.65.10) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 05:45 pm:

Right on the mark, Big Daddy! Nice to see that some US citizens can be objective about their own nation's behavior.

By manny (80.58.52.235) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 03:00 pm:

Hi again, dear friends!

Hello Edgar, R&B, and Soul Sister. Thanks for your nice words. I'm glad for your good news, SS.

I appreciate your words and the good faith you says this, Shauntrell and Phil but i'm socialist and I think the US needs a new Jimmy Carter who was a honest and respectful president.

Hi, Bankhouse Dave,
I have read your post today, because the other day i opened the trhead for response to Bigdaddy and left open during hours before send the message (i believe come to see the TV news). Nice words, friend. Of course arabian culture it's capital in arts, hidraulic engineery, algebra, simply the arabian numbers we all use everyday,.. BTW, about the arguments by Al Qaeda or by other criminals, i thinks is not necessary to search logical in these arguments by the terrorism. They can says the arguments that they want, but not exist. IMHO a very mistake by many politicians are to distinguise betwen "crime" (ordinary) and "political crime" and political convict (with crimes of blood) and ordinary convict (this happen allways with ETA in Spain). A terrorist is a criminal and making this distinction we all in some way «accept» their arguments (is that they want!).
Also i'm again agree with both of you, Bigdaddy and Robb K. The US nation is very great for many things as many people are critic with their nation and his government as Noam Chomsky or more recently Michael Moore... Everywhere have honest people and some day can be possible the peace and the justice and a hypothetic international tribunal where are presents as accuseds ETA, Al Quaeda, Sharon, the OLP, some multinationals who create missery and exploted childrens, the Mas Canosa's collaborators, some ideological descendents of spanish fascism as Aznar, Bush (for response at minimum some questions),... and ALL the responsibles of the suffering of millions of persons.

Peace Now !!! (and also, as allways, Soul Food)