By Spookey (198.81.26.103) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:56 pm:

BERRY GORDY IS NOT A CROOK. HE'S A BUSINESS MAN THAT TOOK CHANCES ON UNKNOWNS LIKE MARY WELLS, BARRETT STRONG, THE MARVELETTES, AND YOU KNOW THE REST.

YOUNG MAN, IT TAKES MONEY TO MAKE MONEY AND WITHOUT MONEY, YOU HAVE NOTHING.

IF NOT FOR ALL THE HITS THAT DIANA ROSS AND THE SUPREMES HAD, WHERE DO YOU THINK MOTOWN WOULD HAVE GOTTEN MONEY TO PRODUCE BRENDA HOLLOWAY, THE ELGINS, AND SO ON!!

By Tony Russi (216.78.187.148) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:59 pm:

I don't think Mr. Gordy was a crook. Motown royalty payment wise, operated no differently then most record companies of the day. Now there might have been some shady characters that came into Motown at some point but I don't think The Gordys' were anything but decent, hardworking people.

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 05:12 pm:

THE TERM[CROOK]IS A BIT MUCH,BERRY WAS A BUSINESS MAN TOUGH YES,PLAYED FAVORITES TO SOME EXTENT YES,TAUGHT ALOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE ABOUT SHOW BUSINESS WHERE MANY WOULD NOT HAVE HAD A CHANCE,YES,IN ANY BIG BUSINESS THERE ARE GONNA BE[FAVORED]EMPLOYEES AND SOME WHO FALL OUT OF FAVOR,IS IT FAIR?NO,BUT THAT'S THE BUSINESS WORLD AND MUSIC IS CUTTHROAT,NO BERRY WAS NO CROOK,JUST A TOUGH BUSINESSMAN IN A TOUGH BUSINESS!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 05:13 pm:

We have been down this road a hundred ******* times.

There's nothing worse than people hiding behind aliases and throwing dirt.

It's cowardice of the highest order.

By The Chosen One (205.188.209.141) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 05:24 pm:

I don't think Mr. Gordy was a crook at all. I think he made very wise business decisons that made the label sucessful. If it wasn't for the Gordy family and all the people who made the magic at Motown, I don't think they would of survived. I think he was fair and he knew what he was doing. Personally, I think he was a musical genuis

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 05:52 pm:

Berry Gordy wasn't any more of a "crook" than any other label head. I've got an idea on who started this ridiculous topic but I won't say any names. I'm spooked!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 05:56 pm:

Sorry if it looks like Spookey.

I've deleted their postings, and will continue to do so.

By Juicefree20 (141.149.49.153) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 06:07 pm:

I don't agree with his practices. As a Black man & the family type atmosphere that he espoused, I can understand why so many of his artists may have expected more of him. I'm sure that they expected him to be different from all of the other label heads. For Motown to act as the artists agents, lawyers, etc., was somewhat unfair. Was he a crook? No, he did what everyone else was doing. Was it correct, fair or ethical, that's debatable. However, he was the main game & opportunity in town. I believe that he took more care than most label heads to prepare their acts for classy venues. In fairness, I'm sure that if more of the acts had paid more attention to the business part of show business, they might have fared better. I feel that his contracts were one sided & unfair. I also question the practice of including the same song on various artists LPs. You may say that he took all of the risks on unknown quantities & that's true. However, once they proved themselves, he could have been a bit more generous. I feel that he should have been fairer but, he went along with what the market would bear. He was no crook.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 06:55 pm:

Berry Gordy was a human being, with the faults and foibles of all of us humans. He did the best he could in an extremely brutal business. I am proud to have worked for the man and also privelaged to have known the Gordy family. You won't find a nicer, more dedicated famly anywhere, trust me. God bless you Berry. You did good.

By Robb_K (66.81.197.226) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 08:22 pm:

Regardless of what he did as the owner and president of Motown, it was definately more "fair" to his employees, than the treatment artists, writers and producers got from just about all the big companies, and probably most of the small labels. It seemed to me that the Gordys cared more for the personal welfare of their artists than the owners of most of the other companies. One might think he took advantage of them to some extent, but that shouldn't be considered in a vacuum. His firm put out a lot of money to come up with music, record, train and promote their artists, take them on tour, etc., etc., etc.

By KevinM (64.12.96.238) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 08:40 pm:

I agree with you, Spookey. Berry Gordy was just a man who had a dream. ALl he was doing was trying to make a living and having some fun at the same time. He just wanted to give other people (GROUPS) opportunities so that they could expand in life. Some of them went through and some didn't. That was his dream, and hge fulfilled it.

By LadyMystique (216.37.229.3) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 08:53 pm:

Hey what's up with this...

I look up to Berry Gordy as one of my heroes...he has established not only a label but a legacy as IMHO he has done what only others DREAM about.

Props to BG...all the way!

By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:09 pm:

I have tremendous respect for Mr. Gordy....

truly.....his musical endeavors enrich my life greatly

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:29 pm:

Props to you Juice for saying what you really feel! Some people just refuse to believe ANYTHING negative about their idols. Others are just scared to speak up, especially on a site called SoulfulDetroit.com where people worship almost anything Motown/Berry Gordy. I found that out when I started a topic about Motown and the late Mary Wells. We were discussing business practices that may have been used to harm Mary's career. No matter how many times we tried to tell people that we weren't attacking BG personally they refused to believe it! Some folks prefer to live in a Fool's Paradise.

I think that the MUSIC BIZ AS A WHOLE is just shady period! Every music bio or book I read always tells of artists that were cheated by their record label, manager, etc.. Motown is no exception. Think about it. When was the last time you heard a recording artist from the 1960's (besides Smokey Robinson) say that they got all of their money that they had coming to them? I rarely hear it!

But I just don't get this. How can Berry Gordy be a "crook" when he was doing the same thing that every other label head was doing? Wouldn't that make the whole music biz crooked?

By LadyMystique (216.37.229.3) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:46 pm:

Rodmann-your theory doesn't not pertain to me as I can take the bitter with the sweet. The music is more important to me than the politics of it.

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:51 pm:

Hey Lady. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you or anyone else personally. Please believe me when I say that I wasn't. It's just that some people refuse to believe anything bad about public figures that they really love. You know how it is. I even have some artists in the music biz that no one can tell me sh*t about! I love their music and what they've done just that much. LOL. I'm sorry if my words sounded like an attack. I didn't mean them that way.

By DavidS91 (198.81.26.103) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:52 pm:

I don't think Berry Gordy was a crook at all. I think he had some oppressive contracts that gave him the bulk of the money, but he also took the bulk of the risk. Truthfully, his business practices hurt him as much, if not more than it helped him. Because while in the short term he made more $$, he wound up losing some of his best talent, including Mary Wells and Holland-Dozier-Holland, because he wasn't willing to share the wealth a little more.

I always felt that Berry Gordy treated Smokey Robinson like family (he probably considered him his protege), and as a result Smokey stayed with Berry and Motown and turned out hits well into the 1980's.

Unfortunately, a lot of the other artists and producers left when they were offered the type of money that Berry never gave them (even though without Berry, they most likely would never have been in a position to command this money) and it left Berry and Motown the poorer for it.

I have long wondered why successful entrepreneurs are not more willing to "share the wealth" when someone contributes a disproportionate amount toward the success of their efforts. Ultimately, though, not sharing more of the money hurts both parties because it causes the talent who's not compensated proportionally for their efforts to leave, and as a result, causes the person holding onto the $$, less likely to continue making as much of it!

By LadyMystique (216.37.229.3) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:57 pm:

OK Rodmann...you are forgiven!

David-according to Berry's and Smokey's autobios, they are TIGHT! And Smokey credits Berry for teaching him how to write songs that "told a story" and giving him so many opportunities in the company, i.e. making him VP of Motown, a position Smokey has held until somewhere in the 1980s.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:13 pm:

If memory serves me correctly, it was Smokey who talked Bery into releasing Motown records as a national label effort rather than makeing lease deals with other labels. And to help finance the endeavor Smokey differed any of his royalties to help finance the cause. Good soldier huh?

By Eli (68.236.24.249) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:18 pm:

If it wereent for Berry Gordy, there would be no Soulful Detroit and there would be no great legacy of artists and songs that defined an era and beacame a synonym for sixties music itself.

Can you imagine a world without the Tempts, Four Tops, Miracles, Supremes,Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder,wat a vacuous existance thhere would be without the Motown musical legacy.

So I salute Mr. Gordy for the visionary that he was and for his perserverance to overcome all obstacles and create the greatest little company that could.

By DavidS91 (198.81.26.103) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:20 pm:

You're absolutely right, Eli. It's hard to conceive of a musical world without Motown... so much of the 1960's, 70's and even '80's soul music was built on the foundation of Motown. Without it, there's be a musical black hole that's hard to imagine.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 05:17 am:

Rodmann

I am not blinded by anything about anyone.

The only people who need to feel uncomfortable on this web site are those who sleight others.

You and 99.5% of this forum know absolutely nothing about Berry Gordy yet YOU would allow his name to be dragged through the gutter.

If you want to do that to people do it on YOUR own website, not ours.

Thanks to everyone else for using common sense when discussing the man who gave joy to millions around the world.

FACT!

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 05:37 am:

David Meikle,

When did I "sleight" Berry Gordy or "allow his name to be dragged through the mud"? If you would have read my posts you would have seen that I disagree with this whole topic. I only said that Berry Gordy was no more of a crook than anyone else because every record label has been accused of shady business practices at one point or another . My point was that if BG was a crook then the whole music biz was crooked! I also pointed out that I was falsely accused of attacking Mr. Gordy on another topic when I was merely trying to get some facts about Mary Wells' Post-Motown career. Even if BG was some sort of "crook" what good would it do to badmouth him on a site where everyone loves him? I didn't start this topic and I don't agree with it so PLEASE DON'T USE ME AS YOUR SCAPEGOAT!

By JoB (63.168.103.2) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:35 am:

...to a certain extent, I agree with just about everyone who has posted so far. Yes, he had the vision, made it happen, opened the door for many, gave us what the world recognizes as Soulful Detroit (and I'm not just talking about this website), and for that I'll always be greatful to the man (and yes, he's also one of MY heroes).

Yet another part of me still wonders where he was/is at, when sooo many of the people who helped him to acheive this dream were/are...well, you know what I'm getting at. And yes, I know that he is not responsible for everyone or what they do with/to their lives, but it just seems like he could have done so much more. He is one of the few legends of Motown who could just sit back and retire when he did and never have to lift a finger again, and not have to worry about his financial future. Or if anyone is going to remember his name 40 years from now.

We could hold debates about the matter until the sun comes up, but those thoughts just won't sit right with me. Oh well, I doubt he's losing any sleep over it anyway :o)

Either way, BG is someone whose hand I wouldn't mind shaking someday.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:36 am:

Rodmann

I have re-read your post.

It is an attack on the good folks of this forum IMO.

David

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:37 am:

This is exactly what I was talking about when I spoke of a Fool's Paradise. Just because I dared to take a slightly different view of this whole thing and admit that BERRY GORDY IS NOT A GOD but a human being who's no better or worse than the rest of us I'm accused of "slighting" him! Berry Gordy is human so I'm sure that he has done some things that could be classified as shady, just as the rest of us have. My stand was that if he did do some things that were shady or crooked he was in the majority because almost every Soul music book or bio I read has an artist who's accusing their record label of cheating them out of funds. Motown acts AND non-Motown acts. I'm not making this stuff up folks.

David Meikle you are wrong for falsely accusing me of "slighting" Berry Gordy and "allowing his name to be dragged through the dirt". I DID NOTHING OF THE SORT NOR HAVE I EVER ON THIS FORUM! If you would have taken the time to read what I had to say before you attacked and blamed me for this whole thing you would have seen that I am against this topic. And I didn't appreciate the comment about me "and 99.5% of this forum know absolutely nothing about Berry Gordy". You don't know me so you don't know what the hell I know!

I hope that you will read over what I posted earlier and see that you were wrong.

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:41 am:

That's the point I was making JoB. Just because I said that BG was only human and that people refuse to admit that he was only a man I'm accused of attacking the "good folks" on this forum!

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:43 am:

Rodmann

You're off and running again.

If I thought I was in a fool's paradise, I wouldn't hang around.

David

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:46 am:

No I'm not in a Fool's Paradise and that's why you attacked me. Just because I refuse to think that no one man is better than the rest of us!

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 06:54 am:

Can I end this by saying that I am sick of Berry Gordy being questioned on this forum.

It comes up every couple of weeks despite him being defended by a number of people who worked with him.

This website is a TRIBUTE to people and as such is lilywhite in its intentions. I therefore accept responsibility for only wanting to present part of the story and in my "weird world" that suits me fine.

Go read the tabloids if you want garbage.

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:02 am:

And I agree so that's why I've never attacked Berry Gordy on this forum. You were just defending him against the wrong person because I never said anything negative about him!

You tell me that I attacked BG and "good folks" on this forum when I'm telling you that I haven't and that's it? And then you basically tell me that you don't give a damn if I "stick around" aka post here again or not. Is this how you treat people that come here?

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:08 am:

It's how I treat people whose words and actions I don't like.

Remember your little diatribe with Julian?

You quite correctly apologised to Lady on this thread. Thanks at least for that.

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:15 am:

Yes I do remember Julian and I've been very respectful of EVERYONE on this forum every since although they haven't always been respectful towards me. I've always kept my topics and posts strictly to music! And donated funds to this your site! All of this so I could get lied on and then told to fu*k off when I defend myself in a respectful manner.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:21 am:

E-mail me at david@soulfuldetroit.com and I will gladly refund your donation.

David Meikle

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:24 am:

Thanks a lot David! I'll gladly email you. I get my refund and you'll never have to worry about my black ass posting on your Berry Gordy Shrine again!

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:30 am:

I think your last post says it all Rodmann.

Over and out.

David

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:38 am:

It's in your box Dave.

By Patric (80.79.97.7) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 08:13 am:

Heeeey Guys !!!

STOP... in the name of love.

I don't believe what I'm reading. This has nothin' to do with SOUL anymore.

Listen to each other and read closely what the other one is exactly tryin' to say.

Soulfull greetings,
Patric.

... and keep that Soul Alive !!!

By Music Business Ethics Corrector (216.139.153.109) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 10:51 am:

Like Rodney King (remember him?) once said, "Can't We All Just Get Along?" David, you're in denial, you know good and d.a.m.n well Berry was a sheister so stop trying to defend his "fairy tale" image. I personally know a lot of former Motown artists that once told me if they ever see Berry on the street, they would, how should put it, PUT HIM OUT OF HIS MISERY !!! So on that note, I leave you with sadness..... Why sadness you ask Davey? Because defending a cat like Berry is sad. It's OK Dave, one day you'll get it. Until then, TRY to keep your head up...... Not up Berry's a.s.s, but your pride.

HAVE A NICE DAY !!!

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:02 am:

Thanks for your kind words MBEC

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:10 am:

MBEC,
Shiester? I resent you applying the term to Berry. I worked for the guy and I hung with the artists and produces who were under contract with his company. Sure, there were times when all was not rosey. This is true in ALL business. However, Berry always received the respect due him fom all of us, so I resent your implication and unless you were there also I have to assume you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

By Handsome (170.118.158.14) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:15 am:

IMO, David & Rodmann...Can we all just let this go, and move on? I enjoy the both of you as well as others on the forum.

Dave, please reconsider & Rodmann don't leave.

Thanks,

Handsome

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:30 am:

Handsome please note that Rodmann is not barred.

This also applies to everyone who has ever input to SD.

All they have to do is act responsibly.

By NYC Diva (158.57.150.226) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:48 am:

Well said, JoB!

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 11:55 am:

As I've said in the past, this is a forum and It should refect everyone's opinion. However remember at all times that we treat those we discuss with all the respect due them and Berry Gordy certainly is at the top of this list.

Spookey: Perhaps you might have chosen your words a little more carefully for the topic heading?

By Spookey (198.81.26.103) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 01:48 pm:

I don't know why ... you guys are blaming me for this topic because I didn't write it!!

Honestly, I would come out and tell you if I did. I answeered to it but you guys know how to find out; so do that Rodmann and Ralph!!

Shoot, I get to be around Berry Gordy, and take pictures with my idol. Why would I write something so stupid as that??

you guys are always pointing fingers like little women because I started SUPREME BATTLE!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 01:52 pm:

Folks:
I didn't want to comment about this because I was afraid that this thread would become heated and it has.

First of all, I agree with Ralph - the title of this post was ill-chosen and I would advise Spookey or whomever to please think before you type.

Second of all, Berry Gordy was and is a BUSINESSMAN. For example, the recording contracts he used for Motown were based on agreements used at other record labels, especially the ones he used to license/sell his masters to (United Artists, Chess). He applied a democratic system of quality control that was so critical and challenging it would make Simon of American Idol look VERY wimpy by comparison.
Berry encouraged creativity yet reminded this crew that they were in the biz to make hits and hitmakers. Those who didn't fit the bill didn't last. Gordy was no different than many other record label folks who were looking out for the bottom line. You want to read about someone being lowdown? Check out Jerry Wexler's autobiography "The Rhythm & the Blues" - he flat out admitted some of the "dirty deeds" he did to artists at Atlantic but his "crimes" were committed for a reason - he was protecting the label's image and finances.

In addition, the Motowners who have visited us on Soulful Detroit have had nothing but good things to say about Gordy and the crew. Yes, they had their disagreements but what company has not?!? Deke Richards discussed here on this very Forum how he produced a Chris Clark record for the aborted Weed label and he pulled no punches in describing how he had to defend the label's existance to Phil Jones and Barney Ales (who were behind the creation of Rare Earth Records) while Gordy sat in the background and said nothing. For him to come out and share that with us was pretty amazing if not gutsy in itself.

Finally, I've had it with those who subscribe to gossip and wanting to reveal things that maybe should be left unsaid (which is why I only address certain people out here). This is NOT the place for such dialogue. To paraphrase the great civil rights leader Andrew Young when asked about dealing with gossip and things unsaid - he gave a three-point response: is it TRUE, is it NECESSARY and is it KIND.

Soulful Detroit was created to HONOR the legacy Berry Gordy, Mike Hanks, Johnnie Mae Matthews, Roquel Billy Davis, Ed Wingate, Andrew "Papa" Harris, Ollie McLaughlin and a cast of hundreds helped create & should remain as such.

I suggest we close off this thread before it gets too hot in here (and trust me, you all wouldn't want me to take off all my clothes!!).

Respectfully submitted,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Spookey (198.81.26.103) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 01:53 pm:

David,

I see you delete the person who posted the title on Berry Gordy and some people think I did.
I think I'm Spooked, which Rodmann says, he's got an idea ... Well Rodmann, your so called idea is trying to say that SPOOKEY DID IT but you are wrong because as David said, he deleted the person who did and my name is still up!!

So how you like me now Rodmann, thanks David!!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:04 pm:

Here's the final section of an e-mail Rodmann sent to me this afternoon :-

"If you get my money back to me I won't post to your site anymore. If I'm forced to continue posting it's not going to be pretty because I've got a lot to say to some of the "good folks' at the forum!"

I think we're well rid.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:06 pm:

Spookey

It was only once I deleted the original post that I noticed you were placed at the top and looking like the instigator.

I'm sorry about that.

David

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:08 pm:

If you keep your word and you will be well rid of me.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:08 pm:

Thanks to Kevin for his totally logical outlook.

That's all we need.... common sense.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:09 pm:

That's an unfortunate message David. I'm sorry to see that. Well I guess my trigger finger will be on the delete button for a while.

By Handsome (170.118.158.14) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:12 pm:

Hi David.

Thanks, and I agree (to your reply back to me above).

Handsome

By Isaiah (152.163.253.70) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:12 pm:

David, that's not cool to go public with a private e-mail - really... That's between you and Rodman, and the rest of us don't need to know you guys personal bidness like that...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:13 pm:

Why didn't you print the whole email? I said nothing negative about Berry Gordy. You even said yourself that this was about my spat with Julian. How the hell was I "dragging BG's name through the gutter" when I defended him and disagred with him being called a "crook" for merely using common business practices? You didn't even read my posts before you attacked me. And then you deleted my first post when I spoke out against the gossipy nature of this whole topic!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:26 pm:

Here it is Rodmann

"You said that you would refund my money. I'd like my $10 back that a contributed a while ago. Certainly you don't need the funds of an "irresponsible" person who attacks the "good folks" of the forum and "drags Berry Gordy's good name through the gutter"!
>
> You know damn well that I said nothing disrespectful about Berry Gordy! My comments were actually in favor of Berry Gordy since I was saying that he was no more "crooked" than any other record label owner at the time. Your little outburst had nothing to do with Berry Gordy and EVERYTHING to do with my spat with Julian last month. (I'm only one of several people to get into knock down drag out fights with him.) That's all fine because I really could care less anymore. If you get my money back to me I won't post to your site anymore. If I'm forced to continue posting it's not going to be pretty because I've got a lot to say to some of the "good folks' at the forum!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:28 pm:

Isaiah

I was merely warning forum members that someone may wind them up in the near future.

Rodmann

I have not deleted any of your posts. Please resubmit it.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:33 pm:

Rodmann,
I'm trying to remain neutral with this misunderstanding. I think what what you need to consider is, in a left handed way, you implied Berry was a crook. I'm sure you didn't mean that but you need to choose your words a little more carefully. Perhaps we can put this unfortunate episode away now?

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:47 pm:

Ralph,

I told Lady Mystique and David over and over again that it was wrong to call BG a crook when he was only using business practices that all of the other labels were using at the time. How can BG be a crook when his way of doing business was the norm? I also came spoke out against whoever posted this topic in my first post. David would hear none of it! If he wants to be lowdown then I can be lowdown right along with him.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 03:55 pm:

Protecting someone's integrity, especially in their absence, is not being lowdown. Quite the opposite.

Your messages merely added fuel to the fire. You suggested that everyone is the music industry is a crook.There is no doubt you said that.

How on earth you can know this is beyond me!

You are making insinuations on this website that many will find offensive. Who takes the wrap for that? Certainly not you. Nobody knows who you are but they know who we are.

Please remember that.

By Rodmann (12.221.220.148) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 04:04 pm:

Pick up any music bio on these artists from CCR's to Gladys Knight's to Doris Day's to Toni Braxton to TLC to Geraldine Hunt's to Frankie Lyman to whoever! Everytime you turn around an artist or musician is saying that they were ripped off! I didn't make this stuff up. This is the kind of stuff that has been getting leaked to the fans for years. If no has "taken the wrap" for it now no one ever will. That's why I said that BG was no worse than anyone else in the music biz. Why should he be singled out with all of the other horror stories going around. I still don't agree with this topic but you can't blame people outside the music biz for feeling the way that they do. The damage has already been done!

By Eli (68.163.25.36) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 04:22 pm:

Please,reread my post from Wednesday, Feb 25th at 10:18 pm. Thanks.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 04:58 pm:

Rodmann:
Hey bro...Could I chime in for a minute...

It wasn't so much what you said but HOW it was said and what it IMPLIED. To say that "Berry Gordy was no more crooked than many record label owners at the time" IMPLIES that most label owners were unsavory.

Granted, I wasn't there when these men (and women) were in power but from what I've learned from those who were around then that these folks were business men & women, putting their money on the line and making damn sure the line was held. Yes there were some very pathetic folks who hurt many artists (look at what Jimmy Scott suffered at the hands of Savoy Records' Herman Lubinsky) but these creatures were more than often avoided by others in the industry (after all, who wants to stand near a skunk and wind up smelling like one).

Ahmet Ertegun & Jerry Wexler (Atlantic/Atco), Jim Stewart & Estelle Axton (Stax/Volt), Clarence Avant (ABC,Maverick,Sussex/Tabu), Schwartz Brothers (Laurie), Florence Greenberg (Scepter/Wand), Clive Davis (Columbia/Epic), Allen Toussaint (Sansu/Deesu Records) ....these were men & women who were around during Gordy's tenure. Yes, Morris Levy (Roulette), Leonard Chess (Chess Records Group) and Mike Hanks (D-Town) were part of the game as well.
The point I making is that there were folks who were strong, shrewd business people and did what they had to do to keep their business alive.
Does that make them crooks? I don't think so. Is it worth discussing? Maybe, but only in a balanced and fair context.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Music Business Ethics Corrector (216.139.153.109) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 05:09 pm:

Say ummm KevGo, how about the Tarnopol's (Brunswick Records.....does that name ring a bell) ? Were they saints as well ? Should I ask Vaughn Mason if he owns the rights to "Bounce Rock Roll Skate"?

By Ron Murphy (68.42.90.140) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:25 pm:

to be a crook you would have to cheat someone out of what they should have got. almost everyone who had a record label cheated if you ask most recording artists. the fact of the matter is that most records released never recouped their costs. I started in the business in 1965, first the artist would want to audition and then if they pass that then want to know when they could sign, then want to know when were they cutting, then when their record was coming out, then when it would be on the radio, then when they would be appearing somewhere. after all that they would ask where's my money? 45RPM records in the 60's sold for about $1. unless discounted which alot were, now it cost about 10 to 12 cents to press a record and then the records went to the distributors for 35 cents which in turn went to stores from 50 to 60 cents each ....this means the label made a gross profit of around 25 cents per record and operating costs came from that, as well as covering releases that never made any money of which most do not. the artists have their side and label owners have their side it's a two way street, but unless you have tried to run a record company or really make a study of the business you'll never know. Motown was the only professional label Detroit ever had, Detroit has never been the center of the music business, people complained when Motown was here and then complained when they left. I answer this topic by saying was Motown perfect in everyway to everyone?..of course not..no business can be.. was Motown fair..YES

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:33 pm:

Music Biz Ethics Corrector - puleeeze! Should I say Jealous Friend of Detroit Journalist or some fool on a high horse....

I suggest you get a life since you have nothing positive to contribute.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Julian (205.188.209.141) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 04:21 am:

Rodmann said "...Your little outburst had nothing to do with Berry Gordy and EVERYTHING to do with my spat with Julian last month. (I'm only one of several people to get into knock down drag out fights with him.) "
*************************************************

Hey don't bring my good name into this. I've been on Motown-related forums for five years and this is the only place where I've encountered belligerence and contempt for points of view, and have had to dish out belligerence in return.

And let anyone whom I have gotten into it with characterize things for themselves. I've gotten into it with Eli and Stu, but I still could have a pleasant afternoon with either of them in the studio or on the golf course, and I hope they feel the same way.

Unfortunately, many people get into fights with each other here. Don't keep bringing my name up trying to paint me as a bad guy. I've been around here and the other message boards/forums for 5 years having pleasant dialogue for a long time, I'm not a newbee creating confusion among the members.

Hey Ron, I am lovin' that "Whole Lotta Woman." I am trying to get all of the words, though. Do you know them all?

By Juicefree20 (151.205.104.86) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 04:43 am:

Guys, I love this forum. I don't always agree with what's written, but, I respect ALL opinions. Now, maybe being new here, I don't know all of the rules, factions, etc. I have to say that this back & forth distresses me as it seems to be quite personal & has taken a turn for the ugly. I would like to comment further but I don't understand what's going on here. What started this back & forth & what's with all of the venom? As I said, I'm fairly new here & you guys have me puzzled.

I haven't read anything posted here that I haven't heard come from Motowns' own artists. Many felt slighted, many feel cheated. Were all of them lying & if so, why haven't I read of any lawsuits, on Motowns' behalf against these artists? These same quotes have been in many published books, which becomes libel. Again, I don't recall any lawsuits against either an author or an artist for libeling Berry Gordy or Motown.
I've read many Motown related books from Where Did Our Love Go, to Nowhere To Run, to Tony Turners', Mary Wilsons' & Otis Williams books. I've read Smokeys', Berrys' & Raynomas' books as well. I've heard some unflattering stories as we all have. My question now is do I face an asassination if I dare give an opinion that is contrary to this forum? I was going to start a thread asking about the accuracy of Tony Turners' books & his role (if any) in Motown. I read about his experiences with his "godfather" David Ruffin. I read his books years ago & kinda wanted to get another opinion regarding his books. After seeing what's been going on here, I don't think that I want to.
The main problem that I have here is that things seem to get too personal here. It seems that when there's a difference of opinion about certain topics, it heats up a bit too quickly & a little too full of vitriol. Man, there's nothing to be gained from that & I feel that we all lose out. As I said, maybe I missed something & I'd like to know what it is. Also, what are the rules here, what's acceptable & what's considered crossing the line.

Finally, I don't understand why our idols have to be considered as saints above reproach & question. As I've noted, most of the things said in this thread has been stated in books, some by people who were integral parts of Motown, including Berrys' own wife & co-founder Raynoma. Is her story full of lies, I'm really missing something here. I mean, I like Berry Gordy, I respect how he took $800 & turned it into the most historic label ever & gave us some of the most enduring artists, music & musicians ever. I respect the fact that he accomplished things that NO Black record (and few white owned) companies had ever done. He took a small independent Black label from Detroit & made it as mainstream as mom & apple pie, in an era & time that was not embracing Blacks & their American Dreams.

With that said, does that mean that he is not without blame or fault? Hell, who is? If he was wrong in the way that he dealt with certain people or situations, so be it. I have the highest respect for him, he's a man a not God. I don't want to think of him as perfect. I can accept the fact that he may have made missteps along the way. My father is my father but, he's also a f---up. Being my father doesn't make him any less of a f---up. In other words, I'm not going to act as though he's flawless because he's my father. Let the truth be the truth.

Berry gets most if not all of the credit for Motown & deservedly so. However, if it hadn't bee for "Smoke" would there have even been a Motown as we know it? If there hadn't been a Raynoma Gordy, would there have been a Motown as we know it? If I repeat a quote from her book regarding Berry, or anything else to support a point, is that to be considered slander? So, before I respond any further to this thread or any other thread, I need to know what's up here.

I enjoy all of you guys & I hope that isn't simply one big kissfest where we have to kiss certain butts & not ruffle certain feathers. We are all humans, imperfect at best. Let's not let personal feelings cloud our judgement & damn, could people have a difference of opinion without all of the grief? From being here the last few months & reading what posts I've read, I've got two things to say. First, I enjoy being here, I've learned a lot that I didn't know, you guys are passionate about the music & are knowledgable about it. Lastly (and most importantly), you guys are bigger than this. Please cut the crap. Can we stop beating up on one another & get back to the things that we do best: making good music, appreciating good music, sharing knowledge about good music & most importantly, trying to save this music that we all love. I think that our energies would be better spent that way. Anyone second this emotion? : )

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 05:54 am:

Juicefree20 we receive hundreds of thousands of hits per annum. All is not doom and gloom!

Please also remember that SoulfulDetroit is entertainment and it's free.

As for rules, they sit under "Conditions" on the left of your screen.

One of those rules surround "personal attacks".

To raise and discuss if Berry Gordy is a crook or not can only lead to personal attacks. It is also suggesting he was, IMO.

It is also incredibly frustrating for me to have to sit here and read this every two weeks.

Next, since IMO I am at the centre of your message, I have had altercations with just about everyone I have ever worked with or ever been in company with. In other words I speak my mind and stand my ground. I believe passionately in what I am doing here and am constantly surprised and demoralised at the amount of criticism I have to take.

I hate the inference that kissing butts is helpful here. What a ******* JOKE! We are looking for productive discussion here. We are looking to learn more from our hobby, not crucify those who have been the source of our enjoyment for four decades.

To achieve this there must be some kind of discipline and people hate that. But what else do we do? Do we let everyone run amok? NO WAY, THAT WOULD BE TERMINAL.

Now how many people have I had altercation with in two and a half years? Approx 12. Several such as Stubass, Mel and Mike McLean, (and myself) get over it and don't hold grudges. Others do hold grudges and leave. So be it.

It is also my opinion that three of the people that we learn most from on this site never cause grief and never need to stoop to it. Their posts are interesting and informative, that is what we are after on SoulfulDetroit. I'm sure I don't have to name them but I will if asked.

David

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:12 am:

And on another statistical front there are 65 discussions live (within the last 24 hours).

105 different participants on those 65 threads.

424 postings on those 65 threads

Two threads contain controversy. Both have/had input from Music Business Ethics Director.

I'm proud of these statistics and ask Ralph to take a bow.

David
p.s.
I am also proud of the fact that SoulfulDetroit is only 20 weeks away from placing a marker at the grave of one of Soul Music's greatest performers. Something that has never happened since his burial in 1970.

No brags, just facts.

By Isaiah (64.12.96.238) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:59 am:

Juice, post your thoughts, man... You cannot control what people are going to think, do, or say - but have your say, and roll with the blows, if there are any... These heated discussions are borne out of passion, not hostility... Differences of opinions are everywhere we go in this life, and those who are looking for everyone to agree with them are not being realistic... That's a world of fantasy...

Peace!
Isaiah

By Ron Murphy (68.42.90.140) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:28 pm:

Julian:oh yeah..I know the words by heart: well you're my baby with your pretty eyes, with a pretty face and your pretty thighs, you're so nice and you're so sweet..you're sweeping me right off my feet........ I was wondering if you received the copy.

By Julian (205.188.209.141) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 02:04 pm:

Hey Ron, some parts of the chorus I find unintelligible. If you get any free time email me what's being said in the chorus parts.

By Juicefree20 (68.161.38.12) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 08:42 pm:

What's up Isaiah, I will do that because I don't know any other way to be, but to be myself. David, I understand what you're saying & from of the some of the things that I've read, I know that it gets heated here at times. Now, I'm not inferring that there has to be any butt kissing here, I honestly wanted to know what's taboo here. I ask that because, I responded to a thread regarding Justin & the whole affair. I thought that I pushed Post, but, the next day, I didn't see my post. Upon reflection, I thought, no, in fact I know that I had gone a bit overboard with my colorful prose (No vulgarity)& that perhaps it was deleted.

I wrote out of concern because it was getting REAL heated here. I enjoy both your & Rodmanns' posts, as such, I hate to see any hard feelings, as you both usually bring something to the table. But, the stuff was flying from so many directions, man, if everybody had been in the same room at the same time.....

Anyway, I'm glad to see that there seems to be no long term damage & I look forward to reading & learning more from all of the fine people here in the forum! Peace to all!

By JoB (63.168.103.2) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 04:39 am:

...just one more thing to say and then I'll let it go...I respect BG just as much as anyone else on this forum...and I've seen everyone from Diana Ross, to MJ, to even Lena Horne have comments written about them that weren't exactly in the positive way (all recently, and all whom deserve just as much respect as anyone else in the biz)...but no one got upset about it, as they were all just that - DISCUSSIONS. A little heated maybe, but discussions, nonetheless. Why should BG be any different? He is a public music figure, just like the rest of them. And maybe I'm mistaken but I didn't see Rodman using foul language or anything else that should be considered "disrespectful" when he was posting his comments, so he is doing nothing but what IMO keeps this forum going - participating in a discussion, at the risk of disagreeing with the "popular vote".

I also do not think there was anything wrong woth the original question asked...In your opinions, which of the two was BG?

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 07:41 am:

JoB

For the umpteenth time...I am fed up with the inferences that Berry Gordy was a crook. There must be at least 30 threads on this forum with such inferences. And despite comments to the contrary. from people who knew him who frequent this forum, the questions continue to be raised.

I do not get this, I do not understand the need for it. I do not understand the need to put people down in their absence and in public.

Why don't you people start realising that Berry Gordy might just be sitting reading this forum on a weekly basis?

And finally why don't you and everybody just start abiding by the rules which are No Personal Attacks. Insinuating or calling someone a crook when you have absolutely no evidence is disgraceful and is also a personal attack.

Has the man ever been found guilty in a court of law?

NO.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 08:15 am:

Juicefree20

I have never deleted any of your posts.

I have never deleted any of your posts. Ever.

Of the 105 participants on this forum in my survey I have only ever deleted the posts of 4 of these participants.

Ever.

By coincidence(?)one of them happens to be your outspoken pal Isaiah, who has calmed down recently, thankfully.

Now perhaps these statistics should bring your complaint into some kind of context.

My overall opinion is that we have one of the most civilised forums on the Web. That comes at a cost. The cost being people are asked to contribute in a mature and realistic fashion.

Mature and realistic are very important words. They bring civility and the opportunity for greater learning.

I am also not asking everyone to agree with my thoughts. This is being confused with another important word...dignity. I want people to act with dignity, then we will have no problems.

But sadly, 3 weeks from now we'll have to go thru this subject again. That is another fact.

David
ps I reiterate. No one is barred from SoulfulDetroit Forum. But there is the option of finding somewhere else with more liberal views. I am not forcing anyone to come through these doors.

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 11:36 am:

IF I MAY SAY ONE SMALL THING,I LIKE ALOT OF YOU HAVE READ LOTS OF INFO ON MOTOWN OVER THE YEARS[THERE ALOT I HAVEN'T READ TOO]BUT IN ALL THE INERVIEWS I HAVE SEEN I HAVE YET TO HEAR ONE OF THE EX-MOTOWNERS CALL BERRY[A CROOK]NOW MAYBE SOMEONE DID,BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN IT,SOME ARE PISSED AT THIER TREATMENT THERE BUT I HAVEN'T HEARD THE WORD[CROOK]YET,AND REMEMBER THAT BERRY DELEGATED ALOT OF RESPONSIBILITIES TO OTHERS[NOT TO MAKE EXCUSES]BUT WHEN SOMENE IS IN CHARGE THEY MAKE DECISIONS,THAT ARE NOT ALWAY IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE PEOPLE UNDER THEM,SO WHEN THOSE PEOPLE GET MAD[JUSTIFIED OR NOT]THE BLAME IS AIMED AT THE TOP,HOW MANY TIMES IN EVERYDAY LIFE DO WE HEAR[HE/SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY IT MUST HAVE COME FROM THE TOP]BUT FROM WHAT WE KNOW OF MOTOWN,CERTAIN PEOPLE DID HAVE THE AUTHORITY GIVEN TO THEM BY BERRY,AND AS A BUSINESS GROW INTO A CORP.YOU HAVE TO DELEGATE THE BEST THAT YOU CAN TO GET THE JOB DONE,AS I SAID WAS EVERYONE HAPPY[NO]BUT SHOW ME ANY LARGE CORP.WHERE EVERYONE IS BECAUSE I WANNA WORK THERE TOO...BERRY'S NO CROOK!

By Clay (68.43.133.99) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 01:56 pm:

For those of you making negative comments based on hear say.....How can you pass or make judgement when you were'nt actually there or a part of what you're trying to make statements about.......? How many people do you know outside of the MOTOWN family that are still getting real royalties and recognition 40yrs after the fact...........? And those that aren't getting royalties if you look deep enough you'll find that there is a good reason why they are'nt..................................

If Berry had not been there to get HITSVILLE off the ground there never would have been the artists,musicians,producers,engineers,techs,writers and others that help to create the most"PROLIFIC" record company in the World. And then in his Sister
Gwen Fuqua Gordy's name and out of his own pockets helped to establish a fund for music folk in need of medical and hardship assistance from money he earned while at the helm.The Man is Special,Blessed and has GOD'S help................................

I guess all great men must take some hits and bits of abuse from folk that never really knew them....Even those that claim to not like him have a deep sense of respect for what he created on WEST GRAND BLVD. I know him and I love who he is and what he did for ME and ALL of my fellow and female Motown associates,he helped to give us a genuine start,along with a sense of pride,made us a part of his family,the opportunity to be creative ,self supporting and become major cornerstones of Motown's UNDYING music history......Let me see you go out and find or buy that TODAY..................

PEACE

By FAYETTE (205.188.209.141) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 05:23 pm:

AND I ALWAYS HEARD MEN START WARS. WHILE YOU
GUYS ARGUING AND DEBATING WHAT BERRY GORDY
DID OR DIDN'T DO HE SITTING BACK MINDING
HIS OWN BUSINESS AND ENJOYING HIS MONEY.

By R&B (138.238.41.215) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 05:34 pm:

HEY FAYETTE,WHERE YOU BEEN IT'S GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU,AND YOU'RE RIGHT,BERRY MIGHT BE READING THIS AND LAUGHIN HIS[YOU KNOW WHAT]OFF!BERRY FOREVER!

By Juicefree20 (151.205.170.203) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 06:07 pm:

Ok David, I appreciate your words. I don't believe that we will all agree on everything, that's what makes this great. My thing is to try to use reason or facts to substantiate my position. I understand that it can get a bit frustrating, as some people are not open to reason. The only thing that I can say is that I wish that some people wouldn't take differences of opinions so personally as so many do. I believe that there's room for an opinion that doesn't match mine. If I see that discourse is futile, at some point I'll leave it alone. I recognize the need for order & I try to temper my remarks with a little calm.
I didn't think that you had deleted my posting, I thought that I had sent it, that's why I asked you that. I believe that if you've seen any of my postings, you'll find that I don't personally attack anyone, regardless of how ticked off their remarks make me. I don't feel that anyone on this forum should attack anyone, as I don't believe that's what we're here for. I know that I'm here to share info (limited as it may be) & to learn from those who really know about music. So far, so good, I get the sense that most here are decent & well intentioned & seem like old friends. I like that & hope that it will continue in that manner.
Thanks again David for responding, I'm glad to have any misunderstandings cleared up.

By JoB (63.168.103.2) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 01:04 am:

David...believe it or not, I never said nor do I think that BG was a crook...I also understand your frustration at him being attacked so frequently. All I'm saying is, no, BG was never found guilty in a court of law as you said, but neither was MJ, and yet when the JUST AS MANY discussions get started on him, it's open season, and I never saw you jumping to HIS defense or stating the "no personal attacks rule".

No one can rightfully say that BG was a crook as they don't know for sure, just as no one can rightfully call MJ a molester, as they don't know for sure. But people will always have their opinions to share, though it may not be popular.

You may not think so, but you and I are actually in agreement here, as I said before, I consider BG as one of my heroes, and am just as tired of seeing his name dragged through the mud as you are.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:40 am:

I deleted a number of posts regarding Michael Jackson! I am also unable to read every single posting on this site.

IMO Michael Jackson is innocent until proven guilty. Please do NOT suggest that I think otherwise.

One final point about this nonsense. This forum was a disaster zone three months ago due the inconsiderate actions of a number of people who should have known better.

We have taken a grip of it and will continue to do so. But expect inconsistency, albeit innocent, along the way.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:40 am:

Many thanks to Clay McMurray. Someone who was there in a big way.

By ~medusa~ (68.79.99.31) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:38 am:

Berry Gordy is a good Man, he's just misunderstood, and we don't really know what was goin' on behind the scenes. We never really know what lies in wait for poeple with strong minds and know how to build or make something great. None of us never walked in Berry Gordys' shoes, or carried the unknown burdens he had being a Black Man keeping his eyes on his prize.
I don't know him personally, but everytime I hear a Motown Song, or see a Motown Artist, I see what Berry Gordy brought to life Musically...and I'm so glad he never just stood there and looked a gifted Horse in the mouth...otherwise there probably would've never been a "MOTOWN" sound at all.
The Man hand picked the best musicians, the best choreogrophers, the best song writers, and the LAdy who taught them how to be poised and polished when in public...he made dreams come true for some young folks who didn't even know how to make their dreams a reality. He loved what he was doing and who he was doing it with and who he was doing it for...it's just too bad there are people who always look for the bad an not the good in a person.
The bottom line is MOTOWN is and always will be a part of musical history and thanx to the dreams come true of a Man and his house on West Grand Blvd., in Detroit...Thanx Berry~~We Love you too.

By LadyMystique (216.108.198.254) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:23 pm:

Ralph, Eli, and Davids91-I agree! And Ralph, that was also mentioned in Berry's book that it was Smokey that told him that he should go all the way with releasing his records...the famous $3.14 story!

Rodmann, I never called Berry a crook...please re-read my posts...

In fact, please read: By LadyMystique (216.37.229.3) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 08:53 pm:


Hey what's up with this...

I look up to Berry Gordy as one of my heroes...he has established not only a label but a legacy as IMHO he has done what only others DREAM about.

Props to BG...all the way!

I wish we go back to discussing the music...sometimes it gets too heated!

By ~medusa~ (68.79.166.96) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:29 pm:

and I 2nd that emotion LadyMistique

By Juicefree20 (68.161.40.45) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:29 pm:

And I think that these lovely ladies have a excellent point. Well said ladies!

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 09:40 pm:

HERE'S A DELIGHTFUL LITTLE TOPIC THAT I DIDN'T START AND A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF HOW THINGS ARE DONE HERE AT GOOD OL' SDF!
__________________________________________________

Someone started this topic (I thought it was Spooky at the time but now I don't think so) asking if Berry Gordy was a crook or was he fair. I was the 3rd or 4th person to respond to this and at first I stated that this whole topic was disrespectful but then I thought better and decided to discuss the matter in a fair and civilized manner. All of us don't know Berry Gordy personally so why not shed some light on this topic and have an intelligent discussion? That way the forum members who don't know will have a chance to maybe change some negative thoughts that they may have had about Berry Gordy. In my next post I defended BG and stated that he wasn't anymore of a "crook" than anyone else since there are a million horror stories going around about the music biz. Some people may not like BG being associated with the name "crook" but remember that I wasn't the one who started this topic and I was merely answering a question that someone else asked!

Later on that day I was struck by Juicefree20's post because he was brave enough to go against the popular belief on this forum and say that he DID think that some of Berry's business practices were unfair. We all know what happens to people who go against popular belief on this forum don't we? THEY GET EATEN ALIVE! So I took the opportunity to applaud Juice's bravery in my next post and I also made the comment that sometimes we as fans refuse to believe anything negative about our idols even if it is true. That's why we refuse to discuss some things about people.

LadyMystique took offense to this last post and posted that my comment did not pertain to her for she "takes the bitter with the sweet". Now "Big Bad, Troublemaker" Rodmann could have been nasty and brutal in his response to her but instead I chose to be civil, pleasant and courteous. I informed Lady that I meant no harm and that I was guilty of living in a "fool's paradise" sometimes too just like anyone else. If someone was to tell me something bad about one of my favorite musicians or sports heroes I would not want to hear it. Lady responded that she understood and we even had a laugh about it! End of story.

Not quite! David Meikle writes an angry and vicious post directed towards me stating that I personally attacked the "good folks" and "dragged BG's name through the gutter". WTF? If he would have read what I had to say he would have seen that this wasn't the case. He couldn't have missed my friendly exchange with Lady. If my posts were meant to be hostile I would have been nasty towards her but I wasn't! I defended myself firmly but in a respectful manner. David M. would hear none of it and continued to lie and say that I had attacked folks. But I still remained as pleasant as could be expected. Instead of admitting that he was wrong David then blames his behavior on a spat I had with Julian that was over a month old at this time. Go figure!

After David's tantrum several of you (Ralph, Eli. etc.) jumped on the Let's Get Rodmann bandwagon and proceeded to tell me how much you enjoy Motown's music, BG has given joy to millions and given you a billion smiles, etc. What are you telling me that for? I enjoy Motown just as much as anyone else but that wasn't the question that the person who started this topic asked! You don't have to defend BG against me! If you were going to unfairly attack anyone I'm surprised it wasn't Juicefree! His comments were even less flattering towards BG than mine! JoB WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO WOULDN'T STAND FOR ANY OF THIS NONSENSE AND SPOKE UP ON MY BEHALF! Thanks for that JoB but by that time it was too late.

Julian - I dislike you just as much as you dislike me. You've tried to bait me into going another few rounds with you on several topics including this one and the Racist Thread but I've remained an adult. You saw that David was the one who dragged you into this topic yet you took this opportunity to get your little jabs in. Now we can be civilized about this or I can continue to clown with you every time you want to start a fight. Don't make me no difference!

LadyMystique - I want you to point out to me where in this topic I said that YOU said BG was a crook. Did you really believe that or were you just jumping on the bandwagon along with everyone else when you said what you did on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:23 pm?

David later used these same tactics on RD this past Saturday. He attacks you for no reason and then justifies his actions with a past fight. And I stepped in and stood up for RD even though no one except JoB spoke up on my behalf.

David and Ralph say no "personal attacks" yet they do that very thing every time that they disagree with someone or something. If you approach me in a disrespectful manner laced with foul language then you're going to get the same thing back! I tried the nice guy thing (as you can see on this post) and it didn't work. It seems as if the only time people back off on this forum is when you're cussing them out!

I'm not losing any sleep over this because I know the truth but THIS IS JUST SOMETHING TO MAKE YOU THINK!

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 09:49 pm:

Rodmann,
You seem to spend an awful lot of time complaining. If it is so bad here, why do you stay?

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 09:57 pm:

Ralph, That's exactly what I'm talking about. You had a perfect opportunity to be an adult like I was in the post that you are responding to but you chose to take a jab instead! Suit yourself.

To answer your question, I haven't posted anything about music like I used to since this thread that we are on. I guess I stick around because I'm so loved around here. Knowing that you and others hate it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

By RD (65.54.97.192) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 09:58 pm:

Yea Rodmann, the Don/RD incident is even older than the Rodmann/Julian conflict. Still, it was dragged back up. Why? And I'll bet it will be dragged up again. I guess it's just in some's nature to hold grudges--forever.

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:01 pm:

That's right RD. That's how they like to do business around here. You're nice to them you get walked on and if you speak up for yourself or disagree with anyone you're a troublemaker! LOL.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:04 pm:

Rodmann,
I think you may be somewhat misinformed son. I don't thnk you're all that loved around here at the moment. You could try and turn that around, but I doubt that you will. I really think there are those that just need to complain about something. Wish you and I could try and see eye to eye, but it appears we are on parallel roads partner. Too bad.

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:07 pm:

Ralph, I guess that we are on parallel roads because obviously you can't tell sarcasm when you read it. I know that's I'm not liked around here but I could care less. I tried my best.

If you would have read my post before you said that I was "ranting and raving" you would have seen that I didn't attack anyone.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 05:15 am:

RD

You called me a liar. I went to the archives and proved that I was not lying. I did this because you attacked Horse completely and utterly unnecessarily - twice.

As for holding grudges, you obviously missed my invitation to join me and others in D for a beer.

That applies to Rodmann too.

David

By mike s (195.93.34.12) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 07:45 am:

Man this is sad.

By Patric (80.79.97.7) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 08:46 am:

Yes indeed. Take it easy guys. After two weeks the discussion's startin' all over again.
I do like a good discussion, but this is goin' nowere, you're back at were you started.

Keep that Soul Alive !!!

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 01:37 pm:

David, I'm all for calling a truce and sharing a beer but how can we move on when this issue has never been resolved?

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:03 pm:

What do you suggest Rodmann?

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:42 pm:

I'm not sure David. I just think that you attacked me without knowing everything that happened on this topic. You misunderstood my comments about BG. I can understand you getting upset about the comments that I made about the music biz but it seems like every artist I hear is saying that they didn't receive all of their royalties. If you have inside knowledge on this subject all you had to do was share it and set the record straight. You didn't have to approach me the way you did since I wasn't being confrontational. Up until this point I had kept all of my posts super friendly and about the music since my fiasco with Julian.

I'm not being confrontational but I'm hoping that we can find some common ground.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:51 pm:

Rodmann

All we want here is PEACE.

If we can have dialogue such as we are having right now then all will be well.

I agree that things were great post Julian but one way or another it got completely out of control.

I think we are ALL having difficulty in taking proper readings from all posts.

All it takes is one small comment and someone like myself with a quick temper can go over the edge.

Like I say no one is barred but we all need to show more respect to each other.

How that is achieved when there are strong personalities around is nigh impossible. IMO.

Let's see how it goes.

David

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 04:00 pm:

Thank you David. I totally agree and I know that you must be fed up with all of the bickering (and BG gossip) which has being going on long before I ever posted to this forum. I too have a quick temper and if I feel that someone attacks me in a confrontational manner I retaliate without even thinking.

I'm man enough to admit that my comments about you being a racist had more to do with this topic than they did about the actual facts. I don't know many KKKlan leaders that would admit to listening to Patti LaBelle! LOL.

I hope that we can move on from this.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.10) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 04:50 pm:

Thanks Rodmann.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.106.125) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 09:28 pm:

Hey Rodmann, what's up? Now, why are you trying to get me burned up in here? I thought that we had put this baby to bed .

I thought that what I wrote was fair & consistent with known facts. I gave my opinion & praise in fair measure. I don't think that I was overly critical of him, nor, had I any axe to grind against him. Actually, I thought that I was balanced & respectful overall. I wasn't trying to slam him & I think that people picked up on my overall tone. I guess that's why I didn't get hammered. I hope that this thread is not going to start the name calling & arguing all over again. As I said, I thought that this baby was sleeping peacefully.

I'm glad to see that the olive branch of peace has been extended & I'm glad to see that. We've got bigger fish to fry, like getting some of those unissued classics released & getting a whole lot of our heroes some airplay & recording contracts. Onward & upward!

By Rodmann (12.223.170.105) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 09:51 pm:

What's up Juice! LOL. I'm sorry that I had to use you as an example. I was just making a point. I thought that I was being balanced and respectful too and you see what happened to me! LOL. Once again I've learned that you really have watch how you phrase things on this forum. It can get ugly even if that isn't your intention.

I apologize again for dragging you into this.

Peace

Rod

By Michael McLean (67.30.237.16) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:01 pm:

This thread is stupid!

Berry Gordy Jr. was not a crook.

He hired me in 1961. I worked for him until 1972.

There was never a more decent and honest man.

Mike McLean

By Weldon A. Mc Dougal III (68.80.162.3) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:15 pm:

THANKS Mike, I worked for Berry Gordy and he was always decent and honest with me,and I always got paid ontime,
WELDON

By Michael McLean (67.30.237.15) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:32 pm:

WELDON,

The only time I bother with this rag of pus (SoulfulDetroitForum) is when I am drunk.

At least two of us know that Berry Gordy Jr. was a man of honor and decency of the most high and nurturing sort.

These worms that question his sense of decency are the sort that read those cheap tabloids on the stand next to the check out counter at the finest super market that I can find.

What can you do?

I stand there and read them and put them back. It gives me a thrill to read lies and remember how he actually was.

Pure filth!

Mike McLean

By Juicefree20 (151.205.106.125) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:36 pm:

It's ok Rod.

By Juicefree20 (151.205.106.125) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:47 pm:

Damn, here we go again. I thought that we had ALREADY established that Berry was not a crook. I think that we can move on now

By Michael McLean (67.30.237.15) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:55 pm:

So you don't like people that arrive late....

I have just as much right to my opinion as you younger folks that started this silly thread!

JuiceFree20! Hah! Is this about your sperm count?

Yellow smile face.

Mike McLean

By CamSmith (12.75.37.19) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:59 pm:

I believe the folks who worked for Mr. Gordy have said it best.

I never had the chance to work for Motown but David, Ralph, Russ, Millie, and Weldon among others did. From this thread and other topics posted on this sight they all seemed to cherish their employment at Motown.

It must have been a magical experience. I wish I would have had the honor of seeing the Motown logo on the top of my paycheck.

Sammy Davis, Jr. once was quoted in the Detroit Free Press (in a Bob Talbert column) as saying he would sweep the floors at Hitsville just to find out how they created that magic "Motown Sound."

Me too. Me too.

Cam

By Juicefree20 (151.205.106.125) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:03 am:

Mike, I've never said anything out of line to you, or about you. On another thread, it was questioned why you were allowed to say pretty much what you want. I've been reading your wonderfully insightful comments about this forum, especially the welcome that you sent to a person who was posting here for the very first time. It was acknowledged that you have a wealth of knowledge & I respect your standing.

As I said, I've never attacked you & although it's tempting, I'll not stoop to your level....this time. Why you felt the need to go there is unbeknownst to me. This wasn't my thread, however, I have the right to an opinion, just as you do. I don't recall insulting you & wonder why you felt the need to do so.

Now David & Ralph, do you feel that what this fine gentleman just wrote was appropriate, or contained the spirit of harmony, that this forum strives for? I'll wait for a response from either of you, before posting anything further. I also ask you if you found anything that I posted within this thread to be inflammatory or uneccessarily unfair? I don't go around picking fights, or respond in a vulgar manner. For the time being, I'll take the high road.

For the record: as I'm 43 years of age, I consider being called a youngster to be a compliment. It's refreshing to be the youngster for a change.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 04:52 am:

JF20
Do you think that I enjoy reading that SoulfulDetroit is a "rag of pus"?

FYI I have had it out with Mike McLean on the forum and by e-mail.

Please, I have no favourites on this forum or in life in general.

I tell it like it is to everyone!

I'm going to leave your question for Ralph to action if he feels it's necessary. My continually butting in is not helping.

Finally, Moderator's are appointed to referee forums.

You must be prepared to suffer the imperfections of the human being.

Try even to put yourself in our place.

Personally if I thought that there was malpractice going on in somewhere I frequented I would leave.

Now please take that last sentence as my opinion and not a hint.

many thanks
David

By stephanie (69.138.239.31) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:14 am:

Is Berry a Crook? No not really but when you sign kids up to a contract with no legal counsel and they dont get certain things out of ignorance some people may label that as being crooked!!! I dont think he was a crook in the sense but I DO think that if he didnt have to tell someone something about what was due them he may not have told them. Motown did pay everyone from people I have talked to and some of the artists may have been led to believe that they had more coming to them but my question is that if he is not a crook when the artists started asking about where their money was going and started hiring outside accountants how come he didnt want to answer them?
Stephanie

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:17 am:

Juice,
Mike is an enigma. He also has many personal issues and I personlly feel he is in a lot of pain. I feel for him. I have been accused of letting him slide on so many things. I guess that is true. I suppose the forum is just going to have to realize how far back Mike and I go. The forum is going to have to try and understand the real depth of this guy's genius ( even though you CAN be a pain in the ass Mikie ) and his unfathamable contribution to to the technical side of recording arts and sciences. He pretty much wrote the book on what would become known as the Motown Sound.
Am I wrong to cut him slack where I might jump on someone else for similar trespasses. Yeah, maybe. Isaiah has rightfully called me out on this. You all must realize I saw the guy in action. I don't think I could ever describe to you the Mike McLean of Motown to a degree that you would really get it. Remember, I was THERE when, after the tech staff had labored for hours over a problem in the Disc Lathe Room, Mike came blasting in and shouted " TIME ME"!! In less than a minute the problem was diagnosed. I was THERE when Mike decided to shave his head and face and put on Granny Specs and walk around the halls laughing with glee on the inside because no one ( including myself ) had a clue who the guy was. I noded hello to this " stranger " and when it finally dawned on me who it was as I got a ways down the corrider from him, I turned to see him doubled up in laughter at the success of his ruse over me.

So what the Hell do I do with Mike? Nothing. I will continue to let him slide and I suppose I will continue to catch heat over my lack of action. Sorry gang. That's Mike McLean. Maybe if we just adoted the attitude that he is the Don Rickles of SD. It's an honor to be insulted by the guy.

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 03:36 pm:

Good Morning David & Ralph. I appreciate your honest responses. Ralph, I didn't expect such a candid & honest response. I honestly appreciate it. I appreciate the fact that you even spoke of Isaiah & acknowledged that Isaiah was correct about some criticisms of you. I give you big time credit for that, as many people would not have had the decency to do so. I have to say that I don't consider it an honor to be insulted by anyone. If we give him the right to be the comedian of the forum, why not give Rodmann or Isaiah the right to be the militants of the forum. Ralph, now you know that fair is fair. If turnabout is fairplay, I have no problem with Mike saying whatever he wants. However, in the spirit of fairness, others should be given the same latitude. However, you know what happens then, it's called chaos & anarchy. Truthfully, I have a better idea. Everybody should respect one another & just agree to disagree.

To me, an insult to one of us is an insult to all of us. Even though, you guys go way back, I was insulted for you that he wrote what he did about this site. I wonder what he'd say if he DIDN'T like you, that's a scary thought. You defend him & he repays you by telling a prospective member that this is a "rag of pus". That's one hell of a thank you & I was angry for all of us. I don't think that that was fair & he disrespected a lot of people by painting everyone with the same brush. Still, I said nothing, I remained silent. He said nothing to me directly, so, I let it lay. Until he decided to engage me directly. Rather than get into a battle here, I decided to address you. Frankly, no one comes here to see me go back & forth with anyone. I'm no singer, who cares about that type of nonsense.

I had started to fire back, with a nasty missive. I'm not the type of person who suffers insults, while turning the other cheek. While I understand the depth of your relationship, it's not fair if a person can get away with certain thing, while others can not. It's only natural for a person to want to defend themselves from personal attacks. As long as a person can defend themselves without getting overly profane, it's cool.

I do not attack anyone personally without just cause. I may challenge them to consider their beliefs, bur, I'm not into name calling or things as such. From some of his remarks, I understand that he may be troubled. That still doesn't make it right. I'm still on Similac & Pampers, regarding my length of time here in this forum. As I told you before, I find that 90% of the members, usually have some excellent info to share & are passionate about the music.

I think that it's great to be able to hear from industry folks like Bobby E, KevGo, Dennis C, Ceasar, Clay, Soul Sister, Spyder, Levi's daughter Deborah (if I've left anyone out, I'm sorry, I just woke up) & yes, even Mike, as he has some good info to share. For me, it's a honor, to be able to hear their first hand impressions & knowledge of music. I have respect for them & that's another reason that I refrained from reacting foolishly. That's not what this forum is supposed to be about. How would it look if someone who is either a artist, or a regular person, were to come to this forum & read garbage like that? That person could have some valuable info to bring to the table. Perhaps, that person would read a nasty message from me & decide that this site is worthless. In such a case, what would I have accomplished? Nothing of value & might have risked alienating a person, or persons, who could have provided all of us with some valuable info.

The main reason is a bit more selfish. How I represent myself is important to me. More than that, this forum contains people, who through their postings, I've come to like & respect. People such as: Bobby E, KevGo, SisDetroit, Medusa, Isaiah, Rod, The Chancellor, Dennis C, DyvaNaye (GET WELL SOON!!!), NYC Diva, Lady Mystique, Ceasar, jrlo, Soul Sister, Lady Love, Clay, Handsome, Vonnie, Robb K, JoB, Kev-Lo, RD, Spookey, The Russi Brothers, Nosey, LynnBruce, Slyfan, Manny, Wonder B, Jack A, Joe M, Moe, GoGoGirl, Cornbread, Spyder, Destruction, Fayette, Vince & you two gentlemen as well. I would feel very bad if you folks couldn't respect me. We don't always agree, but I respect all of you as people who bring something to the table, whether some folks like what you have to say,or not. Now, if I were to carry on like a fool, what kind of credibility would I have with those of you who are serious about the music? All that it would prove is that I've learned some very harsh, derogatory words in my travels.

I respect a KevGo, who will correct an erroneous post of mine. I respect those who share pictures & memories that I'd know nothing about, if not for your generous spirits & love for the music. I sure wouldn't have seen or heard about it in the papers, or on the news. You people here are the lifeline that keeps the heart of Soul beating & that means something to me; it has value to me.

I respect anyone who tries to get me to consider a point of view other than mine. In fact, one of the youngest members here wrote a response regarding the Motown/Timberlake thread, that made me stop & think about my position regarding the subject. The point is, though everyone here is not a professional, they may have something worthwhile to contribute. Even if I don't agree, if they've thought out their position & it's simply a matter of opinion, I have to acknowledge that. Isaiah & Rodmann do catch a lot of heat. I find that if you take personalities out of it, often, they're making very good points, as often things are not as Black & White as we'd like them to be. It seems to me that they're trying to see those shades of grey, that often remain hidden in shadows.

The point is, Soulful Detroit was in existence before I came here. I came here to learn & to contribute whatever knowledge & insight I have to offer, limited as it may be. I'd like to see this forum grow into a movement that can accomplish something good, something positive. If I can help to achieve that, then I've done some good. Before I push send, I think of these things, which drew me here in the first place. The dialog & love for the music. We have enough people dogging our music. I see no need for me to help denigrate our music further. It's usually a joy to be here & I look forward to what everyone's thinking & what new bit of info has been discovered.

I also think of a DyvaNaye, a SisDetroit, a lady love, a jrlo, a Medusa & ask myself, is that the type of impression that I'd like to leave them with? Is that the way that I'd like to present myself to the otherwise decent members of this forum? My answer is no & before I post anything overly derogatory because of a bruised ego, or a slight, I'll take the high road. I'm not saying that I won't respond. I will simply refuse to become derogatory & get in the gutter with an antagonist. If I can't be part of the solution, I refuse to be part of the problem. I have too much respect for most of you, to help drag this forum down with responses to basic foolishness.

It's not the "Juicefree/Julius Freeman Show". It's about the music that we all profess to love. In that spirit, I'll try to keep it clean & profane free. Just because individuals choose to be insulting, profane & derogatory, doesn't mean that I must reply in kind. I can rip someone apart without using any four letter words. I choose to let their ignorance speak for them, I refuse to be goaded into allowing their ignorance, speak for me. It is because of my respect for most of you, as well as the respect for what this forum represents, that I chose not to respond in kind. Had we been on the street, I assure you that my response would not have been this gracious.

Again, I appreciate your responses, I don't hold you responsible for monitoring & controlling everyones' words. How could you? I don't know what else to say, as I'm sure that you'll continue to catch heat if he continues as he does. I also know that you'll catch heat if you don't allow the same latitude to others. At least you realize that & you're honest. My oldest sister is mentally retarded. I've learned that sometimes, you have to let some things go, I can't respond to everything that she says or does. Sometimes, you have to try to understand & try a little tenderness.

Hopefully, one day, all of the petty bickering & disrespect will cease. Perhaps, one day, it will be accepted that folks have differences of opinions. If that day should come, we'll all be better off.

Respectfully To All

Juicefree20/Julius Freeman

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 03:55 pm:

Juice,
thanks for the letter. I agree with much of what you say but Isaiah, Rodmann, or even myself are not on a level playing field with the likes of a Mike McLean. You have got to try and understand this. Beleive me, I have more than enough times been the target of his occasional wrath. But let's try to closely examine this extremely complex individual. He's different. I was at his house one evening enjoying a visit when he produced the Rolling Stones latest album to me ( might have been " Let It Bleed " ) and started playing the various cuts and excitely extolling the first class engineering standards of the album. He was getting off on some very well recorded Rock and Roll. He told me he had spent the entire past night listening to the album over and over and just marveling at the sound.
Do you see where I'm going Juice? None of us are in his league. The primary focus of this web-site is Motown. I gotta be honest here. Without Mike McLean there may not have been a Motown. Or at least not the Motown we now admire. I can't change my position here Juice. Sorry. I don't mean to disappoint you. You just have to understand where I've come from and what I know.

By ~medusa~ (68.249.240.236) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 04:00 pm:

whew!!!! I'm glad we all don't make the decision to get under any mind altering influences and start posting on this Forum....
it would be just terrible~~~OMG!
Juicefree20, you're a great person, and thank you for respecting yourself and others...you got my R~E~S~P~E~C~T.

By Ralph (209.240.205.62) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 04:11 pm:

P.S. Juice,
I find it amazing that you were surprised that I admitted I was wrong. I have never maintained here that I am right at all times. I can only moderate to the best of my ability. There is no way imaginable I will be popular with the entire forum at ANY given time. The job ain't easy pal.

By Vonnie (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 04:48 pm:

Juice,

You are a REAL MAN, and I salute you!!!! If a few more people had your sincere attitude then maybe the misunderstandings would be less.

Some people are just plain vindicative and petty. Sir, I address you in this manner because you have shown to me you are a "Sir". I thank you for your reasoned comments and restraint; I know that it is sometimes hard to maintain decorum when you are personally attacked.

My favorite spiritual writer T.D. Jakes says:

"In the begining was the Word, but sometimes words hurt. Things said in anger or ignorance can put a wall between you and someone else. When someone is cruel and thoughtless and verbally attacking you, whatever the specifics, the effect is the same: You find yourself involved in a war of words.

It may sound crazy, but you can take miscommunication and thank God for it! Whether you realize it or not, you have been given a chance to grow even closer to someone using communication as the tool. Through your misunderstanding can come understanding. Through the flames can come friendship."

Vonnie

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 05:42 pm:

Hello Vonnie:

There's a lot of truth in that. Something to think about.

Peace!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:00 pm:

JuiceFree:
Thank you for the "big-ups" here on the thread.

If I do come across as someone who "corrects" those please let it be known that it is not my intention to do so. If anything, I try to share whatever knowledge I have and learn from those "who were there" either as industry people or fans.

I do hope that since folks like yourself, Common and a few others are New Yorkers that we could one day meet for dinner or a Sunday brunch and talk about the music that we all love the most (non-New Yorkers are definitely welcome).

Sincerely and with kind regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (68.236.53.71) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:27 pm:

Amen Juice, Vonnie et al especially et al!!!!

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:29 pm:

Hello Ralph. I was only surprised because as you well know, that's not always the response received here. Man, I couldn't do your job & I'm not knocking your ability in any way, shape or fashion. I remember a recent thread regarding the why companies don't release certain material. KevGo pointed out all of the legal & financial decisions that decide such things. What I'm saying is that, just as he's privy to certain things that I'd never considered, you're also privy to things that we probably can't begin to know the half of. As such, you have to make the decisions that you deem best for the overall health of the forum. It's not my place to argue. I'm a visitor here, a visitor by choice. If I felt that all you were horrible, I wouldn't bother to come here. Respectfully, your job is tough & you can have it. My temperment is not conducive to being a moderator. As Big Red told Eleanor, "You have my deepest sympathy." That's a tightrope that I would never attempt to cross.

As far as being being disappointed is concerned, that's not the case. Really, it's not that serious in the overall scheme of things. I'm disappointed to read that when I'm ready to retire, there may not be Social Security left for me. A fund that I've put my money into for so many years, may not be there when I'll need it. That disappoints & angers me. I'm disappointed to hear on the news today, that 15,000 4th graders may be in danger of being leftback. That disappoints & angers me. This forum is a welcome distraction from many of the real world unpleasantness. We can relive some very enjoyable memories here, gain some tidbit of knowledge & even, vent a bit. That isn't so bad, now is it?

Even though I agree with Isaiah & Rodmann on many occasions, I try to understand your position as well. I still believe that Isaiah & Rodmann bring something to the table & look forward to their posts. I only wish that it didn't get so personal between you guys, because you all have much to offer.

KevGo, please don't interpret my words to mean that you come across as a know it all. If you can correct erroneous information, brother, keep the corrections coming. Do you remember the thread where I stated that Ronnie Shannon had died because I had read it at AMG? Do you know how foolish I felt when I read that you had dinner with him recently? Kev, it's people like you who help keep the information tight. Although I was embarassed, I appreciated the correction. I don't want to be a minister of misinformation. If you didn't correct me when you have better knowledge, what good would you be to me? My ego is not so sensitive, that I would be offended by your corrections. In fact, you have made me realize that every "source" is not necessarily a RELIABLE source. Brother, if that's being a corrector, then feel free to stick your nose in my business when I'm wrong. For you to do otherwise, is to a diservice to all of us. I thought that I might get to meet you, Dyva & Chancellor at The Dells tribute. However, Paypal had some other ideas & I'm still waiting for my password. Dinner or Brunch sounds fine to me. As Vonnie lives not far from me, perhaps we could get her & Bobby E to join along. Hey Isaiah, NYC Diva & all New Yorkers, I'll be looking for you too! So Ms DyvaNaye, we'll have a seat for you too, so, you'll have to get well soon .

Vonnie, Medusa, I appreciate your comments. It's ladies such as yourself that help reign me in. I've only seen you post in a dignified manner & as such, I feel that it's only right to extended the same courtesy to you & all of the ladies here. I have a mother & I try to respond as if I were responding to someones mother. There's nothing wrong with respect, even when a persons' actions may not merit it. I'm not necessarily extending respect to them. I'm extending respect to those who don't really want to read such nonsense. Finally, I'm respecting myself, as I don't have to resort to that level, to get my point across.

I appreciate everyones kind words & I'm sure that we have more in common than not. You guys remind me of a family. There's disagreements, some arguments, in he end, there's more smiles than tears here. It'll be alright.

Respectfully

Julius (Juicefree20)

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:30 pm:

Hey Eli, I didn't see you there. What's up amigo?

By Eli & Paulie (68.236.53.71) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:40 pm:

Hi Juice,
I was down here holding down the fort cause I had some sessions going on over here that had to be done and I didnt want to let anyone down.

Us east coast NYC and Phillyites have got to set up a luncheon/dinner very son and its gona be fun, for sure.

Hopefully, I should be back in the Apple next weekend.

By Juicefree20 (68.161.24.249) on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:44 pm:

Bobby, I'll e-mail you the phone number. Man, that sounds like a great idea. But where would we do the dinner? Any ideas?

By mike s (195.93.34.12) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 08:12 am:

A few days ago, I wrote that this thread was getting sad mainly because of verbal explosions from certain parties.
However,in retrospect, I think it is great that people who actually worked with BG have risen to defend him so vigorously. It tells me what I hoped that he was by and large a fair and honest man who tried to run a pioneering business in very difficult circumstances and in a very competitive environment.
This is surely what this site is about. We don't want to hear sycophantic praise all the time but where possible the truth as people saw or experienced it. We may not agree with some of the language used to express views (that is another matter...

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:30 pm:

JuiceFree:
You may contact me anytime at kevingoins@juno.com

BTW - it was my employer who spoke to Ronnie Shannon and I visited his house last year - his neighbors confirmed that he is still with us. I'm gonna try to reach out to him again - I'll let you know what progresses.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sudi Kamau (66.117.198.35) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 04:45 pm:

I think the question is a legitimate "hook". It certainly spurred a lot of reaction, some of it intelligent. "Crook" is a strong word, but that's what makes the question evocative.

There's generally assumed, particularly among artists, to be a certain exploitative element to the music industry. Ron Murphy's comments are insightful in pointing out the different perspectives from which people evaluate the degree of exploitation that occurs in the industry.

I have worked in a number of industries (eg. pharmaceutical and banking) that are much stricter about conflicts of interest and overt ethical standards than the music industry, and I know that they are somewhat crooked by default. However, people do often form exaggerated opinions of the actual degree of crookedness due to lack of information.

There are people and phenomena in the music world that I hold in higher esteem than Motown, but I am not so slavishly worshipful of them that I will go off the deep end if someone dares to criticize them. I think that Americans in particular worship celebrity and commerce too much. I find that to be a harmful thing.

I wouldn't single out Berry Gordy over other record executives as a crook, and he might be less crooked than the rest. I don't know. But I think that an intelligent appreciation of the industry involves some consideration of issues like this - especially if people can discuss them in a mature and civil fashion.

By Common (209.2.55.171) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 05:32 pm:

KevGo: I'm game. Sounds like a nice way to spend a Sunday afternoon.


Peace!