By matt (208.130.56.167 - 208.130.56.167) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 09:31 pm:

if anyone can answer this, it's you guys: i've heard over the years that there were several (or more) j.j. tracks recorded at motown after the ric tic acquisition....have any ever surfaced? whether legitimately or on bootlegs? what's the story on this? is it true that someone (marvin?) thought he sounded too "marvin-like"?

thanks,
matt

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 09:42 pm:

Hi Matt

Nice questions, that I'm sure will lead to a long thread here ;o)

I assume you don't (yet?) have a copy of the recently-released Cellarful of Motown set..? Disc two, track 15 is the conclusive proof - if proof were needed - that JJ was a Motown recording artist. "(Tell Me) Ain't It The Truth" is the final revelation of what Paul Nixon describes as "one of Motown's best-kept secrets" - a very apt description.

Also, check this out:

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 09:50 pm:

I Had not heard of JJ until i discovered this forum, and i can honestly say that the track Ritchie speaks of is a gem.Get it now!!

By matt (208.130.56.167 - 208.130.56.167) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 10:00 pm:

thanks for the info. and damn, i would have gone to the fox that night just to see "the brigand of kandahar"!

matt

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 10:06 pm:

I should add, the clipping above was originally found on microfiche, and kindly supplied by Graham (acooolcat), so he deserves the thanks.

I just cleaned it up.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.228.133 - 165.247.228.133) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 10:37 pm:

I worked with J.J. both at Golden World and later, post-Motown when he was with Don Davis. We discussed that he had recorded some tracks for Motown. Now, here they are on the CELLAR FULL project. (Thanks HW)

Many of J.J.'s Don Davis material can be found on the STAX "Soul Soldiers" CD (CDSX 012) sold overseas only (that I am aware of) by ACE Records.

Many of the songs on project that were transfered here at Audio Graphic Services from the 1/4 inch masters to DAT. I can attest to the care that Rodger and I took to assure good quality. Musically, JJ was alwsys on top.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 11:00 pm:

Hi Ed

I have the "Soul Soldiers" set - and excellent it is too. (For anyone who doesn't know it, the CD also includes Darrell Banks, Jimmy Hughes and Major Lance, and I can highly recommend it.)

There is also a UK-released double CD, "J.J. Barnes - The Groovesville Masters" on Goldmine GSCD108, again recommended. I understand though, a couple of tracks are misidentified, and not J.J., but others here may have more info on this.

By Dave Fleming (62.253.128.6 - 62.253.128.6) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 01:01 am:

Does anybody know anything about this 45,
"Jimmy J Barnes-I think i`ve got a good chance-Organics",
i think it might be late 70s early 80s.
Cheers
Dave f...

By Davie G (213.18.222.34 - 213.18.222.34) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 11:20 am:

Dave F,

I mentioned that J J Barnes track on Organic in
reference to Hermon Weems ( try "Hermon Weems"
as a forum search ).

It's from 1975 - haven't heard it though.

If you have the record would you please post the writer / producer details for future reference

Thanks.

By Bradburger (172.182.104.244 - 172.182.104.244) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 04:04 pm:

Hi Ed

Talking of J.J,Darrell Banks & Don Davis please could you check My post Darrell Banks "Here To Stay" Sessions.

Got a few questions that maybe you could answer!

Cheers

Paul

By John Lester (213.1.131.177 - 213.1.131.177) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 11:32 am:

I was playing the Goldmine 2 cd set "JJ Barnes - The Groovesville Masters" and reminded myself that track 20 on side 1 is not listed (wonder if Goldmine ran out of paper. LOL)

Anyway, does anyone know the story behind that "added" song "The House That Jack Built". Was that released anywhere previously?

I didn't know it until I got this CD..

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.136.151 - 212.137.136.151) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 12:37 pm:

soul soldiers is now deleted ,and rising in price
finbar at folkstone ,had some copies a month ago
its a exellent cd ,for me personnaly ,as it had all the major lance stax releases on it

By John Lester (213.1.134.152 - 213.1.134.152) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 01:13 pm:

Brian

You've lost me......can you explain the connection to JJ Barnes please?

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 01:24 pm:

"Soul Soldiers" is/was a Stax compilation via Ace (tracks licensed from Fantasy in the US). It included tracks by JJ, alongside Darrell Bnks, Jimmy Hughes and Major Lance. JJ's and DB's were Don Davis productions. There is inevitably some overlap with Goldmine's sets.

By John Lester (213.1.134.152 - 213.1.134.152) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 02:31 pm:

Did it contain "The House That Jack Built". If not, where did that track come from....presumably Goldmine licenced if from somewhere.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 03:32 pm:

That track isn't on Ace's Soul Soldiers, or the US edition. All the Goldmine 'Groovesville' masters were, I believe, licensed direct from Don Davis. Martin Koppell was involved in the "co-ordination" of the deal, so if he's around, he's the guy to say for certain.

By john lester (213.1.132.178 - 213.1.132.178) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 09:09 pm:

But isn't Martin the Toronto end of Goldmine? oh well, tant pis!!

If anyone knows the lowdown, I would be interested to know.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 09:25 pm:

To be honest, I think it's a little tangled. I understand that Goldmine licensed direct from Don Davis, who previously licensed certain material to Stax, whose (post-1968) archives are now owned by Fantasy. Ace Records are the UK licensees for Fantasy/Stax.

I suspect that while Fantasy only have the rights to the tracks that were licensed by Mr Davis at the time, Goldmine have full access to what they call "the Groovesville Masters" - which include JJB, DB and a multitude of other artists and titles issued on various Detroit labels.

(I won't even touch on the titles that technically now should belong to Motown!)

By Flynny (213.1.132.14 - 213.1.132.14) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 05:18 pm:

"The house that Jack built" first appeared on a 12" maxi 45 (red vinyl too!!)in teh mid-80's on the Kool Kat label. Haven't got it to hand but I think all tracks were licensed from Popcorn Wylie.
Great tune!

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.7 - 195.219.7.7) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:24 pm:

IVE HEARD AN UNISSUED HOLE IN THE WALL BY J.J. ALTHOUGH A GOOD FEW YEARS AGO.IVE ALSO GOT A COPY OF REAL NICE BY JOHNNY BARNES(GOT A COUPLE OF SPINS AT THE TORCH)MEL(ANDTHENSOME)

By John Lester (213.1.128.74 - 213.1.128.74) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 08:21 pm:

Flynny

That Was Hole In The Wall on the Kool Cat 12" - I have that.......or maybe there was more than one release.

My one has Stewart Ames on too

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.74 - 195.219.7.74) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 08:26 pm:

STEWART AMES ,OH ANGELINA,MY FAVOURITE TRACK AT ONE TIME,NEVER MIND KING FOR A DAY,ANGELINA WAS THE BUISNESS.THE LYRICS,SUPERB,I ONLY WISH I KNEW A BIRD CALLED ANGELINA.MEL(ANDTHENSOME)

By Mark Speck (65.56.5.245 - 65.56.5.245) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 09:55 pm:

Fantasy DID issue a CD of J.J.'s Groovesville material. It's on their Stax imprint and is called "The Sound of Detroit".

It's the J.J. Barnes/Steve Mancha "Rare Stamps" LP combined with the Darrell Banks "Here to Stay" LP. For good measure, they throw in three bonus cuts: both sides of J.J.'s lone great Volt 45, "Snowflakes" and "Got to Get Rid of You" and Darrell's "I'm the One Who Loves You" (hard to believe that this wasn't originally on the album).
The catalogue number is Stax SCD-88010-2 and is still available--Fantasy never deletes ANYTHING!

As for J.J.'s tenure with Motown, he revealed in the interview he did with Soul Survivor magazine that it was his vocal resemblance to Marvin Gaye that killed the deal. Marvin was Berry's brother-in-law at the time, and he obviously didn't want to create family difficulty, so J.J. was dumped before he got a chance to record for Motown.

Best,

Mark

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 10:19 pm:

Mark

Actually, I never said Fantasy didn't issue any JJB :o) Also, it's the UK issue of Soul Soldiers from Ace that's apparently now deleted. The US edition is definitely still available for those across the pond.

BTW, according to J.J. in another interview, he recorded a great amount of material in his brief stay at Motown, but BG declined to release any of it, ALLEGEDLY after a quiet word from Marvin. Regarding the end of his contract, J.J. said, "I got the hell out as soon as I could!"

By John Lester (213.1.128.162 - 213.1.128.162) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 06:27 am:

Clearly some interviews have confused the position.

Needless to say, Cellarful of Motown's JJ Barnes track.....(Tell Me) Ain't It The Truth....with alternative lyrics to the song we know better as by Martha & The Vandellas "Show Me The Way" proved beyond reasonable doubt that JJ Barnes did record at the Motown studios and that his repetoire consisted of more than those Ric Tic recordings that we were once led to believe were all that existed. I personally consider that track to be the find of the year...am absolute classic and I know many others were as shocked as I was when they first heard it.

Well done Mr W.......keep on doing what you're doing.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 06:52 am:

I have a 1973 Blues and Soul interview with J.J., in which he claims he was in the studio "almost every day." Interestingly, he says, he "cut things with Richard Morris, Stevie Wonder - alone and with Sylvia Moy, Dean & Weatherspoon, Clarence Paul and Norman Whitfield."

(B&S 116)

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.45 - 195.219.7.45) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 08:47 pm:

HAS ANYBODY GOT ANY INFO ON J.J.s,AINT THAT ASKING FOR TROUBLE,WHICH AS FAR AS I CAN RECALL,WAS ONLY ON A HITSVILLE ACETATE.CHEERS,MEL(ANDTHENSOME).

By The Old Miner (195.93.50.173 - 195.93.50.173) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 09:41 pm:

As far as I recall "The House that Jack built" surfaced in the UK on the Contempo label in the late 60's. Rumour then suggested that it was a Motown recording. Of course, it could have come from the Wingate stable as a result of the second buy-out by Motown.

JJ certainly did record at Motown, no doubt H will entertain us with some more issues in due course.

Well, Everybody needs somebody to Love! But Ain't that asking for trouble? Hey - Don't bring me no bads news....

By John Lester (213.1.136.91 - 213.1.136.91) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 10:06 pm:

oh oh...who woke you up!!!

....and by the way, are you sure about Aint That Asking For Trouble......cos if you're wrong you will be asking for trouble!!!

LOL

By Tony B. (195.92.168.173 - 195.92.168.173) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 08:16 pm:

Hi everybody!

This is my first post, unless I made one before and forgot. My name's Tony B., I live in England and I'm an asylum seeker from the alt.music.soul newsgroup. My favourite music is 60s soul, ideally from Detroit and mostly non-Motown.

Re "The Groovesville Masters" double CD, am I right in saying that "A Hole In The Wall" and "The House That Jack Built" (CD 1 track 20) are the same song? Which is the 'correct' title, or isn't there one?

I wish Goldmine would treat the Groovesville recordings with a bit more care and respect. Amongst other things, three tunes aren't sung by J.J. at all. Two are by Steve Mancha, but who is singing on CD2 track 17?

Another minor quibble with Goldmine CDs is that the track timings are always wrong, most not even close to being right!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 08:32 pm:

Tony,
Welcome to the forum. All your comments are welcome here.