By biggray1 (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 05:53 pm:

Just come across a website that has a lot of rare unissued songs by a cast of Motown Stars that has blown me away!what about these, Carolyn Crawford-Until you came along,Marv Johnson-Never to late,Jimmy Ruffin-You've been leading me on,wow and there's more,to listen to these songs go to www.soulcitylimits.com click on the soundbytes and listen away,pure ear candy!! enjoy

By john Lester (213.1.128.152 - 213.1.128.152) on Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 06:42 pm:

Generally..

At the risk of upsetting a few people.....I am not happy about this. There is a right and wrong way for doing things....in my view, soulcitylimits is the wrong way.

What does occur to me is that there is still a lot of "speading the news" that is needed here.....if people were made more aware of what has and has not been issued, then incorrect statements like the above would not be made. As it happens, the Caroline Crawford track is currently playing on my CD player as I type this..from an official Cd in wonderful sound and with track annotations.

Biggray1 - Never Too Late is not the correct title and if you buy Cellarful of Motown, you would see that both Caroline and Jimmy Ruffin's are, in fact, issued.

By biggray1 (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 06:14 pm:

Hey point taken,my intent was to help fellow forum users to hear these great tracks!my apologies to anyone if i seemed pre-empt

By John Lester (213.1.128.77 - 213.1.128.77) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 07:59 pm:

My point is this...if everyone gets these songs off the Internet, there will be no more official releases.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

I am happy paying for the real thing these days. I have never downloaded any MP3 stuff off the Internet. I cannot be bothered. I have streamed the odd thing here and there, like today. One thing I must mention, although probably controversial, is that occasional pirate stuff raises its head and brings it into the public domain, where hopefully, those with enough money can release it the right way - if that makes any sense. In other words I disagree with pirate stuff, but how many records have been given a chance because of it?

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 10:06 pm:

Good point Carl, i can honestly say that the mp3 route is good way to search and find and be aware of new tracks. But for many people like ourselves there 'ain't nothing like the real thing' This is because the Legitimate product is the only thing that will have a long term value.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 10:16 pm:

OK, let's put this into context. The site listed above has short excerpts of records in RealAwful format. Only the terminally sad will consider these lo-fi snippets an adequate substitute for full-length versions in pristine digital sound.

By John Lester (213.122.201.135 - 213.122.201.135) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 06:51 am:

That has made me a happier man Ritchie.

I get uptight when I see something which I think might stop me from enjoying my passion in life,

By biggray1 (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 04:05 pm:

Wow my first message on this subject has caused rather a stir amongst you Guys,yes your all correct on this matter,i must of had a brain relapse posting such info!! well my view is this,i am not a great lover of the CD!! I have allways tried hard to buy the music i like on Vinyl format,obviously the unrealeased tracks that has been mentioned in the early messages can not be found on Vinyl!! or can it!! anyone have any info related to these releases. Graham.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Thursday, July 04, 2002 - 05:49 pm:

Sadly, today�s technology means that digital pirating goes on, whether the Internet or down the market guv! But, remember the sixties, here in the UK, where many pirate radio ships played Motown records for our delight whilst bobbing up and down on the North Sea? This was long before our radio chums at the BBC even knew what a jingle was and when they used to wear black bib and tucker whilst announcing their programmes. I would think that AM radio transmission and the famous Radio Luxembourg drift would mean the quality was/is as bad as the low bandwidth stream you hear, for example on the mentioned url above. Knowing what it takes to produce and market recorded music, I am still more than happy to put my hand in my pocket and pay the price. It keeps the industry going, employs people and gives them a living. I just hope that others do the same, which in turn supports these special releases and projects coming from the likes of Motown.

By HW (68.37.217.106 - 68.37.217.106) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 02:10 pm:

While the good point is made that people will go to lengths to find the music they want - and create a change in the way the music is sold - the difference there, Carl, is that the pirate radio stations were playing actual released recordings.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

Apart from Radio London (towards the very end), the sixties pirates didn't think it was necessary to pay any royalties for the records they played.

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 03:39 pm:

And..they were in international waters, where presumably legislation was weak in this area. Remember Radio Veronica (Ship) the Dutch pirate that was towed into Holland and then given permission to broadcast as one of the Dutch legal stations? They are now one of the biggest radio and television broadcasters in Europe. Not quite understanding all this as a kid growing up, many records I bought were a direct result of hearing them via the pirates on the North Sea. Agreed, they were playing legaly released records, at least. Do you remember Laser 558 in the 80's? They downloaded their 'records' off satellite straight on to the ship and were played off jingle carts!

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 04:02 pm:

Harry - I guess there are more pirate issues than I can imagine! But a thought just occured to me. The pirate ships, some of them at least, used to nick the PAMS jingles from the other ships that bought them from Dallas. When the Postmaster General outlawed the pirates, the BBC purchased these jingle remakes from PAMS direct themselves, with appropriate BBC identifications. The pirates had created a sound that the BBC envied. They were so good, they were closed down and copied by Radio 1, here in the UK. Just an interesting observation. As a youth, listening to pirate radio was magic. When it ended, things started to change in the UK , with BBC local radio and programming that would have the likes of the presenter trying to sell Mrs Smith's washing machine for a fiver to the next caller, who also had a tin of baked beans for sale!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 05:33 pm:

The story of offshore radio in Britain is a fascinating one but long, and probably veering rather too far off-topic as regards this Forum. The interesting point is though, that the British government of the time were virtually powerless to put an end to their activities under the existing legislation.

In a move that the Tories would have been proud of, Harold Wilson's Labour government simply introduced new laws which made the pirates on-air activities illegal. The "Marine etc., Broadcasting (Offences) Bill" was published on July 2nd, 1966, and the pirates' days were numbered. Interestingly, the BBC made a proposal to the Post Office shortly afterwards, offering tentative plans for a "continuous entertainment programme" to be broadcast on 247 metres in the medium wave band.

For a short time, some of the soon-to-be-outlawed broadcasters held on to the belief that the government would bow to public pressure and grant the better stations licences to broadcast on land. (Phillip Birch of Radio London believed this might happen.) The result was of course, the pirates were outlawed and most ceased operations as soon as their American backers pulled out their investment. In September 1967, the BBC launched Radio One as the Government-approved substitute, though legal Commercial Radio was still almost ten years away.

By keith hughes (195.92.67.74 - 195.92.67.74) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 06:26 pm:

back at the thread ... Harry, a while back in Another Place we discussed the licensed & wholly legit reissue of "The Fabulous Miracles" on vinyl by a small (non-Motown) company a few years ago ... how come there isn't more of this sort of thing? Would it be OK for an independent to reissue something on CD - under license, of course? And what about unreleased material - could that ever be released independently but under license?

Point is of course that there is a physical limit to the amount of material Universal can produce and market.

I would love to know how the finances worked out on that Fabulous Miracles LP. (I'm not asking, of course - that's your and their business.) But if Universal got a reasonable return, and the indie got some too ...

Maybe the answer to this question is the reason it doesn't happen more.

Keith

By biggray1 (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 11:55 am:

Has mentioned in previous message about collecting vinyl only i have just found in my collection a lp Tamla Motown=Never released before masters #WL 72425,The track listings as follows.
Mary Wells,The day will come.
D Ross&supremes,The tears.
Temps,Mind over matter.
Marvelettes,Knock on my door.
Smokey&miracles,I'm stuck on you.
Jr Walker,Break it up.
Stevie Wndr,Dont you feel it.
Martha&Vandellas,Cant break the habit.
Four Tops,I cant escape your memory.
Stevie Wndr,Lois.
D Ross&suprms,Stay in my lonely arms.
Temps,Tearstained Letter.
Some awesome recordings here,anyone add any other Lp track listings!!

By HW (65.116.80.17 - 65.116.80.17) on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 08:35 pm:

Vinyl licensing is simple and generally done with one of the few companies that press records nowadays and has a defined market. It's not considered competition because the run is small. CDs are another matter.

By Keith Herschell - London (195.92.198.73 - 195.92.198.73) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 11:48 am:

Can I add my 2 pence worth on a couple of these topics.
With regard to John Lesters' posting, I have visited the soulcitylimits site and listened to some of the tracks that I was not familiar with. As far as I am concerened these serve as an apitizer for the real thing (vinyl or CD). The point is, without listening to them from this site I would have been unaware of them. As an example,having been a soul fan for 35 years, I know that there will be many obscure tracks that I don't know, but I was fairly sure that I would know all the tracks by the famous artists. I spotted two tracks by Eddie holland that were unfamiliar. "I'm on the outside looking in" was the first. How did such a superb recording ever escape me - it is wonderful. The next was his version of "Take me in your arms, rock me a little while", with the same backing track as the Kim Weston version. Whilst the vocal is maybe not as good as Kims', it is a nice alternative. Was it ever issued? So come on you Motown compilers, remove your digit and give us some more. And what about Stevie Wonders' original version of "Angel Baby", or his superior version of "I want my baby back" (sorry Edwin) or Four Tops "Can't seem to get you out of my mind" or David Ruffins' "You can come right back to me" or..............
With regard to biggrays' posting. Whilst I agree that there is something magical in that little seven inches of vinyl, I love the enhanced sound that comes with the CD. For example, I recently acquired a Brenda Holloway CD. Upon playing
"Just look what You've done" which until then I only knew from the 45, I was astounded at the brilliance of the arrangement, especially the complexity of the horn parts, none of which is apparent from single, which just merges all of these together.
PS Hello to John, Carl and others I met at the London book signing by Dennis Coffey. I was the photographer.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 01:29 pm:

Hi Keith! Yes, that was a good evening with Dennis and the Bee Cool book crowd. Infact, you took the photo of us that is posted on the Dennis Coffey thread, right here on Soulfuldetroit. Your 2 pence worth was worth it, despite inflation! It is an interesting subject to say the least. Through this web site alone, my knowledge has increased tremendously over the last 5 months and I am grateful to purchase new products as a result. And can you beleive this, the quality of my life has improved as well!! I even know how to hold a camera now Keith - ha ha!!

By Soultwine (195.93.50.176 - 195.93.50.176) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 05:02 pm:

Hi Keith
I like cd's and they have their place but when i compare the sound from my Marvelettes "Too Many
fish in the sea" cd track (on their "deliver the singles" double) to my Tamla 45 "Two many fish in the sea" (yes,it has that typo error!) i know which i prefer..its so LOUD and exciting compared to the cd track..and, is it my imagination ...is the 45 slightly faster?.
Phil

By HW (68.37.217.106 - 68.37.217.106) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 06:31 pm:

compare your 45 to the sound of the CD Marvelettes 'Ultimate Collection' and tell me what you think...

By Bradburger (80.40.93.200 - 80.40.93.200) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 07:05 pm:

I never got the Marvelettes 'Ultimate Collection' but do have the 'Deliver' set. The CD track sounds a whole lot better than my dads well played 45 as far as I can recall!

I always thought that Bill Inglot & Dan Hersch did a great job an remastering those early Motown Master series compilations.

Harry, does the 'Ultimate Collection' CD sound better? I only have the Supremes CD in that series (and it sounds great) but have never compared any of the tracks that were on the 'Hitsville USA' box set (single mixes too) to those on the Supremes 'Ultimate Series'.

Cheers

Paul

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101 - 136.1.1.101) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 07:40 pm:

Personally, I think Inglot/Hersch mastered "Deliver" collection sounds pretty good. I have not heard the Suha Gur mastered "Ultimate Collection", though.

Inglot did wonders as far as getting the catalog in order, finding the best tapes and that kind of stuff. The Hitsville USA box was a case of really going above and beyond the call to do things right.

Harry is continuing to do more wonders still. I especially like that they are keeping the original mono single mixes in circulation (via the Ultimate Collection series) in addition to the stereo stuff. A lot of people who don't understand complain about the mono releases, but those of us who know better truly appreciate it.

By LeVan45789 (166.107.74.81 - 166.107.74.81) on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 09:56 pm:

The Marvelettes Ultimate Collection does have a better sound to me but then again I'm a big Marvelette fan. The songs are bright and in good old mono!!

By Bradburger (172.181.124.206 - 172.181.124.206) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 10:15 am:

I agree with you Livonia.

The Hitsvile USA box set the precedent for all future Motown releases. It is still the definitive Motown collection in my view and one I'd always recommend.

And thanks to Harry and all those invloved in the latest batch of reissues, that precedent has been kept.

Long may it continue.

Cheers

Paul

By HW (68.37.217.106 - 68.37.217.106) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 01:06 pm:

All I can say is that a major part of the process in piecing together the Ultimate Collection series was having on hand all of an artist's original 45s and comparing them to master tapes. That meant not only working extra carefully to re-create the 7-inchers' original excitement, but in some cases also doing speed correction and other adjustments. That happened more than we expected with the Supremes.

Inglot's research on the Hitsville box and his further vault crawls with Cary Mansfield for the Master Series starting 10 years ago set the tone for what followed with Amy Herot and myself, etc.

By bradburger@tiscali.co.uk (172.183.234.147 - 172.183.234.147) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 02:27 pm:

Thanks for the info Harry.

Maybe you could take us through whats involved in producing a reissue from inital concept through tape reserch/remastering etc to the final product.

I always find that sort of info interesting.

Cheers

Paul

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.153 - 136.2.1.153) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

Because of the different running times, I was trying to figure out if there were any editorial differences between the longer running alternate stereo mix of the Supremes' "You Keep Me Hanging On" from the recent "Anthology" and the previously issued mono and stereo mixes. I figured that there would be a longer fade or something, but it was actually a slightly shorter fade on the alternate mix versus the mono single. It never occured to me to sync them up and check the speed until Harry's post.

BTW, if you like Motown bass, the "Anthology" alternate YCMHO mix is a good listen. The bass line is much more prominent than on other mixes. I still prefer the original, but the alternate is a nice supplement to it, particularly if you like to deconstruct the arrangements and mixes.

Regards,

Ken

By HW (12.110.192.128 - 12.110.192.128) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 05:59 pm:

if you like bass, check the new Anthology mix of Love Is Like An Itchin' In My Heart...

as far as a thread on reissues, I defer for now. Too long to type. I'd love one of these days to do that in a public 'seminar'-type forum with Q&A and if someone wants to transcribe and post it, great.

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.153 - 136.2.1.153) on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 06:02 pm:

I meant YKMHO, of course. I even mis-spell my abbreviations.

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 08:24 pm:

One last take on the pirating thing - a great many of the artist's have not been paid anyway by the labels...so you are not ripping off the artist when you pirate something like the Dynamic Superiors (by "pirate" I mean burning the album and putting it on the net). Which brings me to my point: Why isn't their material available?

By keith hughes (195.92.67.74 - 195.92.67.74) on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 10:46 pm:

Harry, let me know privately in advance when you book Shea Stadium for the seminar, it's likely to be sold out when we poor Brits get to hear about it ... I guess it won't be long till we're all set up with webcams and audio & can do it "virtually" ...

I agree that the Hitsville USA box is the definitive set, to be recommended to anyone who has little or no Motown. But the bold trend set by Gordon Frewin in his Britannia set - always using stereo unless the mix differed significantly from the hit mono version - opened my eyes and ears in a big way. It's rare that a stereo mix will have more impact than the mono version, but when you know the track well, it can be really sensational to hear it stereo - there's more there than you ever dreamed of.

Particular mention MUST go to the stereo Heat Wave on the recent Martha set. That is a STUNNER, Harry. Keep it up!

By Suslowicz (12.227.35.89 - 12.227.35.89) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:05 am:

I remember when Mick's YTF site featured info about the Britannia set. However, I also remember that it was already unattainable(out of print??) when I inquired about it. Is that still the case?

By Bradburger (172.183.47.210 - 172.183.47.210) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 03:08 am:

I think it works both ways round.

When you've been used to a mono mix it can be revealing to hear the stereo version and when you've been used to the stereo mix it can be nice to hear the mono.

But with the Motown vinyl reissues and the early CD's the trend was to generally use the stereo mixes in preference to the mono's. And when they did use the mono's they were often re-channeled psuedo stereo.

So when Hitsville USA came out it was refreshing to hear the original singles mixes (many for the first time on CD) remastered from the best tapes in top class sound.

Btw, regarding those early CD reissues, I read in some music magazine a while back that Motown would sometimes use mint condition L.P's instead of master tapes - maybe Harry or someone can confirm if this really was the case.

Cheers

Paul

By HW (68.37.217.106 - 68.37.217.106) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 03:18 am:

I wasn't around when Motown first did CD reissues, I was at another company, so I can't say they used vinyl to make certain CDs. But I highly doubt it. They, like every record company did then, manufactured CDs from the EQ production copy - the same tape used to make the vinyl erlease originally. As years went by it became more of a given that reissue producers would trace masters back a little further.

By John Lester (213.1.131.64 - 213.1.131.64) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 07:49 am:

My opinion is that vinyl WAS used. Some of the Motown Yesteryear series even have the hiss you get on many original US 45's! Not only that, album mixes were used when they should have used the 45 mixes...listen to Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart on the Yesteryear series for example. Many thought, including myself, that some tracks were very poorly mastered. For my own part, I felt that the Yesteryear series was just not given the attention that it deserved.

I think HW is grossly underestimating his contribution to making the Motown reissues of late something of a revelelation considering what us Motown fans have been served up with previously. Sometimes, Harry you HAVE to step back and take SOME credit for what you've done for us all. Mr Gordy must be real proud of you.

By keith hughes (195.92.67.74 - 195.92.67.74) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 08:34 pm:

Sorry, I dont know if the Britannia set is still obtainable. What I remember is that you had to join a "club" to get them - they weren't available in the shops.

Agree with JL that you COULD hear the hiss on those early reissue CDs. But I THINK that very early on Motown produced CD versions of stuff now unobtainable - eg the "Package of 16 great hits" series in STEREO. I didn't buy any, cos I didn't have a CD player then, but have heard some tapes - Kim's "Just loving you" in stereo is a standout memory - think that was on the Britannia set too(to lazy to get up & walk across the room to check).

And YES, Harry (and John), we've come a LONG LONG WAY since then. Cary Mansfield certainly deserves credit, but current powers-that-be deserve even more.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 08:49 pm:

There sure is "hiss" on those early CDs, but I would be highly surprised (not to mention puzzled) if they were mastered from vinyl, given the fact that the quarter inch masters were obviously still available at the time. I'm sure that transferring from vinyl would have been more of a task than simply digitising the existing masters. I suspect that the "hiss" may be direct from the analog tapes, which would have been possibly a couple of generations down from the multi-track session masters. Given the fact that digital mastering was in its infancy, digital REmastering was still an unexplored country.

BTW, I have the stereo vinyl of the first "Package of Big Hits" and a couple of the tracks are definitely different versions to the mono 45s. They are not just different mixes, but different recordings completely. E.G. there's a completely different version of the Contours' "Do You Love Me"...

(sadly inferior to the mono original - but interesting!)

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.33 - 136.1.1.33) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 09:04 pm:

To be fair, when you consider the sheer amount of material that John Matousek et al mastered for CD over a short period of time during which engineers were still just sort of figuring out mastering for CD and companies were still sorting out which tapes should be pulled and where they were located, it's not all that surprising that the early Motown CDs sounded less than perfect.

BTW, you WANT to hear some hiss on the releases, but you want it to sound natural like on the master tape. The annoying hiss is the variety you get when excessive mid to high frequency eq is appiled in an attempt to recover high end lost to tape generations/aggressive filtering/etc. or worse, an attempt to make something sound "brighter" or "airier".

A lot of recordings have been ruined by the overuse of digital filtering to get rid of even the natural hiss that is on the master tape. Thankfully, this is not the case with recent Motown CDs.

Regards,
Ken

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 09:15 pm:

Ken

Well said! I posted here quite a while ago my reservations about "CEDAR" type restoration - which all-too-often removes the hiss, and much of the natural ambience of the recording into the bargain. I try to avoid it as much as possible when I'm remastering.

Also, my comments above were not criticisms - simply observations. We have come along in leaps and bounds since those early days, and the latest Motown reissues have been nothing less than amazing. in some cases, I've felt almost as if I was hearing the recordings for the first time.

And John - I disagree with you. Harry should not step back...


step FORWARD and take a bow!

By Bradburger (172.186.64.247 - 172.186.64.247) on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 12:10 am:

Ken

I agree with what you say about the early days of CD's. I think when you look at the early reissue CD's from all the record company's they left a lot to be desired when you compare them with whats available today.

But it was after all a new format and I think they thought that the reissuing their back catalogue via this format was a great idea and were quick to jump on the band waggon.

Anyway, most people thought they sounded great compared to their old vinyl copies regardless of what the remastering was like or what tapes were used.

But reissues have come on leaps and bounds since those early days and a lot of lessons have been learned by engineers when it comes to remastering and the record labels when it comes to packaging and marketing their back catalogue.

I think we are very lucky that today we have some really top notch reissues that are put together with the detailed care and attention that they deserve.

Harry, do indeed step forward (or back!) and take a bow!

Cheers

Paul