By Gabriele (212.171.155.55 - 212.171.155.55) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 03:20 pm:

I read on many sources that the"Ain't too proud to beg" by the Temptations guitar parts was playing by Joe Messina but I'm really sure just listening that song I love a lot it was Robert White.
I am a great Motown fan and I could feel there the Robert White's style and groove.
Can anyone confirms or not?

Touch/Gabriele

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 06:57 pm:

Welcome to the forum Gabriele.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 07:01 pm:

This is a subject that is close to my heart.
According to most sources Joe Messina usually played the backbeat. Robert White usually played the rythym parts. There is a solo guitar part in there, this maybe Joe Messina as he usually played the low notes on the guitar by sight reading. Or Eddie Willis could been playing also.
I have tried to identify Eddie,Joe,and Robert's individual Sound and style on the Guitar for some time,but find it a confusing as it has been said they would swap roles occasionaly.
One thing is for certain, between them they created a great sound, that was distinctive and instantly recognisable.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 07:13 pm:

Maybe i am pushing my luck,but here goes.
I understand that Joe Messina has in past posted to this forum. I wonder If anyone could ask him to contribute what he knows about this topic. His contribution would be greatly appreciated.

By Gabriele (212.171.155.24 - 212.171.155.24) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 07:22 pm:

Thanks,David I am glad to be in this forum.
I was thinking about Robert White on "Ain't too proud to beg" also because I think-that's my personal opinion-Joe Messina maybe was more a really good sight reader...His doubling the Jamerson's bass lines is stunning,they were not easy!Maybe the White & Willis work was more instinctive.

Touch/Gabriele

By Gabriele (212.171.155.24 - 212.171.155.24) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 07:34 pm:

Anyway that's cool and I like a lot this kind of clean guitar sound(I wonder if they used SuperReverb Fender amplifiers).You could often listen it in many Motown recordings.I am fascinated by the way they can create strong and powerful rhythms and grooves with this tasteful simplicity...I can feel strong roots in the blues and jazz.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 08:16 pm:

I'll e-mail Joe and see what I can find out.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 09:13 pm:

Thanks Ralph!!
Gabriele. They played Guitars straight into the Studio board. I discussed this with DENNIS COFFEY on THE FUNK BROTHERS part of this Forum. If you have'nt looked already, take a look there is some excellent info on the various Funk Brothers.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 09:34 pm:

Soulboy,
I just received an e-mail from Joe Messina.
He couldn't remember what part he was playing on the song but told me his standard line here is " If you like it, it's me ".

By harryweinger (68.37.216.64 - 68.37.216.64) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 01:38 am:

Only Jamerson's (or Babbit's) bass was sent direct to the board. The guitars were generally pre-mixed into one track on the eight-track sessions, especially during this era (1966). Perhaps some of the engineers can say differently for other sessions.

By Gabriele (212.171.164.239 - 212.171.164.239) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 09:06 am:

Interesting!Really good,thank you guys!
Gabriele

By Gabriele (212.171.164.239 - 212.171.164.239) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 09:20 am:

According White-Willis-Messina was in a lot of tracks,does Cornelius Grant for the Tempts and Marv Tarplin for Smokey Robinson played in studio?
I read they played on stage but Grant was on "I'm losing you" from "A lot of soul" Tempts album.

Another interesting topic is about the key of the songs.I wonder if it was a Funk Brothers idea to change key in the last verse or in the finale of many song like "My girl","Baby Love","My Cherie Amour"(from C to C# all 3),"Ask any girl" and "Chained" to name a few.No matter what composer or producer the Brothers used a lot to play this kind of thing...

Gabriele

By harryweinger (68.37.216.64 - 68.37.216.64) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 11:55 am:

Cornelius Grant played guitar on studio sessions where he wrote the song, with one or two exceptions I can't recall right now. Perhaps we should get 'Corn' on this forum. I'll ask him.

My thought on the key change: the arrangers. Any Funks wish to respond?

By Eli (152.163.207.213 - 152.163.207.213) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 01:24 pm:

I believe that Cornelius played on Losing You as he was co-writer and came up with that classic guitar riff which chordally speaking was a take on (I Wanna )Testify

By Eli (152.163.207.213 - 152.163.207.213) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 01:33 pm:

Incidentally, The Tempts had white guitarist named Billy Neale from the South Jersey area who played with them from the early to mid seventies. He was especially close with Paul and was distraught when he died.
Soon after he joined us in Philly for all of the Thom Bell sessions which featured Babbitt and Andrew. He was also in the band on the tv show The Gong Show. His nickname was the milkman, as he had that "wholesome aw shucks" kind of look indigenous to a fifties Ozzie and Harriet kind of tv show!! I don't think that he favoured that moniker, though!!!

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 05:02 pm:

Hey Ralph

Tell Joe we like it very much,not just "ain't too proud" But all the other records as well. The guitarists at Hitsvile were a very talented bunch You can hear that by listening closely to records. They churned out quite innovative funky riffs and rythyms that were influencial for years after. It's kind of sad they are sometimes overlooked in comparison to the drummers and bass players, but Joe,Eddie,Dennis and Robert you ARE appreciated very much!

By Dennis Coffey (152.163.206.213 - 152.163.206.213) on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 10:57 pm:

Thanks Soulboy. I am over here in London telling my story and mentioning the other guys as well. They are all featured in my book.

Dennis Coffey

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 02:53 pm:

I'd like to have met you in person Dennis, But unfornunately for me it's a of life High stess,and more work than i handle at the moment. Such is life in the auto industry. However i shall be reading your book, and Keeping up to date with forum. I dare say the other guy's will look after you in London. Good luck and take care

SOULBOY