By Glenn (66.73.185.19 - 66.73.185.19) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:36 am: |
f:smotown-1
By glenn (66.73.185.19 - 66.73.185.19) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:39 am: |
f: motown-5.jpg
By glenn (66.73.185.19 - 66.73.185.19) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:41 am: |
By glenn (66.73.185.19 - 66.73.185.19) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:42 am: |
f: motown-7.jpg
By glenn (66.73.185.19 - 66.73.185.19) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:47 am: |
By glenn (66.73.185.19 - 66.73.185.19) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:49 am: |
Here are some. I almost passed these by years ago - glad i didn't.
glenn
By glenn (66.73.185.19 - 66.73.185.19) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 03:54 am: |
By John Lester (213.1.129.204 - 213.1.129.204) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 05:59 am: |
Hmmm
Intereesting, very interesting....particulary Some Things Will Never Get Used To..as it doesn't have a DM reference like the majority of 45's from that time......if you look at the US 45, it refers to a date!!
Also, those slips say Duplicate Master and not Detroit Master..hmmmmm
Thanks for those Glenn...I am off to Manchester for the Originals but I need to have a nother look at those.....If You should Walk Away on the Supremes remains unissued as do many of the tracks noted on the earlier images
By harryweinger (68.37.250.207 - 68.37.250.207) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 03:57 pm: |
JL - 'DM' stands for 'Duplicate Master' Not 'Detroit Master'
Perhaps Glen can elaborate on what these scanned images are.
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 04:49 pm: |
Those are the paperwork that accompanied tapes.
The first kind were filled out by the engineer who mixed the tape.
The second are from the disk room because an acetate had been made from the tape. The fact that the acetate was made from a 7.5 ips tape indicates that this tape was some kind of demo and also suggests that it was intended for Berry Gordy to hear because he preferred disks to tapes.
By glenn (66.73.187.177 - 66.73.187.177) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 11:39 pm: |
c: motown-7xxx.jpg
By glenn (66.73.187.177 - 66.73.187.177) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 11:48 pm: |
There were many more.......... These came from a lady that worked at motown. I went to a yard sale & asked about records. The lady said she didn't have records but had some tapes that she wasn't able to move. She said these were throw aways or to be taped over. Must have been about 50 or so. What a great find.
Glenn
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 11:56 pm: |
Does that mean you have the tapes?
(Difficult to type this without drooling onto the keyboard!)
By glenn (66.73.187.177 - 66.73.187.177) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 12:37 am: |
YES!!!
By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.39 - 165.121.215.39) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 01:16 am: |
Glenn,
The "Some things you never get used to" tune may have been a Golden World Session from the purchase of GW by Berry. Or perhaps, re-recorded by Motown as they probably had the publishing. If it was a big orchestrated thing it probably was the GW session...The original was a 4 track 1/2 inch master if I remember correctly. It also may have been done on that brown RCA stock that we had at GW. Can you hear either Bob or me on the slate? (I was there but I can't remember if Bob or I did that session.) It was released as an instrumental on Ric Tic I believe. Bob DeOrleans, can you help me on this? Do you remember anything to help Glenn?
By glenn (66.73.182.28 - 66.73.182.28) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:18 am: |
By glenn (66.73.182.28 - 66.73.182.28) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:21 am: |
Here are a few more. They have been sitting in my basement for years. Thought there would be some interest. Some I never heard before. Must be 200-300 songs!.
Glenn
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 08:59 am: |
Glenn...
WOW! I can see a little irony here. We're all on tenterhooks, awaiting the imminent arrival of "Cellarful of Motown" - and you have your own!
Silly, but obvious question - have you played them?
BTW, I'm feling what we in England call "gobsmacked"!
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 02:29 pm: |
What was this woman's name?
By Ian W (213.122.171.86 - 213.122.171.86) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 09:53 pm: |
And has she got any more?
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:12 pm: |
I suspect that Bob is more concerned to know how they "escaped". Strictly speaking, Hounddog Harry should be assigned to this case.
By glenn (66.73.186.120 - 66.73.186.120) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:14 pm: |
the lady's name was betty ocha (at the time when she worked at motown). she since married and moved. lived 10 minutes from my home!
glenn
By glenn (66.73.186.120 - 66.73.186.120) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:18 pm: |
She was moving and these were in a garbage bag and probably would have been tossed out in the move. She said i could tape over these if i wanted to tape other songs! I really think the value and importance is realized today and not some 10 or so years ago.
glenn
By John Lester (213.1.128.214 - 213.1.128.214) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:32 pm: |
Bloody hell
Betty Ocha worked in the A&R department...I have some information that mentions her on the album project for the San Remo Strings "Swing" album in April 1968.
Wow
By john Lester (213.1.128.214 - 213.1.128.214) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:40 pm: |
What you gonna do with them Glenn.....PLEASE DONT TAPE OVER THEM!!
Keep scanning them....what else is there?
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 10:56 pm: |
Oh, the wonders of Detroit!
...here in England, all you find in our garbage bags is garbage.
By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 11:20 pm: |
Betty Ocha ( prounouned...Oh-Shay ) was the head of A&R under Harry Balk. She replaced Eddie Holland who was the A&R head until HDH split from Motown. She was married to a High School sports coach at that time. How she would come to have these out-takes and other material in her personal belongings is rather strange.
By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.228.231 - 165.247.228.231) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 12:21 am: |
Hello Ralph,
I spoke to some of the Funks and Clay and they said that there we tapes all over the floor at the Donivan Bldg. When I was at GW after the move out there were tape all over up in the loft area!!! I would not be surprised if alot of that stuff was just tossed as junk or sold as used tape to junk dealers!!! I picked up two rolls of unused 1 inch 202 at GW when I was over there with a real estate guy on one occasion with someone who was looking at it as a cable TV facility. That's when I got the last pictures. The echo chamber was still intact at that time in the west garage also. There were tapes all over that area as well along with other junk. That must of been one hell of a move out!!!
(I still refuse to call it Motown Studio B!!!)
Pax,
Ed
By glenn (66.73.191.168 - 66.73.191.168) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:14 am: |
OK here's more.
I must say again that the value was probably zero and if she thought they were valuable, it would not have been me buying them. She was sincere, honest and probably got them out of the garbage and taped over some. I spoke with Ralph about these and he seemed interested. I went down in my basement and cut a sample cd from some of the tracks to send to Ralph. Most of the supremes have a beep about every 10 seconds but a lot of the others don't. Mickey Denton, Valarie Simpson, Detroit Wheels Tracks and then a vocal. Didn't hear all but there was a live tape of the Vandellas with a different Jimmy Mack I have never heard - kind of nice! Lots more! I'll keep you posted.
Glenn
By glenn (66.73.191.168 - 66.73.191.168) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:26 am: |
Sorry, it was Harry - Not Ralph I spoke with. The lady that sold me these should not get in trouble. The value was ZERO when I bought these. Times have made these to have some value just like the baseball cards you threw out or the new coin that was spent 40 years ago. I don't want to get anyone in trouble or debate what should have been. It should not be looked upon that way or I just won't respond to anything.
Glenn
By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:37 am: |
Glenn,
I wasn't infering that Ms. Ocha did anything wrong. It just seemed a little strange to me that she would have that many tapes at home. She may have been doing some home evaluation of certain things. I knew Betty for several years and I know she was impeccably honest.It just struck me as a little odd is all.
By glenn (66.73.191.168 - 66.73.191.168) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:47 am: |
Had she not had these at home, i'm sure that they would be in 'Motown Heaven' Just was meant to be.
glenn
By Eric (67.25.208.27 - 67.25.208.27) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 03:16 am: |
I just looked at these tapes the other day with my Dad and I think there was a note on one of the boxes that said, Attention: Betty Ocha and Berry Gordy. Let me tell you a little something about my Dad; he does'nt need the loot, money, or any kind of publicity this would generate. The tapes have been sitting in a box for years and I'm SURE his intentions would be for the tapes to get in the right hands to be released. These kind of "rough" diamonds exist from:Sun Records, Led Zep, and etc. Usually they find a way to be appreciated by music fans and sometimes the artists who created the "Art".
I can't remember exactly when the tapes were acquired but I do remember saying, "What In The @#$%?" It's usually a "Great" day to find some cool records at a Sale, Junk Shop, and even a few on the curb in the trash. The tapes were an extreme exception to be found right in our own neighborhood!!!
By glenn (66.73.191.168 - 66.73.191.168) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 03:24 am: |
More Stuff.
Was listening to the cd I just made. There is a live version of "I will follow you" by the Martha & the Vandellas (just says Vandellas on the demo sheet). Has this ever been in any album?
Glenn
By John Lester (213.1.131.63 - 213.1.131.63) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 07:07 am: |
I'll Follow You (which was on the Watchout album) was not issued commercially as a live track.
Glenn.......you are doing the right thing by contacting Harry. I am sure that if there is a chance for us ALL to get to hear these songs in their current format, Harry will find a way. (HW - PLEASE FIND A WAY)
Glenn - is there anything by the Velvelettes there....and if you say there is a live album, I am gonna go straight out and buy an airplane ticket to your home!!!
Your wonderful news is what us lot over here have been expecting.......we all knew that there must be more stuff in Detroit that never made it to the UK..you have confirmed it.
Keep talking Glenn....
By Carl Dixon London (212.211.108.26 - 212.211.108.26) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 07:17 am: |
This is a great thread - sensational stuff. We have to thank the people who retain what seems like 'throwaway' stuff at the time, to have it revered many years later. It is part of the history of Motown and we are privileged to hear about it on SoulfulDetroit. Well done Betty and Glenn. It should be made into a CD, sold as 'Motown Reel to Reel vol1' and proceeds to go to The Motown Museum - or something like that.
By John Lester (213.122.202.169 - 213.122.202.169) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 11:46 am: |
I agree...even though some of the recordings are available...its the artwork, the feel of the tape boxes, knowing who was working on the tracks, all that stuff....
The day I picked up a tape and saw that Hank Cosby had probably held that box was one of the most memorable moments of my life. Some people may think I need to go and get a life...and maybe they are right..but it keeps me happy!!
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 12:41 pm: |
John - from a different set of circumstances, I know exactly where you're coming from!
Not Soul-related, but remind me to tell you about the Lennon/Beatles master tapes one day.
By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 01:03 pm: |
Agreed John - You have got a life. If people do not like it - tough. It is not their concern. I think we have good lives considering our musical tastes and what we do with them. For example, last Saturday we were up early and went to North London to watch England play football(funny, I thought they were in Japan), followed by a wonderful barby in the garden with about 25 degrees C,the sun raging and on the evening a Motown concert where I was in heaven. Of course, for me, the iceing on the cake was the concert, but those other things complimented it. Football does not really enter my equation normally, but with the Queens Jubilee celebrations here as well, what a great atmosphere this last holiday period.I call that living and what you did going to Manchester, that's a great life! So what I am really saying Glenn is, pop those tapes in the post for me now and I will look after them. My rates are very cheap!
I agree, this story is one of the best so far. Only if it was me, we all say under our breath. What a wonderful catch and no bait. Maybe I should 'wade in the water' a little more.
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 01:10 pm: |
John
I think more than a few folks would be happy to walk a mile in YOUR shoes... (not too sure about the accountancy part, though!)
By John Lester (213.122.202.169 - 213.122.202.169) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 01:17 pm: |
I am not sure about the accountancy myself but at least my firm has an office in Manchester and I get to go up there every now and then
Tee hee.
You know I still get a kick out of going into Beatin Rhythm and looking through the Motown 45 box...even though I dont need to....I can spend ages just flicking through...again and again
By John Lester (213.1.134.214 - 213.1.134.214) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:07 pm: |
Ed
I think you are thinking of Juanita Williams and her Van McCoy composed song of "Some Things You Never Get Used To". I suspect this song is probably the Ashford and Simpson song issued on the Diana Ross and the Supremes which was worked on in about May 1968.
Why do you refuse to call the Golden World complex, studio "B"...I thought it was only a reference.
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:38 pm: |
Re the "other" Some Things... there's also a nice cut by Irma Thomas.
By John Lester (213.1.134.11 - 213.1.134.11) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 04:05 pm: |
RALPH>>CAN WE HAVE A NEW THREAD PLEASE>>
By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 04:42 pm: |
Those 7.5s were made for producers to study. They would have been ordered through her and for some reason never picked up by the producer. I suspect she took them home rather than just throwing them out when she cleaned out her office.
By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 05:49 pm: |
John,
What thread would you like? Ask and ye shall receive.
By John Lester (213.122.202.132 - 213.122.202.132) on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 05:56 pm: |
Well...I think the Glenns Motown tapes 2 might be a good idea..
I want to just say one more thing about Betty Ocha
Does anybody have the album by Martha & the Vandellas.....called Dance Party.
Can someone tell me which person is credited with writing the liner notes. (tee hee!!)
By ErikT.O. (64.228.108.101 - 64.228.108.101) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:42 am: |
Hey guys, as a long time tape-head & collector of live & rare or unreleased music, I love this thread! I can dig the 'get a life' aspect too, my girlfriend thinks it's about as hip as a Star Trek convention (no offense to Trekkies either, ha ha!) /Erik
PS - Any more live stuff on you're remarkable find? Like a whole Jr Walker show, thought I'd at least ask! While I'm at it, I have all kinds of amazing stuff broadcast by the BBC but no soul... any explanations or ideas as to why? Did the BBC not broadcast much live soul or was little of it taped by fans? There're loads of Stones, Beatles, Jimi, Yardbirds, Cream & other bands' stuff... how about French radio? German radio? I have some neato blues concerts from German radio, stuff like Howlin Wolf & Freddie King... any more frustrated tape traders looking for soul out here?
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 06:18 pm: |
Hi Erik
As far as the BBC was concerned in the sixties, Soul music pretty much didn't exist. As for Live performances on the radio - it didn't really happen. It was pretty much the pirate radio stations here who championed Soul music - I can remember hearing records like SOS and HEADLINE NEWS, PAPA'S GOT A BRAND NEW BAG, and BAREFOOTIN' on Radio Caroline - but NEVER on the BBC. Live appearances were pretty much restricted to local artists - with the Beatles at the forefront.
About the only major opportunities for visiting Soul artists was TV - ITV's Ready Steady Go, in particular, and perhaps the BBC's Top Of The Pops - if the record was in the charts. Of course, there was no independent/commercial radio at this time, just the BBC - and Radio Luxembourg, whose crackling heterodyne-plagued signal could only be heard at night. Unfortunately, "Luxy" only played sponsored records - but EMI did sponsor a lot of Motown plays!
Sadly there are no forgotten archives of US Soul artists captured Live in England. That which was never recorded cannot be archived :o(
By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 07:13 pm: |
That's a pretty good summation of radio play in sixties Britain.
Dave Godin used to champion petitions in Blues and Soul magazine on a regular basis in a bid to get decent coverage.
There was however one weekly show operating on BBC Radio in 1969. It was the Mike Raven Show and I think it ran on Sunday evenings at 7.30, for possibly half an hour!
This was the show on 23rd February 1969, together with my notes. BTW I was 18 years old at the time.
Open the door to your heart-Darrell Banks
Look what you've done...-Shirley & The Shirelles
Without You-Donnie Elbert
Hole in the wall-The Packers
Sophisticated cissy-The Meters
Baby, baby don't cry-The Miracles
I'm a good man-Al TNT Braggs
"The opening record was by the brilliant Darrell Banks. I've got Jackie Wilson singing this on an L.P. but it just doesn't have the punch of the original, a re-release.
The Packers was a sort of ghost like instrumental, but all the same pleasant to listen to.
Donnie Elbert has turned Bluebeat. Smokey Robinson rather like a track off the Going to a go go L.P.
Al TNT Braggs is quite good"
If Dave Godin is still looking in; Billy Butler's "Right Track" was played on 13th April 1969 and Chris Jackson's "I'll never forget you" was played on 30th March 1969.
At the front of the book I wrote.."This book has to be used as a recorder of Soul and R&B played on the Mike Raven Show".
Records were all described as fast or slow, dancer or ballad...not a mention of Northern Soul...obviously.
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 07:30 pm: |
From the archives:
DUM-DA-DUM-DUM-DAH
DUM-DA-DUM-DUM-DAH
(in other words, "Soul Serenade" by Beau Dollar and the Coins)
By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 07:41 pm: |
Thanks Ritchie
I wonder what happened to him.
I was going to mention the signature tune.
I didn't know it was Beau Dollar however, but knew it wasn't Willie Mitchell.
Greata stuff.
By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 07:47 pm: |
David
I remember he gave up his (unmissable) radio show in order to concentrate on acting (!) but his appearances seemed to be limited to one low-budget horror film for Amicus Productions. It was a remake of Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde, and I think he had his eyes set on becoming another Christopher Lee. After that, I really don't know what became of him.
By the way, my overview was referring to the pre-Radio One days, ca. 1964-66. Of course, Mike Raven's R&B Show - Sunday nights at 7 p.m. - was the "essential selection" of its day. (I suspect Pete Tong was still in nappies!) BTW, I was 15 in 1969!