By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 01:58 pm:

What more can I say Bob. You have achieved super-star status on this forum, and deservedly so. Thanks again for bringing all your experiences to us.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

Getting back to the discussion on Martin Vogt......
The first time I met him was at Ernstrat, before I bought John Merlino out. I was at the studio for some reason and Martin happened to be there talking to Ernie. I thought Martin was John Merlino. I remember thinking that this guy seemed like a pretty nice guy and not the ogre that Merlino was made out to be.

When Tera Shirma Studio B was being built, Martin delivered all the recorders personally. He drove them over to the studio in a small open trailor. I have a picture of the just delivered recorders sitting in the un-finished wating room waiting to be taken up to the control room.

Mike, Ed or Bob...a question. What ever became of the Scully company? I remember soon after I bought the 8 track I received a brochure from them with a picture of the soon coming 12 track. Anyway, the company just seemed to disappear and I never knew why.

By 1 track mind (205.188.192.181 - 205.188.192.181) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:02 pm:

Sigma had a 12 track Scully for a hot minute before going sixteen.
We have a 4 track one at Impact and it use for remixing "vintage" multis. Where are the Revilot tapes ehen you need them.
There are some decent ones that I am gonna work on as soon as all is hooked up.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:21 pm:

good luck with the vintage 4 tracks Bobby. Sounds exciting. In reference to your remark about the origins of the term " Cold Turkey "....What about " Hot Minute" ?
What the hell does that mean???

By Ralph aka speedo (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:23 pm:

It sounds lke a description of my early teen sexual exploits.

By Ralph the Kaputski (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:25 pm:

And conversely...Cold Turkey pretty much describes my life today.

By preacherman (205.188.192.181 - 205.188.192.181) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

It is an African American idiomatic expression generally used to conjor up the thought of negating the fact that Black people have a history of tardiness ie, C.P.time (colored peoples time)So a hot minute would make one think that a minute had a smidgen more time that a white folks minute.

While we are on that subject, there used to be a derogatory expression Ni****r rich which is actuality has not changed. Only the names have changed and the stakes are much higher.
Back in the day, the old record biz adage was
"Just give the n****r a Cadillac and a bottle of wine and a hooker,fuck his royalties.
That was the mentality then.
He could drive around in the ghetto all day and show off without a pot to piss in and be "Big Willie" in the 'hood.

Unfortunately, nothing realy changed, as all the rappers are concerned about is getting a Bently and a shit load of ostentatious jewelry and f****n a ton of ho's and smoking a ton of weed.
Like I said , nothing has changed.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 05:32 pm:

I know what you mean Bobby. I see these young dudes with all their flash and it sickens me somewhat. Sooner or later it will all go away.

By M.McLeanTech (64.156.149.40 - 64.156.149.40) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 06:20 pm:

Here's a good little story:

Don Boehret and I were having a mutual moaning session about the fact that we could not get the soulful recording engineers to get hip to the Volts, Ohms, Amps, and Watts, so to speak.

At that time there was Salem cigarette advertising that featured the song:

You can take Salem out of the country BUT, (Ding!)
You can't take the country out of Salem!

Don shrugged his shoulders and said:

"You can take Motown out of the ghetto BUT, (Ding!)
You can't take the ghetto out of Motown!"

I roared with laughter, and we posted this on the wall.

Next day I made the mistake of telling Ralph Seltzer about this little bit of humor. Mr. Seltzer was a very serious and idealistic person about race and humanity.

When I finished, he gave me look as if I had just set a dinner plate, with a fresh bowel movement on it, on his desk.

By M.McLeanTech (64.156.149.40 - 64.156.149.40) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 06:23 pm:

We have not heard from Bob d'Orleans for a while. See what happens to his thread when the cat is away and the mice play?

By M.McLeanTech (64.156.149.40 - 64.156.149.40) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 06:30 pm:

Graham,

...and this thing you started is still running on.

Where it stops nobody knows. This is the elevator music while we are "on hold" waiting to hear from Bob d'Orleans.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.136 - 165.121.215.136) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 07:37 pm:

I give him a phone call an tell he we are desecrating his 2nd thread!!! That may get some action.

By whyteguise (205.188.192.167 - 205.188.192.167) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 08:18 pm:

Hey Mike,

Speaking of studio jargon vis a vis the "ghettoites", here is one situation I went through.
A certain "producer" who, at the time had just come of a sizable hit, came into the control room whilst I was running a ref. copy for him.
He started with "more e.q., more e.q!!!"
So I proceeded to do the obvious, thinking he meant more bass. He kept on yelling "more e.q. m****r, more f***n e.q.!!!" So I must have added every frequency in the bok and some not yet invented. Still "more e'q' more e.q., only this time with an anti semitic epithet thrown in!!!
So out of frustration I cranked up the reverb to about 4 seconds with a 300ms. pre-delay.
Finally he then said," that's the s**t you Jew m******r, thinking e.q. was an abbreviation for echo!!!!

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.136 - 165.121.215.136) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 09:27 pm:

Hello Mike and Ralph,

After Martin's wife passed away Sue and I sort of adopted him and he would come over for dinner about once a week or so, sort of like the Friday night thing we have with Artie. In any case, on a few occasions we went to his place for dinner. He was not a bad cook! On one of these dinner occasions here he mentioned that he was once a professional organist and worked his way through college playing theatre organ in the east coast movie palaces. I knew that he played keyboards as at one time we had the Detroit Edison Steam coliepie (I hope I spelled that correctly!) at United, for use in a spot. It had been pulled into Studio C (the big room). He was given a chance to play the thing. I don't think you could of given him a million dollars and received a bigger smile. He must of played that thing (as out of tune as it was) for 15 min. or so.

Later, I had a chance to record him playing the organ at the Royal Oak theatre about 3 years before his death. I might still have that tape around here if I did not give it to the family. It was slow and laborious but you could tell that at one time he had a command of that instrument.

After his death, I was given a wonderful picture of Uncle Marty playing the piano by his daughter. If you want me to have Sue scan it I think I can remove it from the frame and send you both .jpg images of it. I have your direct e-mail address Ralph but I don't have Mike's. Mike, if you want just give me a call or get my e-mail address from David or Ralph mail me and I will get yours from that and get you a file. You can give me a call if you want MIke, if you still have the number.

I think Uncle Marty made a strong impression on all of us. What a wonderful, humble, ethical man he was. (My last purchase from him was my two KM86's.)

Regarding the 280B's which is how this started out..., I just spoke to Jerry Fredrick, who still has a 280B four track in good condition. He indicated that the later version of the 280B's did have a timed bias ramp up and could punch in. I don't know how elegantly it would be on pink noise. Gary Wiegand formerly from the now defunt American Sound and Video Duplication, who was with me this afternoon loading dirt for our respective gardens, said that the 280B that he had would not punch in, and left terrible artifacts. I have a 280 manual around here and I will take a look at the schematic and report back. I don't know what "vintage" the manual is however.

Pax to All,
Ed

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.136 - 165.121.215.136) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 09:42 pm:

Regarding Scully...

Ralph,

Scully was purchased by Dictaphone. I guess pro audio was not a big enough market for the corporate powers. In any case, soon after the purchase they discontinued the manufacture of the lathe's...(mind you vinal was still viable then,) then after about 5 years they simply aborted the production of the recorders. This left a lot of people in the lurch including Chuck Buchanan, who had two of their 16 track boat anchors, Jack Brokenshaw, who had a new stereo machine and American Sound who must of had 10 or so machines of various vintages. Parts were soon unavailable at reasonable prices. (Unlike Ampex parts which you can still get easily today!) I scavanged parts from all of the American Sound machines and robbed Peter to pay Paul for a number of years to keep them running. The last versions of the electronics were wonderfull and Jack's was one of the quietest analog machines I ever measured.

Pax,
Ed

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 09:45 pm:

Thanks for the info on Martin, Ed. He truly was a geuinely humble, ethical individual.
If you could post his pic here it would be very cool Ed.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 11:38 pm:

Also, thanks for the Scully story Ed. I always wondered.

By Preacherman (152.163.195.197 - 152.163.195.197) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 11:58 pm:

As an addendum to my aforementioned paragraph om the ghetto syndrome, there is one important fact which I forgot to mention, and that is, if there were just one person who is looked up to by them and treated as somewhat of an icon and who they ALL want to be is Al pacino's character, Tony Montana,in the movie Scarface. Jus t ask any rapper or anyone with that ghetto mentality and they will tell you that their "god" is Scarface!!
There is even a rapper called Scarface too.
The reason for al of the ostentacious excess in that world and the thug mentality is that they all want to be just like their idol!!!!
The second most person they idolize is John Gotti.
There is a rap producer called Irv Gotti, believe it or not. In fact, anything Mafia related is all right with them. So why the f**k don't they al understand that in the end, both Tony Montana and John Gotti fell, big time, and just like their heroes, they too will fall.
This is not intended to be construed as player hating, just the stone cold facts!!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:09 am:

Bobby,
The whole rapper mentality is one of violence and stupidity. I recently saw an interview wth a spokesman from Def Jam who was trying to make us believe that what they were putting out had some sort of social significance. What a load of crap.
When Rap first came on the scene I gave it 6 months. Boy was I ever wrong! I still believe it's days are numbered though. I just saw a piece on ABC World news on the resurrgence of Soul and R&B in Memphis.If this starts taking place around the country what are these no talent thugs going to do?
This can't happen soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

By M.McLeanTech (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:24 am:

Ralph,

Those thugs will discover the fun or recording music with multiple monophonic microphones mixed and panned to make phony stereo, and monitored at a horrendously excessive volume level. What else? Boxing? Womanizing? Gun collecting? How about alcoholism! Now there is a real beauty!

But the best of all is war.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.136 - 165.121.215.136) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:35 am:

Ralph & Bobby,

If R&B makes a turn around they will simply make NO TALENT R & B. And with the present stupidity, lack of morality and corporate mentality of the record industry, nobody there will know the difference!!!

By M.McLeanTech (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:37 am:

Ed, I just now sent you an email at your office.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 02:23 am:

You have a point Ed. The Industry has succeeded in dumbing down the tastes of the record buying public.However, the popularity of the oldies radio stations gives one a modicum of assurance that things don't always have to be as they appear.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 10:14 am:

Guys

Thank you for airing the opinions that many of us who have been watching the music business for many years have also been feeling, but have not voiced aloud. I can relate to everything you're saying. My house is a musical microcosm. On the ground floor, I am usually playing "organic" music from the 1940s up to the 1970s. Upstairs, on the first floor, my daughter (14) listens to current Pop music, while in his attic fortress my son (16) plays the latest Rap.

Occasionally a guitar can be heard emanating from my daughter's room, but mostly it's keyboards and sampled/sequenced dance rhythms. On the top floor, Liam entertains his Death Row heroes, or sorts through his Eminem bootlegs.

Still, there is cause for hope. I lent my son a CD of the Crusaders, and now he won't let go of it, or the Kool & the Gang CD he purloined from me. I'm also pleased to report that he frequently raids my Marvin Gaye collection, and is developing a taste for Bobby Womack. As for my daughter, she recently asked me to identify "a great song" she had downloaded as an mp3. It was Marvin & Tammi's AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN HIGH ENOUGH.

The popularity of compilations of Classic Soul suggests that "real" R&B still has a market and an enthusiastic following. Here in the UK we are lucky to have labels which cater for out tastes, and I am constantly bombarded with requests from the US for CDs of American music which is unavailable "at home". (By the way, I think this has nothing to do with "nostalgia". If the most desired items are those which are unissued, how can these be classed as nostalgia - or "songs that make me remember the time when...")

In today's economic climate, however, I seriously wonder if a Motown/PIR -type setup could ever exist again: a production house with a permanent rhythm section producing quality records on genuinely-talented singers. Does anyone today have the necessary budget? Real musicians don't come cheap these days. Even so, I live in hope that there will always be a place for genuine music from the heart, produced by real people with real instruments: the kind of music we call "Soul". I hope it will return before people forget what it sounds like.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 11:44 am:

RITCHIE

I think there is reason for hope. Eventualy the record buying public will wake up, and realise the music they are buying has got nothing positive or innovative to offer,and this includes a lot of current R&b material. I reckon the talent is still there today. What is really missing is someone with the determination to put all those elements you mentioned in to place. I Know that in coporate envoironments this is unlikely to happen quickly,

By Preacherman (64.12.101.159 - 64.12.101.159) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:45 pm:

Hello, Hello!!!!!! Cock-a-doodle-doo!!!!!!
Time to wake up and smell the coffee!!!
Eli here and I just want to say that I have aspirations of being "the guy" to turn things back around, hopefully.
I am trying to pull out all the stops, so to speak and little by little make it all happen, as I am a very tenacious individual and when I get motivated I am like a steamroller!!

If enough"good"r&b and soul is fed to the kids today they will have no excuse not to accept it as they are so fickle and impressionable that they will have no other choice but to accept.
As the old saying goes "monkey see, monkey do"
It happened then and it can happen any time.
We must bring back melody and lyrics that are earnest and sincere.
When I wrote Love won't let me wait, it was a "sensuous" song and conjoured up and implied sexual overtones without being blatently so, although it was "banned" in certain places because of the moans and groans, so I had to do a mix without them, especially when Major Harris did certain tv shows ie, Dinah Shore when he used tv tracks. Today that version of the song would be tame alongside al of the "knockin boots and gotta get that "booty" songs that are so prevelant in todays market.
We are living in the"sodom and gommorah" world of music and these bozos must be brought into the world of reality and understand that these songs have a limited shelflife with no chance for later remakes, as in my song which was remade many times and by Luther Vandross on FOUR seperate albums!! I don't think that an artist of his caliber will sing about "its my duty to feel yo' booty"!! Barry was "sensual" and still packs 'em in at concerts. We saw him at Madison sqare garden in NYC at a packed house with young and old alike in attendance.
We must eradicate as I call it the "Betty Crocker"
music as in cookie cutter.
Man, I could go on and on about this subject but Ralph as you said, its days are numbered.
Oh and by the way, don't get me started on all this neo-soul crap!!

How the f*k did all of this wind up on Bob D'Orleans thread anyway????

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.136 - 165.121.215.136) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 02:46 pm:

Hello Preacherman and All:

It ended up on this thread because Bob feels the same way. Last weekend I spoke to him on the phone and this was part of the topic of the discussion. We must of spent over an hour on the phone catching up!!!

In any case, with out getting "preachy" to the preacherman, I think the industry has a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to provide, I guess you might call it "ethicly good music." I remember Berry once saying that the sensuality of R&B music is reading between the lines or something like that. Classics , both pop and "classical" have always been motivated and written this way. Like every art, its the method of presentation that effects the morality.

Proving this point; I just finished a classical "art songs" project on the songs of Paul Paray, the former Detroit Symp. Orch. conductor who composed as well. His "Mass" is well known, and performed but what is not well known were these songs, beautiful, warm and above all sensuous!!! What is interesting is his ability to musically, say it all without saying it. Just like good lyric writing. They are in French (Paray) and the translations are good but without even knowing French you get the picture!!! In any case SEX is a fact of life, (no pun intended. The presentation of the moral picture of this FACT is a responsibility the industry seems to have forgotten. I think if we look at the stats of the out of Wedlock, underage pregnancies as well as the resulting abortions, we cannot say that music does not make a difference. This has a moral as well as a spiritual, psycological, and physical price to it. I don't think what the industry has gained in $$$ balances what it has destroyed.

Perhaps, must reading for all entertainment executives should be a Papal Document called "Intermirifica." If any of the guys on this thread are interested, get in contact with me off thread, and I'll send you a copy. It says it all.

NOW, I will get off my F****** soap box!!!

Ed

P.S. Mike, I did not get your e-mail!!! Go to the www.audiographicservices.com site and you can send it on the link. That way, I will have your e-mail and I can reply. I like to keep my personal mailbox from filling up with spam. You cant believe the S**T I find in the public box.

By M.McLeanTech (64.156.146.142 - 64.156.146.142) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

Ed,

That is what I did. I sent the email to the link on your audiographicservices.com sight, using the "contact us" function. Take another look.

I am in complete agreement about all this stuff. The trouble with the old morality was that it was based on proscription. By forbidding the discussion, we will solve the problem with understanding the morality.

My Dad knew how to teach morality: "Ohhh! Look out for a paternity suit! I remember that time that I filled up the cun-drum (where this pronounciation came from, I will never know) with water until it was as big as a baloon, and there was no leak, after I finished with her. Next thing I knew, I was hauled into court!"

Prohibition is no answer to a problem that is basically a matter of ignorance. ENLIGHTENMENT is the key word.

I was so impressed by your remarks, Ed that I got right out of bed, stood up, and attacted the four drawer filing cabinet that stands in the position normally occupied by a bed side table.

All four drawers were packed solid. I carried the contents of the top three down to the trash bin, load after load. I took me about nine trips up and down stairs.

There is no excuise for such cheap, degrading pornography! A woman is a person: a human being. The special feeling of happyness that comes from simply being sweet and kind to build up a wonderful happy friendship which leads, ultimatly to that most joyest possible mutual expression of the delight of being together, is like MS stereo recording technique. It is the enlightened way. How horrible to rip this heavenly experience into little pieces (no pun intended) to be enjoyed in a perverted way.

Now I can refill those top three drawers with romance novels. Still, when getting into those drawers (no pun intended) will no longer relieve my hot nuts, I still have the bottom drawer.

By M.McLeanTech (64.156.146.142 - 64.156.146.142) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 06:44 pm:

Ed,

While on the subject of sensuality, and the French, I would like to offer this serious comment:

I have a recording (London 400 055-2) made in 1981, (this is the CD) by the Orchestre symphonique de Montreal conducted by Charles Dutoit, of the complete ballet "Daphnis Et Chloe" composed by Maurice Ravel (1875-1937)

This is a fantasticly good performance of what has to be one of the top few compositions of all time, sensuality wise.

If those who choose cheap pornography that appeals to only the prureant (spelling?) interest ever could experience the reality of this music, they would spend the rest of their lives bowing down at the alter that is a beautiful, decent woman.

Love,

Mike McLean

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.136 - 165.121.215.136) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 11:48 pm:

We have to get in contact other than this thread. What city in the LA complex do you live in and I will do a search (if you are listed) and I'll give you a call this evening. (Saturday) I want to send you the Paray CD project and something else to review via snale mail.

Pax,

Ed

P.S. 24 years with Sue and counting!!! I know what you are talking about.

By BobDorleans (24.120.26.32 - 24.120.26.32) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 12:15 am:

Guys

I am still alive. I have just finished reading all the posts on my thread and I heartily agree with you. On my phone conversation with Ed W., I told him that rap and such was the reason I stopped recording. "Where is the music???" I once asked a rap artist who was defending his recording, "Could you whistle or hum the melody?". All I got was "Huh?" As to good music coming back, it's coming. And I would like to be a part of it. I drive here in Nevada to the California line and by lottery tickets, for one reason, to build a studio and operation for MUSIC. I've have a reputation for being very independent, and there is no amount of money offered, that would let the rappers and such in the studio. But as far as the young getting back to good music, it's happening. Look what happened when they discoverd this NEW guy, Tony Bennet. I think part of the problem is that they haven't been exposed to the goodies. Peer pressure and $$$ is kept in front of them.
Just to give you an example. While working at Electric Lady in New York, I became involved with the receptionist there. She 21, me 46. Anyhow, there was going to be a one night concert at one of the theaters, with Sinatra, Count Basie and Ella. These three people on the same stage would probably never happen again. I got tickets, front row balcony. I took her, and she was into all the rock and such. Didn't know who Ella was or Basie but had heard of Sinatra. Basie started the show with a band number, during the second number Sinatra came on, joining in. All this time she is slumped in her seat. When Ella came on, and then joined Frank, she was leaning on the railing, looking and saying WOW. To make a long story short, she started listening to other music and loved it. She was exposed to it and I think that is part of the answer. Well, I'm going to keep driving to get my lottery tickets, who knows.

BobD

By M.McLeanTech (63.210.113.118 - 63.210.113.118) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 02:18 am:

Ed,

Take a look.

By M.McLeanTech (63.210.113.118 - 63.210.113.118) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 02:25 am:

I think that Bob d'Orleans should get a great bit "attaboy!" for candor. It is clear that he is being very honest and forthright.

I want to thank you Bob. What good is this forum, if we are not candid in our expression of what we have to say!

Now it is my turn to get tears in my eyes. I just wish I could give you a big hug right now!

Sincerely,

Mike McLean

By M.McLeanTech (64.156.158.106 - 64.156.158.106) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 05:05 am:

Ed Wolfrum,

Thank you for your telephone call. It was wonderful to discuss microphone technique.

I found your sample of your current project to record the works of Paul Paray to be superb.

You are part of the big boys now, regarding the recording of classical music. Folks like C. Robert Fine, and Lewis Layton.

I feel honored that I once worked with you.

Mike McLean

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 04:04 pm:

Bob, I agree that exposure is absolutely critical. Additionally, I believe that LIVE exposure is absolutely critical.

We put on a music event in San Jose a couple years ago for the Recording Academy where we put twenty different live performers from about ten different musical genres on stage performing whatever they considered to be their best song. The result was that everybody in the room was exposed at to at least one or two genres of live music for the very first time. The reaction was as if we had set off a cultural bomb with rappers and classical musicians weeping and hugging each other. As hard as we try, recordings never really do justice to what music IS at the most basic human level.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.39 - 165.121.215.39) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 06:40 pm:

Hello Mike,

Despite our long discussion last night, I am also honored to have had you as an audio mentor.

We will talk again hopefully!!!

By M.McLeanTech (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 11:14 pm:

Ed,

Huh?

What do you mean "dispite...," and "...hopefully?"

Mike McLean