By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:22 pm:

From Tera Shirma Story Concludes.....

Feels a little weird setting up my own second thread. Somewhat egotistical I think. But the other was getting overly long and I must adhere to my standards here, so please continue....

By John Lester (213.122.195.18 - 213.122.195.18) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 10:36 pm:

Ralph...will you promise to come to London for YOUR book signing of the Tera Shirma Story!

By Eli (205.188.199.174 - 205.188.199.174) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 10:53 pm:

Way to go Guido!! There is so much more to tell I am sure as in the Jeffery Bowen debacle.

By M.McLeanTech (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:12 pm:

"Sporting blood!" That's what was beside it in the vacant lot! If you promise a lady the Moon, and then deliver green cheese, you do so at your own peril!

Besides, that food was so great that I don't want to do anything to mess up the supply. Tomali's (spelling) drenched in chili! MMMMMMMMM!

By Rich (162.33.234.214 - 162.33.234.214) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 02:09 pm:

Now thats a teaser Bobby, What's the Jeffrey Bowen debacle? What'd he do? I've heard a story about Jeffrey first hand, so damning to the essence of his character (or lack there of) I dare not repeat it (at least not today). Speaking of producer's here's a question or two I'll ask out of ignorance. Is it the producer's job to bring the project in under budget? Who sets the budget? And how much pressure was there on the producers at Motown or H-D-H to stay under? Also was it common for producers to cut deals on the side with the Studios or players with money out of their own pocket or using other (non-cash) type things to keep costs down as well as getting around the union? I suspect that one way for a producer to get more work from a label would be for the producer to consistently bring projects in on-time and under-budget. Pressure like would lead many producers to become inclined to make budget by whatever means necessary, particularly from a job security standpoint. Given the cut-throat & highly competitive nature of the business, they had to live somewhat in fear that one bloated & delayed project that didn't sell could very well be their ticket down to unemployment. Particularly in a situation where there were lots of producers to choose from. Back to lurking. Peace

By John Lester (213.1.130.35 - 213.1.130.35) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 02:24 pm:

Rich

I have to say that in my view, the pre-occupation with money and budgets these days has a lot to do with the current music standard. You all agree that music of today GENERALLY (but not exclusively of course) pales in comparison to yesterday.....you know the type of thing, let's reduce the manpower, cut the budget, less money, skimp on this etc. Music is an art and, in my view, you can't put a value on quality.

By The preacher man (152.163.195.176 - 152.163.195.176) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 02:33 pm:

Rich,
To sum it all up, yes a producer is analagous to a director in a movie , hence the misnomer. He should be the director, as the end result is all in his hands. Where the term producer should be used , is relative to the costs incurred as in the film business, the budget is the responsibility of the producer or producers.
In music, the budget is the responsibility of the producer who is mislabeled and should be the director. Sound confusing??? Wait!! There's more.
In music, the executive producer title is a load of crap and usually am ego stroke for album credits and vague misrepresentation and maybe the guarantee of a b**w job from an aspiring wannabe, of all three sexes!! In the film world it is usually the folks who raise the money or the phalluses of the male wannabe stud actors.
To backtrack a bit, I do not think that in the grand scheme of things, there were no budgets as such in the Motown/ric-Tic world, just go in and do the date as they were only usualy three hours in legnth and not years as in today'd world.
I am off of my soap box for now.

By Raph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 02:38 pm:

Rich,
You've asked a lot of interesting questions.I'm heading out the door now but when I return I'll answer some of them. I'm sure Bobby will have some things to add also.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 06:28 pm:

The Preacherman tells it like it is. He should get together with Bobby Eli.
In the case of Motown, there were no budgets. To record, you needed to submit what were known as Session Notes to the A&R department. If approved the notes would go to the Central Scheduling / Studio Management ( AKA Ralph Terrana ) to get booked into the studio. At the bottom of the page of the Session Notes was a space to put in the hours you would like to be in the studio and the specific time. If it was to be a rhythm date, I would notify Hank Cosby's office with a duplicate of the Session Notes and he would contract the musicians for the date. Same procedure for any instrumental over-dubs. Once the time was booked, my office would notify the producer of his day and time. As a producer went through the process of building a song, he would submit Session Notes to A&R for each time he wanted to go into the studio. As long as A&R approved, there was no problem and no budget constraints.

Independent producers have an entirely different row to hoe. Their job is to get a song recorded any way they know how. There was a lot of non-union dates taking place in the city in the 60's. Musicians would get payed in cash and the amount they were payed depended on the number of tracks cut. I remember in the early days the going rate was something like $20.00 per side. As the business grew in Detroit, the union made it's presence known and it was getting harder and harder to do this. I seem to Remember Berry Gordy leaning on the union to police this situation and he was criticised for doing this. Sort of a ...." sure...now that you've got yours " attitude. Hey business was business and he was just trying to keep the competition at arms length.

My brother worked on a project with former Motown writer Mike Masser, who was producing three sides on Whitney Housten for Arista.This project did have a budget, and to be perfectly blunt, Mike Masser is an idiot who had no business producing anything. Bobby, Clay and any of the guys will back me up when I say a producer needs to be decisive. He may not always be rght, but he has to make up his mind on a myriad of things through the course of a production. Mike Masser was a talented writer, but couldn't produce. The production of these three songs went on for a year between L.A. and NYC and went WAY over budget. Clive Davis ws threatening to sue Masser and out of desperation had a meeting with my brother asking him what was needed to finish these three songs. My brother told him to keep Mike out of the studio and he'd get it done. And that's what went down.

Getting back to independent producers and what they needed to do to get the job dne. I think I mentioned in the Tera Shirma story how it was not uncommon for me to carry a producer regarding studio time until his deal was made and he got his money. Then the studio tab would be settled
and everbody was happy.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 06:32 pm:

John Lester,
I don't have a book to do a signing tour but one of these days I may come to London.

By Rich (162.33.234.210 - 162.33.234.210) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 07:35 pm:

Thanks very much Ralph & John & Preacher Man. John I understand your comparisions to the current situation in the Biz. Too much crinkly at stake these days to risk making a good album ; ) BG comes across like a bottom line kind of guy, but I suppose the ultimate bottom line for BG was the sound coming across that AM car-radio he allegedly kept in his office & good for him, we're all better for it. But, I'm sure he also understood the value of a dollar. Preacherman, thanks for your explanation as well. Before discovering this site I had pictured producers doing more of what I now know were actually the engineers and/or arrangers functions, leaving me to wonder exactly what did producers do, surely they weren't shift supervisors, were they? After reading your post I understand it to mean that they were basically production managers, who had to have been held to some financial accountability even if it wasn't a formal budget. Thats what you do to production managers, you squeeze 'em from all sides - LOL. Anyhow, thanks again Ralph for drawing the distinction between independent producers and those who worked for Motown. I'd never thought about there being a difference in their motives from a financial standpoint. probably one reason Whitfield had the freedom to experiment, fewer budget restraints. I'd been left wondering about the money flow after reading one part of the TS story that talked about some of your slow payers. Ralph you mentioned $20 a side in the mid-60's. Any recollection how those rates would have increased in the late 60's & early 70's. Particularly in the early 70's with the business headed outta town and plenty of musicians around, independents might have been tempted to take advantage of the situation in Detroit. Not that they ever would, I only said "tempted". I would also imagine that the producers had a lot of motivation for getting around the union, again not that they ever did ... they may have simply had the desire.

By John Lester (213.122.201.10 - 213.122.201.10) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 07:50 pm:

Berry Gordy tended to be Executive Producer on quite a few records...particularly Smokey Robinson's recent album.

Now what was that you were say about B**w job!!!

By Preacherman (205.188.199.53 - 205.188.199.53) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:04 pm:

Rich,
These days "producer" is such a misnomer.
Just because some bozo from the ' hood saves his pennies from his Mc Donalds gig and buys (or steals) a drum machine and a cheap keyboard and sets it up in his bedroom in the f****n projects,
and "makes a beat" does not make him the credentials to command a budget of hundreds of thousands of dollars!!
Whats he gonna do go out and buy (or steal) a f****n Bently or wear a "house "on his wrist.
That mentality is so ignorant and unfortunately at the end of the day there is no stosh left in the budget for the cd!!
What about the axctual at of production and the terminology used in doing so. I could tell you stories!!

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79 - 12.245.225.79) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:09 pm:

Ralph; thanks for the illuminating info! The hardcore among us LOVE behind-the-scenes business and operating procedure details.
Steve K.

By Preacherman (205.188.199.53 - 205.188.199.53) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:10 pm:

John, My sentiments exactly.
Waste not, want not.
Oh the horror stories I could tell. Tales of excess beyond belief.
Not during the golden age in Philly.
Fortunately most of us held it together in the name of the groove.
It was way too important to f**k up. Our very livlihoods depended on it.
There were some who went astray but in the fine words of brother Gamble "Only the strong survive"!!!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:52 pm:

Rich,
Actually, when I think about it, I remember pay per side rates being 10 and 15 dollars a side. I think Dennis Coffey, Babbitt or Jack Ashford would have a more accurate figure in their collective memories.

Union dates were for the benifit of the musician. I think in the 60's it was somewhere in the $100.00 range for three hour date which could not exceed three tracks.. the problem is most of the independent guys couldn't afford to pay these prices. For years Berry paid low independent fees until the success of Motown. So the union was like a double edged sword. In some respects it helped the musician , but in others it tended to inhibit production. At Tera Shirma I would have my problems with the union when they wanted to keep a union represenitive on my premises to make sure all sessions had a filed union contract. Naturally I told them to stick it.

By Rich (67.193.139.131 - 67.193.139.131) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 12:57 am:

Preacherman, I'm with you on that, they don't make 'em like they used to, seems like everybody's motivation is on the bennies & perks of stardom, not the music. One of the last great records I remember is "If Only You Knew" by Patti Labelle from around 1983 one of the most gorgeous endings ever laid to wax. Maybe you know it. Most of what I remember after that is drum machines & beatboxes. If I want boxing I'll turn on the fights. Thanks again to Ralph for taking the time to answer.

By Steve (209.100.86.4 - 209.100.86.4) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 07:17 pm:

Stax At Terra Shirma...
Hi Ralph,
I picked up a CD reissue of "Boy Meets Girl" on the Stax label featuring boy/girl duets from Eddie
Floyd, William Bell, Mavis Staples,etc. Great album! The liner notes say some was recorded at Terra Shirma. Do you recall these sessions?
-Steve Litos

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 08:25 pm:

Steve,
I'm afraid I can't help you on any titles that may have been recorded at Tera Shirma.
After the success of the Hot Buttered Soul sessions, Stax was using the studio a fairly regular basis. The name of the producers of the various tracks would possibley be of some help.

By Rich (162.33.235.95 - 162.33.235.95) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 12:52 pm:

Hey Ralph, generally speaking (if there is such a thing) , I was curious if you had a general feel for about how long it might take from the time a side was cut at Terr-Shirma 'til you might actually hear it on the radio. I've heard stories about James Brown cutting a song one week and getting it on the radio the next, but thats hard to believe out of any one but particularly out of Detroit where there were different mixes being tried out and quality control folks, etc. Any thoughts about that or any extreme examples where something that was cut at your studio came out almost immediately or a side that was cut was so long in coming out you'd almost forgotten about it.

By Eli (205.188.192.163 - 205.188.192.163) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:09 pm:

Eli here . On that note,I once payed on a session at 11 a.m. and on the way home at 3p.m. it was on the radio!!! The company was trying to corner the market on a dance called the slide, so Leon Huff via herirage records cut it and the acetate was made in thre back room of the studio (pre-Sigma, same building but known as Sound Plus but not the old Sound Plus. Sound confusing??)
The acetate was then courriered to wibg , the big pop station at the time, and the infamous $50 hand shake was given and that was that!!
It was probably a we bit more than $50 though.
The record was the Slide, by the Lavenders.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:26 pm:

Rich,
To answer your question...It's hard to remember due to the large volume of things coming out of the studios at the time. I don't think anything beats Bobby's story though.You know bobby, $50.00 just doesn't buy what it used to.

By Eli (205.188.192.181 - 205.188.192.181) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:56 pm:

Ralph,
That reminds me of a sign on a hoagie shop in Philly that says: "You can't beat our meat!"
Nothing to do with records but it applies, I suppose .

By Eli (205.188.192.181 - 205.188.192.181) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 02:57 pm:

And, I should do a slogan for my programming thing that says: "You just can't meet our beats!"

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.136 - 165.121.215.136) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 09:54 pm:

Ralph,

I think that was part of the Ike Hays/Stax project that Russ and I worked on. See if we both have credits on the project and then that is probably part of the project we were tossing back and forth between United and TS to make the time deadline. Russ and I often talk about the madness. I have some pictures of the United part of those sessions.

Pax,
Ed

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 11:41 pm:

Ed,
If possible could you post those pictures. Also, you once mentioned you had pics of an all night wiring session putting in the new board at Tera Shirma B.If you do have those I would LOVE to see them. Thanks Ed.

By John Smith (194.42.250.98 - 194.42.250.98) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 12:01 pm:

Can anyone pass along any info on Spyder Turner's MGM session at Tera Shirma. Also, why when these recordings were so commercially successful, was Spyder allowed to drift off the recording scene in the late 60's (what actually was his next release following the MGM LP & 45's and was it cut in Detroit).Was he already experienced in studio work when he turned up for the MGM LP session(s).

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58 - 61.222.95.58) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 12:07 pm:

This was raised before... Spyder was on the road for many years following the success of SBM.
Graham

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 01:27 pm:

John,
If you search the archives under Spyder many of your questions will be answered. There was some discussion on this a while back.

By Lynn Bruce (64.233.239.172 - 64.233.239.172) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 02:42 pm:

Wow,you mean that your supposed to get money to do session work?
Of all my time playing music(44 years),I can't recall the musicians union doing anthing but make my paycheck a lot lighter.I didn't do any session work after 64,but I recall the union always weaseling around to get their cut on the gigs.Talk about legalized mafiosos.Especially Jim Lewis(the head capo).I was a member in good standing in Watertown,N.Y.,when I started playing in Detroit,they told me I had to pay the initiation fee all over and pay for the paperwork for making me join the det.local.Not only that,they demanded me to go thru their own accounting office,that meant I had to pay them an even greater percentage of my pay!!(And they wondered why we did non-union sessions and gigs).
Oh yes,now I remember.
They said it was for our benefits and security in our old age!!!!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 06:05 pm:

Lyn,
I always thought the musician's union was a joke. When we were on the road sometimes we would go into some city and have to pay " invasion fees ' because presumably we were taking work away from some local musician. What really got me is the fees would vary from week to week and they would take it directly from the club owner before he paid us, so there was no chance to debate it. What a bunch of thieves.

By Lynn Bruce (64.233.239.172 - 64.233.239.172) on Friday, July 05, 2002 - 09:40 pm:

Ralph,your being kind with your last sentence.And what was up with that traveling/invasion fee?The only reason I was a Watertown member was they caught me in Massena N.Y.as ateenager with the Gigalos,my first gig on the road,so Dave Kovarick and I had to drive a few hours to Watertown or get my legs broken(at lease thats what they hinted).I still get pissed about that taking jobs away from local musicians excuse, for traveling\invation tax.The sad part is I tried to do it right by joining in Detroit, but they couldn't process it in time before I left.So the Watertown local fined me for not having a card.I'm still wondering what happened to all the money we all gave the union.In the auto industry they got raises,the only way we got raises was to play with a good band that packed the houses and you could up your price.Whew,I'm glad I got that off my mind!!!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Saturday, July 06, 2002 - 12:06 am:

Couldn't have said it any better Lyn. God forbid you had some sort of ligitimate beef and went to the union for help.So much for your dues working for you.

By Lynn Bruce (64.233.239.172 - 64.233.239.172) on Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 12:15 am:

Going to the union for help?I was working ina group with Babbit at a place called the verdigo west.The owner said we were to loud.So we turned it down a bit.Hecame up again and said we were still to loud,so we really turned it down(cocktail-music).He came up again and said turn it down more,so I started playing with my brushes and we turned off all the instruments and we played.The owner called us in the back and started yelling at us &pulled a gun out &threatnd us.We called the union& in walks Jim Lewis later.He went in to the office and we heard laughter other jokeing,I looked at babbit and said( what the hellis this crap).They both walked out like old buddys.Jim said the owner was under a lot of stress and for us to keep it soft (in A rock club).We said what about the gun?We were told not to worry about it.So much for union protection.