By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:52 pm:

A continuation of FUNK BROTHERS CONTINUED. Carry on gang.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

No problem Alan. Your sources are your sources.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:11 pm:

Rundown acetates were a quick and dirty flat transfer of each reel of mixes turned in by an engineer. They were used by the quality control department to make preliminary decisions about whether or not to keep mixes. This would probably be a version of the song with Ivy Hunter as the artist that was mixed on 9 September, 1966.

I haven't seen one of those disk numbers in 30 years!

By john lester (213.122.203.53 - 213.122.203.53) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:22 pm:

Bob........can we deduce anything from the numbering that Alan quoted.

Alan......."In the Neighbourhood" AKA "On The Avenue" - we could also be potentially talking Connie Haines, Tommy Good, Ivy Jo here. Unaware of the R Dean Taylor reference - have you heard it?

By Hitsville45 (195.93.49.168 - 195.93.49.168) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:23 pm:

Thanks for that answer Bob, it's a question I have wanted an answer to for along time. I have a similar disc which again is a 10" Hitsville Sound Studio lacquer but this time it appears to be the finished article it's by Marvin Gaye and is called "Talk about a good feeling" recorded on March 2nd 1965, number OLI-120116 ans also has a number CBMN-0482-NH1 which I think is something to do with the reel number or matrix, but this has REJECT and RECOAT daubed all over it, is this because they would have decided not to release it and thus losing the recording forever or would they still have it on master tape.

By Hitsville45 (195.93.49.168 - 195.93.49.168) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:26 pm:

Hiya John, I have seen the 10" lacquer, a friend of mine has it and although I don't have it in front of me I'm sure it was credited to R.Dean Taylor, I'm trying to prise it from his grasp at the moment.

By john lester (213.122.203.53 - 213.122.203.53) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:33 pm:

Alan are you sure the date is March 2 1965 and not 3 Feb 65...you know that 2/3/65 means two different dates in the USA and UK

The numbering system goes back to the DM system
O - Staunton/Walker (producers)
L - Lawrence T Horn (mixing engineer)
I - Harold Taylor (recording engineer)

Tape 120....track 1 and 16th song on that track

The CBMN reference is interesting and although I have had suggestions that it includes the year etc..I am not sure

That wonderful song is one of my all time favourites and was issued on one of the many Marvin Gaye box sets. Apparently that track exists on Tommy Good (that guy wil have an album to beat all others if it ever gets issued)

By john lester (213.122.203.53 - 213.122.203.53) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:36 pm:

Alan

Good luck....!

By Hitsville45 (195.93.34.179 - 195.93.34.179) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 04:01 pm:

Thanks John, amazing knowledge, the date is definately March 2nd 1965 as it is written that way as against 2/3/65 or 3/2/65.
The CBMN numbering system I have a bit of knowledge on like,
C=Custom Number.
B=1965 year A=1964, B=1965, C=1966 etc.
MN=Motown Master recording.
0482=the 482nd recording of the year 1965.
NH1=don't know ????
It is a wonderful song and if Tommy Good has recorded it then that is going to be some tune as Tommy has one the most soulful voices to come out of Motown.

By Hitsville45 (195.93.34.179 - 195.93.34.179) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 04:02 pm:

John, whats the reference to good luck ???
I appreciate the sentiment but have I missed a thread.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 06:00 pm:

It may be stating the obvious but if they recorded 482 track @ march 2nd then they averaged about 8 songs a day, this ties in with what Dennis said was the usual output. The Funks must have been extremely hard working musicians.

By john lester (213.1.136.166 - 213.1.136.166) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 08:12 pm:

Good luck trying to prise out that record from your friend of R Dean Taylor

By harryweinger (68.37.248.78 - 68.37.248.78) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 11:13 pm:

JL - I believe that in the explanation of the letter system you have two of them flipped: the middle initial is the recording engineer and the third letter is the 'mastering' (AKA 'mixing') engineer.

Can anyone else back me up?

By john lester (213.1.132.69 - 213.1.132.69) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 06:40 am:

Harry, yeah you are right...my mistake..it was a slip up in the typing. Such an obvious mistake too!

Sorry

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 03:07 pm:

The disk numbers were a system that logged the settings for each and every acetate we cut so that we could duplicate it. The code indicated the size, the purpose of the acetate, an individual serial number, who created the settings and who actually cut and QC'd the individual acetate.

Publishing demos did not have these numbers on the labels.

The DM numbers were something completely different. DM stands for "duplicate master." These were assigned by the QC department to individual mixes they felt were worth keeping and having a safety copy made from. This number was used to keep track of the master tape, the safety copy and the master lacquers.

Harry is correct about the DM numbers. They begin with producer-recording engineer-mix engineer. Very early ones only identified the producer.

By harryweinger (68.37.248.78 - 68.37.248.78) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 05:00 pm:

Beginning to understand the system makes for fascinating investigation - like figuring out that "V" stands for Brian V. Holland, and a review of some old singles shows that he often mixed his own productions... or at least supervised mixes and the DM letters credit him as being on the board.

And maybe this is a separate thread...

By john lester (213.1.130.166 - 213.1.130.166) on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 08:42 pm:

V standing for Brian's middle name

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 06:06 pm:

I understood Brian was an engineer before he got into production. He was on the board a lot.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 12:18 am:

"Recoat" meant that the disk was to be "recoated" or in other words, recycled back to the manufacturer. We used so many acetates that it was worthwhile to send what we didn't want back. I think they cost 20 or 30 dollars each back in 1965.

This could be because the mix was to be scrapped or just that the disk had been damaged. Somebody must have walked off with that one because they were much too expensive to just throw away!

By JOHN LESTER (213.122.202.149 - 213.122.202.149) on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 08:35 am:

So Bob, are you telling me that those "recoats" may be all that is left of a particular mix!!

Eeeeek

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 05:10 pm:

It's very hard to say. We had tens to hundreds of mixes of any given song so many inferior ones had to be scrapped.

By John lester (213.1.129.89 - 213.1.129.89) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 08:40 pm:

swoon.............splat!!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 09:23 pm:

John

There are at least two versions of Swoon...Splat

- one hitting the carpeted floor, and the other hitting a wooden floor ;o)

By Ian W (213.122.14.209 - 213.122.14.209) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 10:15 pm:

Is that the Velvelettes - Swoon...Splat doo-bee doo wah-ah?

By Ian W (213.122.14.209 - 213.122.14.209) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

Alan

I heard you could be deejaying at the Cricket Club in Burnley next Saturday! Please could you play your "I've been loving you" by The Marvelettes? I like a man who can hold his lacquer!

By john lester (213.122.197.70 - 213.122.197.70) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 07:37 am:

I can't beleive that some mixes may have been lost for evermore.....

That should be a crime...

What did Shorty Long say.

90 days...30 days for the Boogaloo ....LOL

By Hitsville45 (195.93.48.172 - 195.93.48.172) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:16 pm:

Hiya Ian, I am DJ'ing at The Cricket Club in Burmley on Saturday and I certainly will be playing The Marvelettes plus many other Motown un-issued lacquers. Come up and say hello.
Regards
Alan

By john lester (213.1.128.24 - 213.1.128.24) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:48 pm:

I am going to Manchester on THursday...and staying all weekend........any suggestions for an oldie like me

By Hitsville45 (195.93.48.172 - 195.93.48.172) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:56 pm:

Hiya John, Bury Town Hall on Friday and Burnley Cricket Club on Saturday night, it's a top night.
Regards
Alan Pollard

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:59 pm:

Guys

Say hello to my old home town for me... Bury, Lancashire is where I was born and bred!

By john lester (213.1.129.218 - 213.1.129.218) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 05:46 am:

thanks Alan..

Its Martha, Edwin and Freda for me on Friday..but Saturday...hmm...that needs looking into

By Ian W (213.122.179.133 - 213.122.179.133) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:01 am:

Alan, thanks I'll definitely be there! I've never seen such an acetate up close.

John, you've got to be at the Cricket Club too! It would be great to meet you. The lads who run the club are dedicated followers of fash - sorry - soul.

Ritchie, there's a good venue in your town too at Bury Town Hall. You'll have to visit soon! It's nearer than Detroit!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 07:37 am:

Ian

Bury is my OLD home town... I think a 250-mile round trip might be a little extravagant for a night out :o(

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:27 am:

It has become apparent to myself that one of the great secrets behind Motown was that recording technique the producers/arrangers used was that of 'doubling up, sounds of different instruments to come up with an unique sound. There are many example of this, guitar and guitar ,Guitar and bass, guitar and piano, bass and sax, etc, etc,
I understand Phill Spector started doing this before Motown, to achieve a 'bigger sound' i am right in thinking this was one of the techniques used to create a thicker and more distinct sound??
This must have created quite a challenge for the musicians as they would have had to play precisely in time with each other.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 01:40 pm:

Soulboy,
The musicians had better played in time with each other or else they wouldn't have been in the studio.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:21 pm:

Soulboy

I suspect that the main reason Phil Spector's records had a thickly-textured sound was down to the fact that he tended to squeeze as many musicians as he possibly could into the Gold Star studio.

By harryweinger (12.110.192.128 - 12.110.192.128) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 03:27 pm:

Doctor Licks schooled me on the unparalleled closeness of the Funk Brothers by having me listen to the bridge of the Temptations' "Since I Lost My Baby." I would urge you to do the same: you will hear FIFTEEN rhythmic hits in unison. Can't get that from anyone else then or now without a drum machine.

More? Compare any Miracles hit cut in Detroit, like OOO Baby Baby, Going To A Go-Go, et al, to More Love, which was cut in LA. The latter's intro alone will tell you it ain't the Funks.

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.108.38 - 68.41.108.38) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 06:39 pm:

I started playing with Tommy Good &the Tab,s in 1968 and he complained alot about a cover of Sally go round the roses he had cut at motown that hadn't been released.He thought it might have done well.Anyone with info on that?

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0 - 12.234.95.0) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

I have to tell this story here. My son's kindergarten class invited the fathers to talk about their jobs. I have a day job now but worked as a musician for many years so I brought in my bass and some discs. The idea was to play a bassline, then the record so they could hear what it really sounded like :^).

One of the recordings I picked was the Four Tops'
"Can't Help Myself". Well, when I put the disc on the kids went nuts! Every single one of them
(in a class of 20) got up and started dancing, and when it was over they begged me to play it again. I could have played it (or other Motown) all afternoon.

Of course this isn't really surprising to those of us who grew up with this music and have known for many years how good it is. But it was a very vivid and joyful reminder that what the Funk Brothers created was not just some boomer nostalgia but truly great music that will live forever. Can't wait to see the movie!

- Gary Rosen

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:06 pm:

nice one Gary, Thanks.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:10 pm:

Gary -

That is SO TRUE! The love of Motown is not just misty-eyed nostalgia, but an on-going appreciation of some of the best music ever to come out of the Sixties.

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.196.49 - 205.188.196.49) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 09:15 pm:

Hey Soulboy. The arrangements at Motown were usually written in three staffs. Two staffs of piano (Bass and Treble clef) and one additional staff for extra guitar parts. A lot of times I would read the bass clef on the piano part and double with the piano. I could do the same thing and double with the bass part if needed. The guitar section could double any treble or bass piano part as needed. We usually divided up guitar parts among ourselves to make it easy. Joe Massina read bass clef and doubled parts as well. This way of writing arrangements allowed the producers and the arrangers a lot of flexibility on who played what parts.

Dennis Coffey

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.196.49 - 205.188.196.49) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 09:22 pm:

Hey Lynn. Sally go Round the Roses was produced by Mike Theodore and me and recorded at Tera Shirma. Tommy Good was in the group called The Inner Circle and sang lead vocals. The record was released on Impact Records. It was not a hit. Is this the record you are talking about or did Tommy cut it again at Motown?

Dennis Coffey

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.108.38 - 68.41.108.38) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 02:31 am:

Dennis, your right as I just heard Tom & Dick Maxwell saying they thought it should have been released.Man,its nice to hear from you!I still remember when you &Babbitt were trying to show me this beat you wanted. It's like O sweet Pea come on dance with me. The sad thing was I had come back from a gig in Miami and we alternated sets with a soul band from New Orleans& this drummer had this bad ass beat he called a fat-back beat and he showed me how to do it.I guess in the 60s every section of america had different styles.I played in a club in Wildwood New Jersey&this band from Jersey that played next door would check us out on their breaks. They sounded like Louie Prima &Sam Buterra,they kept saying ,now that how rock is suposed to sound like.We were dumbfounded as every band in detroit was working towards sounding like Sam Buterra. Go figure Lynn P.S.In the early days if you didn't do 4/4 or a heavy back beat you were probably a jazz drummer!

By detroit gal (152.163.204.186 - 152.163.204.186) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 02:46 am:

Dennis,

Glad to hear the info that you were involved with "Sally Go 'Round The Roses." That Jaynettes tune -- who are they and where were they from? -- has always haunted me. And now I'm reading the new Neil Young biography and I find out that it's one of his favorite songs, he used to play it obsessively.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.6.66.122 - 62.6.66.122) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:44 am:

Hi Detroit Gal

I'm not sure which version I have in my cd collection, but yes that is a strangely attractive song.

I can't get it out of my head right now!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:56 am:

Hi Folks

The Jaynetts were four girls from the Bronx: Mary Sue Wells, Ethel Davis, Ada Ray and Yvonne Bushnell. Their first record appeared in 1956, but they had to wait until 1963 till Sally... gave them a hit on Zell Sanders' TUFF label (Tuff 369). Incidentally, the B-side was the band track, titled "Sing Along Without The Jaynetts". The group disbanded in 1968 after a brief unsuccessful spell as The Hearts.

By David Flynn (213.122.202.133 - 213.122.202.133) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:22 pm:

.........and Ada Ray recorded solo a corking R'N'B dance track on the Zells label (#252), called "Give our love a chance"! :-)

Flynny

By BOBBABBITT (152.163.207.179 - 152.163.207.179) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 03:17 pm:

UPDATE: STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN
If you were there, you saw, heard, and felt the overwhelming reaction. The theater was packed, and the audience went wild. Spontaneous applause broke out after many of the performances, and the film closed to an extended standing ovation. Surprise guests Funk Brother Bob Babbit, and featured artist Joan Osborne also received standing ovations when they were introduced to the audience during the after-film Q&A session with producer/director Paul Justman, producer/musical director Allan Slutsky, and producer Sandy Passman.
Following our standout (and sold-out) debut at Tribeca, Standing in the Shadows of Motown has been very favorably reviewed by Variety and received a positive mention in the New York Times. The text of the reviews is available on the "News" page of our website.
"http://www.elliottscottproductions.com/index.htm"
-- General Status Report -- North America -- Artisan Entertainment continues to provide great support for the film, and we are working towards an October, 2002 theatrical release. We will premiere in Detroit and New York City, and quickly spread out to other major cities. We are in discussions with several labels for the soundtrack CD, and expect to have it available before the theatrical release. Television and home video availability will follow the theatrical release. We will share the details as we get them.
International -- We are currently showing the film to selected distributers at the Cannes festival, and are seeing a lot of interest and enthusiasm. Stay tuned for more news as it happens.
Festival Screenings -- We expect to be at one major North American festival in September, and in at least one international festival in October. We will announce the details as soon as we can.

By John Lester (213.122.202.25 - 213.122.202.25) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 03:32 pm:

I am pleased for all those lucky people who DO NOT in the UK but sad for those like myself who live in London.

And yet there is supposed to be a wealth of theatres in London - the theatre capital of the world, I was told. Clearly not enough.

Still, move over the likes of Nicole Kidman, Jerry Hall and Gwyneth Paltrow - we have a real star lined up soon.....Mr Dennis Coffey - I can't wait.

By harryweinger (12.110.192.128 - 12.110.192.128) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 05:08 pm:

To all the Londoners and others outside the US: the Funk Brothers movie is not yet offically released. With the internet we become privy to all kinds of events and happenings that normally would go unreported. No one is neglecting you! I am sure among the wealth of theatres in London, one or two of them will be home to the movie once Artisan gets their scheduling down.

By Eli-Eli (170.115.179.106 - 170.115.179.106) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 06:21 pm:

Regarding Dennis' comment about the musicians doubling and asigning parts, it was the same for us in Philly and that is why our records sound as they do and there is no stepping on parts. There have been some sessions with four guitars, three keys, two percussionists, vibes and bass and drums and no one got in the way.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 10:12 pm:

This 'doubling' of parts is clever stuff to me, and i am strictly an amateur musician, but even i appreciate the skill that you must have had to do this sort of thing. what Dennis says about the clefs is very interesting. did you have to practice well before the actual recording?

By Dennis Coffey (64.12.103.41 - 64.12.103.41) on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 12:22 am:

Hey Soulboy. We recorded three or four songs every three hour session at Motown. We never saw the music or heard the songs before the session began. That was the gig. We usually did double sessions every day so we got pretty good at it.

Dennis Coffey

By Dennis Coffey (64.12.103.41 - 64.12.103.41) on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 12:24 am:

Hey Lynn and Detroit Gal. It's nice to hear from both of you. Hey Bobby it sounds like you had the same kind of charts.

Dennis Coffey

By Paul Elliott (209.204.150.76 - 209.204.150.76) on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 06:58 am:

Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown --
Please be assured that the film will be shown to the public in London (and elsewhere, to be sure). The Cannes festival is one of the places where UK and other distributors pick up new films, and there has been a lot of interest.

So, it's coming to London, we just don't know exactly when.

Best,
Paul Elliott
Elliott Scott Productions, LLC

By John Lester (213.122.203.14 - 213.122.203.14) on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 08:43 pm:

Phew!

Thanks for that..I was beginning to panic

By bmbrimm (64.12.105.188 - 64.12.105.188) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 02:27 am:

This message is for dennis coffey. I was hoping this is the mr coffey that plays a mean guitar.Ive been searching for some of your music for a while.About ten years ago or so (maybe less)(maybe more).I received a tape that was the best playing i have ever heard but of course it came up missing. and if this is truley the dennis coffey i beleive it is can you help me find my favorite jazz guitar work. (Blue cover with acoustic guitar pictured). And how can i purchase.

By detroit gal (205.188.195.51 - 205.188.195.51) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 04:03 am:

David,
Is there more than one version of "Sally Go 'Round The Roses"? I only know the Jaynettes' version ...I'd love to know who played what on that, if Dennis or someone can post it!

As I recall, the piano was particularly spooky-cool. I think I have the single as well, somewhere.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 10:30 am:

Detroit Gal

I'll watch out for it in my cd collection.

The name Jaynettes doesn't ring a bell however.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 10:49 am:

DG & David

I posted some info on the Jaynetts (without an "e") earlier on this thread. I believe Sally Go 'Round.. was a New York recording. The producer was Abner Spector, and there's an entry for him at AMG, though it doesn't mention the Jaynetts.

http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=B67j4eai14x07

By John Lester (213.1.131.84 - 213.1.131.84) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

Ralph....Can we have a new thread please....it's taking ages to load!

By John Lester (213.1.131.84 - 213.1.131.84) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 02:28 pm:

Ralph....Can we have a new thread please....it's taking ages to load!

By Dennis Coffey (152.163.201.182 - 152.163.201.182) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

Hi Bmbrimm. Yes, I am the same Dennis Coffey. I think the album you may be referring to is called Under the Moonlight. It has a dark blue cover and a Gibson Byrdland which resembles an acoustic. That CD was number four in the country in Radio and Records New Adult Comtempory Chart in 1990 in the US. The label is Orpheus and it was distributed by EMI. I think it is out of issue. Sometimes I see it in used record stores. One day all of the copies just seemed to disappear. I am working on some new releases but no news yet.

Dennis Coffey

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 03:28 pm:

Dennis & BMBRIMM

There is a copy of this album on eBay at this mement:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=875695682

TIME FOR A NEW THREAD HERE?!!