By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.31.214 - 213.122.31.214) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 12:53 pm:

soulboy wrote on 28th march 2002

Can anyone answer me this? How important was the actual 'snakepit' to the sound? I know the guys recorded in other studios as well but it seems to average listener that there was some kind of special magic or 'aura' about songs that were cut in 'studio A'.

By John Lester (213.122.195.239 - 213.122.195.239) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:25 pm:

For what it's worth...and ignore me if you want

I will say this over and over again, it's all about teamwork. The studio was part of it...but I don't consider it had a more important part than the people in it. The studio was only important in so far as it was the place where the people (ie the team) got together.

That's what I think!!!

By Mike S (62.231.147.210 - 62.231.147.210) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:32 pm:

My view is that the studio room had a large part to play. Motown seemed to get a sound that nobody else could replicate very successfully....especially on the vocals which seemed to cut through especially on radio. Certainly,the actual players and singers plus the mixing would have all contributed but the studio set-up itself can make a difference.
Has Ralph T got a view on that??

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 03:10 pm:

Mike,
Studios are strange animals.I'm not sure what makes the "perfect " studio.Certainly a certain balance is desireable. I wouldn't want to record in a gymnasium. In the case of Motown Studio A, it's hard to say where the magic really was.I know Mike Maclean experimented with the room over the years.But I even have to wonder over all these experimentations in the case of Studio A.The guitars and bass always went directly to the board, so there was no influence from the room in these cases. So basically that would leave drums, percussion and piano to be influenced by the characteristics of the room. And as long as the proper mics are used correctly, and there is reasonable separation I have to once again wonder at the importance of the room itself.A very " dead " room can sound like the Grand Canyon when you pour on the echo. Also, all studios have their own charactersistics, and knowing the studio is definitely an asset when trying to achieve a good sounding recording. But that's why good engineers are so valuble. They know how to get the sound out of that room. So....having said all that...I think it really boils down to two major factors.
Performance and mixing. In the case of performance, Studio A would have been useless without the talent of the Funk Brothers, no matter how good the singers were that would come after the tracks had been cut.And of course, the talent of the Funk Brothers would have been wasted if the vocal performances were not first rate.So we now have a tape that has first rate musicianship and vocal performance all recorded correctly by a good engineer.Now what?? There's a old saying...." you could lose it in the mix "It's true. No matter how well everything is done before hand, if the mix is bad, it will all sound bad.I haven't a clue if I'm making any sense...it's early here.I guess to sum it all up...yes the room plays a certain part in the over-all equation of a record, but it is what is on that record and what is done with what is on there that will, in the final analysis, make or break the record. Of course all this doesn't mean a thing if the song isn't any good.

By jack (67.32.80.110 - 67.32.80.110) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:53 pm:

Well let me tell you about the studio. We cut hits in the studio that was owened by HDH and they had a make shift studio. It didn't matter were we cut. the only thing that I noticed when we recorded there for the movie was the memories of the past. The studio was were we got together and worked. So John was right. Jack

By John Lester (213.122.204.8 - 213.122.204.8) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:15 pm:

Jack...please tell us about when the Funk Bros went on strike in Europe.

I bet Berry was not pleased!

By phillysoulman (170.115.179.118 - 170.115.179.118) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:19 pm:

Sometimes, as in the case of Sigma, a lot of our tracks, especialy the faster ones were affected by the room ambience, i.e. the spill carried over by certain open mikes. Some producers liked this effect for the liveness that was obtained.
I think that thwe snakepit may have had a character of it's own as well that was part of the equation. Just a thought.
Back in the day, certain "rooms" were noted for their certain "sound" and were booked accordingally.

By soulboy (213.105.232.160 - 213.105.232.160) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:34 pm:

I was under no illusion that the studio was responsible for the sound, However i heard there were people naive enough to think that the Motown sound was something you could capture just by recording in Detroit, I don't know the names of these artists.Crazy i know, but apparently true.
I think in general there has been lot of ignorance over the years about what the Motown sound really is. First the artists got credit.then the focus was on the writers and producers.indeed it is only due to the efforts of Dr licks (Allan slutsky) that the Funk Brothers are now on the verge of getting some long overdue recognition for their contribution to popular music.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:42 pm:

Somewhere, I have a quote from BG saying that in the sixties, people flocked to Detroit to try and achieve that "Motown Sound" He said he found that really funny because, it wasn't the place itself that made the sound special.

He went on to say that wherever they recorded - Detroit or elsewhere - they still achieved the "sound", the inference being that it was the musicians and the associated talent that created the magic, not the location of the recording.

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.200.54 - 205.188.200.54) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:17 am:

Hi folks. The studio at Hitsville had a vibe but it was the musicians that created the sound and made everything happen. Motown also used a lot of EQ and compression to punch out the sound on the radio and records. Maybe Ed or Ralph can comment more on that.

Dennis Coffey

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:02 am:

Good Questionfor Bob Ohllson Dennis.

By soulboy (213.105.232.85 - 213.105.232.85) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:02 pm:

JACK

Where did the idea to use vibes on record come from??. I can't think of anyone who used them before yourself. Was this something used in Jazz?

By John Lester (213.122.204.40 - 213.122.204.40) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:08 pm:

Talk about compression and you think of Joe Meek

Telstar....Johnny Remember Me....Have I The Right

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:36 pm:

Good point, John

Joe Meek was almost certainly the first British engineer to use limiters and compressors, which he usually constructed himself. Humphrey Lyttleton's Bad Penny Blues was probably the first hit single to use compression - in 1956!

He was also probably the first engineer to wrap a brick in a blanket, and use it to deaden a bass (kick) drum. He way way ahead of his time, and never progressed beyond 4-track, preferring to dub tape-to-tape in straight-ahead mono.

He could not play any instruments, and used to hum his "compositions" into a portable tape recorder. His arranger - Roger Laverne - would have to convert these warblings into sheet music that his musicians could read.

Finally, he often got inspiration for his eerie songs by holding seances in the studio, and claimed to receive "spiritual guidance" from Buddy Holly!

Nothing to do with the Funks, but interesting?

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 12:48 pm:

you guys have a good all round knowledge.

By John Lester (213.122.204.40 - 213.122.204.40) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:06 pm:

Joe Meek predates Motown and Phil Spector!!

Maggie Thatcher's all time fave record was the Tornados' "Telstar".

John Major's desert island discs included the Supremes' "The Happening"........

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:57 pm:

Good to hear that the Tory leadership kept up to date with all the latest tunes when they were in power ;o)

By Ian W (213.122.120.216 - 213.122.120.216) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 05:01 pm:

In which case would Tony Blair's favorite be 'It's So Hard Being A Loser'? How about one for each prominent politician.

By John Lester (213.1.129.243 - 213.1.129.243) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:01 pm:

Good one Ian

I reckon Ritchie is the one to think of good ones for that.

Oh wait, I got one...the Lewis Sisters

He's An Oddball.........

I like that one, even if I say so myself!!

LOLOL

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 08:04 pm:

John -

I would but don't want to offend anybody!

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 06:23 am:

Everybody I know from Motown who went on to work at a lot of different studios around the world considers studio A to be among the very finest small studios ever built acoustically.

This was partly by chance in that it was unusually quiet provided nothing is going by in the alley. It was also partly by design because Mike had design assistance from the engineers at RCA who were pressing more Motown records than their own for a few years. It was a typical late '50s RCA design intended to blend the sounds of instruments rather than to isolate them which became fashionable during the late '60s.

The thing that was great about studio A was that what the musicians heard as they played related very well to what we wound up with on tape. We couldn't get the same kind of complex rhythm section blends at Golden World using the same players and engineers.

It was also the first studio in the world capable of punching in parts rather than having to splice tape and the first capable of eight track overdubbing. We were also the first to have automated mixing and a multiple effects send console architecture. The first tri-amped eq'd monitors were at studio A. The list is endless but most of modern multitrack recording was invented at Motown by Brian Holland and Mike McLean. It was the most advanced recording studio in the world between 1963 and 1970 only most of us didn't realize that until we left! I got an inkling when I visited EMI Studios at Abbey Road in 1969 and found it to be less sophisticated in some ways.

John Windt, our shop foreman went on to build A&M studios (including Bernie Grundman's mastering room) and numerous others in LA.

The thing about Motown is that very few individuals ever saw everything. Larry Miles and I were the only two people who held every recording engineering position in the company and to this day I suspect we are among a very few to have seen how a lot of it fitted together. I only found out a month ago that Berry Gordy owned an interest in two pressing plants here in Nashville and that one of them still has an apartment for the Motown artists to stay in because the better hotels wouldn't allow black patronage during the early '60s.

We recently visited Sun Studios in Memphis. It is very similar in many ways and fortunately it is still being used for recording. A part of me screams every time I think of Studio A being only a museum today.

By John Lester (213.1.130.197 - 213.1.130.197) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 06:51 am:

Bob

I kind of feel the same way about Studio A being used as a museum. However, I thank my lucky stars that it's not just a photograph like Fortune Records!

By soulboy (213.105.233.13 - 213.105.233.13) on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 01:35 pm:

It's great that people like Ralph and Bob 0 can clarify the situation about the studio.
The thing is to people like ourselves, however enthusiastic we may have been about the Detriot Sound, the only source of information available about hitsville and the funk Brothers has been the occassional mention of them in various biographies over the years. Even then the information is perhaps confined to a couple lines or a paragraph or two at Best. there has also been quite a few negative about articles over the years, but i never lost faith.It has been a mission of mine to find out what went on behind the scenes, and find out where credit is due. This is the reason i started THE FUNK BROTHERS part of this forum. I would also like to thank Dennis,and Jack,(again)for their contributions to the forum.

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.195.163 - 205.188.195.163) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 01:08 am:

Thanks Soulboy. My perspective on Motown is further discussed in my new book, Guitars, Bars and Motown Super Stars to be released this June on BeeCool Publishing in London.

Dennis Coffey

By soulboy (213.105.228.159 - 213.105.228.159) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 10:16 am:

Dennis

I certainly will buy that book, as i will buy ANY biography of any of the Funk Brothers, it's gonna be quite an interesting time for fans of the Funk Brothers especially when you consider Jack's book is also on the way. Add this to all the item's related to the film, and it look's as if the Funk Brothers will finally achieve recognition.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.173 - 195.92.168.173) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 10:29 am:

Hi Phillysoulman Some years ago I had a look around the Sigma studios and was totally surprised at just how tiny it was! But what a great sound! Do you know Jack McKnight? He did a lot of arranging etc at Cameo / Parkway for Bobby Rydell etc. I met his ex wife on a Philly trip once at John Moore's Middle Record Room up on Frankford, she gave me a 45 by Exodus that was `new` on the JLJ label, 2007 Sth. Mildred St. produced by Jack for Joe Mellace. Other names on the label are Vince Montana and Tom Digilio ?
Thanks Keith

By Dennis Coffey (152.163.194.181 - 152.163.194.181) on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 11:23 pm:

Thanks Soulboy. The Funk Brothers deserve all of the recognition they can get! Not only did they always play great, they were all great guys and fun to work with. I worked at Hitsville for four years and had a ball. I was the new kid on the block but they really made me feel welcome and part of the band. I did get to spend some time with the guys during the filming of the movie, but our schedules didn't work so I didn't get as much time as I would have liked.

Dennis Coffey

By jack (67.32.80.186 - 67.32.80.186) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 05:42 am:

We sure would have loved to have you with us Dennis ,we have had so many great times together . I still have the pictures of you and I on our great fishing trip. Jack

By mixedbyDLM (66.122.55.55 - 66.122.55.55) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 06:56 am:

I have done my usual apple and oranges comparison on how the mixes between Motown and Stax, (clean--for Hitsville to a drowned-out vocal in the mix--for Soulsville) but this strikes me very, very hard: How did Hitsville USA get such great gear in relation to its Memphis Rival, albiet a bigger room, that's usually flawed? I thought there was going to be a racial backlash on how Motown made studio purchases, such as consoles, mics, tapes, outboard gear, etc.
Second, who were the prime engineers who worked there, and what were the studio's dimensions (width x legnth x height)?
And unlike the Memphis Horns, (past, present, living or decased), who were Detroit's well-known horn players, besides the late Hank Cosby and Thomas "Beans" Bowles during that era?

Derrald Leo Mote

By John Lester (213.122.196.252 - 213.122.196.252) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 07:43 am:

Motown's horns according to a French album that I have

Where Did Our Love Go
Mike Terry (the whole Forum bows at the mention of his name!!!)

Darnells
Paul Riser- Don White (trombone)

Leaving Here-Eddie Holland
Marcus Belgrave, Herb Williams (trumpet); George Bohannon and Paul Riser (trombone); Hank Cosby, John Wilford (tenor sax)

My Guy - Mary Wells
Herb Williams, John Wilson(trumpet)...George Bohannon and Paul Riser (trombone)

Marvin and Kim - What Good Am I Without You
Russell Conway, Herb Williams, (trumpet); George Bohannon and Paul Riser (trombone); Hank Cosby, (tenor sax); Mike Terry (bari sax)

You're My Remedy- Marvelettes
includes Donald Towns (trumpet);

Can I Get A Witness-Marvin Gaye
Includes Patrick Lonier (trombone); Eugene Moore (bari sax)


I notice that Clarence Isabel plays bass on Can I Get A Witness.

I should also add Norris Patterson.

Harry Weinger tries to list all the Motown musicians in notable releases..WHICH I HOPE YOU ARE BUYING!!! LOLOL

By soulboy (213.105.234.166 - 213.105.234.166) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 10:42 am:

DLM

I recall several years ago listening to the ATLANTIC story on radio. They interviewed the likes of Tom Dowd,and Jery Wexler one of them made the comment that they had tried to convert STAX to stereo and they took about two years to persuade them to do this. The impression i got was that they were very resistant to change at stax, they still used a 4 track system when Detriot was using maybe 16 track.
To the average listener though the one striking difference is hitsville records seemed to be using far more treble that those of stax. This may have been due fact that the recordings had to sound good on small transistor radios.
Either way STAX also cut some great records had some great soul singers, and like Philly and Motown their work has stood the test of time.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 04:03 pm:

Mike Mclean, John Windt, Harvey Schwartz, Robert Dennis, Nate Jennings, Michael Grace, Dave Clark and undoubtedly others who I'm forgetting after 40 years built most of Motown's gear. Brian Holland and Berry Gordy would ask if something could be done and Mike would find a way to do it often borrowing from motion picture post production technology. This was unprecedented in music production.

Berry Gordy wanted to use the most advanced recording facility in the world and was willing to pay for it. (He also never charged his artists and producers for studio time.) He did not see Motown as just a case of being self-taught, becoming lucky and cutting a string of hits the way Stax had. In fact Mike McLean's predecessor had left to become the chief engineer at Chess Records in Chicago.

The remarkable part is that the sales, promotion, publishing, International, artist management and artist development departments were every bit as advanced and brilliantly unique as Motown's studio was. Motown was successful by design as many who left discovered the hard way working with other companies.

The down side to all of this is that Motown was probably not nearly as profitable as most people assume. We had 100 employees at a time when Atlantic only had 17.

By jack (67.32.80.186 - 67.32.80.186) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 04:59 pm:

I would like to add to the story about how the studio thing went at stax. One engineer that helped stax get a good sound and use Motown ideas ,was Tom Nix defected from motown ranks as a engineer and went to Stax to run the studio.With the help of Al Bell direction.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 11:39 pm:

Tom Nixon became a VP at Stax. He was a brilliant engineer at Motown around 1965-66. I had no idea what happened to him until I saw his picture in a book about Stax last year.

By mixedbyDLM (66.127.79.37 - 66.127.79.37) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 06:59 am:

Hey folks:

Thanks for the input of the Hitsville VS Soulsville.
Speaking of which, have any of you checked out the soulsvilleusa.com site in regards to the Stax Museum under constuction, of all places, the EXACT location where it was located?
But does anybody still know anything about the dimensions of "the snakepit", or Cloud Bourne in Grosse Pointe?

Thanks for giving me the Memphis... Whoops, that's the Detroit Horns!

Give me 27 Million to operate United Sound,
Derrald Leo Mote!

PS: With that kind of money, I'd set up a Miami shop as a sister studio!

By soulboy (213.105.233.100 - 213.105.233.100) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 06:14 pm:

Coming back to the Funk Brothers and Hitsville, is it true that the majority of tracks were recorded on either first or second take? If this is true then the level of musicianship must have been far in excess of what it is today, with some well known acts taking two or three years just to come up with one complete album.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 06:59 pm:

Soulboy,
Those dudes came into the studio ready to do business.It was not uncommon for a producer to get the tracks cut on three songs during a standard three hour recording session. Because I am a keyboard player I was always particulary impressed with Earl Vandyke who would usualy just quickly scan the charts and he was ready to record. All the Funk Brothers were heavy hitters.

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:33 am:

I would like to add my 2 cents about the Motown sound in Detroit. The sound was a blend of the musicians, the room, the equipment, and the engineer. I spent a lot of time in Studio A, and even mixed a few in A as well. As an example, I did a session with 2 drummers. First drummer was on the first tune. Got his sound and cut the track. When the second drummer sat down at the same set, I had to re-do the entire sound. So the Motown sound was clearly the mixture of the great Funk Bros. the room and engineers. A combination that could not be copied anywhare.

By Mike S (62.231.147.210 - 62.231.147.210) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 03:28 pm:

I was interested to read that the bass was plugged directly into the desk in studio A and so the studio ambience had no part to play in the sound. But what about early say 1964 tracks when Jamerson played double bass such as on My Guy?
The Motown bass sound was pretty unique - even when Jamerson played on tracks elsewhere,they didnt have that immediate Motown sound (ie GWorld/Brunswick). So down to the mix?
I would also be interested to hear from Russ,Jack,etc about how different producers approached their work. You can often tell A Smokey production from a Mickey Stevenson one...and HDH from Norman W....without looking at the label,yet it was all part of the overall Motown sound?

By Dennis Coffey (192.251.125.45 - 192.251.125.45) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 01:37 am:

Hey Soulboy. It took us about one hour per song. I don't think we ever got one in the first or second take.

Dennis Coffey

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 05:43 am:

Everybody wants to know about THAT bass sound.

I swear 90% of it came out of the players' fingers. If you did almost nothing to it, Babbitt and Jamerson sounded absolutely awesome. Unfortunately too many engineers start twisting knobs before they listen to the raw sound of the musician.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 06:05 am:

The number of takes I saw varied all over the place from arranged parts that were simply played as written to cases where a whole song was developed over the course of an hour or two as the producer/writer experimented. I agree that an hour per song was probably the average.

There's an old story about James Brown taking his band into Bell Sound in New York, recording a whole album down from the top in one take and everybody filing out without saying another word.

I never saw anything like that happen at Motown with the exception of a one take lead vocal. On the other hand I was recently in touch with an engineer here in Nashville who had been an assistant on the James Brown sessions that produced "I Got You" and "I Feel Good" which were cut in Miami. He didn't remember those sessions moving particularly fast.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.165 - 195.92.168.165) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 09:08 pm:

Hello all. Can anyone help me with a theory that i've had for a while Re; the backing of Johnny Goode's recording on Solid Hit 106 - `Payback`. The A side is a vocal but the flip is MEGA. I have always assumed it was the Funk Bros. The organ, bass, lead and drums are to me so obvious. Can anyone shed light on this, also who exactly was Johnny Goode? The tune is from the Groovesville catalogue.

Thank you Keith.

By john lester (213.122.201.16 - 213.122.201.16) on Sunday, April 07, 2002 - 10:32 pm:

Keith turned me onto this one....about 30 years ago......Earl Van Dyke is surely the man responsible for making this a classic.

By acooolcat (61.222.95.58 - 61.222.95.58) on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 03:36 am:

Wasn't there a rumour about it being Sidney Barnes?
Graham

By soulboy (213.105.230.122 - 213.105.230.122) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 10:30 pm:

I have read on an internet site recently, the following statement:
songwriting/production duo, Burt Bacharach and Hal David, would have clandestine rendezvous with the Funk Brothers at Detroit-area recording studios.
This would have been quite an interesting collaboration, if it did actually happen! Does anyone have any information on this???

By Dennis Coffey (64.12.105.174 - 64.12.105.174) on Thursday, April 11, 2002 - 11:20 pm:

Hi Soulboy. I did a session for Hal David when I lived in LA but I am not aware of Hal and Burt and the Funk Brothers.

Dennis Coffey

By Clay McMurray (66.73.179.183 - 66.73.179.183) on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 11:02 am:

Hi Fella's
I would like to add a few words regarding the Motown Sound. If you listen to the musicians on the Funk Bros movie soundtracks and various songs
they played for the artist(Joan Osborne,Ben Harper,Gerald levert,Chaka,Michelle,Bootsy etc,you
can honestly hear the unforgettable signature of all the living musical geniuses that made up the Motown Sound. And even without the keys,the bottom,the heartbeat and the rhythms of Eddie Bongo, Robert White, Earl Van Dyke, James Jamerson and Benny Benjamin it's still there, strong and tight and always right.Paul Riser said it all when he said" Without the Funk Bros, there would'nt have been a Motown Sound" They all belong in the HALL OF FAME,because there will never be a group of musicians who are as collective as THE FUNK BROS. I'd put them up against anyone RIDING,WALKING or RUNNING. Peace!!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 11:07 am:

AMEN to that, Clay!!

By soulboy (213.105.231.60 - 213.105.231.60) on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 12:25 pm:

I'll second that,Clay. An excellent idea!!

By john lester (213.122.193.70 - 213.122.193.70) on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 12:36 pm:

I been trying to think of a song title to match the two before...

How about this one..this is the best I can do

God Bless Whoever Sent Them....We really needed THEM....

By soulboy (213.105.229.45 - 213.105.229.45) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 12:24 pm:

What Motown artists were the most popular among the funk brothers? Did they have definite opinons on this?

By john lester (213.1.128.212 - 213.1.128.212) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 01:34 pm:

Purely an opinion but I would lay money on

Stevie Wonder

By jack (216.78.131.5 - 216.78.131.5) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 06:33 pm:

The 4 tops because they were closer to our age, Jack

By john Lester (213.122.198.43 - 213.122.198.43) on Sunday, April 14, 2002 - 07:34 pm:

What do they say about a fool and his money are soon parted!

Doh!!

By soulboy (213.105.230.28 - 213.105.230.28) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 08:42 pm:

Can anyone tell me if any old tapes etc of the sessions at hitsville, with the funk Brothers exist.
I can't see any reason why they wouldn't exist,as recordings (bootleg or otherwise) of many classic rock bands of the era, have this sort of material available.
On the other hand they may have already been used as material for the 'standing in the shadows of motown' film.

By soulboy (213.105.230.28 - 213.105.230.28) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 09:00 pm:

On this thread previously i asked about the last sessions at Hitsville, and was given a reply, but i am curious about last few years of Motown in detroit, Was the run-down very brisk or was it long winded as in many other organisations?
Were the musicians given any incentives to re-locate to LA?

By john lester (213.1.135.40 - 213.1.135.40) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 09:31 pm:

Soulboy

Alot of old tapes from Hitsville USA sessions were discarded in the dumpster at Woodward. Some "dumpster hungry" people decided to take them before they were trashed completely and quite a few of them found their way to the UK. Hence, never be surprised what turns up as a new classic on the Northern scene...eg "Reconsider" (not the real title according to the Jobete book) by Brenda Holloway

On another thread, it was asked about (Frances Nero's) Keep On Lovin' Me apparently assigned to the Marvelettes...that is from an acetate which contains the band track for the song. So yes, band tracks exist....

Motown's move to LA....well, this is the right place to sought views. However, it is clear that if you were not moving in the right circles, you only found out that Motown moved to LA after the event...as Martha Reeves tells....

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 10:32 pm:

John

That's half-answered a question I've been hesitating (out of diplomacy) to ask - about how certain tracks "escaped" into the wild. Thanks.

By jack (216.78.128.86 - 216.78.128.86) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 08:06 am:

Well thats strange that you ask. I have the last session ever recorded on a few of the funk brothers that I recorded in 1980 I think. I did them in L A. I had Jamerson ,Bongo ,Robert White Myself, Wha wha ,and Earl. Robert did the arrangements.The session will be on a cd that will go along with my book. And let me tell you , for all of those people that think Jamerson' chops were down, Say that after you hear him in his last few months of life. Jack Ashford

By david, glasgow, scotland (213.96.205.134 - 213.96.205.134) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 09:56 am:

ritchie there used to be a hole in the wall at the back of the building.

apparently many items were scattered on the floor.

this came from a detroiter who was in the building four years ago.

when did pieces like brenda holloway surface?

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 01:09 pm:

I guess that's where that JJ Barnes track came from, then ;o)

By BassLand (63.207.60.155 - 63.207.60.155) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Dear Jack Ashford,

I look forward to hearing the music you speak about and reading your book. You know, one thing that Dr. Licks said in SITSOM was that he thought that Jamerson did not do well in LA after not having the Funk Brothers around him, you know, NO family after doing all these great things with you guys in Detroit. I bet he is shinning brightly on those last recording being back with You, Robert White, Bongo, Earl & Wah Wha (Just out of curiosity, Who was the drummer?).

BassLand (Bob Lee)

By john lester (213.1.137.150 - 213.1.137.150) on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 08:13 pm:

Jack

Get finishing that book and treat yourself to a holiday to the UK to see us all...

Meanwhile, we'll start cleaning the red carpet!

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 03:27 am:

I'll second Jack's mention of the Four Tops and add that even though I was young, it was a no-brainer in the studio that they were probably the best singers we had. I'm pretty sure all of the other artists would go along with that too. We ALL felt utterly honored to work with the Tops.

I've seen the movie twice now and it was even better the second time around. As Clay said, we WILL be hearing the very same Detroit sound that nobody has heard for thirty years. It is alive and well. I pray that somebody will be wise enough to make another record with them.

By tay (216.78.76.118 - 216.78.76.118) on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 10:18 pm:

Hi guys,
I've read your comments about the snakepit and the sound that can't be dubbed. I personally feel that it was no magic in the room, only the magic that the Funk Brothers poured out of their hearts and souls each time they played a beat or note. These guys possesed talent and not to mention a drive to be perfect. Many of these questions will be answered in the upcoming book
that is embedded with information about the music, Motown, and history making events.
Tay

By soulboy (213.105.230.38 - 213.105.230.38) on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 08:59 am:

The general concensus certainly IS that the magic 'sound' enamated from the Funks. This is borne out by the fact that they freqently recorded at other locations with similar results.
The point is however,that the buildings themselves acquire legengendary status, when great teams of musicians work there.This happened with the Stax studios,Abbey road,Sigma in Philly, Electric ladyland. etc,etc.

By jack (216.78.129.223 - 216.78.129.223) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:28 am:

One of the drummers on that date with Jamerson and the funk was Eddie coward from Chicago Jack

By soulboy (213.105.239.19 - 213.105.239.19) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 09:25 am:

Does anyone have info on the less well known funk brothers like: larry veeder, dave hamilton, clarence isabel, Cornelius Grant,Tony newton, etc, etc,

By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.4.101 - 213.122.4.101) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 10:17 am:

you can read bits about dave hamilton on the soulful detroit tour.

for great detail see the two ACE/KENT cd's which released much of dave's own material.

another underrated guy. that was dave hamilton.

By john lester (213.1.130.71 - 213.1.130.71) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 04:41 pm:

soulboy...that is what this site is about.....

Cornelius Grant should be on this site...who can find him and ask him to come on board?

By Eli (170.115.179.118 - 170.115.179.118) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 05:47 pm:

Soulboy, I beg to differ. The end result was a combination of the great players and the way that the roomreacted to their playing. The same with Philly. A lot of it was room spill relative to the musicians performance. In the case of Motown, it was the the drums that were mostly affected. In Philly it was most everything, except for the bass.

By TNTBass (64.164.173.187 - 64.164.173.187) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 06:59 pm:

WHALAA! Tony Newton here! My career spans motown, invictus, fusion with the Tony Williams Lifetime, And Let's be generous from germany, Rock with Gary Moore and G-Force and many others. You can go to the "Allmusicguide.com" website to view a small discography. I now live in N. Hollywood, ca developing my own original music. TN

By BassLand (64.165.226.84 - 64.165.226.84) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 07:12 pm:

I just spoke to Tony Newton and he should be posting here shortly. Here is a picture of me and Tony.

By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 08:23 pm:

thanks bassland. great pic.

welcome to the forum tony.

if you use the search function to the left of your screen you can input your surname newton and several entries will emerge.

there are also many entries on invictus.

you can then read what people have been saying about you!

By jack (216.78.129.28 - 216.78.129.28) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 12:35 am:

First you must understand when the name funk brothers came into being.When Earl came to Motown in around 62 we all started working the clubs together. When I say all I mean Earl,Me , uriel,Benny Bongo And Earl was playing organ.At that time is when we came up with the name funk brothers.Not befor 63 and not later than 65. So all of those great men that were there befor those dates were not funk brothers.When I arrived at motown in 63 Dave hamilton was the vibe player an was very good.But I never saw him working the clubs with us. Jack

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 04:27 am:

Jack - What about Joe Hunter? Earl replaced him at Motown - but I still regard Joe as a Funk Brother because he played on a lot of Detroit recordings (outside of Hitsville) during the 60s - including many of the Pied Piper recordings. What about the Funk Brothers sessions outside of Motown?
Graham

By jack (216.78.128.172 - 216.78.128.172) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 06:07 am:

I was only talking about the original name funk brothers name. Joe was the first musician with Berry but at that time they were not called the funk brothers. Now of course after Earl came to Motown he was the first one to call the cats funk brothers. But that didn't mean that any of the men that came along after that were not important to the sound.Now as far as the sessions that I had outside of Motown , I used the funk on most of my sessions because we worked the clubs with each other at night.When I had to mix or something I didn't do the gig at the club that week.I really think that the name funk came when Berry said that he would put a record out on us ,and Earl picked the name funk brothers,Which Berry didn't like .jack

By soulboy (213.105.239.56 - 213.105.239.56) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 09:01 am:

With all this talent around, there must have been a very competitive atmosphere among the musicians. How did you manage to remain on friendly terms for so long?
One of the great attributes of the funk Brothers is that they stayed together for a long time, While some of their musical competitors of the time simply fell apart.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

Motown in Detroit had the least amount of self-centered ego tripping I've experienced in the music industry. Everybody's focus was on the music as opposed to what they personally were (or were not) contributing. Being WAY out there at Motown wasn't very far at all compared to most of the musicians I experienced later on.

None of these musicians NEEDED Motown in order to become highly respected professionals. They were there ONLY because they were ALREADY the best in town and everybody knew it. It wasn't about how many hits you had under your belt, it was about how skilled a musician you were. Above all, it was about great ensemble playing where the whole was equal to far more than the sum of the parts.

By jack (67.32.80.95 - 67.32.80.95) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:14 pm:

I wish that I had said that(smiles) just think , you are in a town that had the best jazz musicians in the history of the business i.e. Milt Jackson etc. you had to consentrate on your acts instead of self. and man every body in Detroit was bad. And by me coming from Phila. I had my own pressure to deal with . So we only cared about being the best that we could be. And it was wonderful the way we all got along. It was the best time of my whole musical life.Jack

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 08:55 pm:

Couldn't have said it any better Jack.

By soulboy (213.105.236.90 - 213.105.236.90) on Thursday, April 25, 2002 - 10:34 pm:

Excellent answer Bob and Jack. In these days of self, it is difficult sometimes to understand the culture behind it all.

By harryweinger (68.37.255.124 - 68.37.255.124) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 12:37 am:

There was mention here of whatever happened to outtakes of Motown recordings - unfortunately Motown discarded for the most part all alternate takes and false starts during the sixties heyday. Master takes were then cut into multi-artist master reels each week, during both the 3-track and 8-track era. The reels I have worked with often have take numbers, and some of them get up there. So if The Supremes "You Can't Hurry Love" took 18 takes or so, there are no takes 1-17 (or 19, 20, 21,...) in the vault. Sometimes there is, but only sometimes - perhaps a producer or even an engineer like Bob Ohlsson (hi Bob) would keep one, just in case overdubs were needed, or another reason. But not often. That's why, if you ever hear an alternate version of a song, or studio chatter or a producer's countdown on a track, they're rare.

Perhaps this can be copied and re-posted in another forum.

Hey Black Jack, how are ya?! Can't wait for the movie to come out!

Harry W.

By jack (216.78.128.142 - 216.78.128.142) on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 01:23 am:

Hi Harry good to see you on the form .August is the month and I can't wait to get with the funk again. See ya. Jack

By tay (209.214.193.128 - 209.214.193.128) on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 11:27 pm:

Hi Jack,
I am currently speaking with contacts via e-mail and is busy as usual. Progress is beening made daily. I'm Just dropping a quick note and checking things out on the forum.
Tay

By jack (216.78.129.118 - 216.78.129.118) on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 03:05 am:

Tay I have some things that were sent to me from Tiwan. I know that you will want them .so call me. jack

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

How did the producers decide on which of the Funk brothers they wanted for a particular song. was this done on the spur of the moment ,or did certain producers favour certain combinations of musicians. or was it a case of recording everyone present and then left to others to pick the best sounds out of the mix.
From the information in the parts of this forum it would seem the job of mixing was crucial to the success of the label(s).

By john lester (213.1.128.144 - 213.1.128.144) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 12:35 pm:

Well, that last message has made me really happy cos if this Forum has made people aware that Detroit was not JUST about Motown and the Supremes/Berry Gordy - then David and Lowell should be acknowledged into the Hall of Fame for their contribution to ensuring that the real history is known...

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 11:35 am:

John

I have been aware for some time that Detroit music was more than the Motown label.
Here are the some facts about myself.
1. I have never been a Northern soul fan as i was quite young when the whole thing was at it's peak.
2. I join in the discussions, and start my own to further my knowledge of what was happening behind the scenes at hitsville. I admit to bieng heavily biased to Motown
3. I have a particular interest in the funk brothers and hope they gain the recognition they deserve.
4. I admit i have other musical interests, which i'm sure if i discussed them on this forum, people would find hard to understand.
Finally we should remember that music is about freedom of choice and variety. Too often people have critised other's for styles of music different to their own. Please don't allow that to happen on this forum.

By john lester (213.1.132.234 - 213.1.132.234) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 12:08 pm:

Soulboy

You, me and many others have very similar views. Although, I have to admit that I am personally totally biased towards Motown...and my tastes might surprise others too!

I am not a moderator of this list and I am not sure that even the moderators woould want to discourage anyone from making a point of view. Although if you are gonna tell me you prefer Bananarama doing Nathan Jones or He Was Really Saying Something to the Motown versions by the Supremes/Velvelettes then please excuse me if I cry!

By Hitsville45 (195.93.49.163 - 195.93.49.163) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 01:45 pm:

Hiya everybody, I'm new to this forum but looking down the list of contributors I seem to be in the company of some the greatest exponents of Detroit Soul Music. In response to a posting by John Lester on April 18th with reference to the Frances Nero "Keep on loving me" being done by The Marvelettes, well I have the 10" lacquer JD 327 containing the band track called "I've been loving you" by The Marvelettes which is of course the same band track as Frances Nero. On the same 8 track lacquer are the band tracks for versions of "Take me in your arms (Rock me a little while) by The Vandellas, "Lonely Boy" by Shorty Long and others. I also have JD 337 again an 8 track lacquer which contains the incredible band track "True fine boy" by Sandra Edwards, did she ever sing the words to this anyone. Most of my lacquers have a red stamp on "Personal Copy for Mr.Berry Gordy Jnr" does anyone know the history behind this, ie did he keep a personal collection of lacquers or was this just something that stamped on it internally.
Regards
Alan Pollard

By john lester (213.1.136.101 - 213.1.136.101) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 01:59 pm:

Welcome Alan

True Fine Boy - my information "suggests" that it is a band track only and not vocalised by Saundra......more's the pity.

For good reasons, it is a track that most people seem to rave about.....in the same class as that instrumental of "On The Avenue" which has been around for years and which was "sort of" copied by the Maisonettes on their hit "Heartache Avenue"

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:20 pm:

Hello Alan

Welcome to the forum - good to see you here! You're in fine company indeed :o)

John

Re the Maisonettes - that's exactly what I thought (which is why I aded their Motown pastiche as a "bonus" track to the 'Motown Uncovered' CD, which had the "original" as track one...

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:26 pm:

Hi Alan,
Welcome to the forum. I'm interested in knowing how you came to own these lacquers.

By john lester (213.1.136.101 - 213.1.136.101) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:29 pm:

Scouring your rubbish bin Ralph!! US Brits are reknown for it....LOLOL

One of my mates has a lacquer containing tracks from Repairs!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:31 pm:

Ralph

Time to start a new thread yet???

By Hitsville45 (195.93.49.168 - 195.93.49.168) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:43 pm:

"On the Avenue" initially credited incorrectly to Holland Dozier I believe, didn't R Dean Taylor anf Jimmy Ruffin both do vocals of this track called "In the neighbourhood".

By Hitsville45 (195.93.49.168 - 195.93.49.168) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:49 pm:

Does anyway know what a "Rundown Acetate" is as I have a 10" Hitsville Sound Studio Lacquer of Ivy (spelt Ivey on the label) Hunter "Where are you" a song intended for Chris Clark I believe, recorded on 9th September 1966, Demo number Q-ICM-2617-NNDD and on it is stamped RUNDOWN ACETATE. Any help on this on.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:50 pm:

Good idea Ritchie. Time to close this mother down. THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED...PLEASE CONTINUE ON FUNK BROTHERS 3

By Hitsville45 (195.93.49.168 - 195.93.49.168) on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:54 pm:

Ralph, as John says we regularly scour your rubbish bins, a well known british expression that "one mans rubbish is another mans etc etc etc", seriously as a serious collector of Motown records and memorabilia I don't divulge my sources, nothing personal.