By soulkikker (195.18.123.98 - 195.18.123.98) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 02:10 pm:

I was wondering if anybody here could tell me a little more on Aretha's relation with Motown. She never recorded there (?), and I've heard that she and Smokey knew eachother from childhood, but that's all I know. Howcome she wasn't ever signed by Motown? It would seem so obvious. Didn't she know the right people or wasn't she interested herself maybe? How well did she or did she not get on with the Motown artists, producers, staff etc.
Love to hear your answers/opinions.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 03:26 pm:

it's quite perhaps understandable why Aretha did'nt sign with them early on, as the label had made quite a few hits but wasn't really in the 'established' mode. She signed with a major label in the early sixties (Columbia) i don't know what year this was.When the columbia contract expired in about 1966,i don't know why either side did not talk about it,or perhaps it was the fact that Altanic records just got there first.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 08:32 pm:

According to Jerry Wexler, Atlantic were very keen to sign Aretha as soon as her Columbia contract expired. Louise Bishop, a Gospel deejay in Philadelphia apparently made the first contact. "Wex" set up a meeting with Aretha and her husband and they made a "handshake deal". He first offered Aretha to Jim Stewart at Stax, but he declined, and so she was signed direct to Atlantic.

When she first signed with Columbia, Aretha moved to New York, so it's possible she'd moved out of the realm of "Detroit artists" by the time her contract was up for grabs.

BTW, according to his autobiography, Smokey first encountered "Ree" when he was six and she was just three. He recalled that she already played piano, and sang "like an angel."

By CoolJerk (62.235.20.23 - 62.235.20.23) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 09:23 pm:

I've just dug into my bookcase to throw some light on the question why Aretha and Motown never worked together.

The Aretha-biography by Leslie Gourse (admittedly, not the best one, but Mark Bego's is out of print) has an interesting paragraph:
"A few men in town were launching a new recording company called Motown. (...) Aretha, at age fifteen, wanted to record for the new company. But her father disliked the idea of her getting into the music business when she was so young. He let her play as a pianist to accompany her elder sister Erma, who started rehearsing in a Motown studio. Erma wanted to be a jazz singer, however, and so she never actually made a recording for Motown. Neither did Aretha. "All the children were very much under the influence of their father", recalls Teddy Harris, the Detroit pianist who would work as one of Aretha's long-term accompanists. The Franklin children didn't generally defy Rev. C.L. Franklin".

There's another interesting passage in Mary Wilson's autobiography:
"One of the first people Berry teamed up with was Billy Davis, an aspiring young musician who was dating his sister Gwen. Davis introduced Berry to the Reverend C.L. Franklin. Each of the reverend's daughters -Aretha, Erma and Carolyn- was known around Detroit as a great singer, but Berry and Billy were interested only in Erma. Te Reverend Franklin told Berry that he should work with Aretha, but Berry didn't care for Aretha's singing style. Erma sang on some of the demonstration records, or demos, Billy and Berry made for publishing companies and record labels".

Both these events took place around 1957. It's interesting to think about what would have happened if Berry Gordy did care for Aretha's singing style.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 09:38 pm:

We would never have had Chain Of Fools, I Say A Little Prayer, Respect, I Never Loved A Man, A Natural Woman... (need I go on?!)

Some things were meant to be.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 10:18 pm:

Just speculation, but i'd say even back in 57 berry was looking for that 'crossover' type sound. which he had found with Jackie wilson, maybe aretha was just too gospel orientated.
It's interesting that a company like columbia did not make her a success on the pop chart. They certainly had the resources to make her a success.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 10:30 pm:

I think basically, Columbia simply didn't know what to do with her. She was signed by John Hammond, who called her the "greatest voice since Billie Holiday". Columbia initially tried to market her as a Jazz/Blues/Gospel artist, issuing over a dozen albums from 1961 until 1967. After a last-ditch attempt to market Aretha as a pop singer, they finally admitted defeat, leading to her release and subsequent signing with Atlantic. I think we all agree - they knew exactly what to do!

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 05:09 am:

Eric posted a scan of Aretha's early Detroit 45 somewhere here on the forum; can't remember where though.
Graham

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.207.198 - 152.163.207.198) on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 10:17 pm:

Interesting thoughts here, but we DO know, to a degree, what Aretha might have been like on Motown since she herself was not shy about covering tunes she dug, whether live or on record. So I'd just point out that she actually released as singles, her covers of TWO Marvin and Tammi songs, "You're All I Need to Get By," and "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing," and it's too bad she did not work with Ashford and Simpson directly when they became independent producers out of New York. I think they would have done her just as well as Curtis did in that critical mid-70s period when she was trying to keep from fading from the top of the R&B charts. And hey, Aretha even covered Diana Ross -- she cut "It's My Turn" on an early Arista album, and did it pretty well, to my thinking. Although, of course, by that time, the Motown we're talking about didn't exist any more.

By HW (12.110.192.128 - 12.110.192.128) on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 10:53 pm:

While at Columbia she also covered My Guy in the mid-60s. Not much to get crazy about but there it is.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 11:15 pm:

Yes, I used to have it on a CBS LP - "Great 60s Hits" - or something similar. With all due "respect" to Aretha, it sounded like a track from one of those cheapo cover-version albums that used to haunt us.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

My understanding is that Aretha Franklin did precisely what SHE wanted to do while she was under contract to Columbia. I can't imagine that she would have been any more successful trying to do the same thing only held back by what would necessarily have been a lot less financial backing from Motown.

Don't believe for a moment that ANYBODY at Motown would have passed on the kind of music she made later on at Atlantic.

By AH (65.238.172.251 - 65.238.172.251) on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 03:21 pm:

Aretha Franklin worked with Ashford and Simpson at Columbia Records, remember "Cry Like a Baby," a Simpson/Ashford, Joshie Armstead song that was a R&B hit.

Detroit wasn't a big recording mecca when Aretha started recording. Everybody wanted to go to New York or Chicago to record. Nobody thought Motown Records would become what it did. There was no examples of a Detroiter, still living there, who recorded for a Detroit label that was making any real money or lifestyle change. People thought Berry's ex partner Billy "Roquel" Davis would have more success at Chess Records and many Detroiters followed him to Chi-town.

Since There's another Andrew I'm changing my user name to AH.