By Tony B. (195.92.168.164 - 195.92.168.164) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 12:00 am:

I read that "I'll Never Forget You" on Imperial was recorded at Motown, with a view to signing the group. Is this correct? It was a Solid Hitbound production.

By Tony B. (195.92.168.169 - 195.92.168.169) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 12:09 pm:

Was it a Solid Hitbound production in fact? Perhaps some of the people who played on it can remember.

I think what might be called The O'Jays in Detroit and their Bell recordings are the best things they've done. The recent Sundazed CD I'll Be Sweeter Tomorrow is excellent, but a full Imperial/Minit compilation CD is needed. The Stateside UK CD Working On Your Case is pretty good, but it's a bit short and seems to be a straight re-issue of the LP from 1985. No Time For You sounds like it's dubbed from disc: short clip of left channel minus right channel
Watcha reckon? Maybe the master tape has gone walkabout.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 01:07 pm:

Hi Tony

As a long-time fan of the O'Jays, I had to try and answer this one. "I'll Never Forget You" was certainly a Detroit production, the song written by Mike Terry and Jack Ashford, released in 1966 on Imperial 66162. Their first record as the O'Jays was also a Detroit recording - "Miracles", produced by Don Davis for the Daco label, and leased to Apollo.

Re the Sundazed CD, yes - I have that too. Great to hear their Bell sides without all the fake audience sounds - and in stereo too. I haven't heard the R/I of the Stateside LP as I still have the original issue, so I can't comment.

BTW, there is a 28-track CD compilation of their best Imperial/Minit material, but it's not to be recommended. It's quite possibly a semi-bootleg (Black Tulip) and more to the point, the sound quality is quite dismal. There is also a Japanese comp, (Lonely Drifter) but it's too short and too expensive.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 01:10 pm:

PS - I'm not aware of any Motown connection at all, thhough there was a Detroit connection via Don Davis. "I'll Never Forget You" as A Motown demo? Sounds like wishful thinking to me!

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.23 - 195.219.7.23) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 04:31 pm:

In 1958,5 Guys in Canton,Ohio,formed a band,called the Mascots.King records signed them up,then a d.j.named Eddie OJay,took over,they changed there name to honour eddie.OJay negotiated with King records,to release them,where eddie took them to Detroit.They met a youthful&untried Don Davies,who produced them on Dayco records,as Ritchie mentions above.This was around 1961.In 1963 they went to L.A.to record for H.B.Barnum,had a hit with Benny Spellmans/lipstick traces,and recorded an album with compositions from,Mike Terry,Jack Ashford,Pam Sawyer&Major Lance.And as far as i know,that was the detroit connection,very briefly.MEL(ANDTHENSOME).

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 05:02 pm:

Or even...

http://www.ritchie-hardin.com/soul/ojays.html

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.166 - 195.92.168.166) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 06:04 pm:

Ok Guys, according to a discography published in SHOUT #98 Sept.'74 (UK R&B mag) and jointly compiled by some very respected people, eg Kurt Mohr, Ray Topping, Bob Cattaneo etc It claims that the `I'll never forget you` session (also incuding -Pretty words / No time for you / A blowing wind) had the following personel- Jack Ashford - Director, vibes & tamborine. Ray Monette - piano. Don Davis & Dennis Coffey, guitars. Bob Babbitt - fender bass. & George McGregor, drums. and took place on 4th September 1966 in CLEVELAND!! I asked Dennis Coffey and although he remembers the session, he was vague, but did confirm that "they" did do stuff in Cleveland. All of this of course could be a clerical error and it would need someone else present at the session to confirm! "Lemon Entry" as Sherlock Holmes said to Dr Watson!! Keith

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 06:27 pm:

Keith

I do believe you're right - and this very topic is already on the Forum somewhere! At the moment, I don't have to time to search it out, but I'm sure it's there. I remember being surprised that "A Blowing Wind" came from the same session.... Looks like Holmes has a new case.

By Tyrone (192.128.134.68 - 192.128.134.68) on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 03:42 am:

I recall reading that the O'Jays were close to signing with Motown before they signed with Epic/Philly International. If I can find that piece of info I would gladly pass it on.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.16 - 195.92.194.16) on Friday, August 16, 2002 - 09:08 am:

Hey Ritchie, We ought to start a soul group...let call ourselves Watson & the Sherlocks and record on Soulville!! back to the O'jays, when you look just how close the Ohio state line is to Detroit, it seems stupid how we, (or should I say I) are happy to catagorise recording studios, radio stations, clubs & artists from the likes of Pontiac, Flint, Ann Arbor even Saginaw as Detroit related but ignore Toledo which is the same distance out as Flint. Keith

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Friday, August 16, 2002 - 02:59 pm:

Keith - I'm pleased to say, my performing days are long in the past! Re the Cleveland-or-Detroit question, I'll have to consult Soulsville's on-the-spot Cleveland correspondent.. He usually has a line on what was and wasn't recorded there.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.18 - 195.92.194.18) on Friday, August 16, 2002 - 04:56 pm:

Ritchie I met up with Mike Ritson today and he spoke to Lou Ragland (last night) who ran the Studio in question in Cleveland and claims that they DIDN'T record it there but at Motown. He also said they were on the brink of signing for Motown but he didn't say whether this was pre or post Imperial Records. Keith

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Friday, August 16, 2002 - 05:16 pm:

So, my dear Watson. The game is afoot. Neither the Baker Street Irregulars nor Captain Hamilton of the Cleveland Constabulary can assist us in this line of inquiry, so we must turn our attentions to that singular address on West Grand Boulevard. Perhaps our associates in this Northern corner of the former colonies may be able to throw some light on this matter...

By Tony B. (195.92.168.166 - 195.92.168.166) on Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 05:27 pm:

Thanks for the replies. It was reading the interviews at Soulful Kinda Music that led to my question.

Both Lou Ragland and Mike Terry say that I'll Never Forget You was recorded in Detroit. Exactly when the O'Jays were on the verge of signing with Motown is unclear, as the wording in the former's interview is ambiguous.

This should be an easy question to answer, though. Did Motown hire out its studios to other labels?

Talking of Soulful Kinda Music, is Dave Rimmer's book The Rare Soul Bible as good as Dave Godin says it is? Coincidentally, the 45 shown on the front cover is I'll Never Forget You. There are (even) better tunes that the O'Jays recorded in Detroit, IMO, but I think Mr. Rimmer was making a statement with the choice of cover disc which is probably why their next single No Time For You wasn't used! LOL

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 06:10 pm:

Hi Tony,

Re Motown renting out studio time to other labels
- they did in the early sixties as one of Barbara
Lewis' early singles was recorded there. I'd imagine this practice dropped off as the size of
Motown's roster increased, probably from around '64 or '65 onwards

By Greg C. (209.71.79.184 - 209.71.79.184) on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 04:24 am:

This is an interesting thread. I'm glad the O'Jay's never signed with Motown and instead ended up at Philadelphia International with Gamble and Huff who took them to legendary status. I'm almost certain had they gone to Motown they would have been jerked around and reduced to "second tier status" such as acts like the Spinners who had to LEAVE Motown before their full potential was reached! Ironically, it was Thom Bell who worked the Philly magic on the Spinners that took them to superstar status. Everything for a reason...

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 09:39 pm:

Greg, i agree with what you say that the o'jays would not have been succesful if they had signed with motown. around about this time (when they moved to LA) the label went into serious decline as far as singles were concerned, even the tempts left the label around about 76.
Their philly records were closer to the 'motown' spirit than anything that would be produced by motown in LA. and today those records are still held in high esteem.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.16 - 195.92.194.16) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 08:14 am:

Guys Re: `No Time For You`, I've got to say that I prefer the Commands version on Dynamics / Back Beat. Greg & Soulboy, I too feel that they COULD have been ignored some what at Motown. I was lucky enough to see a `Philly Package` tour in the UK in the 70's with the Intruders & the O'jays and they were both stunning. I was also fortunate enough to see Harold Melvin at around the same time and they were all busting a gut to emphasise how the Philly Sound was going to be bigger than Motown! Keith

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 08:28 am:

Keith

You beat me to it, mate! Much as I love the O'Jays' earlier material, they were totally eclipsed on "No Time For You" by the Commands, with some absolutely spine-tingling harmonies that I find quite irresistible.

I'm sure most folks would agree that to cover an O'Jays song - and better it - is one hell of an achievement!

By Mark Speck (65.56.218.136 - 65.56.218.136) on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 03:58 am:

And since the Commands 45 on Backbeat/Dynamic was mentioned, let us not forget the fabulous flip side "Hey It's Love". Another great double-sider!

Best,

Mark