By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

I said months ago that I'd post a listing for this label but managed to mislay my notes - I've now found them so without further ado

to save typing here are some abbreviations I've used in the credits

CC = Carl Cisco
NA = Nick Ameno
TS = Tom Shannon

MARQUEE

443 THE BUENA VISTAS (5/68)
HERE COMES DA JUDGE (NA, CC, TS)
BIG RED (NA,Kathleen Keppen, James Fazzolari)
Prod. Carl Cisco (?) arr - Mike Terry

one of a stream of "Judge" discs issued in '68
this one reached # 88 on Billboard's Hot 100

444 THE ATLANTICS
BABY I NEED YOU (Jeff Williams)
I'M SO GLAD

this white band used to back up Gino Washington
and years earlier had a release on Amon.

445 THE BUENA VISTAS (8/68)
SOUL CLAPPIN' (NA,CC,TS)
RAPPIN' (NA,CC,TS)
a minor hit - reached # 128 on Billboard's charts

446 BRITAIN'S BLACK SHEEP
TAKE A RIDE
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES
prod. Carl Cisco arr. - Theodore & Coffey
writer credits for both sides go to "Crerar -
Emmett - Reeves - Tetley - Richardson" who presumably are the guys in the group.

447 THE FANS
ROLY POLY MICKEY LOLICH (Robert Kreinar,Gary Salisbury)
ROLY POLY MICKEY LOLICH - inst. (?)

This has been mentioned in the forum before -
check the archives. Robert Kreinar is of course
esteemed bassist and forum member Bob Babbitt

448 THE FREE (10/68)
DAY OF DECISION FOR LOST SOUL BLUE
(Joe Memmer - Day Gilbert)
WHAT MAKES YOU ( )
Prod. Carl Cisco
(reissued nationally on Atco 6663, 3/69)

Haven't heard this one but it's reputed to be
an excellent psychedelic disc.


Some background info. -

I'm not sure who owned the label but I'd guess
at a possible partnership of Tom Shannon the DJ,
Carl Cisco and possibly Nick Ameno.

Cisco and Shannon had been workjing together for
a few years as their names crop up in the writer
credits for a string of releases on Swan by
instrumental group the Rockin' Rebels as well
as some Swan singles by Kathy Lynn and the Playboys who had a few minor hits. It looks as if
Carl Cisco moved to Detroit around the same time as Tom Shannon and soon after joined Motown as
part of the LaSalles on VIP as he gets a producer
credit for "This Is True" the B-side of their
Clarence Paul version of "La La La La La" in '66

Next up is the short-lived LaSalle label which I'd
guess was at least part-owned by Cisco.

LaSalle issued 4 (?) singles in '67

0069 THE UTOPIAS (05/67)
GO FOR YOURSELF (CC, Kathleen Keppen, NA)
PENANCE (NA, CC, James Fazzolari)
Prod. Carl Cisco - Nick Ameno ZTSC125052/..53

0070 LYNN TERRY
I GOT A GOOD THING ( )
unknown ( )

0071 THE BUENA VISTAS
KNOCK ON WOOD - the Eddie Floyd song ??
SUGAR ( NA, CC,TS)

0072 THE UTOPIAS (12/67)
GIRLS ARE AGAINST ME (Roger Bass)
I WANT TO GO BACK TO MY DREAM WORLD ( )
Prod. Roger Bass ZTSC126879 / ... 880

The Utopias were a trio of David Lasley and
his two sisters. Check David's own website which
has been mentioned recently.

If anyone can add the missing writer credits,
matrix numbers etc. I'd appreciate it.

This isn't as coherent as I'd like but I thought I'd throw it open so other people can throw in their comments and tell me where I've got it wrong
:-)

Davie G

By Greg (192.147.58.6 - 192.147.58.6) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 05:52 pm:

Tom Shannon was what you might call a "Silent Partner" in Marquee/LaSalle. When I met him a few years ago, he was very interesting to talk to. I had planned on doing an article about him for my short-lived fanzine, but the recording I made of our interview was accidentally destroyed.

I've also spoken with David Lasley about the Utopias. A very nice guy and very knowledgable about the 60s Detroit music scene. Unfortunately, my girlfriend made an odd comment to him one time while I was away and he's never called back!

I have the Free disc somewhere at home (at least I used to). And I have Tommy Smiley on Marquee also.

By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 08:11 pm:

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your input and for reminding me that
I forgot to list a few more Marquee releases
which had a different numbering system.

2060 BOBBY DEE
I DON'T LOVE YOU (Robert Dunson, Dale Warren,
Tamara Warren)
MY LIFE IS SO LONELY (Dunson,Warren,Warren)

Presumably Bobby Dee = Robert Dunson

2061 THE BUENA VISTAS
SOUL RANGER (NA,CC,TS)
KICK BACK (CS, R Dunson, D Warren, Eli Fountain)

2062 TOMMY SMILEY
I WON'T CRY (R Dunson, Lena Gordon, Dale Warren)
I TRIED SO HARD (R Dunson, L Gordon, D Warren)

Lena Gordon had at least one release on Chess
in the fifties,

Armen Boladian's Bridgeport Music shows up as the
publisher of some of these songs so there may be some tie-in with Westbound - possibly they
distributed Marquee. I'd guess that the second series is from late '68 or '69.

If you can find that Free single would you
please add the missing details. Thanks.

By acooolcat (211.78.28.72 - 211.78.28.72) on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 03:16 am:

Hi Davie - here are the ZTSC numbers that I know;

#443
HCTJ - 121072
BR - 121071

#445
SC - 17480
R - 127481

#447
RPML - 141188
instrumental - 141187

#2061
TSR - 141607
KB - 141608

Cheers, Graham

By Davie Gordon (213.18.222.35 - 213.18.222.35) on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 09:42 am:

Thanks Graham, that's a great help.

Here's a list of the other discs that Carl Cisco was involved in

Stork 3 THE ROCKIN' REBELS 1964
BURN,BABY,BURN (Carl Cisco,Tony DiMaria,Tom Shannon)

Swan 4140 THE ROCKIN' REBELS 1964
HULLY GULLY ROCK (Carl Cisco,Lee Marrish)

Swan 4150 THE ROCKIN' REBELS 1964
HAPPY POPCORN (Carl Cisco,Lee Marrish)


Swan 4157 JOEY & DANNY 1964
I GOT RID OF THE RATS (Carl Cisco,Tony DiMaria)


Swan 4175 KATHY LYNN AND THE PLAYBOYS 1964
ROCKIN' RED RIVER (Carl Cisco,Tony DiMaria)
ROCK CITY (N Ameno,Tony DiMaria,Paul Patteson)

Swan 4193 KATHY LYNN AND THE PLAYBOYS 1964
I GOT A GUY (Carl Cisco,Nick Ameno,Kathleen Keppen)

Swan 4209 KATHY LYNN AND THE PLAYBOYS 1965
HE'S GONNA BE MY GUY (Cisco,Ameno, Keppen)
LITTLE BABY (Cisco, Ameno, Keppen)

Swan 4248 THE ROCKIN' REBELS 1966
DONKEY TWINE (Cisco,Ameno, Tom Shannon)

Swan 4255 THE BUENA VISTAS 1966
HOT SHOT (Cisco,Ameno,Shannon)
T.N.T. (Cisco,Ameno,Shannon)

Swan 4269 THE BUENA VISTAS 1966
FILET OF SOUL (Cisco,Ameno,Shannon)
FOXY (Cisco,Ameno,Shannon)

Swan 4277 THE BUENA VISTAS 1967
SUNSET (Cisco,Ameno,Keppen)


More background info. and unwarranted assumptions
in the next thrilling episode

By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 01:29 pm:

Graham,

The ZTSC numbers for #443 don't look right -
possibly a typo in your original source.

ZTSC121...'s are from '66 which is obviously too early.

Might be ZTSC127071/ .. 72

Anorak ? .. me ???!

By Greg (192.147.58.6 - 192.147.58.6) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

One of the most interesting stories that Tom Shannon told me was that he sold Ed Wingate the studio equipment for Golden World Studios. Tom has just moved from Buffalo to the Detroit area where he took a job at CKLW in Windsor, CA and he had to close down his Buffalo studio. Ed paid cash for the equipment and had a girl (Joanne Bratton?) go to another room to bring in shoeboxes full of cash to pay for the equipment. Ed asked Tom, "Do you want to count it?". Tom said, "No".

By Flynny (213.1.133.253 - 213.1.133.253) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 07:29 pm:

Same label?
MARQUEE 694/5 THE MELLOW JACKS - MELLOW YOU DOWN/GINA BABY

By tricky (195.92.168.168 - 195.92.168.168) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:44 pm:

the atlantics on marquee 444 is whats so good about goodbye/baby i need you.a female group sound
that sounds black to me.

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 04:30 am:

Davie - I checked my notes and that's the number I have, but as you say - it's too early. I'll dig a little deeper and let you know.
Graham

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 04:35 am:

Greg - Tom appeared on a Detroit (Comcast) TV show hosted by Frank Garcia. Frank formed a Detroit historic music society a few years ago and interviewed various people from the past and I remember Tom saying the same story on the show. I'll try to see and talk to him next month as I'll be staying in Windsor for a day or so.
Graham

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 03:10 pm:

Flynny,

That's a new one on me - I've no idea if it's
the same as the Detroit label. Do you know any more about it ?

Tricky,

Thanks for the info - I haven't heard the record,
I assumed it was the same group as on Amon as
Jeff Williams is credited by BMI as the writer
on both labels. If you have the actual disc would
you mind posting the writer and producer credits
and the ZTSC numbers. Thanks.

By Flynny (213.1.129.35 - 213.1.129.35) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 05:54 pm:

'fraid not...can't recall where I got that info from as I've never owned the disc...or if I did it obviously left zero impression on me.

By recordboyusa (208.61.5.193 - 208.61.5.193) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 04:41 am:

"What Makes You" by the Free was written by Joe Memmer. The national release was actually on Atco 6662 (not 6663). It is exactly as you described it -- a very good garage/psychedelic record.

Joey of Joey & Danny was d.j. Joey Reynolds, who of course worked in both Buffalo and Detroit (as well as here in Miami and just about everywhere else!).

The Buena Vistas' history is intertwined with not only the Rockin' Rebels and Kathy Lynn, but also the Hot Toddy's. It's a pretty convoluted history. "Donkey Twine" by the Rockin' Rebels and "Hot Shot" by the Buena Vistas are pretty much the same song, but with radically different arrangements. ("Hot Shot" is much more soulful and less "rock 'n roll").

Here comes da judge!

Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com

By Greg (192.147.58.6 - 192.147.58.6) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 02:45 pm:

Jeff,

All those Buena Vista records, Rockin Rebels, etc are Tom Shannon-related things. He owned the Corsican label in Buffalo at the time and the Swan stuff was leased from him. He has quite a history in the music biz.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.102 - 195.219.7.102) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 10:51 pm:

DAVIE,SHOULDNT LA-SALLE-0069-BE THE ANTIQUES AND NOT THE UTOPIAS?MEL.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.48 - 195.219.7.48) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:46 am:

The Chaunters-New Rockin Baby/Wishin Well-La Salle 501.mel.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.14 - 195.219.7.14) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 05:53 pm:

ADD (W/SOLLY MCELROY) TO ABOVE CHANTEURS INFO.MEL.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 06:31 pm:

Jeff,

Thanks for correcting the Atco # for the Free
disc - blame it on failing eyesight !

Thanks for the info. on Joey and Danny - I'd no
idea who they were, I thought it might be
some side project of Danny and the Juniors
who were on Swan a few years earlier

The Rockin' Rebels history is INSANELY complicated
- four entirely different groups all having
releases under the one name - it must be some
sort of record - makes Parliament / Funkadelic
look simple. I'd been unable to decide whether or
not to go into the whole convoluted mess on the
forum as up until 1964 there's no Detroit
connection. If anybody does want to read more
about it check out the Cub Koda written bio. on
the Rockin' Rebels at www.allmusic.com

Mel,
Well spotted - you're right. I must've read that
post a couple of times and didn't notice my
mistake. LaSalle 0069 is by the Antiques,
another of Detroit's blue-eyed soul groups.

The LaSalle disc by The Chanteurs is a different
label - from Chicago. They also released a few
blues singles. The Chanteurs included a few
future Chi-Lites.

Keep 'em coming !

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.8 - 195.219.7.8) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 07:04 pm:

Cheers Davie,I had the Chi lites,lurking around,but wasnt sure.What about the other track,by the Shondells,Im pretty sure this is genuine?Let me know if you know different,please.MEL.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 03:36 pm:

"Knock On Wood" by the Buena Vistas (on LaSalle)
IS the Eddie Floyd song - arranged by Dale
Warren.

By Davie G (213.18.222.34 - 213.18.222.34) on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:16 pm:

Graham,

Re the matrix number for Marquee 443

Here Comes The Judge - ZTSC121070
Big Red ZTSC121071

Got these from scans of discs currently up
for auction on e-bay.

I am still puzzled - all the ZTSC numbers I've
logged around those numbers are definitely from
'66. If anyone has any theories about what this
means (if anything) I'm all ears.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:05 pm:

I wonder what made to ztsc number range jump from 107xxx to 121xxx around that time?

By Flynny (213.1.133.128 - 213.1.133.128) on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 07:13 pm:

There's a great Chanteurs disc on Vee Jay, called, "You've got a great love". Nice mid-tempo track with some great tight male group harmonies. The flip is called "The grizzly bear"...wonder if there was a dance to go along with it?! ;-)

By Greg (192.147.58.6 - 192.147.58.6) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:05 pm:

I can confirm that the Chanteurs on La Salle and Vee Jay are Chicago records and that the Chanteurs were an early configuration of the Chi Lites, when Clarence Johnson was still in the group. No connection at all with the Detroit label. The Summits on La Salle is also Chicago, I believe.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 03:59 pm:

David,

I'm not certain about this but I think Columbia
head office allocated blocks of numbers to their
regional offices in Chicago, New York and Nashville which they used for their custom
pressings. Columbia head office also had blocks of
numbers that they retained for pressings on Epic,
Date,Okeh and Columbia itself. The 110XXX numbers were
used for ZTSP pressings i.e. Columbia custom
pressings for New York area clients like Musicor,
United Artists, Veep and so on. Don't take that
number range as gospel as I'd have to check but
that's the general reason there's such a big jump in the numbers for mid-west (Chicago, Detroit
etc) discs.

If anybody's bewildered by all this apparent
trivia the ZTSC/ZTSP numbers are very useful in
determining approximate release for thousands of
mid sixties records. I've logged just over
a thousand ZTSC numbers and can usually get a
reasonable estimate of an unknown record's release
date by seeing how close it is to a known record's
ZTSC/ZTSP number

It should be noted that these are "pressing numbers" rather than actual matrix numbers, they
are allocated just prior to the record being
physically manufactured. Matrix numbers are
allocated by the label at the time of the recording session to identify the master recordings. (Columbia matrices usually start
with CO- for Columbia)

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 04:29 am:

Davie - As you say - ZTSC numbers are very useful. I am not 100% sure about them always being issued just prior to the record's release though. There is a continuous sequence of ZTSC numbers on Thelma label on 45s - that span about a year in release dates. Perhaps a label owner could buy/order a batch of numbers at a time?
Graham

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 11:44 am:

Graham,

Interesting - I hadn't picked up on that.

Maybe Columbia in Chicago ( is it Chicago ?, I've never been sure of where their mid-west base was)
occasionally allocated a block of "their" numbers to a specific client like Thelma.

It's certainly true of the ZTSP series where
blocks of numbers were allocated to United Artists
and its subsidiaries.

Someday we'll get to the bottom of this.

By David Meikle (213.122.59.171 - 213.122.59.171) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:19 pm:

Dave Flynn's site has an article on this subject which says that these pressing codes were distributed by Columbia from offices within the Fisher Building on West Grand Boulevard in Detroit.

Columbia had an office directly across from the Fisher Building.

http://www.capitolsoulclub.homestead.com/PressingPlants.html

By Joe Moorehouse (205.188.193.48 - 205.188.193.48) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 07:51 pm:

The very strange thing about the later Thelma singles is that they were assigned ZTSC numbers, but were probably not pressed at the Columbia plant in Chicago. Crazy by Emanuel Lasky and I Can't Leave You by Rose Batiste both have ZTSC numbers printed on the label and stamped in the run-out groove--but they also have the ARP script stamped in the run out groove from the American Record Plant (or whatever the P stood for) in Owosso, Michigan. And they are on vinyl, which ARP used on every record of theirs I've seen, and the ZTSC plant almost never touched. So I'm thinking these were probably pressed at ARP, though I have no idea how or why the disks bear the unmistakable signatures of two separate and unrelated plants.

Then the next series of Thelma releases (both Joe Matthews 45s, Eddie Hill, and Lasky's Don't Lead Me On) also have ZTSC numbers printed on the label, but they are scratched--not stamped--into the run-out groove. Again, the ARP script is also stamped in the run-out groove, and on these four records the paper, typeface, and typesetting are all unmistakably the work of ARP; so it seems very likely that the records were pressed there. But that still doesn't explain why they bear ZTSC numbers.

In the case of these later records, I can easily think of a couple scenarios that would have caused the ZTSC numbers to appear on ARP pressings. But in the case of the two earlier records, my best guess as to how both the ARP script stamp and the ZTSC stamp appear on the same disk seems pretty far-fetched. (Note that the ZTSC stamps on those records look just right--correct typeface, spacing, etc.--as does the ARP script.)

I know we're pretty deep into anorak esoterica here, but I'm fascinated by this stuff. Does anyone know what happened?

By Greg (192.147.58.6 - 192.147.58.6) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 08:14 pm:

I would assume that if you were shopping around for the best price for making your records, you'd be able to get the masters made at one place and have the records pressed up elsewhere. Just a guess on my part.

By Ian W (213.123.48.87 - 213.123.48.87) on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 10:04 pm:

I've also got listed:

Marquee - MQ 500 - Ronnie Gee & The "G" Strings - For Ladies Only/???

I presume I got the information off a sales list as I have a price of £2.50 marked against it. Or some discographer could be taking the mickey!

By David Meikle (213.122.32.39 - 213.122.32.39) on Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 07:45 am:

Thanks for the detail Joe.

I think it would be terrific to have someone on here that actually working in that field.

It is one big mystery.

I've always wondered why/how numbers were scratched into the run-out groove.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 12:45 pm:

Joe,

It seems that every time you start digging into
record details at this level you end up with more
questions than when you started !

As for an explanation to the Thelma pressing
mystery I'd think Greg's theory is very plausible.

Marquee 500 - I think somebody might be pulling
your leg - or maybe another part of your anatomy

There are at least two other Marquee labels,
An early 60's label in LA and a 70's label in
Las Vegas.

By acooolcat (211.78.28.80 - 211.78.28.80) on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 08:23 am:

Davie - Thanks for the ZTSC numbers on Marquee 443.
I'm not sure how mine were a little out.
As you infer - these numbers appear to be from 1966, yet the 45 seems to have been released in 1968. Weird.
Graham

By Andy Rix (195.93.49.174 - 195.93.49.174) on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 08:46 am:

The voice on 'Here comes da judge' is Popcorn Wylie

Kathy Lynn, Kathleen Keppen & Lynn Terry are all the same person .... she is Nick Ameno's wife.

Kathy Lynn & the Playboys, The Antiques & the La Salles on VIP are all the same group.

I have a pic of Lynn Terry on a 'Motown recording Artist' promo shot .... I don't think she ever recorded solo tho.

She cut a 45 as Lynn Terry on Rust also.

If anybody is desperate to talk to Nick or Kathy I can provide contact info

Andy